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So I am about to open the biggest can of worms I could have ever opened. But I feel that perhaps it's time to open it..
The premise here are simple: Ask a "Retired" Society Organizer anything that has to do with the creation, continuance, and even the end of a local chapter of a Pathfinder Society Group. (Cause yes, some groups don't make it. :( )
A Few BUT Important Ground Rules:
1) No flames or fights will be had here. As this thread may or may not be heavily lurked by Masters Compton and Brock, any "jerk/troll" like behavior will not be tolerated and will be banned.
2) Please use spoiler tags when talking about special boons, adventures or meta-plot themes.. (I admit that I am bad about them from time to time too. But let's all keep ourselves accountable here.)
3) I am not perfect, and so I may not say what you may want to hear. But it will be the truth, and always honest. Take it what you will and know that I do not mean to be spiteful or angry in anyway when I respond. The written word via the internet is so good at making one sound like they are mad when they are indeed not.
4) What may work in advice, may not work in practice. But try it before you knock it!
5) I will not sit here and have rules discussions with this thread. I ask that unless Master Compton or Brock says it's okay, that any VO's who pitch in here, do the same. This is strictly for logistics questions.
6)No judging. We all come from different societies and groups. How one group does things may be different from another, but it's important to allow those who wish to learn the space and right to do so.
Ready... Set.. GO!
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My Pathfinder Society Organizing Cred
I was the organizer of one of the craziest societies in all of my area: The Solano/Yolo Pathfinder's Society. We are a part of the bigger community known as the Northern California Pathfinder Society. But they go by their bigger name: The Bay Area Pathfinder Society.
Yes, I come from the realm of the great masters Azmyth, Daethon, Sarta, Verdgis and Master Painlord... Painlord's Tenets of PFS are words I still live/game by as if he were Aroden himself.
Although many rumor-mongers and haters, stated that my area was nothing more than a bunch of rule breakers, I am here to state, that my realm, knew the rules SO WELL, that they bent them as far as they could go.. Boy were they then, and now still impressively good at it. If you see their Facebook group posts to date, I bet they are still coming up with hundreds of build ideas and running endless threads talking about stats and feats. (Which is not a bad thing, but something they are infamous for.)
So for two years, I ran the organization, keeping down the insanity as much as I could muster and continued to spread the good word of PFS to all. In my two year tenure, we expanded to two other locations, one in Benicia CA, and one in Davis CA. Benicia, did not survive, while Davis is still thriving today.
Add on top, I was mad enough to organize conventions as well. I started doing that in March of 2011, when I for the first time ran an entire room by myself. Now I had 6 years of convention organization experience prior to this, but only as a minion, and not as an actual leader. I remember distinctively writing my first convention schedule, and how nerve wracking it was to get feedback from this one person, who cut down every single entry in the schedule and made me feel like I was a total loser. (That person, would eventually be one of my favorite people in PFS.) I remember calling and speaking with Azmyth every week for the month leading up to that convention and all the time he having to say to me: "It's okay. You will be fine."
And then came the convention.. Where I met the first other woman organizer I had ever met in PFS by the name Verdigis.. And I met the guy who totally made me feel like a loser as an organizer when he cut down my schedule via email (but eventually became one of my favorite people in PFS) and he is known as Sarta.. It was also the weekend that I GMed a game for the guy who would eventually become my Venture Captain and mentor. He is known as Daerthon. These people, became my support and with time my friends. So I looked (and still look) forward to every convention and game day that our paths would cross.
So needless to say, I was hooked.
So the convention came and went, and as our organization grew, I grew alongside them. Learning how to deal with difficult players, dealing with difficult people, how to handle boisterous and distracting players. How to handle those with serious mental issues, and those with physical handicaps as well as social ones. All of our realms grew, like wildfire, and they were some of the best times.
When August of 2013 came around and I started planning for my 3rd year of tenure, I got a rather interesting surprise in my personal and professional life. I took the job of a lifetime teaching adults. But the summer before, on top of my new position, with all of it's insanity took it's toll as well. My Society, along with my exhaustion and good conscience thought it was best for us to separate and go our own ways. So I left my area, and decided further, that it was best to not return to it for a while, if not indefinitely.
So instead, I traveled to the my other areas, whom had also grown, but I had not the time, nor energy to go out and meet them. So since then, I have been gaming, GMing and mentoring the best I can to those who welcome me. I still also run conventions in my area, and now look for more options to bring more games to my friends where I can by utilizing online gaming, Play-By-Posts which I should do more of, and reading all those books, I used to just use as reference and a mandatory book check against my players.
And that's my story. It's still ongoing, I don't know what the future will hold, but people will want to know where my experience comes from and so that's my tale.
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Lady Ophelia:
On Logistics. From what I have read above you do a lot of convention organising. Now do you mean that you do the PFS organising in a prexisting convention or that you have actually done the whole thing: ie catering calls, booking of rooms, finding out accomodation etc?
If its more of the first, how do you deal with the conventions working around a default 4 hour slot? Considering a Society scenario is supposed to run up to 5 hours (and can often), do you try to stress this to the overall convention organiser or is it a case of 4 hours will have to do?
If you are organising your own con without the strictures of the main convention organisers, do you try to organise 5 hour slots knowing that its likely you might only be able to get in 2 scenarios in a row per day? Or do you standardise to 4 hours?
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Lady Ophelia:
On Logistics. From what I have read above you do a lot of convention organising. Now do you mean that you do the PFS organising in a prexisting convention or that you have actually done the whole thing: ie catering calls, booking of rooms, finding out accomodation etc?
