So I'm seeing a lot of threads lately of "Describe your favorite...best...worst..." etc. I'm asking about peoples' experiences with megadungeons. Please post your reflections on these kinds of games; your anecdotes are welcome.
I dont like them much. I find they get really tedious after a while. It becomes a real chore to keep track of where you are, where you've been and where you are going. No one in my group has ever been particularly predisposed to mapping, so it gets old really fast trying to figure out simply which direction to turn. My group has essentially settled on always going left, doing what amounts to a breadthfirst search of the dungeon (often not conducive to the way it was laid out).
Then there are elements mentioned by thenobledrake. Puzzles can be fun when done right, but sooooo very rarely are they done where the people actually have the information and experience to solve htem. Traps and locked doors are an excersize in everyone go for a smoke/bio break while the rogue rolls some dice. The also quickly turn into slog fests, you go from room to room dealing with encounters and traps, then find a spot to hold up and rest, rinse and repeat. I dont find dungeons particularly conducive to roleplaying or even a descent story. Any roleplaying that could be done in a dungeon would be done better in a different setting in my opinion.
The closest I came to one was the first chapter of Shackled City. It started to get old after a while. I like the AP, but I did not care for that dungeon after the 3rd session.
I've run dungeonaday for about 4 years. It has lots of side treks out of the dungeon and interesting events in town. So, it's fun and hasn't gotten old. I recommend it.
My experience with megadungeons is nonexistant. I have never done a dungeoncrawl or a megadungeon. And it seems the consensus is dungeoncrawls/megadungeons are crap.
Always wanted to try one, though.
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I've played a decent number of mega-dungeons across most of the editions of D&D.
Overall I'd say experiences have been mixed. I still enjoy T1-4 even though portions of the Temple of Elemental Evil were underwhelming.
Other classic dungeon crawls had a variety of issue which limited my enjoyment especially if they were highly antagonistic between Players and GM.
2e had some of the better megadungeons in my personal experience as this represented in some ways the high point of dungeon design that was intended to be more organic such as the dragon mountain with a bunch of kobold tribes living symbotically with a red dragon.
3.x saw a return of the megadungeon in a big way but many of them were distinctly underwhelming especially the Return to ToEE and some of the other 3.0 megadungeons (Rappan Athuk, etc). AEG's mega-mega dungeon that basically was designed to have the PC crawl through the entire MM worth of monsters kinda marked a point in which megadungeons were clearly being designed around gamist concerns rather than narrative or simulationist consistency.
Personally I still like the occassional dungeon crawl but I prefer it to be more geared towards a maximum of 3-4 sessions a dungeon rather than 10-12 sessions a dungeon.
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2e had some of the better megadungeons in my personal experience as this represented in some ways the high point of dungeon design that was intended to be more organic such as the dragon mountain with a bunch of kobold tribes living symbotically with a red dragon.
Perhaps it was more organic, but it was also monotonous as hell. From what I remember, until you got to the dragon, almost everything was a kobold.
F--k verisimilitude, make the dungeon interesting.
2e had some of the better megadungeons in my personal experience as this represented in some ways the high point of dungeon design that was intended to be more organic such as the dragon mountain with a bunch of kobold tribes living symbotically with a red dragon.Perhaps it was more organic, but it was also monotonous as hell. From what I remember, until you got to the dragon, almost everything was a kobold.
F--k verisimilitude, make the dungeon interesting.
Kobolds...with a megadungeon...how was it not just a slog through a massive amount of ridiculous, intense, zany and wonderful traps?
Kobolds...with a megadungeon...how was it not just a slog through a massive amount of ridiculous, intense, zany and wonderful traps?2e had some of the better megadungeons in my personal experience as this represented in some ways the high point of dungeon design that was intended to be more organic such as the dragon mountain with a bunch of kobold tribes living symbotically with a red dragon.Perhaps it was more organic, but it was also monotonous as hell. From what I remember, until you got to the dragon, almost everything was a kobold.
F--k verisimilitude, make the dungeon interesting.
If he is referring to the Dragon Mountain box set megadungeon, you had plenty of traps indeed.
I started this thread b/cause I just started a campaign around a homebrewed megadungeon. I know I have one player who really enjoys crawls/hacks, and the others are ok with whatever, so I figured I'd be fun. So far we've had one full session in the dungeon. I found it really challenging as a GM.
There are a LOT of moving parts in a giant dungeon. There's a main story (kobolds and dragons), there are underlying stories (the party's reasons for being there, minor intelligent monsters) and then elements of randomness (traps, puzzles, random monsters). Oh sure, all these normally exist in a game session, but usually they're compartmentalized. The party starts off in main story in the town, then goes off on a little mission and completes an underlying piece, and MAYBE there's a single element of randomness.
