Personally I'd prefer it if casters could cast more spells, but had to be significantly more specialized. It's just kind of overwhelming how they get access to every tool.
I'd rather have a less overwhelming character and more spells myself, but if you just narrow down their options people might just pounce more on the schools that are versatile(Conjuration/transmutation), while the schools that are more specialized get overlooked even more(enchantment/illusion).
Which is why it'd be a good idea to beef up each individual school, but heavily limit access to spells outside your school of expertise.
If Evocation, Enchantment, and Illusion were as versatile and effective (in different ways) as Conjuration and Transmutation, it wouldn't be an issue.
Which is why it'd be a good idea to beef up each individual school, but heavily limit access to spells outside your school of expertise.
If Evocation, Enchantment, and Illusion were as versatile and effective (in different ways) as Conjuration and Transmutation, it wouldn't be an issue.
That would require some crazy bizarre universe though, wouldn't it? Maybe a world that didn't use vancian and thought that if something was overpowered once it didn't matter if you could use it 3-4 times a day...
Bizzaro Pathfinder! Where rouges are OP.
I'd rather not honestly. Trying to split everything into different schools doesn't do much other than screw over parties who cannot afford to have a specialist in even two schools because not everyone wants to play a spellcaster.
Oops, no dispel magic for you man. I'm not an abjurer. I'd really love to enlarge you fighter, but I'm a diviner so **** you. Haste was so Pathfinder guys, I'm a conjurer.
|
It still doesn't work anywhere without high ceilings.Works just fine as long as the ceiling is at least 10 feet high.
Excuse me? You fighter has a reach of minus 5'?
A typical medium individual is higher than 5', but for sake of simplicity we can say that a character occupy a 5'x5'x5' cube. Then he has a 5' reach. How is that eh is incapable to hit the other character occupying a 5' cube under a 10' high ceiling?
Also worth nothing that I’ve seen several developers pretty much say outright that scry + teleport doesn’t work even if you do find someone to scry, and that the teleport /scrying clause has to do with specific circumstances. Might have been James Jacobs. That isn’t exactly a hard rule or one that I would apply, but if it is damaging your game you might try it.
Scry let you see a very small area around the target, Teleport require you to know his locations, not only seeing the room in which he is, so unless you are capable to recognize the target location from what you see, Teleport don't work.
Greater Teleport will work.Edit:
Well, yes and no. His argument was effectively that the viewed once aspect of scrying only comes up if you learn the location – e.g. the people you scry talk about where they are. That isn’t strictly spelled out within the rules either way, so ultimately it’s a GM call. I don’t run it as such, but I’m reluctant to describe something that is a judgment call as a house rule.That said, again, I don’t think it is a needed position.
Something that somewhat support the opposite view (it is against my position, but I try to be honest in this kind of discussion):
Dimension Door, Greater Teleport, Teleport, Teleportation Circle: Because ships are constantly in motion, the caster of spells of the teleportation subschool must have line of sight to teleport onto a ship. Otherwise, a caster must scry upon a particular ship first, then immediately teleport to the scryed destination. Any delay in casting means the ship has moved from its scryed location and the spell fails.
So apparently the dew feel that scrying a 10' radius sphere is enough to determine the location of a ship.
At taht point it would work even when srying a room, even if you don't know in which continent it is.
You know what I meant, jeez. If you were going to pull up something from so many posts ago it could have been to discuss something more than a simple error.
|
|
You know what I meant, jeez. If you were going to pull up something from so many posts ago it could have been to discuss something more than a simple error.
1) I am going post by post;
2) it is a blatant error;3) you are in the habit of doing that kind of "errors" when you want to support your position (example in this thread: Overland flight).
2) it is a blatant error;
Yes it is. It's been pointed out. I said "My bad". I meant 15 (which isn't uncommon).
3) you are in the habit of doing that kind of "errors" when you want to support your position (example in this thread: Overland flight).
Did you ever think perhaps a mistake is a mistake? Especially when the error is so easily seen there's not even a chance I could be trying to mislead someone?
|
|
Also charging through the cloud isn't your only option. I think ALL of the cloud spells are Dismissable.
No D in fog cloud, stinking cloud, cloudkill. From the spells with "cloud" in the name in the CRB only Incendiary cloud is dismissible, as far as I can see.
Similarly Acid fog, Mind fog, Solid fog aren't dismissable.
|
|
2) it is a blatant error;Yes it is. It's been pointed out. I said "My bad". I meant 15 (which isn't uncommon).
3) you are in the habit of doing that kind of "errors" when you want to support your position (example in this thread: Overland flight).Did you ever think perhaps a mistake is a mistake? Especially when the error is so easily seen there's not even a chance I could be trying to mislead someone?
After a few times, no.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
No D in fog cloud, stinking cloud, cloudkill. From the spells with "cloud" in the name in the CRB only Incendiary cloud is dismissible, as far as I can see.
Similarly Acid fog, Mind fog, Solid fog aren't dismissable.
Ah. This too, was all part of my master plan, you see.
After a few times, no.
You heard it here first, making more than 3 mistakes in your lifetime means you're doing so maliciously.
|
|
As we’ve discussed on several occasions, I see absolutely zero problem with simulacrum as written. The only problem is that it requires a GM take the time to build what he considers an appropriate copy of a given creature, which can be a bit of a headache.
I highly doubt any caster person is arguing against certain spells being nerfed (Looking at you Simulacrum.)
It would benefit from the old rule that was removed in Pathfinder "making a simulacum require a piece of the creature to be copied."
that alone would resolve a lot of problems.
Third: Fighters are already breaking the laws of nature. 30 STR is not unreasonable for a Fighter to have and a STR that high would allow him move 1864 lbs. as a *light load*. Pick your favorite heavy object for him to effortlessly carry and tell me again why he can't smash walls effortlessly and leave craters in the ground (I'm no physicist, but assuming heavy load is the amount of lbs. of force this fighter could output 5,600 pounds of force being applied to ground which seems to me should get you some kind of area of effect). A fighter may be able to mince a pit fiend in 6 seconds, but you know who else can do that? EVERY OTHER CLASS.
Let's see: str 30 = +15 to damage. 2 handed weapon, +22. Power attack at level 20, +18, specialization +2
Total 2d6 +42.Iron wall 1 inch tick: Dr 15, hp 30.
If the fighter don't roll snake eyes he will break it in one try.
Masonry wall (1 ft. thick) break DC 35. Yes, this one is hard, you need a natural 20 to pass through a 1' thick masonry wall.
Way more efficient to make 3 attacks against its hardness of 8 and its 90 hp and open an hole.
Fourth: Sure some encounters will happen where minute per level buffs won't be available, but those are going to be fairly rare. Even at level 10, with extend spell these spells will last for 20 minutes (which is 200 rounds). You cast these before you enter the Citadel of Orm-Durak or before you go investigating the Cultist of Ythys. Do your dungeon explorations really take you more than a 100 rounds? Because I can't think of a single published scenario where that is the case (at least not that doesn't provide a rest break in between). Can these defense be overcome? Absolutely~! But while your trying to even get to play the "Whack the caster with a stick game" he's playing the "As the size of the explosion increases the number of social situations it can resolve approaches 0" game.