If its more of the first, how do you deal with the conventions working around a default 4 hour slot? Considering a Society scenario is supposed to run up to 5 hours (and can often), do you try to stress this to the overall convention organiser or is it a case of 4 hours will have to do?
If you are organising your own con without the strictures of the main convention organisers, do you try to organise 5 hour slots knowing that its likely you might only be able to get in 2 scenarios in a row per day? Or do you standardise to 4 hours?
Hi Matthew,
I guess you get "firsties" but this is a great start!
So my convention experience is a combo of both. I've done the "Big Convention stuff" and the "PFS Convention Stuff" so they can easily go hand in hand from time to time.
So dealing with the dreaded 4-hour slot is a beast I do admit. In BAPS, (Bay Area Pathfinder Society) we run a standardized 4 hour slot convention weekend. Most conventions we work with allow us to do what we so desire so long as we work within the convention framework. We do have a few conventions that require us to get the most amount of slots in as possible as well to provide quality gaming to their attendees.
With the rise of longer adventures that we have seen in Seasons 4 and 5, it's been a little harder to fit everything into those 4-hour slots, but here is some tips that may help with that.
- When we build our schedules, we of course want to book the new shiny good stuff. But we also put in our schedule some oldies but goodies that fit into the time slot. Adventures like Penumbral Accords, Mists of Miwangi, Intros, We Be Goblins 1 & 2 are all great adventures, that can easily be run in a 4 hour slot. They are also great intro to PFS adventures for new players so that we can handle walk-ins accordingly as well.
-We ALWAYS leave an hour gap between games. This is for food, finishing up chronicles, building issues. But it's there for the most common reason, to finish up a game that ran too long without overlapping into the next slot's game.
-If we have a special or adventure that we know for a fact that it is going to take a longer time, we will move that adventure into a two-slot or three slot format. Adventures like Thornkeep, Older Modules like Fangwood Keep and even some Sanctioned AP play games goes into these slots. This allows for those who want to play those the option to play in a longer format without issues.
Now, *I* have never run my own convention. If I had it my way, it would depend on what my PFS groups would like. I know some groups that do 3-slot days, and they do 5 hour slots which means they work, 9-2, 3-8, 9 to 1am.. And that works for them! Us BAPS players however, like sleep, so we stick with a 9-1, 2-6, 7-11 format.
Also, as I know there are a lot of newer adventures that are taking longer to complete like The Hellknight's Feast, I would give the option of a two-slot if the players and GM were okay with that. Now that doesn't mean they will agree, but there are options that so long as all parties involved are okay, you can work with the time slots to get the best quality game and keeping the time.
Now there is an additional caveat: You have to keep your GM's on point and make sure they understand that time management is essential to success. So they need to make sure that they are ready out of the gate. A GM prepared, saves loads of time!!
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Hi RainnyDayNinja,
Thanks for your questions, these are also good ones indeed. While these are two similar topics, I am going to answer them separately so that I give the proper time to both questions.
What can an organizer do to turn the passive "takers" into active participants in a community?
First, there as no such things as "Passive takers". This is a terrible oxymoron. So let's use a better term for these types of players instead I will call them "Active Takers" because in order for them to be taking something from the community they have to be "active" in it.
To formally define an "active taker": An active taker is one, who contributes NOTHING to the community and organization besides filling a seat in a chair. Takers do not GM, help out with the administrative roles, or support the organization in a supportive format besides just coming to play for 4-5 hours, saying thank you and leaving.
There are many reasons for active takers, some of the most common are below:
- They may be new to the area, or they may be new to PFS/Pathfinder and so they want to get their bearings before getting invested to see if it's for them.
- They may have personal/professional restrictions keeping them from getting in too deep with an organization. (I see this with military players as they are always moving around.)
- Finances can sometimes also play a role. I know players who do not even own Core Rulebooks due to our not-yet awesome economy. (Although I believe the worst is over.)
-My least favorite reason for active takers is that they are not even interested in PFS. But they are instead, looking for players for their home campaigns with no regard or respect to the organizer. (That is their choice, but I don't like that one. This is why the internet exists people!)
So how do you solve this problem? There are a few ways you can go about it.
First, if you haven't set your GM schedule then do so IMMEDIATELY. And tell your players that you are only going to be able to do this on the following dates... By setting your schedule, you allow your players to work with you and either they will step up and help out, or not. If they do not step up, KEEP YOUR PLANNED SCHEDULE. If it fails, then it wasn't meant to be, but many times, someone steps into the roll to keep the games going.
If you are like me, and have a problem with saying it properly, feel free to take the following box text and paraphrase to fit you:
Now you tell me, "Lady Ophelia, no one stepped up!" Well then my answer to that is "Oh Well." But the important part is that you let your community know that you also have a life to lead, and you aren't going to run this whole boat by yourself. I know many GM's (myself included) who did the grind for a long time without keeping a schedule and they got immeasurably burned out as a result because they never got a break. But by pro-actively allowing your group to decide whether they wish to game or not, does wonders for the strength of the community.
Now let me say this also: you may get the response of "Well a lot of my players come from home games and just want to play when they come to PFS.." This is acceptable, and some of my best organizers that I have met and worked with come from home games and are attempting to get a break from those. But these types, immediately know and understand what the "GM Grind" is like and are usually the first ones to start a rotation with you as well. If they are not, keep to your schedule. 9 out of 10 times, these types wait till right before the day or two before the game to step up, but they will do it.
