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I posted you a build that was advanced by the poster I replied to, a fighter with a 7 cha and +48 diplomacy (that was quote from him). To get that sort of diplomacy, someone is spending all their feats on those abilities.
Diplomacy: "You can use this skill to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people. This skill is also used to negotiate conflicts by using the proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem."
Is not the same as Charisma. Being able to roll dice once every 24 hours to negotiate someone into being at best "Helpful" is not the same as being Charismatic, and has little to no effect on personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
If that is how you play at your table, great. Don't start quoting it.
mdt: You were fine with the idea of a low Cha diplomancer when it took enough investment in resources to be impractical. You seemed to object to the myriad of ways to do the same with a minimal feat investment. They're not the same thing.
Is not the same as Charisma
Mechanically it is, because charisma doesn't have many raw uses outside of the social skills.
I play a Samurai(*) with a 12 Strength, a 14 Inteligence, and a 17 Charisma. Those mental stat numbers even went up recently because I accquired an Ioun Stone of +2 Charisma and a Headband of Vast Intelligence +4.
So yeah, I'm a bit of an oddball when it comes to my characters, but its pretty justified in that A) I'm a ruler of a kingdom and B) my character is built around the Intimidate skill. So yeah, I guess I don't fall into the "big dumb fighter" category. Sorry! D:
I call him a samurai for ease of purpose, but he's more of a multiclass monstrosity. Right now, he's Samurai 2 / Fighter (Lore Warden) 5 / Rogue (Thug) 1. Its a fun built built around tripping, feinting, and demoralizing!
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Is not the same as CharismaMechanically it is, because charisma doesn't have many raw uses outside of the social skills.
Except it does.
"Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. It is the most important ability for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to channel energy. For undead creatures, Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.” Every creature has a Charisma score. A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious.
You apply your character's Charisma modifier to:
- Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks.
- Checks that represent attempts to influence others.
- Channel energy DCs for clerics and paladins attempting to harm undead foes.
Bards, paladins, and sorcerers gain a number of bonus spells based on their Charisma scores. The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a bard, paladin, or sorcerer spell is 10 + the spell's level."
That some people tend to hand wave that away or default to other things doesn't mean it isn't in the game. It is specifically aside from diplomacy because it isn't just diplomacy.
Diplomacy governs a very specific set of interactions. If you expand it for your game, you shouldn't be surprised if that means charisma is mitigated in the same way that if you let some add a swim check to melee attack bonus (both strength based) it would impact things.
Your 6 Charisma Barbarian and a 20 Charisma Bard walk into a bar. Who is the person looking for a hero likely to approach first, all other things being equal?
Is not the same as CharismaMechanically it is, because charisma doesn't have many raw uses outside of the social skills.Except it does.
"Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism....
That's fluff. I said mechanically, I'm looking for crunch.
- Checks that represent attempts to influence others.
Which is diplomacy, intimidate, or when you've got dueling charm persons. When else do you try to influence someone outside of a diplomacy check?
Channel energy DCs for clerics and paladins attempting to harm undead foes.
Yes it does casty stuff.
Diplomacy governs a very specific set of interactions. If you expand it for your game, you shouldn't be surprised if that means charisma is mitigated in the same way that if you let some add a swim check to melee attack bonus (both strength based) it would impact things.
What mechanics exist in the game to use charisma on its own? I would argue you're the one expanding things outside of the rules.
Your 6 Charisma Barbarian and a 20 Charisma Bard walk into a bar. Who is the person looking for a hero likely to approach first, all other things being equal?
Depends on what kind of heroing they need. Princess held in the tower of a rival kingdom? The bard. Princess held by an orc tribe? The barbarian.
I play a Samurai(*) with a 12 Strength, a 14 Inteligence, and a 17 Charisma. Those mental stat numbers even went up recently because I accquired an Ioun Stone of +2 Charisma and a Headband of Vast Intelligence +4.