Really you run around without ever checking something? 100 rounds is 10 minutes.
Disabling a trap
Simple 1 round 10 Jam a lock
Tricky 1d4 rounds 15 Sabotage a wagon wheel
Difficult 2d4 rounds 20 Disarm a trap, reset a trap
Extreme 2d4 rounds 25 Disarm a complex trap, cleverly sabotage a clockwork device
Casting a spell 1 standard action, the 10 preparatory spells cut away 10% of your 100 rounds. And those CLW wands you sue to cure your damage? Ata 1d8+1/round you need a lot of time to heal the wounded.
Searching a room: undefined, but if you are opening drawers and chests the rounds fly.
And so on. 10 minutes is a short time.
|
|
I highly doubt any caster person is arguing against certain spells being nerfed (Looking at you Simulacrum.)Heh, this seems like a decent time to dig up an old thing. I've acknowledged many times the sheer power of simulacrum on the forums a few times, but when my good forum-friend Wraithstrike said he wouldn't mind a better (more balanced) version I presented this:
...School illusion (shadow); Level sorcerer/wizard 7
Casting Time 12 hours
Components V, S, M (sculpture of the target plus powdered rubies worth 500 gp per HD of the simulacrum)
Range 0 ft.
Effect one duplicate creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noSimulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from clay, ice, mud, sand, snow, or stone. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, BAB, saving throws, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Perception or Sense Motive check (DC 10 + caster level of the simulacrum spell).
If a creature casts spells as a class (such as a dragon casting spells as a sorcerer), then the duplicate casts spells at half that level (so a duplicate of a creature with 12 HD who casts spells as an 8th level sorcerer would have 6 HD and cast as a 4th level sorcerer). If the creature has spell-like abilities, the duplicate's caster level with those abilities is halved. In addition, the duplicate cannot use any spell-like abilities that mimic spells that wouldn't be available to a spellcaster with caster level equal to the duplicate's HD x 1.5 (so a
I have only skinned it, but it seem nicely done. I think I will borrow it.
Good job!|
|
No D in fog cloud, stinking cloud, cloudkill. From the spells with "cloud" in the name in the CRB only Incendiary cloud is dismissible, as far as I can see.
Similarly Acid fog, Mind fog, Solid fog aren't dismissable.
Ah. This too, was all part of my master plan, you see.
After a few times, no.You heard it here first, making more than 3 mistakes in your lifetime means you're doing so maliciously.
Masterplan? No.
Erring always in the same direction? Yes.You are convinced of the spellcasters huge advantage, so you always "assume" that the rules allow them to do more that they can.
it is not something you have done in this thread only, you have done it in several other occasions.
You can argue that I suffer for the opposite form of blindness, and I can even somewhat agree, but I try to keep that in check. You don't seem to try.
And yes, I should have someone with improved grab in my ancestry. After I have bitten something I have a hard time dropping it.
If I didn't try I would make the same mistake again once it was pointed out to me. I rarely do this. I don't always check every spell, just going off of my own memory. Hence things like forgetting Overland Flight is a Personal spell, not a Touch one, or the nature of dismissability of a number of spells in the same family.
Chances are I'll remember these. I'll undoubtedly make different mistakes in the future, and be called on those as well (I hope, some have gone on for quite a while. I realized while statting up a few new ones today that I'd been calculating the natural armor bonuses for my zombies wrong in a game for about 2 months and needed to drop their AC by about 4 points each. The GM audited them all and missed it too. =/).
I do it when it would help my cause to not make that mistake just as often, but that's hard to see that when you're trying to see a trend instead. I make mistakes. It happens.
I don't mind when people tell me I'm wrong (when I'm actually wrong). I do mind people implying that I am, in a sense, lying to make my case.
I have only skinned it, but it seem nicely done. I think I will borrow it.
Good job!
Thanks Diego. ^_^
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ok Rynjin, I apologize.
I was wrong to imply that you do that on purpose.
I think it is a form of blindness we both share, only we are in very different camps, so sometime my reaction is excessive.
I must admit that more than once some of the rules interpretation I had taken for granted were wrong and the right interpretation made the spellcasters more powerful, so my opinion that the caster aren't so ultra powerful can depend on the playing style of my circle of players.
- * -
Returning to the thread argument, I think that the problem of the martial isn't that they aren't powerful, but that their power apply in a narrow way, while the spellcasters have a broader selection of options.
Some player compound that saying "I will be only a middling practitioner of this, not the top one, so it is not worth spending resources in this. It is better to add another DPS to my main attack."
A spellcaster can do that and still keep some option in reserve, for a martial it is harder.
That is more a player problem than a class problem. One of my players in particular is an expert at using low cost and/or one shot magic items to resolve plenty of problems even when playing a martial. Sometime problems that full spellcaster weren't capable to resolve without retreating and changing spells. It require preparation and ingenuty, but it can be done.
The problem I find with that is that it's more investment for a lesser result, and it's not like they have more resources to throw around to offset that, and it's not a martial only trick (Especially when you factor in that casters do the oneshot magic bit a lot better, since they don't need a UMD check for it).
That's the main issues I have with the "solutions" to the major disadvantages these classes have. It's not that solutions aren't possible, it's that they kind of showcase how bad the design is.
If class X can do Y, and class Z can do Y, it's still not balanced if class X uses resource A while class Z needs to use resource Z+1, and that's the best case scenario there.
I tentatively exempt Barbarian from this scenario, because Barbarians are the odd duck of a one trick pony who can make his trick cover a wide variety of scenarios. Barbarians smash things, but whereas a Fighter only smashes creatures, and sometimes objects, Barbarians can smash magic, they can smash the ground for limited crowd control ability, they can smash the boundary between our world and the spirit world, AND they can smash creatures and objects.
We often in my games jokingly say that the Barbarian can cast a lot of spells. He can cast Dispel Magic. He can cast Transmute Creature to Corpse at will, as well as Transmute Solid Object to Rubble, and of course the "Rage" spell, but better. ;)
And it's not far off. The Barbarian is in a good spot. I suppose in a pure numbers crunching standpoint, he's worse, but not by nearly as much, and in practice he pulls his weight a lot better due to his combination of raw smashy power melded with a large amount of anti-everything capability, since the main downside Fighters and the like have (can't move in to full attack without wasting a round, while the casters have no loss in capability at higher levels) is gone.
If other classes took a leaf from that book, the game would be much better for it, I think.
If they were given similar OUT of combat utility as well, it'd be just about perfect.
I really didn't want this can of worms. I was just suggesting ways to make spellcasters a bit less uber.
Please ignore me...as you were...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Stuart this topic always becomes complex. At least people are being civil about it this time. :)
If you are still reading you might want to list how it causes actual problems in your games, but when presented as a general topic this is what you get.
Personally I dont see a real imbalance until 7th level spells come on board, BUT I have always(over 95%) had players that worked together and did not really care about the spotlight so it was a non-issue.
Yeah, a good group really helps matters not become an issue in-game. I just get a twitch in my eye when I see something that is clearly (to me) imbalanced, even though it's not directly causing an issue due to outside factors.
|
|
If class X can do Y, and class Z can do Y, it's still not balanced if class X uses resource A while class Z needs to use resource Z+1, and that's the best case scenario there.
