Goblin Squad Member
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I know a lot of us are bringing in influences from a lot of other games. I'm interested to know which combat system's people are being influnced by, and are most in favor of.
To be clear I am not talking about PvP restrictions, Open Worldness, Crafting, or anything other than the combat basics such as aiming, ability selection, ability styles etc.
I would say Guild Wars (The original). I've never played another game with as unique of roles, or ability to completely customize your character.
Two things note-ably absent from Guild Wars are tanks / a threat mechanic and stuns. However the game still works very well without them by giving their beefier characters more offensive/support capabilities and replacing stuns with a wide array of other interrupts and debuffs such as blindness or my personal favorite: backfire.
I think it's a system that bears looking at when creating the abilities for PFO. The only thing I would change is I'd like to see targeting work more like Mass Effect of Star Wars Battlefront II.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I cannot remember Guild Wars specifically, but it was very much a tab-target ability slotting game. I have been playing Guild Wars 2 lately and have been enjoying it quite a bit. The dodge/evasion mechanic adds a nice degree of dynamic mobility to avoid attacks without it turning into a twitch game. That being said, I haven't played any of the PvP elements and cannot speak to how well it works there.
I would like to avoid the models where people try to run constant circles around their foe to break front-facing targeting. It is just so unrealistic that someone would do that in real life combat. Slow circling, sure, but running circles around a foe that is already facing you to get behind them is going to tire you out through exertion of extra energy. So when it happens in a game, it just feels cheesy. Mounted combat against unmounted foes is different though - as that mobility is the purpose behind the mount.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I loved the stamina and melee combat of city of heroes. Plenty of varity in how you could beat someone into a bloody pulp, and a great mix of burst vs dps and single target vs aoe.
But it's PVP mechanics were very flawed. It's probably best not to emulate it here, but I still miss Death Adder, my first level 50 in the game, a Dark Melee/Super Reflexes scrapper. Nothing really compares to being able to pull a leeroy Jenkins and win.
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Dark Age of Camelot's crowd control system was amazing - I liked a lot of things about DAoC actually. WoW's response time is certainly noteworthy. Hmmm... I agree with the OP on Guild Wars though I didn't like how "cool downs" worked.
A fellow DAoC'er in the haus... Finally. Yea, and I'm going to second this, mimic the DAoC system for combat and you're good to go.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've dabbled in a few mmorpgs. It's mainly the context that makes PvP combat fun for me. Eg ambush and tactics and escape routes and situational awareness and basically using intel to work out if fighting or running or waiting are the best decisions.
I also love the times you have a few favourite nemesis players who stop and attack you and viva-versa whenever your paths/blades cross! Those are some of the best combats knowing there's players out there breathing down your back if you are not alert or visa-versa making a beeline through a battle to finish off such players when teu are distracted in another combat.
Some of the team stuff has been good as well.
I missed Guild Wars but I think in general how players could out think others was what made that game though "build wars" seems a balance issue. Hopefully balance won't be so big a deal and context will in PFO.
People would rave and wax lyrical about Guild Wars Mesmers being able to spike other players and forcing them to think differently.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Age of Conan's combat system (combo system, like stringing together moves in a macro) would be good if character movement is dependent on stamina. DDO's combat system has some elements that could integrate nicely if adapted (tab targeting but free movement, circle-strafing to gain a flank advantage).
I remember being comfortable with the DAoC but off-hand I'm not recalling the specifics of what I liked about it: perhaps someone would refresh my memory with some specifics?
Age of Conan's combat system would be good if character movement is dependent on stamina. DDO's combat system has some elements that could integrate nicely. I remember being comfortable with the DAoC but off-hand I'm not recalling the specifics of what I liked about it: perhaps someone would refresh my memory with some specifics?
The CC was really good, and just the general pace and flow of combat. I agree it's hard to put your fingers on the specifics, you just kind of have to play it to know.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I loved the crowd control aspects of Dark Age of Camelot as far as PvE combat. I don't know that those would translate well for PvP and while I would like them there for PvE they should probably be "greyed out" for PvP.
