So, lets assume we have an sorcerer with serpentine bloodline. Then, he takes the eldritch heritage feat for arcane bloodline, getting a familiar. Now he got two familiars sources: one from his bloodline and another for his feat. By RAW, what happens? Does he get two familiars?
Any opinions on this? I cant seem to find the raw on this case.
Stealthy Bump.
A quick search didn't find anything concrete, so this is purely my best guess. The closest I found on d20PFSRD was this:
"Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level."
While this doesn't explicitly say you would only get one, many level dependent class abilities stack with each other (ki pool, sneak attack, etc.) Paired with the line "Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object," this makes me assume that while they probably didn't expect one class to grant a familiar twice, multiple familiars should stack as one.
So, a sorcerer of level 12 would have an familiar as if his effective level were 20? This doesnt seems right to me, maybe it should be faq'ed if there isnt an clear raw on this.
So, anyone have a different opinion on this matter? It would be interesting to see what people thinks about this particular corner case.
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I've personally been a part of a lot of posts like these. There's only been one valid arguement, though it has been eluding my understanding. The statement they make, and stand by, is that you can't double count. They say, for example, that if 1 level cannot produce two levels worth of anything, including familiars. This is seen with the wizard 20, with eldritch heritage: arcane feat. They say since they are both dependant on "levels" that they cannot both be counted, even though they explicitly say they stack.
The counter argument is that "class levels" and "character levels" are two different sources.
So, the arguments are either double familiar level or eldritch heritage feat doing utterly nothing? I'm not sure about the double levels thing, but I also dont think eldritch heritage should do absolutely nothing for a sorcerer in this example. Either way, I can see the raw isnt clear here. What the rai should be is another argument.
I don't really see what else it would be.
If Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) stacks with Serpentine bloodline, then you have a familiar at [(Character level -2)+(Sorcerer level -2)].
If they don't stack, you have a familiar at (Character level -2) or (Sorcerer level -2), which ever is higher.
For a character with minimal Sorcerer levels or taking Prestige Class levels that don't increase your familiar, both will provide benefit. If you go straight Sorcerer, then the second option doesn't provide any benefit since their effective level will be the same.
Examples.
Sor 4/Fighter 6/Arcane Archer 10
Normally, level 2 familiar from Serpentine. If Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) stacks, you get a level 20 familiar. If they don't stack, level 18 Familiar from Eldritch Heritage is better than 2 from bloodline.
Sorcerer 10/Prestige Class 10
Normally, level 8 familiar from bloodline. If Eldritch Heritage stacks, level 26 Familiar. If they don't stack, level 18 Familiar from Eldritch Heritage.
Sorcerer 20.
Normally, level 18 familiar from bloodline. If EH stacks, level 36 Familiar. If they don't stack, level 18 for either feat or bloodline.
You can see, only if they don't stack and you take only classes that stack for familiar does the feat provide "utterly nothing." Multiclassing with another base class or prestige class would still allow the feat to benefit you.
As far as, would they stack RAW? What about RAI?
I would say that familiar abilities stack with other familiar abilities, so I don't see a RAW problem with them stacking.
RAI, it doesn't bug me to let them stack since boosting your familiar level is only of limited usefulness. Natural Armor, Intelligence, and very limited special abilities increase with level. But unlike animal companions; BAB, HP, Saves and Skills are derived from the master's.
So A 1st level Wizard with 8 hp and 0 BAB could have a 20th level familiar and it still has 4 hp and 0 BAB.
I see, stacking the levels makes more sense now. I was building a sorcerer with this bloodline and feat, so the ruling would make an considerable difference on my familiar. Also, as the eldritch feat comes later, the levels would stack for the snake, or could I choose another familiar when taking the feat and then stacking the levels for it?
Does stacking the levels is still balanced when improved familiar comes into play?
Well, Improved Familiars don't get anything from their Familiar level that regular Familiars don't get. In fact, they lose Speak with own Kind. So the most important stats will still be based on the master's stats rather than level.
BAB is the same as the master's.
HP is half of the master's.
Saves and Skills are the same as the master's.
So no matter if your effective familiar level is 1 or 20, since it isn't based on level but your actual stat in those areas, the familiar would be the same.
I don't believe the rules support 2 separate familiars. Since familiar abilities specify they stack, you should only have one. I would say that you would need to take the most restrictive familiar (Serpentine requires snake vs. Arcane would allow any familiar).
Thing from the same source do not stack. Since your character level includes all levels from all classes they do not stack. The only character who will be able to make use of this will be someone with other class levels besides one granting a familar. The formula for calculating your effective familiar level will be FamiliarClass+(CharterLevel-FamilarClass-2).
I know people can get animal companions and familiars at the same time. I know certain familiars do not stack - like the tumor familiar from the alchemist class. However, core rules is pretty specific when it says:
"Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level."
Thing from the same source do not stack. Since your character level includes all levels from all classes they do not stack. The only character who will be able to make use of this will be someone with other class levels besides one granting a familar. The formula for calculating your effective familiar level will be FamiliarClass+(CharterLevel-FamilarClass-2).
I don't see the RAW that supports your position that an ability granted from a Feat wouldn't stack with an ability granted from a Class (especially since the ability specifies it stacks with itself), nor that Character level and Class level are the same source.
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"Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level." goes out the window when you're getting the second familiar not from a class, but from a feat.
the rules for familiars were written when only classes granted familiars. so they only had to worry: what happens when you have a wizard/sorcerer? or some such combo where it was classes that granted the ability. they made it clear that those classes stack for determining the familiar's benefit.
if a fighter takes a familiar with arcane heritage, what class has granted the familiar? its based on his character level, instead of his class level. thats when you dive off the deep end and have to decide, do character levels stack with class levels? can you exceed character level?
I'm in the non-double counting camp. less chance to exceed character level ( the realm of the broken munchkin ).