But class X can do B as well as class A?
Put another way, a spellcaser can do as many DPR as a martial for a comparable amount of time or number of opponents? Can it maintain them?
If the reply involve "retreating to a fast deimiplane and returning after 12 hours" or "after sleeping", no, he can't.
The problem is the complexity of managing the adversaries, not the spellcaster per se. 6, 8 or more mid level adversaries will make the martials shine an force the spellcaster to ration their resources. But while it was easy to manage intelligently that numbers of more of enemies in the first and second edition of AD&D or the the BECM D&D now it is way more complicated and tiring for the GM. And the battle will require way more time to be resolved. So we tend to use a small number of adversaries, where a single successful spell can end the fight.
Changing the spellcasters will not resolve that problem unless you go and redo them from the ground up. And even doing that you will probably end with totally useless characters or martials redone under a different skin or something close enough to the original version that the difference will be only in how many encounter they will be capable to deal with in a day.
So you must use other form of "control", as outlined by Peter, included having enough encounters in a day that going nova isn't so easy.
Diego, Str 30 is +10, not +15. It's +15 dmg with a 2h weapon, however.
==Aelryinth
"Slithering in disturbance of it's deep and inefable slumber the All Consuming Madness of The Ages just wishes in it's cold alien hearts that the petty mortals would just let it sleep already."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I honestly find it hard to believe your group fought through these with no magical support and no gear. No gear against a ton of enemies with DR, and no magic against those f&&@mothering teleporting, hasted, turning invisible, Fog Cloud tossing buttmonkeys known as Hounds of Tindalos (among other things) is a bit of a tall order when you're naked and provoking AoOs for each attack, unless your party size is much larger than normal.
Tell me the whole story? I'm pretty interested now.
Lets see. My recollection is as follows (if you’re really interested I can dig out the logs of this period, but they are quite long)…
In terms of combat he day started out with an encounter with an assassin that took a pot shot at the party wizard from the top of a building when his partner palmed the fighter with a poison to distract everyone. Eventually the assassin was caught / killed. It moved onto an attack by three more assassins in a tavern, and then to an attack by a small mercenary company and their leader in which many civilians were caught in the crossfire. Next up came an encounter that I honestly don’t recall, then the party separated from its NPC cleric and eventually ended up in the depths of a local Mage’s Guild where they were astral projected by the nominally most powerful wizard in the city to fight an astral dreadnought (without their cleric). They overcame the dreadnought and three or four creatures nearby armed with dominate person and similar effects, but before returning from the astral projection noticed their gear disappearing. They woke up in cells with walls made of walls of force that were functionally permanent antimagic fields.
Next comes a brief 1v1 unarmed brawl between the ogre henchmen of a wizard and the party wizard, which lead to her escape from her cell and into the block. The party talked down the remaining guard and convinced them to release them.
From there the party looted some improvised weapons from a nearby office, then proceeded to immediately encounter an 11th level wizard with clockwork soldiers and stone golems. What ensued was a chaotic combat in which the party fighters got mangled pretty badly, but eventually killed off the clockworks and the golems (despite the wizard healing them), and captured the wizard. The party gained from them several weapons and valuable intelligence, and proceeded to move forward. It encountered a number of low level wizards (apprentices) armed with low charged wands of magic missile (CL 9), several low level maguses, and a couple of higher level. That fight spiraled out of control as reinforcements showed up, including an ~11th level wizard (conjurer) who proceeded to bludgeon the party with several weaker summons and a retriever that the party wizard narrowly dispelled before it could inflict too much damage. That wizard escaped, but his departure cleared the way to the medical wing where the party was able to locate some of their (partially depleted) healing wands and potions, which put the worst of the wounded back together (remember, we had no divine spellcaster). This gained the party access to some magical weapons (though not their own) and armor (though not their own).
The party sorcerer did some scouting with some sort of shadow spell (one of his last spell slots for the day) and the party proceeded to take a couple of encounters against middling level enemies from surprise with only limited damage. This gained them a few additional wands and magic items, as well as some more intelligence.
Eventually the party made its way to the next level of the tower, encountering another of the tower’s mighty wizards but avoiding a conflict with him. They proceeded to fight a couple of skirmishes (if I recall correctly) with some middling level wizards before stumbling across a group of mi-go dissecting another of the tower’s master wizards. They overcame the mi-go, put back together the horribly maimed wizard, and in return gained access to some additional gear and a recharge for some of the casters expended spell slots. Next came an encounter with a hunter-killer team led by wizards armed with the party’s staves (which they generously expended most of the charges from), then with several symbols and other traps, and finally the hounds of Tindalos. After killing a couple and chasing off the rest of the hounds the party rescued their familiars and moved on to confront the guardian of the east wing of that floor – mechanically an a golem within a golem within a golem. Following that fight the party engaged in another pointless skirmish (if I remember correctly), then an encounter with two high level maguses who nearly killed one party fighter. What followed is somewhat fuzzy to my recollection, but the party (I think) overcame the maguses only to be ambushed by some (unbeknown to them) projected images of a pair of wizards (13th and 11th level respectively iirc) that forced them to retreat (though not without recovering some of their armor from the two maguses). Enter another fight with several more hounds and finally a move to main event where the party was teleported into a massive chamber with a number of high level maguses, many lower level wizards, the two projecting wizards from before, several golems, and so forth. The party was forced into what was, if I recall correctly, a battle that lasted at least ten rounds.
On the whole it was one of the more memorable days IC that took close to a year to play out OOC (especially since between many conflicts were periods of some RP with prisoners and survivors). It definitely drove home the dangers of expending all of your resources early in the day.
But I really must ask, what's the point of all this? It doesn't really prove any sort of point in the discussion, and doesn't really prove your GM is good (but doesn't label him as bad, either), just that he knows how to overload an encounter with powerful or numerous enemies. It seems like dangerous and potentially lethal encounters are already very achievable with intelligent use of less or less powerful enemies, why is all this required when intelligent use of all these factors should result in a party wipe (having to make multiple save or dies a round while enemies stall you and high level casters bombard you will eventually wear down even the most prepared and tactically skilled party just through sheer force of probability that you'll fail at least one of those.).
Mostly just providing some examples of how our games probably differ, rather than trying to drive home any point about the relative merits of our different play styles. We tend to go big with set pieces. High level characters are expected to overcome challenges well beyond those they did at low levels, both in number and strength. In my experience this typically means characters of every focus have something to do. Healers have purpose, blasters have a purpose, fighters find a purpose, buffers contribute, and so forth. I’m sure it could be achieved other ways, but things have worked for us thus far.
It also makes for a hell of a story to tell later, both IC and OOC.
I really didn't want this can of worms. I was just suggesting ways to make spellcasters a bit less uber.
Talking about casters and game imbalances is always a can of worms.