So yeah, I'm a bit of an oddball when it comes to my characters, but its pretty justified in that A) I'm a ruler of a kingdom and B) my character is built around the Intimidate skill. So yeah, I guess I don't fall into the "big dumb fighter" category. Sorry! D:
** spoiler omitted **
So he can talk a lot of smack, but can he actually bang? :p
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That's fluff. I said mechanically, I'm looking for crunch.- Checks that represent attempts to influence others.Which is diplomacy, intimidate, or when you've got dueling charm persons. When else do you try to influence someone outside of a diplomacy check?
No, those were listed above. If that were all it were referring to, it wouldn't need a separate entry.
Diplomacy is to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people.
That is a fairly narrow realm of social interactions, with a fairly narrow set of uses outlined under the skill.
That 6 Charisma Barbarian is limited in personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance relative to the bard. Even if the Barbarian may actually do the job better than the bard, all things being equal (key phrase) the bard "looks" better.
Circumstances change things obviously, the example I give is if the 6 Barbarian saves your puppy and the 20 charisma bard kicks it, that bonus goes out the window for that NPC's perception.
But all things being equal, the 6 Charisma Barbarian is less "attractive" (appearace, personal magnetism, ability to lead, personality) than the 20 Charisma Bard.
Now if someone who was not very charismatic was able to present a deal that was mutually beneficial, I might be willing to be helpful. That person negotiated well. That doesn't mean they have a good personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, or appearance. It just means they were able to convince me that this was in my best interests.
Similarly, if someone was very intimidating, they may not have the best personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
I wouldn't harp on this if it weren't for the fact that most people who say Charisma is "weak" are the same people who weaken it by letting diplomacy do things beyond what is the scope of what is listed.
However you play, if it makes you players happy, isn't bad. But the game doesn't say diplomacy replaces charisma. Quite the contrary.
I wouldn't harp on this if it weren't for the fact that most people who say Charisma is "weak" are the same people who weaken it by letting diplomacy do things beyond what is the scope of what is listed.
However you play, if it makes you players happy, isn't bad. But the game doesn't say diplomacy replaces charisma. Quite the contrary.
If you're going to tell me that -you're doing it wrong, thats why you think charisma sucks- you're going to have to show me some mechanics that go along with the fluff of a charisma check. Specifically you could start with a common situation where I can use charisma but not diplomacy or bluff.
Diplomacy is to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people.
That is a fairly narrow realm of social interactions, with a fairly narrow set of uses outlined under the skill.
This is blatantly false.
Diplomacy changes peoples attitudes about you.
Diplomacy lets you ask people for favors.
Its not a narrow range by any means, it covers 90+ percent of PC NPC interaction.
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I did show you the mechanic. It literally says in the book:
Checks that represent attempts to influence others
And it says this directly below where it says what skills it governs, meaning it isn't referring to those skills.
And I literally quoted the description of diplomacy.
Literally.
"You can use this skill to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people. This skill is also used to negotiate conflicts by using the proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem."
That is what it says. If you think literally what it says is "blatantly false" I don't know what to say to you.
Diplomacy changes "initial attitudes" on a chart under specific circumstance, once per day, relative to the charisma modifier of who you are using it on for 1d4 hours unless the GM decides to make it more.
Or is that also "blatantly false"?
I did show you the mechanic. It literally says in the book:
Checks that represent attempts to influence others
And it says this directly below where it says what skills it governs, meaning it isn't referring to those skills.
Then it should be easy to give me a charisma check that isn't a skill check.
And I literally quoted the description of diplomacy.
Literally.
And then immediately ignored what the skill actually did by assuming that the description was all it did.
That is what it says. If you think literally what it says is "blatantly false" I don't know what to say to you.
The "all it does" is blatantly false because the skill then goes on in great detail how the skill influences others behavior and attitudes towards your character.
Diplomacy changes "initial attitudes" on a chart under specific circumstance, once per day, relative to the charisma modifier of who you are using it on for 1d4 hours unless the GM decides to make it more.
Or is that also "blatantly false"?
That attitude represents everything you cited in charisma: its HOW you influence others. You influence them to be friendly and then you influence them into doing things for you. Calling it narrow is blatantly false: the attitude is EVERYTHING you cited under charimsa.
Local experience in PFS: About 30% of characters have at least one 7 (at least prior to racial modifiers). Probably 10-15% have two+ 7-8 stats. And it's "Kagar" the sociopathic Barbarian with 7's in all three.