In an effort to keep things interesting and organic I am also trying to manage different intelligent monsters. So far the party hasn't attracted others with their combats, but I'm keeping an eye on that and making occasional rolls to see if they do. That's another bit of bookkeeping I need to manage, not to mention knowing what's lurking in the rooms around where the action is.
I think my players are enjoying it. So far I've gotten no complaints. I wanted to give the players a chance to rest in the dungeon, but also wanted to keep it interesting. I threw in a kobold courtesan, sort of like a lawful neutral version of the companion character from Firefly. The party sprang her from a prison and in return she brought the characters to a... ahem... hotel that rents by the hour. Here the characters had a chance to rest and recuperate.
My point is: this is the kind of game I'd love to be a player in. The players don't have a lot to do or manage, and they can knock around and nova at their leisure. If the PCs die, at least it'll be fun. But as a GM this is WAY more work than I remembered as a kid. I haven't properly megadungeoned in over a decade and I don't remember having all of this to deal with before. Hopefully it gets easier.
I played through five sections of the world's largest dungeon. My job was trap finder.
The group lost a total of seven characters before we quit due to a lack of plot. Five of those deaths were mine.
It was frustrating.
I lose interest fast in megadungeons unless there's something in the place keeping me interested. And no backstory can do that when faced with two months of slogging.
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Don't know if it counts as mega dungeon, but I have been through a couple of dungeons that took over 3 months each - it was a 2nd edition game. The GM was fantastic and we had a great time, though there was no roleplaying at all and plot was minimal. We just had fun as a group. Sometimes individual rooms could take two hours to resolve. It was something very different.
I'm usually more into the Dragons than the Dungeons in D&D. Haven't had a lot of experience with the various megadungeons, so I don't have a lot of insight to offer.
I played in a session of Ruins of Undermountain, however the game collapsed due to scheduling problems before we got a second session. I quite enjoyed being the party mapper though I had the feeling that mapping through a dungeon was tedious for everyone else not directly involved.
Right now I'm running the PCs through the Haunting of Harrowstone from the Carrion Crown AP. It's hardly a mega-dungeon but looking at it, it's the largest dungeon-like environment I've ever run as a GM.
Historically most of our campaigns have focused on urban, battlefield or overland environments with any dungeons being more like a small building with only a few rooms.
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I've always enjoyed running games set in dungeons as well as playing games where dungeon exploration was a key component. I think it helps keep the players from getting bogged down in indecision by giving them a handful of obvious choices at every literal turn. Do we go to the end of the hall and peak around the corner? Do we listen at door #1? Should the thief climb up the statue and try to pry out the gemstone eyes?
A great dungeon has great rooms, chambers that have lots of bells and whistles and buttons and levers. They should provide lots of tactical options. A great dungeon also has some sort of theme, whether that reflects the original architect of the place or its current occupants. Ideally, there are distinct themes and common elements that set different levels of the dungeon apart.
Contrary to the idea that a dungeon is strictly hack & slash it can have a lot of roleplaying opportunities (think the various factions in B4 Lost City). It can also be a mostly puzzle solving/trap avoidance experience (think S1 Tomb of Horrors).
How the PCs approach the dungeon makes a difference too. Are they seeking to find a certain NPC or monster to eliminate? Are they searching for a particular item? Are they merely exploring to see what's there? Is it just a treasure hunt? Are they inside the dungeon trying to escape? The same map looks different if you adjust the room contents and the purpose the PCs have for being there.
I've been looking into Rappan Athuk (massive dungeon) and it looks like a blast, currently running the Slumbering Tsar (lots of dungeons), which my party has been loving so far. I owned World's Largest Dungeon but never ran it, I thought it might get dull without a moving story, unless your pc's just enjoy battles.
If you add story to the mix it could really be a good one. I will say the constant attrition and no real safety of the adventure I'm running reminds me of an open dungeon and in my opinion would be preferable to my group. I guess it really depends on your group.
RotRL has dungeons in it, but nowhere like Tsar, which pales in comparison to WLD and Rappan Athuk. I think Tsar runs a happy above average if your players like difficulty hardcore.
Just to put it in perspective I've run these adventures: Red Hand of Doom, City of the Spider Queen, RotRL, Second Darkness, Kingmaker, Slumbering Tsar (approximately page 70 of 1000), and hope to run Rappan Athuk next.
If Tomb of Abysthor (originally from Necromancer Games and Pathfinderized by Frog God Games) qualifies as a megadungeon, it is fantastic. Story, different villains on different levels, shifting alliances within the dungeon: it's a joy to play.
If it's not a megadungeon, it's a big one.
For all the love Rappan Athuk gets, I think ToA is far superior.