Sorry to get here late but to stick with your original subject, I think that nerfing casters isn't a real way to go, but your suggestion in your first post doesn't exactly solve any problems because save DCs aren't really the abusive part of spells. In fact I think it causes more problems because it means that a full caster can have a 19 in it's casting stat and spend raise the rest of it's stats to be less vulnerable, and just use other means to increase their save DCs like feats and class features.
whenever I placed a caster I typically pick a gimmick and running with it because I hate having spells I cant use because the situation isn't right. As a result I tend to have a more direct role and not a typical god mode caster. I also keep track of components and stuff like that so my spells actually cost money.
If the reply involve "retreating to a fast deimiplane and returning after 12 hours" or "after sleeping", no, he can't.Why do you disqualify those? What are the enemies really going to do that can't be overcome by a series of short forays? If it requires just as much magic as the wizard you're countering all it proves is that the real game is magic versus magic and the martials don't really matter.
It's not like the barbarian and paladin and cavalier and samurai and monk and ninja aren't all just as eager to keep the day short as the casters. Monks and ninja are probably more eager as shallow as their ki pools are.
This is something I never really understood. I guess I'm just a mean GM but whenever the party leaves a dungeon to rest, they come back to a greater number of enemies that have laid traps. The encounters in the dungeon basically reset and go up a CR. So this never really works in my campaigns.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is something I never really understood. I guess I'm just a mean GM but whenever the party leaves a dungeon to rest, they come back to a greater number of enemies that have laid traps. The encounters in the dungeon basically reset and go up a CR. So this never really works in my campaigns.If the reply involve "retreating to a fast deimiplane and returning after 12 hours" or "after sleeping", no, he can't.Why do you disqualify those? What are the enemies really going to do that can't be overcome by a series of short forays? If it requires just as much magic as the wizard you're countering all it proves is that the real game is magic versus magic and the martials don't really matter.
It's not like the barbarian and paladin and cavalier and samurai and monk and ninja aren't all just as eager to keep the day short as the casters. Monks and ninja are probably more eager as shallow as their ki pools are.
So the PCs are guaranteed to make it to level 20 by just exiting a dungeon over and over again? And this is going to discourage them from going and resting how precisely?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So the PCs are guaranteed to make it to level 20 by just exiting a dungeon over and over again? And this is going to discourage them from going and resting how precisely?This is something I never really understood. I guess I'm just a mean GM but whenever the party leaves a dungeon to rest, they come back to a greater number of enemies that have laid traps. The encounters in the dungeon basically reset and go up a CR. So this never really works in my campaigns.If the reply involve "retreating to a fast deimiplane and returning after 12 hours" or "after sleeping", no, he can't.Why do you disqualify those? What are the enemies really going to do that can't be overcome by a series of short forays? If it requires just as much magic as the wizard you're countering all it proves is that the real game is magic versus magic and the martials don't really matter.
It's not like the barbarian and paladin and cavalier and samurai and monk and ninja aren't all just as eager to keep the day short as the casters. Monks and ninja are probably more eager as shallow as their ki pools are.
Not to mention completely arbitrary. The 2nd level low time bandits that our party was working on clearing out got more reinforcements and increased in level? Wow they must be hardcore adventurers too.
Classic escalating dungeon formula. I think its funny as you progress as in levels that you never come across the same foes you did in far earlier levels. I've run those kinds of encounters and they are immensely pleasing to the players.
|
|
Diego, Str 30 is +10, not +15. It's +15 dmg with a 2h weapon, however.
==Aelryinth
Oops, I goofed. I divided 30 by 2, not (30-10)/2.
You would need a weapon with a few magical pluses and specialization or a adamantine weapon to destroy a 3 inch tick iron wall with one attack.
Still pretty impressive. In the real world a 3 inch tick iron wall would stop small caliber artillery pieces. It would not be bothered at all by a guy wielding a sword.
A guy with 30 strength at level 20 hasn't even been pushed to the max. Actually it is fairly "normal" when compared to the level of strength (or dexterity, or whatever that the characters could get if they try).
This is something I never really understood. I guess I'm just a mean GM but whenever the party leaves a dungeon to rest, they come back to a greater number of enemies that have laid traps. The encounters in the dungeon basically reset and go up a CR. So this never really works in my campaigns.If the reply involve "retreating to a fast deimiplane and returning after 12 hours" or "after sleeping", no, he can't.Why do you disqualify those? What are the enemies really going to do that can't be overcome by a series of short forays? If it requires just as much magic as the wizard you're countering all it proves is that the real game is magic versus magic and the martials don't really matter.
It's not like the barbarian and paladin and cavalier and samurai and monk and ninja aren't all just as eager to keep the day short as the casters. Monks and ninja are probably more eager as shallow as their ki pools are.
More frequently in my experience if the bad guys are worth fighting it is because they are doing something you don't want them to do. Maybe there are innocent lives in the balance, maybe the bad guys are racing the Pcs to an objective, or maybe the bad guys have a ritual of some kind that given enough time they'll complete and render the Pc actions moot. In any case, it is a relatively rare thing that any battle worth having is one the party can run away from without penalty.
Plus the PCs have lots of friends and loved ones (to say nothing of homes) that can be subject to reprisal if they flee. This isn't always a danger, but it can be very easily if they are well known or are leaving behind blood that can be used to find information about them, possessions (such as arrows) that can be used to scry them, or anything valuable (which can be used for visions and such).
@Peter Stewart: Ah, you got more weapons somewhere. I was thinking you were running around punching things the whole time. =)
But class X can do B as well as class A?Put another way, a spellcaser can do as many DPR as a martial for a comparable amount of time or number of opponents? Can it maintain them?
But the point isn't DPR, or mostly even in combat stuff. Crowd Control making encounters trivial is an issue in combat sometimes, and buffs win fights (DPR-wise Haste and a couple of other buffs like Greater Heroism and Good Hope double my usual DPR).
But the main issue is spells that invalidate out of combat issues (Like Teleport and Divinations) and make skills cry in a corner (Fly, Invisibility, and so on).
In combat the issues crop up on a semi-regular basis (the occasional "Black Tentacles made everything too easy =(" and so on), but no more so than "The Barbarian critted for 337 damage!".
If the reply involve "retreating to a fast deimiplane and returning after 12 hours" or "after sleeping", no, he can't.
Does it count if a demiplane is timeless? Not that I'd ever use ours that way unless it was a very severe emergency because I think Wraithstrike would have it collapse on us. =p
The problem is the complexity of managing the adversaries, not the spellcaster per se. 6, 8 or more mid level adversaries will make the martials shine an force the spellcaster to ration their resources. But while it was easy to manage intelligently that numbers of more of enemies in the first and second edition of AD&D or the the BECM D&D now it is way more complicated and tiring for the GM. And the battle will require way more time to be resolved. So we tend to use a small number of adversaries, where a single successful spell can end the fight.
I tend to use APs as an example of what the devs expected a caster to face. For the most part, enemy counts rarely rise over about 6 somewhat dangerous enemies.
When you have to amp the challenge the game expects to compensate for something, that speaks that something MAY need a tweak at a base level. Not necessarily, depending on whether it's based on optimization or sheer power, but it should trigger some looking into whether it's the ability or the usage that's the problem.
IMO a decent chunk of the time, it's the ability with casters.