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I quoted directly from the skill BNW.
It does what it says it does. If I want change someone's attitude for more than 1d4 hours without 1 minute of continuous interaction that comes one of two ways.
Circumstance (I do nice thing that make the person like me) or I roll a charisma check to influence them, using my personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance to influence others rather than diplomacy to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people.
How do you determine initial attitude? Circumstances and Charisma. How do you decide who the NPCs are most drawn to in the party? Circumstance and Charisma. How do NPCs perceive you? Circumstances and Charisma.
If two people in the party disagree and are trying to convince the NPC to follow one of them...Circumstances and Charisma. If the NPC is decided if they will even bother giving you a full minute of continuous interaction (a long time to give a stranger), Circumstances and Charisma.
Think of it this way. A very attractive person, or a person who looks powerful or important will likely get you to pay attention for a full minute. A homeless guy...not so much.
If you let diplomacy do more than what is actually written under the skill at your table, and you enjoy that great.
But then don't complain that Charisma sucks.
I quoted directly from the skill BNW.
You quoted PART of it and then assume that was all that it did.
or I roll a charisma check to influence them
Citation needed. Where are these mechanics? Whats the DC?
How do you determine initial attitude? Circumstances and Charisma.
Citation needed that charisma has anything to do with initial attitude.
How do NPCs perceive you? Circumstances and Charisma.
This is objectively wrong. They see you according to the diplomacy check, not your charisma.
If you let diplomacy do more than what is actually written under the skill at your table, and you enjoy that great.
But then don't complain that Charisma sucks.
Stop that already. You're bending over backwards to invent a use for charisma checks out of whole cloth and ignoring a huge block of text in diplomacy. That doesn't leave you room to imply I'm the one home brewing things.
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A store keeper (Sally) comes out of the back after pulling out the latest batch of brownies.
She sees 3 new customers (as in, never met them before) in front of her.
Charming Cara, a charming human woman with an 18 Charisma, wearing nice clothes.
Average Anne, an average human woman with a 10 Charisma, wearing nice clothes.
Mousy Mary, a mousy human woman with a 7 Charisma, wearing nice clothes.
All three are very hungry, and all three raise their hands to get service.
Which customer does Sally pick to serve first? There is no minute to use Diplomacy. Which one get's her attention first? Which one does she look at and help first? Remember, Diplomacy takes 1 minute to be used, and by the time you use your one minute, someone else is already paying for their donuts. For YOUR donuts! They are buying all of them! You'll never get your donuts if you don't buy the 3 she has left! How do you get her attention! Quick, no time for diplomacy, what determines which one she picks to help first?
Which customer does Sally pick to serve first? There is no minute to use Diplomacy. Which one get's her attention first? Which one does she look at and help first? Remember, Diplomacy takes 1 minute to be used, and by the time you use your one minute, someone else is already paying for their donuts. For YOUR donuts! They are buying all of them! You'll never get your donuts if you don't buy the 3 she has left! How do you get her attention! Quick, no time for diplomacy, what determines which one she picks to help first?
She picks the one that has just knocked the other two on their butts? ;)
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She picks the one that has just knocked the other two on their butts? ;)
Which customer does Sally pick to serve first? There is no minute to use Diplomacy. Which one get's her attention first? Which one does she look at and help first? Remember, Diplomacy takes 1 minute to be used, and by the time you use your one minute, someone else is already paying for their donuts. For YOUR donuts! They are buying all of them! You'll never get your donuts if you don't buy the 3 she has left! How do you get her attention! Quick, no time for diplomacy, what determines which one she picks to help first?
Sally see's Average Anne, the barbarian, go berserk and begin attacking Cara and Mary, and she screams and runs out the back of the shop. Anne is arrested minutes later, her face stuffed full of belgian cream filled donuts.
Ok, so, nobody got helped first with that answer. Next answer?
:)
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This is a problem with your GM. It's your character, you're free to roleplay it however you like.
Dumping my stats and then #$*($& and moaning when the GM doesn't allow me to use my superior talking skills OOC for my character IC.
I'll allow you to substitute your real life social skills for your characters when we can substitute your real life constitution for your characters.
