Sorry for the potentially silly question, but I am new to pathfinder and have never played games like this before September. I have looked a few different places online, but many people seem to say different things about this.
I am currently playing with friends and have a level 4 raven familiar that I am thinking of casting awaken on primarily to fit into the story I have created for the familiar. Were I to cast awaken on the familiar, here are the following questions I have:
-What adjustments do I make to the ravens stats?
-I have read that it is no longer a companion and would be a cohort. Do I need the leadership feat for this to work or does it just automatically apply?
-I read that it would now take class levels...does that mean I would just advance it as I would a PC when it levels?
Again, sorry if this is a silly question, I am just not sure how to manage this if I end up making this change.
Thanks everyone!
Casting that spell on your familiar makes it no longer a familiar, which kind of invalidates your questions. (Your GM may allow it though, and if so, then, it should get the effects of the spell, minus the HD gain in my opinion.) As GM, I would allow it to work, minus the HD gain, and it would no longer be a familiar, and depending on how you treated it before it was awakened, make use of the Leadership feat to have it as one of your followers.
Awaken
School transmutation; Level druid 5
Casting Time 24 hours
Components V, S, M (herbs and oils worth 2,000 gp), DF
Range touch
Target animal or tree touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
You awaken a tree or animal to human-like sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal's current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened). The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it. If you cast awaken again, any previously awakened creatures remain friendly to you, but they no longer undertake tasks for you unless it is in their best interests.
An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human's.
An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any). This spell does not function on an animal or plant with an Intelligence greater than 2.
I am afraid I may have been unclear. My apologies for that. I knew it would no longer be a familiar and that is why I asked about the cohort thing. Is it true that casting this on my raven would make it a cohort? If so, can it remain with me as a helper (and would I need the leadership feat)?
1. Start with the regular Bestiary raven. Then apply the modifications under the awaken spell (magical beast, two extra hit dice, roll an Intelligence score, adjust Charisma, and so on).
2. An awakened familiar can no longer serve as a familiar in the mechanical sense. The wizard and raven no longer gains the usual benefits from the familiar class ability. For example, the wizard no longer gains a +3 bonus to his appraise check, and the raven no longer has the extra natural armor or hit points and cannot deliver its former master's touch spells. The raven will serve you to the best of its ability so long as you do not awaken another creature; if you do, the GM can decide whether the raven still wants to be with you. (If you treated it well, it probably will.) In either case, it won't be a cohort unless you take the Leadership feat.
3. Anything with sufficient Intelligence can take class levels, though most non-awakened creatures do not. If you take Leadership, though, class levels are the recommended advancement method for a monstrous cohort. This would be in addition to the hit dice it gets for being a raven and those it gets for being awakened. It won't be powerful, but it might be interesting.
You can, of course, take on another familiar after this process, but if you take the raven as a cohort using Leadership, your Leadership score will incur a penalty for having a familiar. Because of this, you might be better served retraining your arcane bond so that you use a bonded item instead.
(Edit: Clarified some stuff re: awaken.)
In the text of the spell it states "This spell does not function on an animal or plant with an Intelligence greater than 2" so if you cast it on a familiar nothing would happen. A base familiar starts off with Int of 6.
that makes sense blahpers...thanks for the info!
In the text of the spell it states "This spell does not function on an animal or plant with an Intelligence greater than 2" so if you cast it on a familiar nothing would happen. A base familiar starts off with Int of 6.
You can simply release the familiar first, reverting it to its natural state.
that was my plan actually since i know my int was higher than 2. thanks for confirming that is possible for me!
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that makes sense blahpers...thanks for the info!
Any time! This stuff is of great interest to me as my goblin gunslinger has a line item in his will that his beloved boar steed be awakened (and reincarnated, if necessary) in the event of the gunslinger's demise.
Ha! That is amazing!
that was my plan actually since i know my int was higher than 2. thanks for confirming that is possible for me!
If you freed it and allowed it to return to its natural state then it wouldn't be any different than casting awaken on any other normal animal and will lose all the familiar abilities.
totally get that...hence me trying to find out what abilities it will have.
gotcha
although it may seem like an odd choice, it is primarily for story reasons...the group i play with are all new and having a lot of fun writing short (1-2) page stories about our characters back story, development, and adventures every now and then. this change would help my characters evolution.
i do appreciate the feedback though.
for story reasons with my characters development, i am likely going to move towards a bonded object (a new weapon) he received while beginning to realize his destiny. with that being the case, i was just going to release to companion, but i wanted to keep him in the story (non playable of course) from here. this is important for my character as the familiar is the reincarnated soul of an old warrior who is basically serving as a mentor to my PC (hence selecting raven, for the supernatural ability to communicate with each other). if at all possible, the familiar getting awakened was going to serve two purposes:
1.) be a story element that allowed him to be rewarded for his service to my PC.
2.) give me working knowledge of another spell as i continue to learn how to play the game (with an eye towards DMing down the line).
so if i am unable to, no big deal. if i can, i would love to especially since reading about the potential for him to stick around as a cohort. will def check with my DM on this though.
I am a little curious what you guys would have to say about 'Awaken' used on an Improved Familiar. Since share spells allows you to use spells on your familiar even if they don't normally affect things of that 'type', would it be possible to cast Awaken on an Improved Familiar?
Nearly all the Improved familiars have more than 2 INT to begin with for one, so you wouldn't actually be giving it more intelligence, but I can see the potential of it being useful with the increase in charisma or real HD.
So what would be the verdict on that?
On one hand, if you're really being a rule lawyer the text of 'Awaken' says that 'An awakened animal can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount', it doesn't say anything about an outsider or some other Improved Familiar that had it cast of them with 'share spells' being unable to continue being a familiar.
On the other hand, it seems a little against the spirit of what the spell was intended for.