Changing the spellcasters will not resolve that problem unless you go and redo them from the ground up. And even doing that you will probably end with totally useless characters or martials redone under a different skin or something close enough to the original version that the difference will be only in how many encounter they will be capable to deal with in a day.
Re-doing a lot of the spells from the ground up will help, however. Starting with the low level ones that make investment in a skill less desirable.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So the PCs are guaranteed to make it to level 20 by just exiting a dungeon over and over again? And this is going to discourage them from going and resting how precisely?This is something I never really understood. I guess I'm just a mean GM but whenever the party leaves a dungeon to rest, they come back to a greater number of enemies that have laid traps. The encounters in the dungeon basically reset and go up a CR. So this never really works in my campaigns.If the reply involve "retreating to a fast deimiplane and returning after 12 hours" or "after sleeping", no, he can't.Why do you disqualify those? What are the enemies really going to do that can't be overcome by a series of short forays? If it requires just as much magic as the wizard you're countering all it proves is that the real game is magic versus magic and the martials don't really matter.
It's not like the barbarian and paladin and cavalier and samurai and monk and ninja aren't all just as eager to keep the day short as the casters. Monks and ninja are probably more eager as shallow as their ki pools are.
I don't know if I should laugh or cry at this reply.
Essentially you see all the gaming world as a computer game where nothing change when you are away from an area?
It was already stated several times in this thread. The BEEG can flee, gather reinforcement, reposition whatever he has, cast his spells and build traps, and so on ad libitum. Some of those options require magic, other don't.
It the characters have the level and resources to retreat to a demiplane to return after 12 hours fully rested, a comparable level BEEG should have something to do if he get 12 hours of warning before the next attack.
Even simply buying a few flasks of alchemist fire, liquid ice and acid can change an encounter at low level. At higher level it can be a few potions, scroll and whatever.
What an intelligent BEEG shouldn't do is staying put in his room twiddling his thumbs, without even trying to bar the door the character battered down two room away.
Not to mention completely arbitrary. The 2nd level low time bandits that our party was working on clearing out got more reinforcements and increased in level? Wow they must be hardcore adventurers too.
Classic escalating dungeon formula. I think its funny as you progress as in levels that you never come across the same foes you did in far earlier levels. I've run those kinds of encounters and they are immensely pleasing to the players.
Penoso.
Goon one: "Oh, look, a bunch of murdering hobos has slaying 3/4 of our group, but now they have gone away. I am sure they will not bother us again. Let's stay here in our cozy hideout."
Goon 2: "Idiot, they can be here again in minutes, as soon as they have recovered a bit. Let's grab the loot and flee."
Unless these guy have subhuman intelligence and wisdom they will follow Goon 2 suggestion and scatter.
The PC would have won, but they would have lost a noticeable part of the reward.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well first things first: My cars are very street legal, they might go to fast for you to pilot, but they are very street legal.
First things first: Your simulacrum arguments are illegal on their face, since they assume you are the one to build your simulacrums, and that they are not affected by their rebuilding from the base creature at half hit dice despite general language in the spell and overt developer responses clarifying the intention of such language. The standard level 20 wizard you offered your support of was illegal on its face.
Beyond that, most of your other tricks are legal in the sense that they mechanically work, but would never be permitted outside of highly specialized testing grounds / theory crafting. I’m not saying they do not work within the rules as written (metaphorically the laws of physics). I’m saying they’d never see play in any conventional game (e.g. on the streets). You can hold them up as examples of how the system can be broken dangerously, but ultimately they don't mean very much because their theoretical potential remains just that.
Finally, don’t confuse disinclination with disability. That I do not enjoy something does not mean that I am incapable of doing so.
Second: If you think Blood Money Simulacrums are my only tactic you are sorely mistaken and in fact neither of my level 20 casters relies on them. There's just no reason not have them outside my character carrying a planet sized idiot ball. Rest assured both casters even without Simulacrums (I'm not giving up my Blood Money Bloody Skeletons though, but I am willing to not utilize Bloody Skeletons being controlled via the Command Undead spell) can still absolutely faceroll anything remotely CR appropriate outside of another caster (which would still have to be played with atleast much casting system mastery.)
Am I supposed to be impressed that you can take advantage of the most powerful options of a system with literally thousands of pages in print and put them together to overcome enemies built for generic games rather than optimization Olympics? Anyone with half an hour and google can do the same thing. The game designers build monsters in the CR system around the community baseline, not around outliers (in terms of both options and players). All you do by working outside of that baseline is stroke your own ego and make your life (and your Gms life) more difficult than it needs to be.
Third: Fighters are already breaking the laws of nature. 30 STR is not unreasonable for a Fighter to have and a STR that high would allow him move 1864 lbs. as a *light load*. Pick your favorite heavy object for him to effortlessly carry and tell me again why he can't smash walls effortlessly and leave craters in the ground (I'm no physicist, but assuming heavy load is the amount of lbs. of force this fighter could output 5,600 pounds of force being applied to ground which seems to me should get you some kind of area of effect). A fighter may be able to mince a pit fiend in 6 seconds, but you know who else can do that? EVERY OTHER CLASS.
A high level fighter with a 30 strength can, statistically, smash through many walls in seconds. They can effortless kick down most doors, bend iron bars, burst through pure strength alone both rope and chain bonds, and with enough effort even break out of manacles with nothing but raw strength. As you note they can bench press cars with ease. All of that seems pretty fantastic and outside the bonds of what is conventionally possible for a human being.
As for leaving craters in the ground, I suspect you’ve watched a few too many anime fighting shows. The force required to leave an impact crater of any noticeable size is tremendous and has more to do with explosive capability than raw application of force.
Now that said, I do love the idea of some extra physics breaking powers like some presented in Mythic Adventures. They're the same type of powers that I've been working into all three epic level systems I've developed over the last four years. The thing is, I don't think you and other heavy optimization players would actually be happy with them, and and would likely simply be here posting about how those same powers were game breaking on their own if they did exist.
Fourth: Sure some encounters will happen where minute per level buffs won't be available, but those are going to be fairly rare. Even at level 10, with extend spell these spells will last for 20 minutes (which is 200 rounds). You cast these before you enter the Citadel of Orm-Durak or before you go investigating the Cultist of Ythys. Do your dungeon explorations really take you more than a 100 rounds? Because I can't think of a single published scenario where that is the case (at least not that doesn't provide a rest break in between). Can these defense be overcome? Absolutely~! But while your trying to even get to play the "Whack the caster with a stick game" he's playing the "As the size of the explosion increases the number of social situations it can resolve approaches 0" game.
As others have pointed out, and I will as well, the game uses an ambiguous time scale to represent things like discussion, searching rooms, looting items, and so forth. As such, it is relatively difficult to quantify exactly how long these things take within the context of rounds. My suspicion is that most GMs tend to round into the 1-5 minute range for searching rooms in detail, while they may ascribe extremely varied amounts of time to interactions between combats (e.g. talking about a given combat, which I suspect most groups do IC).
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a full dungeon cleared in less than an hour or two at the bottom end IC. I suppose if the party simply roared through not bothering to loot, search, or do anything other than quickly heal between combats they could cut that down by several magnitudes, but likely not within your 20 minute window. Various traps and stasis effects alone can take minutes to resolve (especially the effects of many symbols). This speaks not at all to various puzzles that can slow down a party tremendously (if you are curious as to what I mean, you might check out the old Mud Sorcerer’s Tomb, which makes extensive use of puzzles).