But now comes another counter-argument: "But I've GMed before.. It's not for me." This counter-argument is a rather slippery slope. Many times, people have GMed in other systems or even in PFS and felt like it wasn't for them. This is also an acceptable argument, so long as they gave it a genuine shot first. Being a GM is not for everyone...Let me repeat this: Being a GM is NOT for everyone The GM life is a very complicated and hard life of dealing with all sorts of people from all walks of life. And quite frankly, I would rather a game not take place than to run a terrible one. Because at least you can say "Oh well" to the game that didn't happen. But you cannot ignore the game that went terribly because someone who wasn't ready/not meant to GM, ran a game and everyone hated it.
So for these "It's not for me" types, employ them in another fashion. There are many other facets to the PFS life that a person can actively take part in so that they help you, and the community as a whole:
- I personally, am always in need of some one to help with the reporting of events on our PFS system, so have one of your tech-savvy people do it. (Particularly if this is a person who uses Hero Lab at the table for the running of their character.)
- How are you intaking new players? If you have influxes of new players, have someone be the new players go-to in the building and development of new Players/Characters. (Rules Lawyers make the best builders and new player developers!!!)
-How are you promoting your games? If you have someone who is a regular on Facebook and other social networking sites, make them your "promoter" of the Society. This person will be the one that share with everyone the upcoming games and be the "evangelist" of PFS.
- GM incentives are also always a nice bonus. If you have someone that likes to cook/bake, ask them to share their foodie talents with those who help step up and GM. (This also makes a great incentive for those who are on the fence, jump into the chair for the goods.)
There are plenty of ways to balance the "Active Taker" Roles, and if anyone has additional ideas, feel free to post them below!
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Part Two of RainyDayNinja's Question:
And on a related question, when do you decide to throw in the towel, and let a weak community wither away?
So this one is a little harder to answer.. Organizers by default, believe in the game and organization of PFS. We want nothing more than for it to take off and for us to run successful organizations with loads of happy gamers. But sometimes, life doesn't work for us in that manner like we all wish and hope. Now we here in PFS, want to minimize this as much as possible. When an area chapter/region withers away, people leave the RPG hobby. We do not want this, as the more people who play, the better we are as a whole.
There are many reasons that an organization doesn't make it:
- Not enough of a player base-Self explanatory
- Not enough of a leadership base- Not enough GM's/Organizers
- Change of leadership or loss of leadership -- Life happened and leadership left the community.
- Game shop closes/locations no longer available--Another life happened moment
- Region not conducive to an RPG environment--There are some countries that do not like games that involve dice as they are considered "gambling" or "games of chance". You may see this in Middle Eastern/Asian countries. Also, if the nearest game shop is 2+ hours away from you, that makes gaming a little harder to do regularly.
The short version answer to your question is this:
It's time to move on and let a community stand on it's own when you as an organizer, feel as if you have no more to offer them and you have exhausted all your options to making it work as a leader. Many times, life answers the call for us, and takes us away from our leadership duties and either puts another person in the position, or the community will naturally evolve into another format and/or system.
The longer explanation to your question:
We have to remember that we are all human, and this is only a game. It's a form of entertainment and fun for a lot of people. And for a game group to evolve and move onto something else is normal and a part of the cycle of life. So we as a community have to be okay with that. Many times, this evolves into Adventure Paths and home games that keep the gamers in the Pathfinder family, which isn't always a bad thing.
Organizers from the top to bottom can agree with me on these next statements: We are volunteers, and we do not get paid to do this work. It's not a prize that you win either. Being an regional area/local chapter organizer is a self-less and unpaid job. A job, that is filled with as many rewards as there is challenges and difficulties. But at the end of the day, our lives have to always take precedent over the game. (Even if it's a "way of life" for some of us.)
But there are a few instances where one doesn't want to give it up. But has to, for the betterment of all. Those of us who are in the position of Coordinators and Venture Officers, we love what we do, despite all the hard work and long hours. For me, I wasn't quite ready to give up my tenure as a leader, but my community felt that perhaps someone else needed to take the mantle and run the boat. In those cases, it's best to let go, part ways as amiably as possible and seek out another place for yourself.
Even if you feel as if you may have more to offer, others may disagree. At that point, you have to know and accept that it's not in your hands. Moving on, many times is better than to stay and fight for something that may not be worth fighting over. Sometimes, your leadership style may not be what a community needs to continue to grow. (or not grow depending on the circumstances.) This is when you have to take it with a grain of salt and find another place to lead. If you have any doubts, on where to help a community, be sure to check out the posts above concerning your first question.
Important Disclaimer: ALWAYS, talk to your nearest VO's before you close a chapter of a society or wish to move on from one. Many times, VO's are able to support you in a new way, or if there is no other way and you need to leave the community can supplement your group until someone else steps in..
Thanks RainyDayNinja! Keep the questions coming guys!
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I want to know how there has been PFS in Davis for that long and I never heard about it. You guys must have come in right after I left.
Are you tied in with DRAGON at all? (In which case maybe I can send some people your way.)
Hi Flite!
We have been in Davis since April of this year (2013). So Davis is a recently new endeavor and one of my last in my tenure. We are not affiliated with DRAGON, although if we were able to get enough leadership to run on Fridays, I would love to go down and play on my off weeks!
Shameless promo moment: Our Davis Society, the last I checked runs on Tuesday nights. Their website is here: The Solano/Yolo Pathfinder Society-- Tell them Lady Ophelia sent you and they will take great care of you!
Grandpoohbah, you are up next in my answer queue. :D
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Lady Ophelia: A question I have is- do you have general scheduling recommendations: what mix of games and rotations do you find works really well, or works really poorly (avoid it)? What mix of new and old content? Tiers?
Hi Grandpoohbah!
Thanks for your question, go team BAPS! Where do you hail from so I can come and visit? Let me know!