As far as PvP combat I'd be happy with something akin to one of Lee's past games in Fallen Earth.
I would prefer something smooth like WoW, Rift, ArcheAge or WAR. While I loved aspects of DAoC or Guild Wars as described in the OP the controls and skill usage struck me as slow and non responsive.
I played WoW, Rift, and DAoC, and I can say that I actually enjoyed the combat system in all of them (though Rift just took WoW's combat sysem). While the PvP systems in WoW and Rift were a joke, the actual PvP combat itself was pretty damn good. I particularly liked my Ice Mage in WoW. ;-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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DAoC was my first MMO and every PvP structure I tried in other games pale before it, IMO. There are no experiences that come even close to roaming Old Emain with 7 other people.
Just to clarify my previous statement I answered regarding all combat that is present in the game, not just PvP. The first thing that I have played competitively was Quake 3 Arena so I developed a certain attention to how smooth the controls feel and how well designed the visual and audio feedback is in a game. That is the reason DAoC, Path of Exile and Battlefield 3 feel a little bit off for me compared with WoW, Diablo 3 and Call of Duty ( strictly speaking only of controls and the audio/visual feedback not the overall quality of the games )
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to concur that the PvP in DAoC was the best I've seen, other than the humorous visual effects of the zergs that allowed fifty characters to occupy the same space, each /following the leader and stretching out only slightly into a train when on the move.
GW2 came pretty close to reproducing that experience except that while I was playing GW2 great guild/nation rivalries had not had time to build up a tradition, and player involvement was more a matter of individual initiative than large player organization. The social system was more atomized and less coherent.
If it turns out that PFO's formation combat system involves a significant advance on the zerg/blob model it could be quite good. My vision is that the group is organized like a squad, squads forming platoons, platoons forming companies, companies battalions and so on up into divisions and armies then PFO might well be onto something.
If overland travel can be mechanized to strategic-travel in columns and deploy tactically line abreast, in echelon, or phalanx it could play out like a wargamer's dream come true. Defensive formations, engagement formations, and offensive formations would look and work differently.
If, in the manner of /follow, the player's movements might automatically cause his toon to gravitate toward his proper position in the formation (until the player chaotically broke formation) such that his only concern was managing his quickbar attacks and defenses while the sergeant focused on the formation's movements it could work quite well.
Lawful characters movement keys might enable facing shifts within formation where chaotic characters would break ranks.
The advantages of the Lawful disciplines might even arise innately, rather than having to be mechanically coded, because those who 'hold the line' will prove superior to chaotic blobs of skirmishers who will break ranks at every turn, variously charging like Leeroy Jenkins or falling back just when that is the worst thing to do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some thoughts on what might work well and be doable for early enrollment.
Quickbar set up: The Secret World, full freedom to choose among the skills you have trained, 10-12 abilities (per weapon). Let the players decide how they want to play their character.
"Auto-attack": Guild War 2, if there is going to be spammable attack(s), let each player choose if and which ability they want to spam once attacking has been initiated.
Skill queue: Rift, let the players choose if they want to use a skill queue and how long a skill queue they want to use.
Movement & ability use: Dungeon and Dragons Online, if my memory servers me correctly, you could move while executing an ability with a cast time, but movement would only be at half the normal speed and with the casting speed reduced to half.
A lot of cool stuff like the fellowship maneuvers from LOTRO and combo attacks from Guild Wars 2 are probably outside the reasonable scope for the open enrollment.
Overall I just hope that however the combat system is implemented, it is fairly smooth and allows us to fight our opponents instead of the UI.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a tough one for me. The best combat in a video game (not mmorpg) hands down is Bloodline Champions. The game is balanced so carefully, with attention to detail, focusing on players maximizing their skill, and mostly aimed based abilities to defeat the other team and secure a win. It's like a symphony watching a high level game of Bloodline Champions, complex and beautiful.