Just allow me to attach these electrodes to the appropriate body parts before we test your fortitude save.
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Stuff
Perhaps you have never been on the GM side of the screen? Or maybe you just have players who don't do things like this.
It's a subtle way of being passive/aggressive. A bit of mental judo.
If you speak at the table in honeyed words that your character doesn't know, you are setting the terms for any debate over what happened. If the GM says you tick the NPC off, you retaliate with 'what could she possibly be upset about? I didn't say anything she could get that upset over'. Then you demand the GM point out what upset her, so you can avoid it in the future. And yes, I have had players pull this before. Again, we are back to the Player using THEIR skills out of character rather than the CHARACTERS skills in character.
It's no different than a player who has a character who put no ranks into any knowledge skill using his own knowledge of the bestiary to choose his character's tactics. If you are trying to use your knowledge (of diplomacy, of the bestiary, of whatever) when your character has no reasonable way of knowing these things, then you are not roleplaying what you built at best, or cheating at worst.
I will return to my question, which nobody wants to answer honestly. If you want to play James Bond, why are you building Maxwell Smart on your character sheet?
This is a problem with your GM. It's your character, you're free to roleplay it however you like.
Dumping my stats and then #$*($& and moaning when the GM doesn't allow me to use my superior talking skills OOC for my character IC.
I'll allow you to substitute your real life social skills for your characters when we can substitute your real life constitution for your characters.
Just allow me to attach these electrodes to the appropriate body parts before we test your fortitude save.
Whoo hooooo!!!!
This is a problem with your GM. It's your character, you're free to roleplay it however you like.
Dumping my stats and then #$*($& and moaning when the GM doesn't allow me to use my superior talking skills OOC for my character IC.
I'll allow you to substitute your real life social skills for your characters when we can substitute your real life constitution for your characters.
Just allow me to attach these electrodes to the appropriate body parts before we test your fortitude save.
Don't forget to measure his real life HP so we know how much his character can survive. Just put down the plastic first, to cut down on the cleaning bills.
She picks the one that has just knocked the other two on their butts? ;)
Which customer does Sally pick to serve first? There is no minute to use Diplomacy. Which one get's her attention first? Which one does she look at and help first? Remember, Diplomacy takes 1 minute to be used, and by the time you use your one minute, someone else is already paying for their donuts. For YOUR donuts! They are buying all of them! You'll never get your donuts if you don't buy the 3 she has left! How do you get her attention! Quick, no time for diplomacy, what determines which one she picks to help first?Sally see's Average Anne, the barbarian, go berserk and begin attacking Cara and Mary, and she screams and runs out the back of the shop. Anne is arrested minutes later, her face stuffed full of belgian cream filled donuts.
Ok, so, nobody got helped first with that answer. Next answer?
:)
Okay, more serious answer:
She'll most likely pick the highest charisma customer, even if it's subconsciously. As a GM, I'd be willing to leave it down to the dice using their charisma modifiers too.
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Okay, more serious answer:She'll most likely pick the highest charisma customer, even if it's subconsciously. As a GM, I'd be willing to leave it down to the dice using their charisma modifiers too.
So, to clarify (or codify for voting purposes), you're answer is that she would likely go with the high charisma person first. And that should be modeled from a charisma check. And it would be reasonable for a GM to simply do 'take 10' checks in general to avoid bogging down the game?
Thus the order of 'who would she help' would be Cara (check 14), Anne (Check 10), and then Mary (Check 8).
Sorry if it seems I'm being pedantic. Wanting to make sure what you're saying is what I think you're saying is all. About 10% of the thread posters seem to read what they want into someone else's post, rather than what was actually posted. :) Don't want to be one of those 3-4 people in this thread. :)
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I quoted directly from the skill BNW.You quoted PART of it and then assume that was all that it did.
or I roll a charisma check to influence themCitation needed. Where are these mechanics? Whats the DC?
How do you determine initial attitude? Circumstances and Charisma.Citation needed that charisma has anything to do with initial attitude.
How do NPCs perceive you? Circumstances and Charisma.This is objectively wrong. They see you according to the diplomacy check, not your charisma.
If you let diplomacy do more than what is actually written under the skill at your table, and you enjoy that great.