So this is going to be one of those: "You actual mileage may vary" answers. But I will give as many options as I can... Let me start by saying, that it is important to have a good rotation of low to high adventures to make a successful organization.
Why rotation is important:
- You always have something for new players
- You always have something for veterans
- You always have ongoing room for new and veteran GM's to get their credit for
- You always have oldies but goodies to mix with your new scenarios.
But there are a few things you need to take into consideration when building your schedule:
- How many tables you have of games per week
- How many nights do you play?
- What is the current level range for players?
- What is your current intake of new players to the community?
- What are the levels of the newest adventures?
- Any player/GM requests?
- Regional only: Is there a convention coming up locally, in which new things will be played?
So here's Lady Ophelia's rule of thumb when building schedules:
1) I try not to repeat the same adventure more than twice in a three month rotation. So for example, if I see that The Sanos Abduction is played in June, I try to avoid placing that in a schedule until September at the earliest. Now granted, that doesn't always happen, but it's one of those things that helps the issue of "I've already played this!" in my groups.
2) I will only override rule #1 for two exceptions: player request and GM request. If a table of players request (Minimum of 4 or more) an adventure and/or a GM wishes to run the adventure, I'll put them on the schedule.
3) Your tier layout is going to vary heavily on the amount of tables you run in your area. At our insanest, we max at about 3-4 tables of games. So for us, what we would do, is we split those tables. One would be a 1-2 or 3-4 depending on adventure. Then we would have a mid (5-6) tier, a high tier table (7 and up) and then I would change it up from there.
4) If you are running smaller groups, then I rotate the adventure tiers offered. For example: If one week, I only had one or two tables, I would have one table always be a 1-2, and then the other table go back and forth between 3-7, 5-9, and 7-11.
5) There was also a time, and it was usually the end of the month, we would run a "High Tier Play" night, where all we would run is 5-9's and 7-11's. Ironically, these nights were when we would get the most visitors from fellow regions. But for those who are in the higher level range, they get a little bit of fun time. Also, our GM's who regularly GM the lower tier games, any times take advantage of the high tier night to game with their higher tiered character.
6) If you are one of those types that is always running around like a madman, the best thing to do, is to delegate this task out to one of those "Active Takers" that we spoke about earlier. Let them ask the players and chat with them about things, and then have them make a "tentative schedule". This empowers your community, and if they don't like the schedule they wrote, then they will think about it going forward when it comes time to write the schedule again!
But I know this is only my ways of doing it. I bet there are others who may have other options or ideas. If you do, please leave a note!
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Thankyou for the quick reply.
This actually came up because whilst I was in a game of You have what you hold this past weekend I noted that there was no way known that we could of got it done in 4 hours. We ended up going the full 5 hours. Season 4-5 appear designed to go that full distance and I am concerned (and I think rightfully) than what cons have done in the past is simply 'good enough' for the newer scenarios when it is quite obvious that it is a poor fix.
When you shorten up the scenario, you are essentially shortening up what the pc can do in that scenario. Whilst many scenarios can get derailed by the metagame or a particular funny npc, denying the ability to essentially 'roleplay' could provide just as much detriment as trying your best to fit in as many games as you can in a day's play. Its a double edged swords of sort which sadly impacts PFS far too frequently because more often than not we are hemmed into pre existing conventions that stress more is better. More more and then more.
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Be Advised, this post is a bear!
A loaded question,
How do you handle mustering slots?
Greetings Master Brittian!
Thanks for your question, I am very excited and honored that one of my new GM idols has asked me a question. So I will do my best to answer it.
Now the thing is, mustering slots for me is not a loaded question. But my answer will be long, and could get resistance from others who believe their way is the best way for them. So this one goes under a "Your Mileage may vary" category... But try if you can and see how it goes first!
BAPS/Nor-Cal PFS is a HUGE organization at this point. We now have over 21 gaming groups in our organization. We now game every day of the week! (With a few more on the way in 2014!) If we were a business, we could easily file for a LLC tax status.. (Can't though, already checked.) So your next question is then: OMG how on earth do you guys ever survive conventions with all these groups together in one place? Easy... We prepare in advance!
So here is: Lady Ophelia's, Lady Verdgis, and Master Painlord's Mustering 101..
Step One: USE WARHORN...Although I personally have never been a huge fan of it in my area, it's been a total lifeline in our communities come convention time!!! Now with Version 2.0, I can keep almost all my games in one place. It's nice. :D
Step Two: The Week Before Convention, Close your signups. We shut down a little early on purpose. This is to stop the moving of slots everyone seems to have a bad habit of doing the week of con, and then, if you have players that haven't paid, you can work with them and work on getting it together before convention. Also, if we need to move GM's around, we can do so without having the whole table move around nine times.
Step Three: The Muster Process! There are three big things you need to do when mustering, which are Steps A-C below. You do these steps BEFORE convention on an Excel spreadsheet or a Word Document with tables, whatever works for you. When you complete all three steps, then you print the sheet, and post it on a door NO SOONER than 15 minutes before the next slot begins!
I first make sure I have enough GM's! (But that's another conversation)
I will then split the tables first by level range and appropriate tiers.
Finally, I would then break them as follows: Combat (fighters, barbs, rogues), Divine (Clerics,Oracles, Inquisitors), Arcane (Wizards, Sorcs, Magus), Support (All the other classes of flavor such as Bards, Summoners, Witches, Gunslingers, Rangers, etc.).
Now granted, you might get some resistance, but if you tell players that you mustered it the way you did to ensure their survivability, then most of the time, they go along with it.