However, making an MMORPG so twitch based does not work currently with how responsive a game can get. With potentially hundreds of people in the same place, that combat becomes bogged down, slow and the aim-based skills based on twitch responses melt down.
On the other end of this are turn based games, where every round consists of a few seconds, and every move is tactical, leading to a much slower, but cerebrally satisfying combat. A good example of this is The Banner Saga Factions, which is an excellent turn based multiplayer game. This combat is perhaps the most easy to balance and make fair, but it loses alot of people who want to feel more like they're in the action. Also, not being in real time breaks from active nature of persistent worlds, which forces those in combat to enter a time bubble where the combat happens, which in real time would take a few minuets, then the combatents are rejoined with the real time world, which has advanced farther ahead.
Neither of these extremes hit the common denominator, which is your typical tab targeting system with cooldowns. The active nature of the combat helps keep people engaged, while the cooldowns add a strategic element, requiring far less twitch. Of the games I've played that use this system, the best implementation I've experienced was Guild Wars 2 with the popular 'Combat Mod', which makes Guild Wars 2's combat more like the Neverwinter MMORPG, but superior to it in terms of balance and responsiveness.
If you ask me what combat system I would personally like to have in an MMORPG if I could pick anything... say a game being developed by a company that strongly favors community imput when it comes to developing game features... I have to go with one extreme or the other. I enjoy games very much either turn based or real time with aim and skill based twitch combat. As I've said above, only one of these is currently viable, which is the turn based route, but that seems to turn off a sizable portion of the audience who want to action to be more... action-ey. From the videos released in the last couple weeks, and from what I understand from what I've read, PFO is going towards the hybrid model that GW2 uses. While I have no problems with this, my preference are on other combat systems that are not as popular. However, there does seem to be an interesting theme of innovation in the combat system with keywords and how they apply to abilities, so perhaps this new twist can add enough flavor to the tab targeting pattern to make it exciting for PFO. Keeping an open mind, I am hopeful that Goblinworks can assemble an interesting combat pattern that gives new and veteran MMORPG players alike something to enjoy.
I would prefer something in between the original Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2. The overall system of Guild Wars seems similar to that of the impression I get so far for Pathfinder Online, and Guild Wars 2 has the aspects to combat that I see as the natural evolution for MMO combat. The three things I want from Guild Wars 2 are pretty simple.
1.) A focus on movement and positioning. Not necessarily twitch, but instead how you would imagine combat as actually being. You don't just sit there and take shots while dealing them out; you actively avoid stepping in AoE and actively try to dodge and block attacks. In addition, having most abilities allowing movement instead of locking you into one place. Its fine to use that as a balance mechanic for certain abilities though.
2.) Abilities being significant.
I should elaborate on this. Here's an example from Guild Wars 2. If you're playing as a Guardian (like a Paladin) with a Hammer, you get these 5 weapon abilities:
#1.) A basic chain attack that ends in a persistent AoE. The AoE damage enemies and grants you and allies a buff that reduces damage taken by 33% while they are in the circle. This basically takes the place of what most games would use 4-6 abilities for; the ones you sit there and spam for your rotation.
#2.) A melee AoE attack. However, it also creates additional effects if used in a persistent AoE circle (like the first ability gives). The additional effect for the first ability is a buff that sends damage back to the attacker when hit. So you use ability #1 and give allies the damage resistance buff, then use #2 and make it so that hitting your allies deals damage back.
#3.) A projectile that travels on the ground hitting multiple enemies and snaring them for 2 seconds.
#4.) A melee swing that sends a single enemy flying backward.
#5.) A Ring of Warding that prevents enemies from crossing over it, either trapping them outside or inside of it.
So each ability here generally has multiple uses and significant effects. The only ability you would "spam" is #1 and maybe #2 when it is off cooldown if you want the extra buff or more damage. Each one (in this case) has a focus on area control. You don't lay out debuffs to simulate area denial. Instead you, quite literally, lock enemies out of an area, and if they manage to get in said area you punish them with AoEs. There's no flimsy abilities. Each one is effective, even if situational.