But then don't complain that Charisma sucks.
Stop that already. You're bending over backwards to invent a use for charisma checks out of whole cloth and ignoring a huge block of text in diplomacy. That doesn't leave you room to imply I'm the one home brewing things.
I'm not bending over backwards. I'm reading the rules. Literally, it says that is what charisma does, in the sentence under the skills it applies to.
What is the DC to make someone fall in love with you? Kill their brother? Give you a million dollars? Kick a puppy?
Oh wait, there isn't a specific DC for every circumstance.
I get it. You have diplomacy effect social interactions that take less than a full minute and last for more than 1d4 hours...
Stop saying people who actually only allow diplomacy to do the things listed under diplomacy are wrong.
Stop pretending it doesn't literallye f say Charisma is the check to influence others under Charisma.
And perhaps understand the statement "Charisma is weak" may be influenced by allowing skills to do more than is listed under them.
Okay, more serious answer:She'll most likely pick the highest charisma customer, even if it's subconsciously. As a GM, I'd be willing to leave it down to the dice using their charisma modifiers too.
So, to clarify (or codify for voting purposes), you're answer is that she would likely go with the high charisma person first. And that should be modeled from a charisma check. And it would be reasonable for a GM to simply do 'take 10' checks in general to avoid bogging down the game?
Thus the order of 'who would she help' would be Cara (check 14), Anne (Check 10), and then Mary (Check 8).
Sorry if it seems I'm being pedantic. Wanting to make sure what you're saying is what I think you're saying is all. About 10% of the thread posters seem to read what they want into someone else's post, rather than what was actually posted. :) Don't want to be one of those 3-4 people in this thread. :)
That looks good to me :)
I'm not bending over backwards. I'm reading the rules. Literally, it says that is what charisma does, in the sentence under the skills it applies to.
For charisma you have one sentence of fluff in the overview section of the rules which could be read as pure fluff, a description, OR as something that they just never bothered to give supporting mechanics to.
For diplomacy you have an entire page of crunchy guidelines.
Oh wait, there isn't a specific DC for every circumstance.
There are NO, zero, nadda, NONE mechanics around your alleged charisma checks.
Stop pretending it doesn't literally say Charisma is the check to influence others under Charisma.
charisma is the stat that helps you influence others. Thats different from it being a -charisma check- to influence others.
And perhaps understand the statement "Charisma is weak" may be influenced by allowing skills to do more than is listed under them.
I must have played over a hundred scenarios and modules between pfs and 3.5 under a wide variety of DM's ranging in geographic location, style, and temperament. I have seen TWO charisma checks: one to influence a charmed person as per the spell description, and one DM calling for a charisma check for what clearly should have been either no roll, a handle animal, or a wild empathy check. I have seen HUNDREDS of diplomacy checks. Your contention is that everyone else (including the authors) are doing it wrong because of attaching mechanical significance to one sentence of fluff in an overview section of the rules.
Edit: there are also serious mechanical problems with charisma checks (or any other raw ability check really) They don't scale well with level (if they scale at all), and they're incredibly swingy to the point of almost ignoring the attribute entirely in favor of lady luck.
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It literally says what it does.
"Checks that represent attempts to influence others."
It says those words, below the skill checks.
Diplomacy also says words it says.
"Using Diplomacy to influence a creature's attitude takes 1 minute of continuous interaction. Making a request of a creature takes 1 or more rounds of interaction, depending upon the complexity of the request. Using Diplomacy to gather information takes 1d4 hours of work searching for rumors and informants."
It also says
"You cannot use Diplomacy to influence a given creature's attitude more than once in a 24-hour period. If a request is refused, the result does not change with additional checks, although other requests might be made. You can retry Diplomacy checks made to gather information."
It does not say it effects your personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
It does say "You can use this skill to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people. This skill is also used to negotiate conflicts by using the proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem."
I feel like I'm arguing with someone who claims the grease spell is flammable...
It literally says what it does.
"Checks that represent attempts to influence others."
It says those words, below the skill checks.
I saw that. I pointed out some other interpretations of that from "make charisma checks to influence others"
It does not say it effects your personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
What is your ability to lead if not the ability to get people to do what you want?