Beyond that, if combat only infrequently occurs when you are not fully buffed then you play a very different sort of game than I. I would say on average that perhaps 1/3rd of combat that I’ve seen at any level is the sort the party is prepared for (e.g. raiding a dungeon). More often circumstances arise that demand their attention, encounters occur while traveling, or circumstances that could go multiple directions (e.g. combat or noncombat) evolve in the direction of combat. Perhaps a quarter of these events could be mitigated or prepared for better, leading to a 50/50 split with purely careful play.
In short, I don’t find the argument that minutes per level buffs should be considered always active for combat persuasive.
Fifth: Spellbane is published spell. Regardless of Golarion specificness (which isn't really a limit). Oddly enough my Spellbane actually does protect from Disjunction and most other forms of removing my buffs, though alas even with my increased CL I couldn't manage to get Disepl Magic (regular) on the list, so yes... opponents could remove the buffs... one per standard action. An additional if they can quicken it. They may get all of 2 buffs down before they die a horrible death. (that's being optimistic... realistically their getting 1 in a hypothetical surprise round).
First, even working within the context of use of Spellbane you describe above, enemies could dispel your spellbane with a quickened dispel then hit you with a disjunction, wiping out your entire suit of buffs.
Second, the fact that Spellbane is Golarion specific is actually quite important. Letting aside the obvious (setting material is not RPG material), a great many Gms will not (and have never) admitted setting specific spells, feats, prestige classes, and magic items in to their own settings or another published one. There are a variety of reasons for this, ranging from not wanting to keep track of an extra collection of material, to viewing material from some settings as unbalanced, to simply wanting each setting to stand on its own. The suggestion that Spellbane would even be legal at the majority of tables is one that is probably false on its face.
Third, as I said originally, even when Spellbane is used, I do not believe your other buffs are likely to make you nearly as invulnerable as you seem to believe.
Sixth: What part of Time Stop isn't telling reality to sit down and shut up for a few second? Turning yourself into pretty much anything with shapechange probably casually violates several laws of reality. And oh lord polymorph any object... thats gotta make mother nature wake up and go "What!?", Heck even Fireball doesn't care about your law of thermodynamics. Reality is suggested baseline for casters, not a hard limit like it is for Fighters.
I think you and I have different definitions of what ‘telling reality to shit down and shut up’ means in the context of a fantasy game. All of the spells you have described have hard limits. Time stop is a 9th level spell, which even the most powerful spellcasters can prepare only a handful of times per day. You cannot interact with opponents or allies during the time stop. It requires a standard action to cast. It only lasts for a short (and random) period of time. Shapechange has explicitly spells out limitations in terms of what you can transform into and what benefits you gain as a result (a welcome change from 3.5). Fireball does energy damage of a specific type in a specific amount within a specific area that can be resisted. Teleport works within a specific set of limitations. Even polymorph any object works within a specific set of limitations that define its duration (among other things – granted PAO is probably still one of the most powerful printed spells). All of these spells bend reality in ways that are impossible.
Do you know what else bends reality in an impossible way? Falling in lava and crawling out. Falling 200ft. and walking away from that fall. Using an iron sword to carve apart adamantine or other harder metals. Using a sword to cut through a stone wall. Kicking down a barred door with one kick. Bursting steel chains or manacles that bind you with your bare hands and no ill effect. Leaping thirty, forty, fifty, or more feet (much less weighed down with weapons, armor, and gear that can weigh, as you noted, thousands of pounds). Leaping ten or more feet into the air. Climbing an ordinary brick wall with your bare hands. Fighting while balanced on a 2 inch thick beam. Shooting four arrows at four different birds a five hundred feet away from you in four different directions in 6 seconds – and hitting all four. Fighting through hundreds of men by yourself and emerging victorious.
There is plenty of fantastical in the game for martial characters long before we even get to class features that many possess.
Having GM'd several 1-20 campaigns, I can assure that some people can be blind to the gap for quite some time, but once they realize it they can't unsee it. It happened to a player of mine who was playing a Monk, though not until a fight with Azarathigaz, the Igniter of Heresy (Half-Fiend Red Dragon) and realized that he while he could fly, he would fall once he hit the antimagic field Azarathigaz had cast, while he had a back up bow, he didn't have the feats invested to make it useful and the chances of it significantly damaging Azarathigaz were extremely low, he was virtually guaranteed to avoid breath weapon damage, but considering that I play my high int monster like they have high int Azarathigaz was content to ignore him and instead focus on the Wizard who was sharing Polymorph Other with his Toad familiar, the incredibly large bears (one of which was also a full caster) and the Sorcerer who had luckily had lightning spells on his spells known, since fireball was really really not going to help. After this fight he realized this and since then has become a huge fan of Tome of Battle, which has helped him considerably. (3.5 Campaign)
I’m sorry, so your example of how casters are OP involves the use of Spellbane and enemies using antimagic? I just can’t take it seriously. It sounds like a case of an arms race between players and a GM – which is an entirely different problem from game balance.
I doubt its that we play different games, I just think you haven't played a game that went high enough to make the difference clear, or played with a caster who actually has some experience playing one at high levels.
You don’t really want to compare resumes with me. You seem to think I’m some neophyte player who has never heard of optimization and never played the game at high levels. I have – probably as much as anyone in both respects. The overwhelming majority of my game experience is at high or epic levels. I simply discovered that not only will good GMs put a damper on character optimization driven play, but that I found the character optimization style of play profoundly unfulfilling as a player who enjoys plot and character development more than simply combat.
I found that when the game was played from the perspective of a character with their own relationships, friends, dreams, ambitions, and morals the game became a great deal more immersive and entertaining than when I was metagaming as a player to greater and greater depths of power. Incidentally aiming to simply increase character power rarely took me anywhere, because the more I stomped level appropriate challenges the more the GM simply increased the difficulty of the challenges I faced. It’s sort of a lovely feature of the game – automatic scaling difficulty.
Finally, I discovered that relying primary on a limited number of sources rather than drawing on every splatbook made character creation less tedious, meant running characters was easier on myself and my GM, and generally meant that both he and I had more time to spend on the plot and characters, rather than upon building the next big mechanical headache. That doesn't mean we don't draw on multiple sources at times, but it does mean that focusing on only a couple core books (with rare exceptions) makes life easier for everyone (and immediately cuts out the more potentially balance damaging combinations).
There is a reason I consistently talk about one campaign and no others – because the only campaign I’ve ever played in that I was proud of is the one in which I stopped trying to monger power and started enjoying the game for what it was.
@Peter Stewart: Ah, you got more weapons somewhere. I was thinking you were running around punching things the whole time. =)
Oh yeah. We actually reclaimed a significant portion of our gear piece by piece from the enemies as we murdered them one by one. Without that we would have gotten obliterated. As it was we had a bunch of close calls and were running on fumes by the end.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
To reiterate,
I don't think casters in PF are a problem. At least not from what I've seen thus far. Again, three out of the four core martials (Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin) function very well at all levels, both in and outside of combat.