3.) Instead of everything being a "random chance" have abilities that literally DO that. If you want to make a tank, then give them abilities that literally block attacks rather than buffs that give a chance to do it. Same thing with dodging, and even critical hits to some extent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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3.) Instead of everything being a "random chance" have abilities that literally DO that. If you want to make a tank, then give them abilities that literally block attacks rather than buffs that give a chance to do it. Same thing with dodging, and even critical hits to some extent.
Well said. An ability that gives you 50% more block chance for 5 seconds or one that blocks the next attack within 5 seconds are the difference between night and day.
GW2 uses a mix of RNG and reliable skills, and I would like to see that in PFO as well.
WoW.
*ducks*
Did I say something wrong?!
I offer a translation:
"I want this game to die forgotten in two years or less".
Aside from that, nothing much.
I admit my MMO experience is pretty low. But I would like to see them borrow one thing:
Phantasy Star Online/Universe's non-DPS system of attacking. Also, their timed and special attacks.
I will say this: Copying WoW's cooldown system is not what kills WoW-clones.
Being like WoW is what kills WoW clones... WoW succeeded by bringing people from outside the Premium MMO space in, which is what they had to do to succeed because anyone who had anything to compare it to would realize that it's a s+#! game.
Once people have invested years into WoW, you can't expect people to leave all that behind for the same game with a few nice "tweaks".
P.S: Rifts are just annoying...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would play this game and enjoy it if it's combat system was a carbon copy of WoW because even then it wouldn't be "WoW with a few tweaks." There is more that separates the two titles than what they have in common.
Similarities:
1. They're MMO's
2. Fantasy setting
3. (Probably) Tab-targeting
Differences:
1. Player interaction as content rather than questing/raiding.
2. Non-factional PvP.
3. No mail / auction houses.
4. Territorial control.
5. Drastically reduced power-gap.
6. No grinding.
7. All gear comes from crafting.
Etc.
There are reason I would like combat to be different from WoW in different areas but the danger of becoming a "WoW-clone" is not one of them.
...their timed and special attacks.Oh dear. "Timed attacks" sounds a bit too much for my non-existent hand/eye co-ordination.
Depends on how forgiving they want to be with the timing. Basically, it means that your hits do more damage when you press the attack button again at the very end of the attack animation, before your character can return to standing.
I think some WoW stuff combat-wise would be pretty good. That was the one thing I respected about WoW. Also, they had some enjoyable classes despite the fact that there was miserably few of them.
I thoroughly enjoyed the Rogue, Druid, and particularly the Ice Mage.
As far as PvP on a macro level? No fuggin way... Warsong gulch and whatever candyland mini-games they concocted for casual nub masses? No thanks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The element of WoW I enjoyed was the humor. Nothing else comes to mind.
One more element than I. I found the humor to be too "try-hard" and not funny at all. Only played WOW for about 6 weeks in early 2006 after I left Star Wars Galaxies in November 2005(NGE). After I left WoW I never once had even the smallest desire to go back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is really hard so I'll just say the MMO's I've enjoyed playing solo or team PvP in the most. City of Heroes, Age of Conan, Champions Online, Guild Wars 2.
Looking at it, I think some of the reasons I've enjoyed PvP in these games is the variety of builds a person can make and that it's not all instant kill. They tend to take some player skill.
When it comes to large scale siege warfare PvP however the dynamic changes and I choose Age of Conan and Shadowbane as my top. It wasn't just about taking out the other players but about using siege weapons, assigning different teams to certain tasks, planning out strategies that are only possible with a large number of players. It's glorious. Sieges are like high tier PvE raids but you don't know the boss strat. Anything can happen.
(I recently took one of those "what character are you" quizzes and came out True Neutral but I still love me some Chaos. Nothing says chaos like a large scale battle!)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The element of WoW I enjoyed was the humor. Nothing else comes to mind.One more element than I. I found the humor to be too "try-hard" and not funny at all. Only played WOW for about 6 weeks in early 2006 after I left Star Wars Galaxies in November 2005(NGE). After I left WoW I never once had even the smallest desire to go back.