How do you get people to do what you want?
Use diplomacy to get them to indifferent or better and then use diplomacy to ask them a favor.
Its, again, the fluff for charisma not matching the crunch, which is a good chunk of why people think its pretty weak.
And again, I'll ask you, where are all of these charisma checks in play?
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We know that Intelligence 2 is animal intelligence. That means monkeys and apes have 2 intelligence. We know that 10 intelligence is average human intelligence. Why is 7 in intelligence retarded territory?
Have you met the average person? Personally i think the German shepherd is getting maligned. :)
Checks that represent attempts to influence others.Which is diplomacy, intimidate, or when you've got dueling charm persons. When else do you try to influence someone outside of a diplomacy check?
I'd say they're useful for impressions and influence that don't involve spending time to laying out a case and persuade (diplomacy), frighten (intimidate), or mislead (bluff). You don't think those specific skills cover every possible attempt to influence an NPC under the sun do you? Sometimes the PC just needs to exude an aura of confidence and inspiration.
Charisma checks are definitely useful when trying to resist being told what to do when under a charm person spell. I'd even use them if two characters (the charmer and a friend of the charmee) were trying to influence the charmed character in opposing ways. The spell says the caster needs to win an opposed roll, but doesn't specify is must be the target's own charisma roll that always must be beat.
And then there are the cases in which a character has invested no ranks in diplomacy, intimidate, or bluff in which case the checks are, effectively, just charisma checks.
If you speak at the table in honeyed words that your character doesn't know, you are setting the terms for any debate over what happened. If the GM says you tick the NPC off, you retaliate with 'what could she possibly be upset about? I didn't say anything she could get that upset over'. Then you demand the GM point out what upset her, so you can avoid it in the future. And yes, I have had players pull this before. Again, we are back to the Player using THEIR skills out of character rather than the CHARACTERS skills in character.
I haven't encountered players who argue about their roleplayed words vs. their characters' mechanical ability to the degree you mention very often, either while sitting in at a table or as a GM. Any player doing that would be problematic, I agree.
However, if someone appears to be roleplaying above their characters' mental abilities it's not fair for a GM to go out of their way and be punitive about things. It's not like every person sitting at a gaming table has years of Stanislavskian method acting training. If the player isn't complaining about his character operating within the mechanics of this rules-heavy system, then no harm, no foul.
Bottom line - the average player who stat-dumps does not demand their characters be treated as highly skilled in mechanically-deficient social/mental areas, and GMs shouldn't expect those players to hyperbolically act impaired just because they have dropped an ability score a few points.
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You use diplomacy when someone is willing to listen to your minimum one minute long sales pitch.
My experience is like mdt. It's more or less a walking take 10 to all NPCs that, along with circumstances, impacts initial attitude and how PC's interact with the characters.
Which...you know...not something that isn't done in most groups based on circumstances. I just kind of think personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance are circumstances that PC's might consider.
Not a crazy concept.
Now if you have a guy with a 6 charisma, unless there is another circumstance going on, how likely is it a PC is going to want to give them a full minute of interaction to even use diplomacy?
Again I go back to the homeless guy asking you for money. He might have a +20 diplomacy, but I'm not giving him the time to use it.
Now if the 6 Charisma guy saved my kitten or demonstrated some reason to talk to him, great.
Meanwhile that 20 charisma Bard...people want to talk to him. Want to give him that full minute, want to interact with him.
Even with diplomacy working, you are only going to be helpful with the very skilled homeless guy for a 1d4 hours, if you give him the time of day, because he's still a low charisma homeless guy. And if he fails his save, you aren't giving him a second chance.
Meanwhile that 20 charisma bard, he might not even need to make a diplomacy check to charm you. You already started off kind of liking him.
And my experience is that the 20 charisma guy is the party face, so the 6 Charisma barbarian isn't the "face" of the group. He isn't what the group is judged on.
The 20 Charisma Bard is.
Which has value.
I'd say they're useful for impressions and influence that don't involve spending time to laying out a case and persuade (diplomacy), frighten (intimidate), or mislead (bluff). You don't think those specific skills cover every possible attempt to influence an NPC under the sun do you?