So, what are your thoughts on this? I'm relatively new to the game as well and I'm not sure if this is something that could be legit or not.
I am a little curious what you guys would have to say about 'Awaken' used on an Improved Familiar. Since share spells allows you to use spells on your familiar even if they don't normally affect things of that 'type', would it be possible to cast Awaken on an Improved Familiar?
Nearly all the Improved familiars have more than 2 INT to begin with for one, so you wouldn't actually be giving it more intelligence, but I can see the potential of it being useful with the increase in charisma or real HD.
So what would be the verdict on that?
On one hand, if you're really being a rule lawyer the text of 'Awaken' says that 'An awakened animal can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount', it doesn't say anything about an outsider or some other Improved Familiar that had it cast of them with 'share spells' being unable to continue being a familiar.
On the other hand, it seems a little against the spirit of what the spell was intended for.
So, what are your thoughts on this? I'm relatively new to the game as well and I'm not sure if this is something that could be legit or not.
Share Spells: The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
Awaken
Target animal or tree touched
Share spells doesn't let awaken work
I am a little curious what you guys would have to say about 'Awaken' used on an Improved Familiar. Since share spells allows you to use spells on your familiar even if they don't normally affect things of that 'type', would it be possible to cast Awaken on an Improved Familiar?
Nearly all the Improved familiars have more than 2 INT to begin with for one, so you wouldn't actually be giving it more intelligence, but I can see the potential of it being useful with the increase in charisma or real HD.
So what would be the verdict on that?
On one hand, if you're really being a rule lawyer the text of 'Awaken' says that 'An awakened animal can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount', it doesn't say anything about an outsider or some other Improved Familiar that had it cast of them with 'share spells' being unable to continue being a familiar.
On the other hand, it seems a little against the spirit of what the spell was intended for.
So, what are your thoughts on this? I'm relatively new to the game as well and I'm not sure if this is something that could be legit or not.
Share Spells: The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
Awaken
Target animal or tree touchedShare spells doesn't let awaken work
A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type
The above aspect of share spells allows spells that do not normally affect creatures of that type to be effected by spells through 'share spells'.
For instance, you could use enlarge person on your familiar even though it normally wouldn't effect that creature type.
See http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pvzg?Share-Spells-w-Familiar-Enlarge-Person for confirmation. So, the original question I asked still stands
Except that bit ignores the bit I boldfaced.
1. You can cast spells on your familiar that are normally restricted to you.
2. These spells normally restricted to "you" are not required to match type.
The ability is called "Share Spells" because it is what lets you cast spells on your familiar that normally apply only to "you". The second sentence is a modifier to the first, it is not an either or.
That three post thread is not an FAQ answer. It does not take into account the portion of the description I pointed out and it omitted. It omits the relevant portion of the ability description.
Awaken isn't a "You" target. Also, the spell specifically says no.
Except that bit ignores the bit I boldfaced.
1. You can cast spells on your familiar that are normally restricted to you.
2. These spells normally restricted to "you" are not required to match type.The ability is called "Share Spells" because it is what lets you cast spells on your familiar that normally apply only to "you". The second sentence is a modifier to the first, it is not an either or.
That three post thread is not an FAQ answer. It does not take into account the portion of the description I pointed out and it omitted. It omits the relevant portion of the ability description.
"Share Spells: The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast)."
That doesn't seem to be a modifier. They seem like two separate, independent sentences, neither of which gives any indication that it's supposed to be 'modifying' the other. Maybe that's what it is in 3.5 or something but I've never played a game in 3.5. Can you point me to a FAQ that supports your claim?
I'm not debating the 'awaken' thing by the way, that was a long shot, but by that text it isn't at all clear why something like 'enlarge person' couldn't be applied to a familiar.
It appears we are at an impasse.
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So, perhaps this needs an FAQ in the form of a question.
share spells is as follows:
Share Spells: The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
So...
1. If a spell is normally only target "you" it can be used by a wizard on his familiar.
2. If a spell is normally target "you" and does not normally affect creature's of the familiar's type, it can be used by a wizard on his familiar.
But, do the two sentences work independently?
If a spell does not target "you", does share spells allow a wizard to successfully cast a spell on his familiar that normally does not work on the familiar's type?
The awaken spell specifically forbids functioning on animals of intelligence greater than 2. Although you can cast a spell targeting an animal on your familiar, this spell doesn't affect the familiar for reasons other than their type, therefore share spells doesn't get around that restriction.
What spells are there with both a target of "You" and a type restriction? The modifier interpretation prevents spells like enlarge person from working, as they do not have a target of "You".
What spells are there with both a target of "You" and a type restriction? The modifier interpretation prevents spells like enlarge person from working, as they do not have a target of "You".
sentence one: moot question, appears to argue preemptive rules don't/can't exist.
sentence two: exactly.
Otherwise: spells such as "rapid repair" (for constructs) work also as well as the often mentioned "enlarge person"
Why is this even a discussion
A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.
Since awaken can only target trees and animals the familiar isn't a valid target. Or is your character a druid? (in which case it would actually be possible because of share spells)
EDIT: Ninja'd
What spells are there with both a target of "You" and a type restriction? The modifier interpretation prevents spells like enlarge person from working, as they do not have a target of "You".sentence one: moot question, appears to argue preemptive rules don't/can't exist.
Rather than explain this, I'll just FAQ your post.
Since the raven is in it's natural form, I would allow if to cast spells with somatic components by flapping its wings in an arcane fashion, same as any other unusual creature with spell casting ability. YMMV, and PFS would likely ruin your day on that one. Material components would be a greater concern, so a feat is likely in order for that.
I like the idea of a bird bard! Witch would be another good one because Evil Eye and Cackle are just that good. The raven could have a raven familiar....