A little insider's tip: if you are a group of players that want to stick together and game together, we have a code in our area where you would put a group name in parenthesis next to your name. If you use Warhorn, put the group name in your last name slot.
When I see this in a muster, after I complete Step A, I will then do my best to keep these groups together. So John & Andi, Brent & Rich, and Venus & Nate will muster in the same tables together because they game in the same group. (OOC: This would be a pretty awesome table in real life.)
Big Disclaimer: While we do the best we can to meet Step B for all, it does not always fall that way. Our players know, that if we have to we will break up groups so that we can meet the needs in Step A. When push comes to shove, we will group younger players with their parents as priority number one in Step B grouping. So that the parent isn't having to go back and forth. STEP A, ALWAYS TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER STEP B.
So this is done a manner of ways. First, we always leave some walk-in slots available. So that when we have new players who want to get into a game, they have the opportunity to do so. We usually leave these slots for "never played" PFS members as a way of welcoming them into the tribe.
But then we always have that one veteran player... Who waits till the morning of convention to sign up and they stand in front of you trying to get into games that have been open for signups for two months on Warhorn. Normally, these players get "the frown of death" from their local organizers AND convention organizers. (And if your organizer is both.. Well that sucks to be you!)
But after the frown of death, we give them a packet of the slots of the weekend, and then we make them sign up in our "Waitlist" binder. The binder has all the slots of the weekend. If there is room when we get ready to do the final muster of the slot, we will go to the binder and fill from the list top to bottom. Now we have been lucky, and to date, only turned away a few gamers at convention, but this saves confusion and gives a player the option to either wait for the next slots or find another game.
I think this covers most of it.. But if I missed something, my BAPS leaders will jump in and add more.
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What do you do when your attendance, for a regularly scheduled game day, goes up and down like a yoyo?
Sometimes, I have a full table. Other times, like this past session, I wind up waiting at the store, alone, for no one to show up at all.
Add-in sessions like this, where no one shows, and it really grinds away at my energy & willingness to GM.
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Kind of an addendum to both Akerlof and Kinevon's posts.
What are the best things that you can do to gain interest and attendance when starting up at a new location?
Last night, I ran an event where originally 4 players RSVP'd. Then it was down to 3, then 2, and then 1. It ended up with just me running character creation for an old friend of mine (the last one on the RSVP). At what point do you cancel an event? How long do you wait before leaving? Do you show up with 1 GM and 2 players and hope for a walk-in? Do you run for two players and just not give them a chronicle sheet? I'm fine with that, but the players don't seem to like that idea. A little more background, Wednesday nights at this location used to be D&D Encounters but it ended due to lack of interest. One of the VL's runs occasional games there on Saturdays and the attendance is constantly up and down. A great comic book shop and a good amount of gaming stuff, but organized RPGs just don't seem to get off the ground there.
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What do you do when your attendance, for a regularly scheduled game day, goes up and down like a yoyo?
Communication is key.
We've had a similar issue online before. As a rule, if we don't have at least 3 players 24 hours before the game, it's cancelled. That's to allow players to make other plans rather than committing to something that's unlikely to even happen. If we didn't do that, they'd be less likely to accept games in the future.
If possible, we'll actively ask individual players who accepted if they're keen to play or better off postponing in the hopes of a better game another day. It's easier again if they're usually in the chat room, because they get the earliest notice about it and can stay updated.
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More more and then more.
So this is a serious ongoing problem with Season 4 and 5. Unfortunately, we brought some of these problems on ourselves.
We demanded more things!!
We demanded roleplay, creative solutions and to not be "murder hobos"!!
We are getting all of those things...To which I as a gamer and roleplayer, am grateful for.
But the problem is our rules and policies, concerning the time we have to game did not change. It is still written in the rules that we cannot be gaming more than 5 hours. Now there is an addendum stating that if you are in a non-convention format, you are not bound to this rule. But as we are a "Run as Written" Society, we look at the first sentence of that rule, and nothing else. Which causes a rather big conundrum.. Do we cut the quality of our games for the sake of time or because we had a great roleplay sections, but STILL have to go through three combats in order to get the 1XP?
This is something that leadership will have to address sooner before later. But until then, I can only state that it is in your best interest to always keep a timekeeper at your table and always keep the group moving. Have your maps pre-drawn, have your initiative tracked either by you or by another player. Being prepared is half the battle in keeping your table together and everyone finishing on time.
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I thought you had to go through 3 encounters. Not 3 combats.
Role play confrontations and puzzles are also encounters.
According to current rules you are correct.. (Although if I am to be corrected, I welcome it.)
But here in lies the dilemma: you roleplay an extended play of time, and you CANNOT cut anything out of the scenario or change the scenario based on our rules of RAW. If there are four combats and a few more traps on route to the chronicle sheet and you have less than an hour to go through it, you are going to be running a little late than planned because your table focused on only one section versus the entire rest of the scenario.
This is the major issue we have in PFS. We want more, but only have so much to do in so little time. What gets left out on the table? This is not something I am here to decide, but it is something that we as an organization will encounter over, and over, and over.
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I don't mean to skip the "How To Start a Society" quesions. But I am suffering from a rather nasty stress headache, so you will see my two-part starting a Society post tomorrow (11/15/13), when it has passed.
What do you do when your attendance, for a regularly scheduled game day, goes up and down like a yoyo?
Hi Kinevon!
So when it comes to inconsistency issues there are a few things you should consider:
-When you play
-Where you play
-The current season (winter, summer, etc.)
-Who & How are you promoting games?
