Shield Stacking question?

[Tharg The Pirate King]

Ok here is my Hypothetical scenario. You have a +1 Large Steel Shield that has been enchanted with Bashing (making it treated as 2 size categories larger for shield Bash and treating it as a +1 Weapon). You also have added Defiant (Humans) (giving it +2 enhancement to ac and dr 2/- when you fight a Human) and because the Shield is a +1 weapon you have added Bane Humans as well (increasing +2 enhancement and extra 2d6 to damage vs Humans).. you are a Shield fighter and have the Shield Master feat. and attack a Human with a shield bash. The way I read the rules.. the Shield vs Human has +3enhancement to ac for the Defiant.. the Shield Master feat converts that to Enhancement to attack and damage... at this point the Bane kicks in and increases the Enhancement by +2 vs the Human and adds +2d6 damage.. making your shield effectivally a +5 weapon .... Am I correct in this?

[Evilserran]

....whuh? That was a confusing read, but i believe the answer is no. The bonus are all enhancement based. Enhancement like pretty much all but dodge bonus, do not stack, ergo, only the highest would apply. I could be wrong though, newish to PF here.

[DM_Blake]

No.

You have a +3 AC (enhancement, Defiant) shield that is also a +3 weapon (Bashing, Bane vs. human). These do not add together, even with Shield Master. Essentially, with Shield Master, you have two different +3 modifiers to attack and damage. It works like an archer with a +3 bow firing +3 arrows - he is not +6 to hit and neither is your shield master.

So, against humans, you are +3 to hit and damage with +2d6 extra damage.

[James Risner]

Tharg The Pirate King wrote:

+1 Large Steel Shield

Bashing (+1 property)

Defiant (Humans) (+1 property and "+2 better than its actual bonus")

Bane Humans as well (+1 property)

Shield fighter and have the Shield Master feat

attack a Human with a shield bash.

Expect Extreme table variance (if the GM doesn't closely read the rules), I strongly recommend you don't try this without working through all of it with every GM you play.

* You can't use a Large Shield as a Medium character.
* You are buying a +1 Steel Shield with Bashing Defiant (Human) Bane (Human) as a +2 weapon and +3 shield or 300+2*2*2000+150+3*3*1000+20 (17,470 gp.)
* You will +5 AC and not lose when attacking.
* You will have +3 to attack and damage with 1d8 (Bashing)+2d6 (Bane)

[Gilfalas]

You are somewhat correct.

While they are all increasing existing enhancement bonuses the Bane and Defiant are increasing differnt TYPES (one is weapon the other one is armor).

The feat lets you add the armor to the attack in addition to your normal attack bonuses.

So while you would be adding all their values on the attack, your actual enhancment bonus never exeeds a +3 since shield bonuses and weapon bonuses cannot stack 'in that fashion' in this case.

You effectively have 2 seperate +3 values (one weapon enhancement and one shield enhancement) for the purposes of offensive combat that Shield Master lets you use together for attack and damage where normally you would not be able to.

James Risner's summary is spot on for the totals exept for the attack and damage bonuses. It would be a total of +6 not +3 due to shield master.

[James Risner]

Gilfalas wrote:

James Risner's summary is spot on for the totals exept for the attack and damage bonuses. It would be a total of +6 not +3 due to shield master.

Which comes down to the table variance. Different GMs will interpret the rules differently, like I do below.

"as if it was" won't add to the +3, it will overlap. So +3 and +3 "as if it was" is +3 = +3

[Darksol the Painbringer]

By RAW, Gilfalas is correct. Both give an unlisted bonus to their respective stats, and since both effects increase the effective enhancement modifier, they stack. RAI, they are hardly intended to work that way.

Taking the example, they are both the same ability (adding to the effective enhancement bonus by 2). Going based off of the factor that similar effects do not stack (this is one of them), the net Enhancement Bonus total would still be +3.

[Quantum Steve]

Shield Master adds your shield's enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus. Except, you already have a weapon enhancement bonus; like bonuses do not stack. In no case could you have +6 to attack and damage in this scenario.

Against the designated creature, a Bane weapon's enhancement bonus is 2 higher than it's actual bonus.

So, which enhancement bonus is it's "actual" bonus? The +3 from ShieldMaster, or it's native +1?

[Tharg The Pirate King]

Quantum Steve wrote:

Shield Master adds your shield's enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus. Except, you already have a weapon enhancement bonus; like bonuses do not stack. In no case could you have +6 to attack and damage in this scenario.

Against the designated creature, a Bane weapon's enhancement bonus is 2 higher than it's actual bonus.

So, which enhancement bonus is it's "actual" bonus? The +3 from ShieldMaster, or it's native +1?

This is my point... if the shield did not have the enhancement increase and was just a standard +2 shield with Bashing.. and you have the Feat.. when you wield your shield its normal Enhancement is +2 not +1.. in the hands of anyone else its +1. This feat changes things. So if Bane increases the Enhancement by +2 making it +2 better, for you that means a +4 and for others a +3. So if that is true then when you have the other Magical effect on the Shield and you bring in favored, the Enhancement starts as a +3 shield and then is increased by +2 to make it a +5 weapon vs your favored. This is how I am reading it, the feat causes the shields Base enhancement on attacks to be replaced with the +3 because it is higher then the normal enhancement of +1 for attacks. The bane quality then increases the base enhancement and since its now a +3 its increased to +5. Its how I would stack because the bane quality increases the base enhancement. To get the base weapon enhancement you cant just use the +1 because it got replaced by the feat. In your hands the shields ac enhancements is ALWAYS the weapons enhancement.. so when the shields ac enhancement increases.. so does the weapons base enhancement. Like I stated.. if its a +2 shield... it would always be a +2 weapon... no matter what.. in the hands of person with the feat, and bane would adjust accordingly.. so it shouldnt matter if the shields a +1 instead.