But why is this? Because they have options. Whether you like it or not, a lot of those options come from their ability to cast a smattering of spells. It really matters because the designers of the game seem to think that you can't do anything worthwhile unless it's with magic. Or because they have in-class resources (such as lay on hands) or special benefits that really matter (like divine grace, superstition, and uncanny dodge).
Just look at the multitude of feats that require huge feat chains to do things that are very underwhelming for the investment. Look at feats that people consider so good like Power Attack (requires 1 feat, scales with your level) versus Break Guard which requires Dex 15+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, and Two-Weapon Fighting. What does it do? IF you disarm someone, you can make an off-hand attack as a swift action against that person. You can't even use this tactic against an enormous number of enemies in the game, it's not very complicated, and it's fairly underwhelming (because the attack can still miss and then it's likely not dealing a lot of damage unless you also have goo-gobs of Strength or invested in Power Attack and ate some penalties to your Disarm and Attack rolls).
Any 4th level ranger can use some combination of any of the following abilities each day:
Alarm: Wards an area for 2 hours/level.
Animal Messenger: Sends a Tiny animal to a specific place.
Calm Animals: Calms 2d4 + level HD of animals.
Charm Animal: Makes one animal your friend.
Delay Poison: Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Detect Animals or Plants: Detects kinds of animals or plants.
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or object.
Detect Snares and Pits: Reveals natural or primitive traps.
Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold regions.
Entangle: Plants entangle everyone in 40-ft. radius.
Hide from Animals: Animals can't perceive one subject/level.
Jump: Subject gets bonus on Acrobatics checks.
Longstrider: Your base speed increases by 10 ft.
Magic Fang: One natural weapon of subject creature gets +1 on attack and damage rolls.
Pass without Trace: One subject/level leaves no tracks.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resist Energy: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
Speak with Animals: You can communicate with animals.
Summon Nature's Ally I: Summons creature to fight for you.
Ant Haul: Triples carrying capacity of a creature.
Aspect of the Falcon: Gives bonuses on Perception and ranged attacks.
Call Animal: Makes an animal come to you.
Cloak of Shade: Reduces effects of intense sun exposure and environmental heat.
Dancing Lantern: Animates a lantern that follows you.
Detect Aberration: Detect presence of aberrations.
Feather Step: Subject ignores adverse movement effects in difficult terrain.
Glide: No fall damage, move 60 ft./round while falling.
Gravity Bow: Arrows do damage as though one size category bigger.
Hunter's Howl: Treat enemies as favored for 1 round/level.
Keen Senses: Subject gains +2 Perception, low-light vision.
Lead Blades: Melee weapons damage as if one size bigger.
Negate Aroma: Subject cannot be tracked by scent.
Residual Tracking: Tell creature's appearance by footprint.
Tireless Pursuit: Ignore fatigue while hustling.
Anticipate Peril: Target gains a bonus on one initiative check.
Diagnose Disease: Detect and identify diseases.
Horn of Pursuit: Create three notes heard miles away.
Know the Enemy: Gain +10 on a monster Knowledge check.
Summon Minor Ally: Summon 1d3 Tiny animals.
Wartrain Mount: Animal gains combat training.
Abundant Ammunition: Replaces nonmagical ammunition every round.
Air Bubble: Creates a small pocket of air around your head or an object.
Bowstaff: A shortbow may double as a club, or a longbow as a quarterstaff.
Compel Hostility: Compels opponents to attack you instead of your allies.
Deadeye's Lore: Gain a +4 bonus on Survival and move full speed while tracking.
Liberating Command: Target makes an Escape Artist check as an immediate action and gains a bonus on it.
Longshot: Grants a +10-foot bonus to the range increment for any ranged weapon fired.
Returning Weapon: Grants a weapon the returning special weapon quality.
Sun Metal: Weapon touched bursts into flames.
A cheap magic trinket (pearl of power I) that the ranger can craft his or herself can let them use more of these each day. And he or she can swap these around each day. That's a measure of versatility that is highly useful and prized. Further, wands, scrolls, and so forth of these items are cheaper than potions and don't require UMD checks to function.
The answer is not nerfing spellcasters. 9/11 of the core classes work well together. 3 of them do not (Fighter, Rogue, and Monk) and those three are at least playable with a lot of system mastery.
EDIT: I wasn't thinking and I listed 2/3 martials but it's actually 3/4 working martials from core (I don't know how I forgot the Barbarian, that oiled up muscle god of war).
To reiterate,
I don't think casters in PF are a problem. At least not from what I've seen thus far. Again, two out of the three core martials (Ranger and Paladin) function very well at all levels, both in and outside of combat.
But why is this? Because they have options. Whether you like it or not, a lot of those options come from their ability to cast a smattering of spells. It really matters because the designers of the game seem to think that you can't do anything worthwhile unless it's with magic. Or because they have in-class resources (such as lay on hands) or special benefits that really matter (like divine grace, superstition, and uncanny dodge).
Just look at the multitude of feats that require huge feat chains to do things that are very underwhelming for the investment. Look at feats that people consider so good like Power Attack (requires 1 feat, scales with your level) versus Break Guard which requires Dex 15+, Int 13+, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, and Two-Weapon Fighting. What does it do? IF you disarm someone, you can make an off-hand attack as a swift action against that person. You can't even use this tactic against an enormous number of enemies in the game, it's not very complicated, and it's fairly underwhelming (because the attack can still miss and then it's likely not dealing a lot of damage unless you also have goo-gobs of Strength or invested in Power Attack and ate some penalties to your Disarm and Attack rolls).
I'd actually be interested in seeing an alternative to feats for a lot of these kind of specialized combat only things. Rebrand them as 'tricks' and create a feat that give 2-3 of your choice each time you take it. Might provide an incentive for more martially focused characters to diversify their options a bit more, rather can concentrating in a single area of extreme specialization. You could probably fit a lot of rogue-like tricks into it.
I will say, in their defense, that I think one reason developers tend to be more cautious with feat chains, martial classes, and archtypes is that they tend to more frequently present direct mechanical problems for games than a single spell - and those problems are not as easily fixed. If Bob's sorcerer keeps using telekinetic charge and it is causing problems in your game it is pretty easy to talk to Bob and ask him to swap it out for another spell. If Fred's fighter has built around a single tactic or mechanic you can tremendously undercut him by removing it.
I will say, in their defense, that I think one reason developers tend to be more cautious with feat chains, martial classes, and archtypes is that they tend to more frequently present direct mechanical problems for games than a single spell - and those problems are not as easily fixed. If Bob's sorcerer keeps using telekinetic charge and it is causing problems in your game it is pretty easy to talk to Bob and ask him to swap it out for another spell. If Fred's fighter has built around a single tactic or mechanic you can tremendously undercut him by removing it.
But it's a self-defeating thing. If the feats weren't buried in such massive feat chains and grossly underwhelming, there would be no more issue with the group asking that Bob the Fighter drop that one feat from his arsenal of scaling feats that granted him different options.
But you can't ****ing do that, because you remove one feat that actually is good and you've destroyed them. Or you have to go re-write every feat that required it as a prerequisite.