But before you throw in the towel, here are some tips:
Chat with your Venture-Officers: So they just don't put on Red/Green shirts to look pretty. They are there to help boost your community in anyway they can. They are your mainlines to helping, because they can promote your group on other sites, and if you are in need of a place to promote your games, well nine out of times, they are the ones running the sites for you to promote your games!
Chat with your gaming location: If you game at a friendly, local game shop, then chatting with them to get additional support is good. More players in the shop = more of an opportunity for them to buy and support the shop.
Facebook: You would be surprise how much Facebook can grow groups! Check first to see if there is a local chapter or group nearby and bounce off of them. Or create your own and make some postcards promoting the group!
Above all things, there is one major rule in organizing/GMing that you should remember: Persistence Pays. On average, most groups take 6 months to 1 year to get off of the ground. Being an organizer is not an instant gratification job. It takes time and it takes work. There is a saying that goes: "You gotta show up, to go up." and in organizing, it's very much that. The more you show up, you show that you are committed, and people will take notice of that and support you.
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Huh. Pardon me. Not sure how to intelligibly respond.
Local area is on our third VC, and have had from 0 to 4 VLs, currently at 2.
Not sure what "additional support" my local FLGS, where I run my tables at, can provide.
And, on persistence, I first started GMing PFS at this location in October or November of 2010. Not sure how much more persistant I can be.
Current plan, from my last remaining player from the AP, is to try and get a group together, on the same Saturdays I am running DD on, once DD ends, to run a different (because I am burnt out on the other one) AP, once we hit the new year.
So, October's game, I had 4 or 5 players. November's game, I had none. And, from last year's experience, may not see enough players there for a legal table until March or so.
So, after this long a time, do I just drop back and get my AP running, and let someone else, like the local VOs, try to get PFS going reliably at the store, or do I bite the bullet, risk burn-out, and keep going?
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Hi Kinevon,
My apologies if my original response left you in a state of WTF.. Based on the information that you previously had given, my original answer was more generalized for those who may be new to the organization business of the community. But as you have left some additional information, I can in better detail answer your question.
So I will break down my response based on your information:
-How often do you talk with your VO's? They may fluctuate, but keeping an open line and sharing with them your struggles, can kick people into gear. If they are unwilling to help you, or it may be hard for them to get to your location, they can at least provide additional ideas to help you get your area into gear.
-If possible, schedule a game day, and invite them to the location so that they can talk with your group and get a feel of the situation.
So here is the thing, if you are what "additional support" your FLGS can give, you may want to consider asking them, what they can offer to help boost attendance:
- Do you guys have a discount on game days?
- Do you have a special for GM's/Players that join in?
- Are they promoting the games via their social networks that they have such as Facebook, email lists, etc.
- Is the day you host PFS a busy or slow one? Usually slower days are easier to coordinate, but hard to populate. But if you are on a busy day, then you may have the exposure, but it may be hard to expand to a better night.
-The season of the year is also hard as well. As we are in the fall/winter of 2013, there is just a natural slump of players. A majority of this is the holidays and end of year duties. Your shop may want to take advantage of the slump with additional sales that can help get bodies.
You shop should be just as involved as you are to get players in the door and into the seats. If they aren't doing anything to help, then ask them why they aren't and what you can do to help. Sometimes it could be something simple like a change in date and time, other times it can be more complicated, but you may have a better idea on where you shop stands.
- Now concerning the issues of dropping players, one of the things I did, was that I started an online group on Facebook for my campaign. I use it to schedule game days, as well as allow players to keep in touch with me about certain updates and issues, so before I walk out of the door, I know if I am going to have a full table of players or not. I would encourage that not only for your AP games but for your PFS games as well.
-Now perhaps, it may be best to take a short rest this holiday season, and talk with your officers about getting a consistent group in your area. Sometimes, a break is what you just need to allow the group of players to move in alignment to your area.
I hope this is a little more helpful, but if you are in need of more, feel free to leave more and I will do my best to help.
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Finally getting to these questions!
How do you identify and approach new venues (game stores, other places, colleges) about starting up a game night?
Hi Akerlof!
First, thanks for your patience in waiting for an answer. Furthermore, welcome to the greater organizer's community. You are in for quite an adventure!
First, some terminology that you might see me use...
- Chapter: local society area where you play-FLGS, Pizza Parlor, College Campus, Conventions (cause yes, conventions are also chapters of PFS play as well!)
- Coordinator/Organizer: The one who is the point of contact for the society chapter.
- Area Organizer: One who is a coordinator/organizer of more than one Society Chapter location
- Venture-Lieutenant (VL): An Area Organizer that reconized by Paizo. Will usually be overseeing of multiple organizations at once.
-Venture Captian (VC): An Area organizer that is reconized by Paizo. VC's usually over see a grand expanse of location. Many times they will cover states, or big regions.
So.. Now that I have the lingo out of the way, here is my "New Society Checklist!"
1) Find your nearest VC/VL and get in touch with them. They are able to coach you through whatever specific questions you may have. They also will have additional information to give you if the location you are interested in hosting has additional questions.
2) Gather your resources: Get onto our GM Shared Prep, and check out our "Coordinator's Handouts" and there are flyers and information bits you can use to share Pathfinder Society in our area.
3) If you have a location in mind, then there is a really easy way to go about starting a society chapter: Go and ASK!!! If you are bad at being forward, then feel free to take some of the following notes below:
At this point they may have a few questions. Questions are good cause it means they are intested in hosting you! If you don't have the exact answer, this is either a good time for you to pass on the information, or you can easily say you don't know and find out.
4) If the location is cool with that, be sure to get some information such as website and FB if needed to promote the location.
