|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
*Warning* This might be a rant I don't know yet. Please, I BEG OF ANYONE READING THIS: DON'T TURN THIS THREAD INTO A BATTLEGROUND OF WORDS!!!*
-Thank you
So, I have survived and mostly enjoyed my first year in PFS. I've had good sessions/GMs/experiences and I've had some of these be so bad for me that I honestly questioned both my continued involvement in PFS and even my own self worth. Who hasn't(I guess)at some point experiences smilar to mine?
Anyway, I have a 6th level Witch fast approaching 7th level and my first character Zamiira is 7th level now; and looking back on how I got her there has lead my to reconsider taking a break from PFS for a little while. Maybe just to try and give myself a break from trying to figure out the survival capabilities of ALL my characters for PFS.
I'm not new to gaming per se, but I am new to playing characters at levels higher that 4 or 5. Before I started playing in PFS (Or the Pathfinder RPG for that matter) I played a bit of 3.0 and 3.5 D&D home-brews.And most of those games, I only every had to learn the bare minimum of the rules. Specifically: how to create a character, what that character's class abilities and restrictions were & a scant skill-use and combat rules (just enough the break-up the role playing aspects). But most of the time, the mechanical aspects go hand waved in favor of more cinematic descriptions of combat and skill checks for ease of play and time. Even in those, I never got a chance to play a character straight through to any level higher than 6th.
So naturally, I feel VERY uncomfortable/unsure of how to deal with and improve my game play to suit the expectations of regular PFS games.
I feel terrible for the times when find out the hard way that my character is woefully under-prepared for what is to come up in a new scenario. But, I also feel bullied by other players and GMs for not having/knowing things I apparently should for being at higher levels.
Even after a whole year of playing/GMing(again, only tier 1-2 games) in PFS,browsing the message boards, I still have trouble with learning/preparing everything as needed/ expected of me in higher level situations. This makes things really hard for me as a very community minded gamer. I want to have fun and "keep the ball rolling" when I come to play but essentially being bullied for not being used to something new to me hurts. It's doesn't make me very angry. It just hurts.
So, back to my first train of thought. Should I take a break for a while without PFS and the rigors of organized play or try to stick it out with what I have until every character I have either hits 11th level/dies first?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Stick it out, you're only going to learn by doing.
1) Post your build. You might be able to get up to snuff with a shopping trip, your character might only be missing one or two feats, or it could be completely fubar (in which case you're better off starting over than trying to ram a marshmallow through a brick wall)
2) Every time you can't do something that the table thinks you should be able to ask one of the grarging players "what does that? Whats the solution?" ie, if you can't hurt the demon get a cold iron weapon. If you have the will save of a caffinated lemming, get the clear spindle ioun stone slotted in a wayfinder. If they won't be helpful we will.
3) everyone, myself included, will have a different idea about what "baseline, good, overpowered, and waste of space" damage consists of. Wait for a few opinions.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Sorry you've felt bullied. :(
Can you be more specific on what kinds of problems you're having? That is, are you wishing you'd done your stats differently? Not knowing what sorts of spells to pick? Feat choices? What to spend your gold on? Tactical decisions in combat?
Basically, what burns you?
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you feel bullied by other players or GMs, then you need to find better people to play with because those people are jerks.
The difference with high-level play is that you can't just run up to stuff and kill it with a club.
All characters of about 5th level and higher need to be able to personally deal with three things: deeper darkness, invisible opponents, and flight. You either need to be able to get rid of these effects or help yourself or your party overcome them.
Beyond that, try to pay attention to the type of creature's your fighting and what their general weaknesses are. If it's a big brute, try to forcing it to make a will save, if it's a caster, perhaps ready an action that can disrupt their next spell. That kind of stuff.
Most importantly, take your time and enjoy it. Maybe even look at going slow track for a level with your first 7th level character so you can get the hang of the game a little more before going higher.
|
|
If someone, anyone makes you feel hurt. Then they do not belong there.
Honestly I disagree with kyle a little on saying you need to be prepared for X,Y, and Z. Because in truth there are countless things you need to be prepared for. And you character does not have to cover them all, someone in the party needs to be able to cover it. Not just you.
You should always have something to add to the party. You should find the points where you can prevent some of the following (but not necessarily all) flyign/invisible/darkness/incopreal/whatever special monsters from killing your team.
Keep in mind the game is for fun. I played sunday with my blaster wizard and did nto damage a single creature. My level 7 burning handed a door, thats all I did. Yet I had fun because of the people I was with. We roleplayed everycombat instead of just running up to and rolling dice.
I think you just need to find better people to play with.
|
My experience at higher levels is also limited and I have had a few wake up calls in the 8-9 and 10-11 Tiers.
What I did/still do is try to learn at least one thing from that scenario as to how I can improve my character (was I underequipped, bad spell choice, etc) or improve my play (check up on rules for combat maneuvers, learn about cover and concealment, etc).
|
|
Sorry you've felt bullied. :(
Can you be more specific on what kinds of problems you're having? That is, are you wishing you'd done your stats differently? Not knowing what sorts of spells to pick? Feat choices? What to spend your gold on? Tactical decisions in combat?
Basically, what burns you?
Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Also, I have 6 characters now, one I haven't played yet and one that is a GM baby starting at 3rd.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Also, I have 6 characters now, one I haven't played yet and one that is a GM baby starting at 3rd.Sorry you've felt bullied. :(
Can you be more specific on what kinds of problems you're having? That is, are you wishing you'd done your stats differently? Not knowing what sorts of spells to pick? Feat choices? What to spend your gold on? Tactical decisions in combat?