So the PCs are guaranteed to make it to level 20 by just exiting a dungeon over and over again? And this is going to discourage them from going and resting how precisely?This is something I never really understood. I guess I'm just a mean GM but whenever the party leaves a dungeon to rest, they come back to a greater number of enemies that have laid traps. The encounters in the dungeon basically reset and go up a CR. So this never really works in my campaigns.If the reply involve "retreating to a fast deimiplane and returning after 12 hours" or "after sleeping", no, he can't.Why do you disqualify those? What are the enemies really going to do that can't be overcome by a series of short forays? If it requires just as much magic as the wizard you're countering all it proves is that the real game is magic versus magic and the martials don't really matter.
It's not like the barbarian and paladin and cavalier and samurai and monk and ninja aren't all just as eager to keep the day short as the casters. Monks and ninja are probably more eager as shallow as their ki pools are.
Actually I level by plot point rather than xp.
How much stronger the dungeon is depends on circumstances and how long they leave it alone. Mostly they just set traps and get some reinforcements but if the PCs leave it along for a while then the enemies have leveled by then.
Although sometimes the enemies just clear out of there leaving some traps behind out of spite or some monster decides it's a good shelter. Again depends on the circumstance.
That's cool and all, but in my games I tend to have a general idea as to how many badguys there actually are. If there's 30 guys, and 15 of them are assumed on patrol, and you go in and wipe out 7 of those guys before retreating, then those reinforcements have to come from somewhere, so next time fewer are on patrol, or just aren't on patrol at all (especially if you killed some guys on patrol before).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's cool and all, but in my games I tend to have a general idea as to how many badguys there actually are. If there's 30 guys, and 15 of them are assumed on patrol, and you go in and wipe out 7 of those guys before retreating, then those reinforcements have to come from somewhere, so next time fewer are on patrol, or just aren't on patrol at all (especially if you killed some guys on patrol before).
In that kind of situation where 7 out of 30 guys got murdered without the other 8 guys not on patrol noticing they would have left. Obviously their treasure is not secure here.
This is something I never really understood. I guess I'm just a mean GM but whenever the party leaves a dungeon to rest, they come back to a greater number of enemies that have laid traps. The encounters in the dungeon basically reset and go up a CR. So this never really works in my campaigns.If the reply involve "retreating to a fast deimiplane and returning after 12 hours" or "after sleeping", no, he can't.Why do you disqualify those? What are the enemies really going to do that can't be overcome by a series of short forays? If it requires just as much magic as the wizard you're countering all it proves is that the real game is magic versus magic and the martials don't really matter.
It's not like the barbarian and paladin and cavalier and samurai and monk and ninja aren't all just as eager to keep the day short as the casters. Monks and ninja are probably more eager as shallow as their ki pools are.
I don't just make random enemies appear, but I do have them reorganize, if it makes sense within the story. The last campaign I completed had enemies that also did not like each other. Otherwise the party, which was around level 3 would have died a horrible death.
Does it count if a demiplane is timeless? Not that I'd ever use ours that way unless it was a very severe emergency because I think Wraithstrike would have it collapse on us. =p
<evil laugh, but reveals nothing> :)
In that kind of situation where 7 out of 30 guys got murdered without the other 8 guys not on patrol noticing they would have left. Obviously their treasure is not secure here.That's cool and all, but in my games I tend to have a general idea as to how many badguys there actually are. If there's 30 guys, and 15 of them are assumed on patrol, and you go in and wipe out 7 of those guys before retreating, then those reinforcements have to come from somewhere, so next time fewer are on patrol, or just aren't on patrol at all (especially if you killed some guys on patrol before).
I guess it's a race to see how fast they abandon trying to get any loot they can out while under manned before just fleeing.
|
|
I don't just make random enemies appear, but I do have them reorganize, if it makes sense within the story. The last campaign I completed had enemies that also did not like each other. Otherwise the party, which was around level 3 would have died a horrible death.This is something I never really understood. I guess I'm just a mean GM but whenever the party leaves a dungeon to rest, they come back to a greater number of enemies that have laid traps. The encounters in the dungeon basically reset and go up a CR. So this never really works in my campaigns.If the reply involve "retreating to a fast deimiplane and returning after 12 hours" or "after sleeping", no, he can't.Why do you disqualify those? What are the enemies really going to do that can't be overcome by a series of short forays? If it requires just as much magic as the wizard you're countering all it proves is that the real game is magic versus magic and the martials don't really matter.
It's not like the barbarian and paladin and cavalier and samurai and monk and ninja aren't all just as eager to keep the day short as the casters. Monks and ninja are probably more eager as shallow as their ki pools are.
The enemy should act logically. That is your job as the GM, to run the "not PC's" logically.
If you flee, I generally know the following.
1. That you all know where I am.
2. Who you are.
Element of surprise is awesome the first time, not so much the 2nd. If it is in my best interests to leave, I will. If I can't, I will fortify and prepare for the party using whatever I know.
The game is very different if you play your enemies as dumb and inflexible. Even in an adventure path or module, the information is generally "This is starting position and base information"
|
|
I guess it's a race to see how fast they abandon trying to get any loot they can out while under manned before just fleeing.In that kind of situation where 7 out of 30 guys got murdered without the other 8 guys not on patrol noticing they would have left. Obviously their treasure is not secure here.That's cool and all, but in my games I tend to have a general idea as to how many badguys there actually are. If there's 30 guys, and 15 of them are assumed on patrol, and you go in and wipe out 7 of those guys before retreating, then those reinforcements have to come from somewhere, so next time fewer are on patrol, or just aren't on patrol at all (especially if you killed some guys on patrol before).
So the party can flee and regroup reasonably, without pursuit or danger but the enemy can't...
Interesting...
I don't just make random enemies appear, but I do have them reorganize, if it makes sense within the story. The last campaign I completed had enemies that also did not like each other. Otherwise the party, which was around level 3 would have died a horrible death.This is something I never really understood. I guess I'm just a mean GM but whenever the party leaves a dungeon to rest, they come back to a greater number of enemies that have laid traps. The encounters in the dungeon basically reset and go up a CR. So this never really works in my campaigns.If the reply involve "retreating to a fast deimiplane and returning after 12 hours" or "after sleeping", no, he can't.Why do you disqualify those? What are the enemies really going to do that can't be overcome by a series of short forays? If it requires just as much magic as the wizard you're countering all it proves is that the real game is magic versus magic and the martials don't really matter.
It's not like the barbarian and paladin and cavalier and samurai and monk and ninja aren't all just as eager to keep the day short as the casters. Monks and ninja are probably more eager as shallow as their ki pools are.
The enemy should act logically. That is your job as the GM, to run the "not PC's" logically.
If you flee, I generally know the following.
1. That you all know where I am.
2. Who you are.Element of surprise is awesome the first time, not so much the 2nd. If it is in my best interests to leave, I will. If I can't, I will fortify and prepare for the party using whatever I know.
The game is very different if you play your enemies as dumb and inflexible. Even in an adventure path or module, the information is generally "This is starting position and base information"
The game was written so that they enemies were not talking to each other. I did not modify anything to help the party.
It was the 2nd chapter of Age of Worms