5) Now you set your date! If you have GM's tell them this date as well and be sure to share it with everyone, VC/VL's, and even nearby areas if you have any.
6) When game day comes, be sure to have everything you need: Pregens, sign in sheets, scenarios, chronicles, and any other additional needs.
7) Be early for those whom have questions, and to check the sheets of all players as needed.
8) Run the game, have a good time.
9) Stay after a few minutes, answer any last minute questions and resolve any issues.
10) Follow up for the next game date and follow up with any applicable leadership members.
11) Repeat steps 6-10.
Now mind you, this is just the short checklist, if there is something more specific you are looking, just leave a message below and I am happy to give more information.
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Question: As an organizer, have you had to deal with repetitively difficult/disruptive/abusive players? What worked? What didn't work? What would you recommend?
Hi The Fox!
Thanks for your question! Sorry for the delay, been recovering from colds and writing Pathfinder stuff.
Now when it comes to dealing with "difficult players", there are many different types of the difficult player. So feel free to respond with a situation or email me privately.
Why Difficult Players Exist
- Social Akwardness
- New To Game/Area/Group
- Misunderstanding/Lack of Effective Communication
- Learning/Mental Disabilities
Core Things To Do To Deal
The number one thing you have to remember is NOT TO GET MAD. You have to exercise extreme patience with those who get under your skin.
Now this is a little counter-culture from what I have been seeing and hearing from other groups, but try this as well. I have found that getting to know the player away from the game table, helps in better understanding why the difficulties come along. When you build a relationship with players at and away from the table, you learn their quirks and how to better handle them when they are at your table. It also builds rapport. So when you have a good session, those players will go on and talk with you
If a player is seriously being all bad, I will give one "at table warning" politely letting them know, to knock it off. If it continues, I will then take a break and have a private chat with that person. Then I chat with them letting them know and giving them a chance to act right. If not, you will stop the game, hand them a chronicle sheet and ask them to leave the game.
What also has worked for me, especially if I have a talkative table, is that I get the interactive and have them help me with things such as initiative and time keepers. This keeps them from getting too far into boredom, that they get easily distracted and start talking more than necessary.
If a person has a serious disability like dyslexia or autism, I do my best to pair them with players who compliment it. For example, those with reading/learning issues, I'll pair with rules lawyers, cause they will be able to help explain the rules, instead of making them read it.
These are just a few examples. And I hope that they help. If you need something deeper, feel free to ask.
These have been great questions so far, I hope that there are more to come.
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A few questions about running a Chapter at a FLGS.
What do you do when...
...the folks at the FLGS who asked you to come in and run PFS are no longer there and there's no real support from the FLGS?
...you're the organizer and primary GM, and the number of players looking for a game exceeds a legal table size?
...you manage to get someone to volunteer to run another table. Who provides them with scenarios when you're having to pay for your own already?
Just not sure who is responsible for what.
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First off, fantastic work in this thread.
Here's my question. Say you have one location, a FLGS that's been really supportive. You want to branch out to another FLGS, a competitor, without burning bridges with the guy who's been so supportive. What's your advice?
Hi Charlie!
Thanks for your question and support! It's a really good one as there are many other groups who are in the mutual issue.
Now before you branch out into another shop, it's important to understand, that you have to have numbers and players to support two shops to begin with. If you spread players too thin, you are setting yourself up for a broken community to begin with. Which can be a very dangerous thing. But it is understandable, in certain regions in my realm, there are players that only go to certain shops due to preference and "the nature of gamers" as I call it. So it is not wrong to expand to other shops, but I can see some of the dilemma as well.
If you wish to move to have another day, have enough people and demand, then here are some things to do:
1) Get another contact person to run that specific shop. Store coordinators are an invaluable resource. It allows shops to work in tandem with someone without feeling as if you are being biased. If there is someone that is working with them and their needs. Make sure it's someone you trust and are okay with sharing the workload with.
2) As soon as you can, find a representative for the other shop as well. This allows you to go back and forth easily, nurture both shops and not be biased to either one.
3) If you have a VC/VL nearby, it helps to get them involved in the expansion. Many times the VO's can do the expanding for you and not have to worry about any hard feelings whatsoever.
4) Make sure the days don't overlap. If one is on Tuesday, schedule the other for Thursday so that both days get their time, and your fellow players can have the option to go back and forth and support both shops.
I hope this helps Charlie, and if you need more help, don't hesitate to post back.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Lady Ophelia,
How do you hold on to the super veteren players. The guys who have not only played 90% of the scenarios, but have GMed 80% of them as well.
I have been getting a lot of feedback lately of "Well, I haven't been coming to game because no one schedules anything I haven't played / run."
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A few questions about running a Chapter at a FLGS.
What do you do when...
...the folks at the FLGS who asked you to come in and run PFS are no longer there and there's no real support from the FLGS?
...you're the organizer and primary GM, and the number of players looking for a game exceeds a legal table size?
...you manage to get someone to volunteer to run another table. Who provides them with scenarios when you're having to pay for your own already?
Just not sure who is responsible for what.
Hi Skarre!
Thanks for your post, these are also great complicated questions. Here are a few trips that can help:
the folks at the FLGS who asked you to come in and run PFS are no longer there and there's no real support from the FLGS?
I would talk with the FLGS and see what is up. Perhaps they do not know what PFS can do for their shop. As we are in the age of the "Magic Boom" a lot of shops are all caught up in it, as a result they somewhat forget that there is more to the business besides Magic. So sometimes just a simple chat to get more buts in the seats does the trick.
If they are still not convinced, ask them what would make them interested? Would a visit/email from a nearby VC/VL help? Or are they looking for something more tangible? Don't be shy, ask them why?!