Running Rappan Athuk right now and really enjoying it. We've gamed about once a month for a year or so and finished the Mouth of Doom side dungeon and have just gotten to the first floor of RA (the players- 6 characters- are all just 6th level). I tend to agree that any adventure can be dull without a healthy story pushing it forward, so each player has at least 1 meta-plot and there overarching meta-plot that provides the reason they're exploring this mega-dungeon. I've also already decided that if things start getting tiresome/stagnant a few levels down I’ll be either sending the guys over towards Slumbering Tsar or down to the Cyclopean Deeps, both related, but have very different flavors.
For those folks on the thread who've had positive experiences, you've said that by adding plot, story and roleplaying to the dungeon the GM or module made it fun. Can you describe HOW these elements were added? Was it that a few rooms just had story only, was it that the monstrous occupants talked instead of attacking, was there some experience that was memorable? Let me know.
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I did a bunch of looking into way to make megadungeons fun about six months ago and what I found I put to good use with Rappan Athuk. I have found that dungeons can turn into tedious slogs if the party searches every inch of every room looking for treasure or fights. It's this style of play that makes me loathe dungeons.
However, if you set it up in a series of delves, or quests or whatever you call it, it encourages the party to dive in to their objective and then get out before they die. If run like this it can be a blast. Some players might still try to do delves as a slog, looking for every bit of treasure and XP. To counter this when I ran Rappan Athuk I tweaked the XP system in that most XP came from the quests. I figured five or six quests per level and just spread out the amount of XP required to level across those quests. I then handed out 100XP for each level of the dungeon they discovered and hex of wilderness they explored topside. For encounters, they didn't get any XP from random encounters and only 30% from planned encounters. This encouraged them to explore and engage enemies intelligently, running away if need be.
The delving worked out really well but were a lot of work to figure them all out. I planned different quests based on things that were in the dungeon with multiple steps to accomplish the task and events that would happen as they did their thing. I based the quests on the ones in Fallout 3 since I was playing it at the time. We ended up dropping the game because writing all the quests started to become a chore and while the sandboxy dungeon was fun I just didn't have the time to devote.
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When I think of delves I think of the raid on the Death Star in Star Wars. The Death Star is a megadungeon but the party has a specific quest, to rescue the Princess from the evil cleric. They delve in and then make their escape but don't spend a ton of time going room by room. It makes for a much more exciting adventure than stepping into each room and closet and seeing what is down every hallway. Not to mention that once their cover was blown they were kind of in a hurry.
For those folks on the thread who've had positive experiences, you've said that by adding plot, story and roleplaying to the dungeon the GM or module made it fun. Can you describe HOW these elements were added?
When I talk about story, I’m focusing more in the characters than the “adventure” as such. Although initially, the group was paid to map out the Mouth of Doom, literally a room by room exploration with gold paid per room and a bonus for a finished annotated map. Afterward, a mage’s guild moved into the Mouth, renaming it The Hermitage (and incidentally gave the PCs a nearby place to rest, sell, etc…).
Once they finished the Mouth of Doom, they were paid to investigate the “exits” from the bottom floor which led them to being trapped in the 1st floor of Rappan Atuk. In regards to the characters, the rouge of the group is seeking the origins of his guild and has been given hints that the secrets lay in the Cyclopean Deeps well below Rappan Athuk, the paladin has been charged with cleaning the earth of Orcus, a psionic Vitalist is running away from a mysterious vampireish NPC who has an unhealthy interest in him, the barbarian is in love with another character and willing follows wherever he leads, the witch is a might bit power hungry and attached to the paladin and the Soulknife is paid help, but has his own inner voices calling him down into the earth.Again, I’m focusing on stories that will keep the characters moving and invested in the exploring this mega-dungeon, with the relationships between the characters playing a major role in why they stay together and adventure.
Other meta-plot elements I’ve got brewing include an orc army (backed by priests of the Frog God) interested in invading the dungeon from above in order to return to their home of Greznek, the goblin city on level 12A, and the church of Iomadea being extremely interested in the PCs finding evidence of the Army of Light and their fate (potentially leading to a quest off to Slumbering Tsar).
Not sure if that helps!
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Slumbering Tsar in my opinion has kind of a kingmaker plot style, there's very few direct quests and the rest of it is go investigate rumors or explore. By recommendation of others I at one point I had some members of the party have a horrific nightmare with some terrain features in it that are common to one area.
Another instance was just adding a name to a hireling and having her become the love interest of another player, although she was opposed to him idealistically so they have this love versus duty thing going. Slumbering Tsar does a really good job of suppling tons of rumors to keep players guessing and investigating, I think that could work well for a megadungeon. RA has a huge list.
I always try and give each character coming in some personal investment in the story. I had one player come in with amnesia stuck in a jail cell out in the desert, he had no idea how he got there and is trying to figure out how. A mysterious entity mentioned something about not making the same mistakes twice, now he's pushing to find out what went on and why people recognize him.
