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Say my magus casts Elemental Touch in one round and then Chill Touch the next. The former grants him a touch attack, the latter a couple of touch spell charges.
If I now make the free touch attack from the Chill Touch spell and hit, do I deal both Chill Touch and Elemental Touch damage?
It is clear that Elemental Touch damage is added to unarmed strikes. But does it add to other touch attacks, too?
harzerkatze wrote: Say my magus casts Elemental Touch in one round and then Chill Touch the next. The first spell's charge dissipates the moment the second is cast. So.. no dice.
Elemental Touch isn't a touch spell. It has a range of Personal so it is more accurately considered a personal buff that grants you the effect of a special touch attack. Thus, it cannot be used with spellstrike since it isn't a touch spell and you don't get the free touch as part of casting, but it also doesn't dissipate when casting another spell either. You can always deliver a touch attack (touch spell or otherwise) via Unarmed Strike or Natural Attack so one of those could deliver the effect of both touches, but not through a manufactured weapon.
Kazaan wrote: Elemental Touch isn't a touch spell. It has a range of Personal so it is more accurately considered a personal buff that grants you the effect of a special touch attack. Thus, it cannot be used with spellstrike since it isn't a touch spell and you don't get the free touch as part of casting, but it also doesn't dissipate when casting another spell either. You can always deliver a touch attack (touch spell or otherwise) via Unarmed Strike or Natural Attack so one of those could deliver the effect of both touches, but not through a manufactured weapon. Yes, all that is clear. But what about my question?
Elemental Touch wrote: Choose an energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You gain a melee touch attack causing 1d6 points of damage of that energy type, along with a special effect described below. You also deal energy damage and the related special effect when you attack with your hands using an unarmed strike, a single claw, or a single slam attack. This bonus damage can never apply to multiple weapons. Chill Touch wrote: A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level. It's a little bit murky, but I think it's likely you get both.
Elemental Touch specifically calls out "gaining a touch a attack" to indicate that it is an armed attack you are making (on top of clarifying that it can be resolved on touch AC) for the duration of the spell.
Chill touch merely adds onto this.
This is only murky if you interpret each as a separate "touch weapon", implying that the player has to choose which one he's attacking with.
I see no explicit rules basis for this interpretation. (In fact I don't even think PFRPG includes the term "touch weapon" to be able to differentiate - not to be confused with the "ghost touch" weapon property...)
Touch Attacks wrote: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.
Yes touch effects stack if you can get all of them going.
Archaeik wrote: It's a little bit murky, but I think it's likely you get both.
Elemental Touch specifically calls out "gaining a touch a attack" to indicate that it is an armed attack you are making (on top of clarifying that it can be resolved on touch AC) for the duration of the spell.
Chill touch merely adds onto this.
Very nice, thanks!
A related question: As I gain a melee touch attack from Elemental Touch, if my BAB is 6 or higher, can I make two touch attacks with it the following rounds, treating it like a weapon attack that targets touch AC, or just one?
harzerkatze wrote: Archaeik wrote: It's a little bit murky, but I think it's likely you get both.
Elemental Touch specifically calls out "gaining a touch a attack" to indicate that it is an armed attack you are making (on top of clarifying that it can be resolved on touch AC) for the duration of the spell.
Chill touch merely adds onto this.
Very nice, thanks!
A related question: As I gain a melee touch attack from Elemental Touch, if my BAB is 6 or higher, can I make two touch attacks with it the following rounds, treating it like a weapon attack that targets touch AC, or just one? This was the best discussion I found on it.
Here is the relevant text from the PRD
Touch Attacks: wrote: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally. Holding the Charge: wrote: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. I showed where it says they are armed attacks; as such, they should be subject to iterative rules.
However, the rules for touching friendly targets clearly indicate that a single touch is supposed to take a standard action.
Further, (per the thread I posted), this is complicated by many monsters who have supernatural touch attacks that are treated as natural weapons (without naming them explicitly as natural weapons). (This distinction is important because it means they get to make those attacks in addition to their iteratives, but never in place of.)
If there has been an official ruling as to how PC/humanoid touch attacks are supposed to be handled, I couldn't find it. (I've been away from the boards for awhile, so I'm not 100% back in the loop yet)
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