...you're the organizer and primary GM, and the number of players looking for a game exceeds a legal table size?
So it's important that you have something that handles your signups. So if you have a Warhorn, Meetup or even a Facebook site for your games where players can sign up in advance. If they don't sign up, and there are no other volunteers to help out, then you have at least your sign ups and they will understand that in the future they need to sign up in order to not get turn away at a table. I hate to turn players away, but sometimes it's a needed evil. I have to reward my players who take the time to be considerate and sign up.
Also, if a shop sees, that you are turning away players because there is not enough people to help out, then they will come up with additional ways to help you. Because if the ones who walk away leave, the shop loses as well.
..you manage to get someone to volunteer to run another table. Who provides them with scenarios when you're having to pay for your own already?
So Society Rules state, that sharing digitally is a NO-NO.. It's tempting, but don't do it. It comes with a terrible price. BUT.. If you print it out, there's nothing wrong with that. In fact it's better, cause then you have an adventure on hand at all times for a GM to get ready to run. One of the things I did as an Organizer is that I have a library of adventures in which GM's can choose from if they need to get a game up and running. I know some leaders who have complete "Prep Kits" which also include statblocks and any cheat sheets needed.
But in case you don't know what are good "Pick up and go" scenarios here is my list. (I know many are going to agree to disagree about this but whatever!)
Lady Ophelia's Mini-Library Recommendations: Levels 1-5
We Be Goblins and We Be Goblins Too (Free RPG Day adventures!)
Intros One: Service To Lore (Season 3 Section)
Mists of Miwangi (0-5)
The Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch (0-14)
The Penumbral Accords (2-11)
Assult On The Kingdom Of The Impossible (1-33)
The Infernal Vault (1-55)
The Frostfur Captives (3-1)
The Night March of Kalkamedes (4-19)
The Veterans Vault (4-18)
Hope that helps Skarre! If you need anymore help, please leave an additional note below!
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Lady Ophelia,
How do you hold on to the super veteran players. The guys who have not only played 90% of the scenarios, but have GMed 80% of them as well.
I have been getting a lot of feedback lately of "Well, I haven't been coming to game because no one schedules anything I haven't played / run."
Hi again Flite!
So "Super Veterans" as you have coined them are a little bit of a rough beast.. As you have partially defined them, Super veterans are those players whom have played and/or GMed a good number scenarios, but to the point where they are out of games to get involved in.
Super Veterans are a double-edged sword. On the one hand, they are some of the best players/GM's in many communities. So when they are not a part of the community because there is nothing for them to play, it hurts because the new ones won't learn from the veterans, and the vets do not get any game time in so their characters gather dust. The number one thing you can do with that, is talk to them and see what they are looking for. Most of "veterans" have a list of adventures we really want to be run/play. Then schedule accordingly. If they haven't GMed it, and you know they are good GM's, encourage them to do so also on those days so that others can benefit from a veteran's experience.
Now it's important to understand, that you aren't going to get all of them. Some veterans, save their new games for conventions and/or special game days/events so it gives them something to look forward to. Some veterans have scheduling issues that are caused by work/life/other responsibilities. (Which is one of the reasons why I don't play as much as I should be.) Some veterans like PFS, but they move onto other games, systems, groups or even move completely to a realm where there is no PFS or is too far away.
There are also the groups of players, who are letting time lapse on purpose. As you know, we only get a certain amount of adventures a year. So for those who decided to take a year off, all of a sudden,they have 20+ episodes to play so they keep their characters fresh. They come back and the entire community is new and different. Which is the nicest part of our community like ours, that we are always evolving, changing and bringing new players into the fold along with keeping the veterans on their toes.
So it's important to not lose hope. Chat with your veterans, and see what is up. Then just go with your gut and your communities needs. At the end of the day, the organizer's main focus is to GROW a community and bring new players in just as much as you need to keep your veterans. PFS with the same 10 people, can indeed get boring. But that new player, can make all the difference and keep players on their toes.
Best of luck to you Flite, anything else I can do let me know!
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Lady Ophelia:
This comes up because of something I read elsewhere.
How do you personally deal with gaming burnout? Or have you ever felt it?
Is it related to 'Con Crud' (of which while everyone talks about it nobody can really define to me)?
In areas with high populations of players where Conventions seems to be occuring every other weekend, how do you manage expectations and it seems the near constant drive to recuit dms for said conventions? Do some games only thrive because of a large number of conventions and flounder when only game days are offered?
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i can at least talk about con crud... this is a term used for people in close proximity to each other and generally a few having cleanliness issues which tends to get people sick.
It does not help that most immune systems are worn down from long periods of activity... some people game 16+ hours at cons. I may or may not be guilty *whistles innocently*.
Burn out is generally a different topic entirely, you have played something for so long your interest wanes and it becomes a chore to complete. I am currently in such a state in a different gaming system... but that is for another time.
the last sentence, i believe is due to the idea that DM's can knock out more tables at a con then they possibly can in a single game day. This will allow them to save gas, and time traveling in just get credit... instead of having to jump around town or towns.
As far as burn out... the best thing to do is take a break and try something new. That is how i got into Pathfinder... i will shut up now, as i just realized your addressing a lady, and not me... *frowns*
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On a side note: "Con Crud" is basically any of a large set of communicable diseases that you can catch in a public locat9iojn with many people around, mainly because someone else there has it, possibly from their kids who caught it at school.
Situations like a Con, where lots of people get into close circumstances, while their immune systems are depressed by not getting enough sleep and nourishing food, can lead to airborn vector diseases spreading like wildfire.
Never fun.