For me humor is like music: I enjoy almost all of it and detest very little.
The types I detest would be disallowed by present company.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My favorite game for a lot reasons was DAoC. The combat system included reactionary combos, position, and poisons. PvP combat included rams, catapults, trebuchets, and climbable walls for stealthers.
[edit] The one thing I didn't like about it was the sleep and stuns. I had a gank group for PvP, we AoE stunned, spammed PBAoE( point-blank area of effect) every one to death in about 5 secs. Speed buff, AoE CCer, group heals, 2 PBAoE casters and gone in 6 seconds. Hit and run.
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My favorite game for a lot reasons was DAoC...
I'm in love. <3
Lol, srysly tho, there has been a LOT of requests for DAoC-style combat. It's widely considered the best PvP system of all time, both on a macro (large scale systems AKA RvR) and micro level ("we have to go in there, hand to hand")
I don't think any MMORPG has had a good combat system. I've never played an MMORPG because of its sweet combat, and most people I've known who played MMORPGs with me have had other games they switch to for actual entertaining fighting mechanics.
Tab-targeting and homing attacks don't make for very exciting combat. A few games have tried getting away from that, but have never had as polished systems as you find in non-MMORPGs or have simply failed in being good at the actual MMORPG part.
For good combat I would look at games like War of the Roses, Pirates, Vikings and Knights 2, Chivalry, and any other titles that rely solely on combat to draw players in and maintain their interest. People don't play WoW for 5 years because it's amazingly fun to press [TAB][1][1][1][2][1][3].
You should try Call of Duty.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My primary MMO experience comes from Champions Online and City of Heroes. As a result I like a lot of mobility and platforming in my MMO's, although I would expect less of both in PFO based on my experiences with other fantasy MMO's.
The only fantasy online game I've done a reasonable amount of PvP in was the first Guild Wars, which seems to be a popular choice from what I've read here.
I've done a bit of WoW (only up to level 30) but it didn't really do it for me. I'm not a fan of systems that require exact behavior; unless the Tank is doing X at exactly the right time and has such and such level gear the mission *will* fail. It seems to confuse "challenging" with "tedious and stressful". (Not just in WoW specifically, it's something I see repeated in a lot of games. Just picking on the big target here).
I really prefer games that play more loose and reward unexpected behavior over mathematical precision. That's something I've enjoyed about the PF tabletop. The party can get along just fine without everyone being shoved into specific roles as long as the players are cooperative and creative.
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I don't think any MMORPG has had a good combat system. I've never played an MMORPG because of its sweet combat, and most people I've known who played MMORPGs with me have had other games they switch to for actual entertaining fighting mechanics.
Tab-targeting and homing attacks don't make for very exciting combat. A few games have tried getting away from that, but have never had as polished systems as you find in non-MMORPGs or have simply failed in being good at the actual MMORPG part.
For good combat I would look at games like War of the Roses, Pirates, Vikings and Knights 2, Chivalry, and any other titles that rely solely on combat to draw players in and maintain their interest. People don't play WoW for 5 years because it's amazingly fun to press [TAB][1][1][1][2][1][3].
I'll throw out there, that I actually did play the original Guild Wars for the combat. It wasn't as reflex intensive as a lot of good games, but it appealed to me in very much the same way as Magic The Gathering and Table Tops. It was extremely fun to customize your build and find creative ways to get the edge you need to win. Then learn your strengths and weaknesses through playing the build and continually try to improve upon it based on what you learn.
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DAoC.
Want to zerg? No problem. Find the army and join up. You'll fight open field and in sieges.
Want to run as an 8man? As long as you are a good team player with TS/Vent, you can find a group. Great open-field stuff and, if you play well, you can beat small armies with your group.
Want to small-man? As long as you have speed and CC, it can be a lot of fun. The challenge of finding people to kill and getting away from the ones you can't never grew old for me.
Want to solo? You can do that too. Not my cup of tea but a lot of classes could do it if the player knew his business.