Yes. Especially given the paucity of examples to the contrary despite repeatedly asking for them or looking through published materials.
Charisma checks are definitely useful when trying to resist being told what to do when under a charm person spell. I'd even use them if two characters (the charmer and a friend of the charmee) were trying to influence the charmed character in opposing ways.
Already listed that rather rare instance.
The spell says the caster needs to win an opposed roll, but doesn't specify is must be the target's own charisma roll that always must be beat.
And it doesn't specify someone else can argue against them either.
And then there are the cases in which a character has invested no ranks in diplomacy, intimidate, or bluff in which case the checks are, effectively, just charisma checks.
Which will in all likelihood fail, because the DC system is set up to account for stat modifiers and skill ranks when it sets the difficulty. Taking out the larger of those two means you're in trouble no matter what. Even with a 20 cha. you're 75% likely to miss a DC 20 charisma check.
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@lifat - A 6 Charisma is someone who is not only notably less charismatic than the average person (10) but exceptionally notably less charismatic.
Simply saying "I'm shy" could be average to slightly below average. 8-11, or a -1 to 0.
I would also expect if I had a 14 charisma that my character be notably above average, and if I had an 18 charisma that I was generally the most charismatic person in the room, and that would be noted and observed by the PCs and taken into account in interactions.
The issue isn't just about "punishment" for low scores. It is also about "credit" for high scores.
A store keeper (Sally) comes out of the back after pulling out the latest batch of brownies.
She sees 3 new customers (as in, never met them before) in front of her.
Charming Cara, a charming human woman with an 18 Charisma, wearing nice clothes.
Average Anne, an average human woman with a 10 Charisma, wearing nice clothes.
Mousy Mary, a mousy human woman with a 7 Charisma, wearing nice clothes.
All three are very hungry, and all three raise their hands to get service.
Which customer does Sally pick to serve first? There is no minute to use Diplomacy. Which one get's her attention first? Which one does she look at and help first? Remember, Diplomacy takes 1 minute to be used, and by the time you use your one minute, someone else is already paying for their donuts. For YOUR donuts! They are buying all of them! You'll never get your donuts if you don't buy the 3 she has left! How do you get her attention! Quick, no time for diplomacy, what determines which one she picks to help first?
*raises hand*
Whoever gets her into thinking thst she is the one who NEEDS to be saved first, for whatever (possibly made-up) reason? (Bluff checks FTW)
*ducks for cover*
Why do you assume charisma 6 is homeless guy. What about a well dressed guy who is so timid that he hides himself away in most situations. Wouldn't that also be charisma 6? And if so.. The second he decides to speak up and interact then how likely is it that you are going to talk to him?
Not very likely. He doesn't make an impression other than 'obstacle to me walking'. The mousy timid character is a classic trope. The really kind of pretty girl with the sweet disposition that has no confidence is the basis for about 80% of the 'young adult' novels on the book shelves, and how she 'blossoms' and asserts herself.
But the person with the 6 charisma who steps up, dressed in fine clothes, get's a bonus to his charisma check, just like a guy with a circlet of persuasion does. The homeless guy is getting a circumstance penalty.
If the 6 charisma guy can't take 10 and make 10 with all his circumstance bonuses, then you're going to keep going right on by him. A good example of this would be the well dressed and earnest young woman who wants to save the Endangered Pygmy Rat who has no self confidence. She holds up her sign, she smiles at people who pass, and tries to get them to put their money in her bucket without actually asking for it (because her charisma is so low, she doesn't interact well) and people walk past her. Her take 10 is 8 (10 - 3 = 7 + 1 (nice clothes)).
Meanwhile, her sister (still with no skill ranks in diplomacy, but with a 20 charisma) with the low cut top and saucy smile on the other corner is cajoling every male that comes along, batting her eyes, swishing her hips, and making doe eyes at them while extoling the virtues of the Endangered Pygmy Rat, and how the cute little things are in so much danger from those big bad oil developers! Won't someone think of the poor pygmy rats! And her bucket is 1/4 full (she keeps emptying it to make it look like no-one is giving, to get more). Meanwhile she's got a small tub of change in her car from emptying the pockets of every male that comes by. Her take 10 is 17 (10 + 5 + 2 (sexy clothes)) vs men, and probably 15 (10 + 5 + 1 (clothes) - 1 (flirtyness)) with women. Averaging out to 16. Or twice as good.