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I like what I call dungeons with a purpose. So do my players, unless it’s a dungeon within a dungeon (like a corner section where for whatever reason you have about 12 rooms all with a different number of the exact same creature). It feels like a necessary XP boosting tool. I always GM, and I’ve always edited dungeons down, but it started to be very regular with Shackled City and I've never looked back; I award XP when they need it not when they kill stuff.
So the standard fare since 2007 is I put the level map in a drawing program, reading through the module as prep and just cut out the rooms that are boring, empty, or when I see a pattern emerging of the same creature over and over again. It’s work sure, but it’s not just for the players. Giant or repetitive dungeons are just as much a pain to GM as they are to play through for my folks.
As a side note the only Adventure Path I never had to edit a single map for was Kingmaker. Short, targeted dungeons are the best.
Edit: Rappan Athuk and Slumbering Tsar are megadungeons done right. By listening to the writes of Emerald Spire talk at GenCon, Paizo’s going make this one super.
So my own dungeon is Flamenwing Castle. Topside it was a citadel the size of a large town with towers at the edges of the town's hinterlands as well as inner defenses. The dungeon mirrors that scope and spans a dozen square miles north to south, and east to west.
I did the dungeon as a horizontal, not vertical sprawl for some variation. Flamenwing then is broken up into these "outposts" beneath some of the ruined outer defenses topside, all of which inevitably leading to the inner knot of the dungeon.
Now the dungeon was built by humans and in grand scale, but it is currently occupied by monsters. The primary inhabitants are kobolds and aberrations, but many other things are down there besides. The kobolds have established a culture and economy - they've colonized whole sections of the dungeon for things like scroll making, trap engineering, breeding programs, etc.
@ Josh: I think I'm following your method here. My intent was to run the campaign as a series of quests/delves with brief interludes topside. The characters have a small city (Ravenhurst) to call home and that settlement has a lot of its own problems. Then the lands around the city and dungeon, called Elderscorn Vale have all kinds of little plots and evils that pop up from time to time.
@ Palmer House: I am unwittingly following your lead as well. I have 3 characters right now, and their players gave them varying degrees of backstory. 1 is a dwarf cleric of Saranrae (worshipping her fire and good aspects) who gave me essentially nothing to work with save that he was a mason. He's interested in the engineering of the place and is going just for personal curiosity; my intent is to slowly work in a religious angle for him to pursue as well.
The 2nd character gave me a bit more and let me embelish his story a bit. Our collaboration has yielded a paladin whose father was killed in a kobold raid and the dad's magic anvil was stolen The paladin then is descending into Flamenwing for vengeance, but the very first serious NPC he came across had a masterwork spear. The player was making a point of how he was going around town looking at all the Master marks on weapons so he could identify weaponsmiths, so I had him find his own father's mark on the spear. Now he knows the anvil is in use somewhere down here too.
Finally there's the magus. The player running this character gave me a lot of detailed backstory, but not a lot of it is related to the dungeon. I've embelished a bit, but so far all I've got is a dad that died defending a small village and a mom who was secretly a dragon. My thought is to eventually work the mom into being held captive in the dungeon or something.
So the party's completed their first delve to help a rogue recover some lost companions. The magus was one, a second was a cleric they found dying and a third NPC disappeared into Flamenwing dungeon with kobolds bound for the Scritedra; a scroll-making office where skin is turned to velum and consumable magic items are then crafted. The party is recovering in town, will get some downtime, and then be hired for an overland adventure; in the meantime their rogue NPC contact will be consumed with a desire to destroy the Scritedra and it's Meiger (kobold master) so that no one else can suffer at his hands.
I've been playing a mega dungeon for a few months now in a high level game in an AP that shall remain nameless to avoid spoilers. I'm enjoying it, though it has been about 3 months I think and we are not done.
The only problem is that hypothetically we are in a hurry, trying to save someone, but 3 months of nothing but fights, haunts, and fights with haunts in them, it's hard to maintain any sense of real urgency, and one of our players really began to meta-game. After 3-4 fights the wizard would state that he's drained (lvl 14 diviner) and that he wants to rest. So we would. The gm found this irritating so dimensionally locked the whole area. I don't blame him, I blame the wizard a little, but I really blame the AP, what's the big idea of a mega dungeon with a pressing objective, even one with no actual time limit.
Keeping players stressed is difficult when they can just leave the place, rest and come back after a day of shopping. There is just nothing stopping them from doing this after every couple of fights.
Some arbitrary time limit, even a generous one would keep this in check, say you have a month to retrieve the orb, lest it be lost forever, something like that. Then PC's will make an effort to make each day count.
I designed one of the first. I may have been the first DM to think of the idea of being stuck in a dungeon and working your way out ‘thru the bottom”.
I played in the Worlds Largest Dungeon, with 3.5. The early levels were killers. Then, they varied, from walk-over, killer, or challenging. We did finish it, however.
The DM had to introduce a ‘traveling salesman”.