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*raises hand*Whoever gets her into thinking thst she is the one who NEEDS to be saved first, for whatever (possibly made-up) reason? (Bluff checks FTW)
*ducks for cover*
Anne tries to bluff, because she has a high bluff. The shopkeeper waves off her story about hungry kids, she doesn't have time to chitchat with three eager customers. "One second miss, I'll get you all taken care of." Turns to Cara. "How can I help you ma'am?"
Bluff requires time as well.
Well , if im playing a wizard with int 20 , i know i will be asking for rolls to outsmart people all the time , because i may not be a that inteligent , but if i was , im pretty sure i could.
Other than that , people forget the conditions for char change all the time.
You are in a barbarian village , i dont care if your bard got 100 char and your barb got char 6 , chances are the NPCs will come talk to the barb first. PS: If all the places are used to people dressed like the barb , maybe every single time they will prefer the barb to the bard
You guys just arrived at the town , the bard go walk around town , the barb go take a shower , chances are this already made them equal on your "char" counter.
Honestly , these things deppend on 1000 things , from each NPC point of view to if your char got a magic glamered armor so that he can always make it look cool and clean.
Reason i prefer to leave to the skill checks + situation than to tell my player he cant be cool to other people and need to have a disfunction since he got a 7.
Statistically shouldn't 2 6s or 7s be about just as rare as an 18 or 2 getting rolled naturally before racial hits?No, statistically two 6's or 7's are like 2 13's or 14's. They're both +/- 3 or 4 from average.
What if you're rolling 4d6 drop the lowest? That should skew it high.
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Well , if im playing a wizard with int 20 , i know i will be asking for rolls to outsmart people all the time , because i may not be a that inteligent , but if i was , im pretty sure i could.
Other than that , people forget the conditions for char change all the time.
You are in a barbarian village , i dont care if your bard got 100 char and your barb got char 6 , chances are the NPCs will come talk to the barb first. PS: If all the places are used to people dressed like the barb , maybe every single time they will prefer the barb to the bard
A) Yes, the character should not be penalized for the PLAYER's inability to think like a super genius (yes, I said Suuuupper Geeeenius Wyle!). The player should still attempt to think up something, and the GM should roll with it and assume the PC took a tiny bit of inspiration and found a good way to do it (assuming the Player makes the check with his die roll). Just as we don't penalize the player for not being as smart as his character, we should not in turn give him benefits for being smarter than his character, or more charismatic, or more wise.
B) Those would be circumstance bonuses you are looking for. The barbarian is in a barbarian village, he grew up in the culture, so he gives off all the right body language cues (+2 circumstance), he's dressed for the culture (+2 circumstance), and he's spending some coin in the tavern (+2 circumstance). His 'take 10' walking around is 10 - 3 (cha) + 6 (circumstance) = 13. The bard meanwhile is dressed in silken outfits (-2 circumstance for being a fop), talking in flowery speech (-2 for talking like a twit), and he's equipped with a tiny little pointy thing, not a real weapon (-2 circumstance for using a 'pansy' weapon rapier). His roll is 10 + 5 (cha) - 6 (circumstance) = 9. SO yeah, the barb is going to be better recieved than the bard. On the other hand, the 12 Cha ranger who grew up on the steppes and who has Knowledge (Local) and made his check about the barb tribe will be doing way better than both of them, since he'll get all the Barbarian's circumstance bonuses, and none of the bard's penalties (Take 10 check of 10 + 1 (Cha) + 6 Circumstance = 17).
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Well , if im playing a wizard with int 20 , i know i will be asking for rolls to outsmart people all the time , because i may not be a that inteligent , but if i was , im pretty sure i could.
Yes.
I had a player in both my game and other GM's games who would often played wizards and would say "My character is smarter than I am, can I roll a check?"
Quite often it was approved. Other times, when he was about to do something obviously dumb (he wasn't wrong...) we let him make an intelligence or wisdom check to not do the dumb thing.
But that is table variance :)