Basically, what burns you?
Well, part of it is just being new. You don't know what's out there that you need to overcome!
I remember the first time I encountered a swarm, and (apparently) the entire party learned for the first time that weapons won't hurt a spider swarm. We were able to outrun that one, but by golly, I looked up how swarms work and started having all my PCs buy alchemist's fire! :)
So, one method of upping your game is sheer experience: encounter an "oh crap" moment, then ask people (either in person or here) "How do I overcome X?" If possible, acquire a solution with that PC. If not, shrug and remember it for your next PC.
You should have seen my janky-ass halfling barbarian/sorc that I made for my first PC. Learned lots of things. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Help is available, free for the asking.
But if you want something better than generic advice: have a 14 con!, then we'll need to now more about your character.
Bullying's not okay. Call people out on it, or at least find how long they've been at it. Then tell them, well, I'll be as good as you are in 10 yrs.
We were all new once, and I for one want new PFS players. Welcome aboard, and feel free to PM me, I'm good with characters, and a professional educator.
And you're right to notice that the game changes around 7. Instead of bringing your A game to bear in every situation, there's a lot more move/countermove. Fights more closely resemble an Xmen comic than Agincourt.
Takes a bit to adapt.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Just putting it out there (I hope that this does not degenerate into another light/darkness debate), but a heightened continual flame will only increase the lighting level from "supernatural darkness" to "darkness", and will not "completely negate the darkness".
Actually, the final result is not defined. The final light level will depend on the order in which you apply the darkness effect's "reduce by X steps" and continual flame's "sheds normal light". If you do the former first, you end up with normal light within 20ft of CF. If you do the latter first, you end up with darkness (if it was DD) or dim light (if it was darkness). Unfortunately, the rules don't tell us which order to do it, so it's currently a GM call.
There's a FAQ request thread HERE if you're interested.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is something that we are dealing with in my local group at the moment, as we have a number of people starting to enter mid-level play. Our experienced players are well honed teams at this point and it's intimidating to try to hold your own beside them. They often just rise to the challenge of just beating the encounter without helping explain what to do, or how they did. Everyone learns differently, and not everyone can make a couple forum searches and buy things from a list. Bullying is never acceptable. The process of encountering challenges, and overcoming them is one of the big parts of the game. Those bullies are wrong. How can you be used to something that you have never encountered?
Something that my group of friends came up with as we were playing through 3.0 was the 'never again list'. Periodically you run into things that just make things hard and you have to completely change your tactics to deal with them. The first time you deal with incorporeal creatures, the first time an invisible opponent comes your way, etc. When these situations happened, our characters promised each other that never again would we be surprised by them. Learning by explerience caused us to have a number of interesting tricks, and we remembered them because every one had a story behind it.
The first time we fought shadows our group was in a world of hurt. We had no magic weapons, our spells were mostly used up and we were taking a beating. The only means we had of doing much at all was my ranger's wand of cure light wounds. We used it and eventually prevailed but it was very close. We said, "never again." When we ran into a ghost in the next adventure, it didn't last long.
You don't have to be prepared for everything, but prepare for what you or your character knows about. Encountering and overcoming new challenges is a big part of the game, and it is what makes your character's story. Listen to other players, look at the advice you find here on the forum. Browse through the books and look for neat things in the equipment and magic chapter and think of how they might be used. If you come up with your own tricks, you can remember to use them better.
I noticed that at least one of your characters is a spellcaster. Spellcasters have it a lot easier than most in dealing with unusual situations. You can learn new spells that can help deal with these situations. You can get a lot of mileage out of asking the group advice on which spells to prepare, and there will be times where you can seek out new spells to teach to your familiar once you know where you are going.
Higher level play is the reward for making it past level 6. At this point your characters start feeling realy strong. They are like superheroes compared to the average NPC, but even Superman gets beaten up pretty bad before he figures out how to overcome the villain. Improvise, Adapt, Overcome. If it doesn't kill you, (or cause you to run out of prestige) you can learn from it and your character has another "You want to know how I got this scar" story to tell as it shows off its new cold iron sword. Don't get discouraged, just try to learn a new trick every time and you will be awesome.
|
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's the job of the GM (and the sign of a good one) to take the time to explain things to newer players. To identify when to hit the pause button and discuss what's happening. As a GM it's a constant struggle to divide my attention evenly, but it's worth it. In situations like these, some of that time will be spent A) explaining some of the higher-level mechanics and B) engaging those same characters so they feel like part of the team (even if they aren't the ones ending the encounters).
|
|
As a game organizer, I don't GM because I'm doing the administrative thing of juggling 10 other GMs and who will run which scenario.
But our group is coming up in levels and quite a few players have lvl. 9-12 PCs. And only some will go beyond lvl. 12. The table can only seat 7 and 1 GM. That means there is competition for 7 spots by about 10-12 people.
Its rough but this is the reality of the game we play. So, I've been doing audits and asking questions of people. I ask, what does your PC do? What will he do in the next three levels? And what will he do at lvl. 12? I offer to help, if anyone wants it. And some people go with, "I don't want your opinion, I want to role-play my PC even if he sucks." I get that but at lvl. 12, those PCs will probably not go beyond in levels.
So let me ask a few questions:
Do you know what your PC does? What is your PC good at? How will your PC get better next level? What will that PC do at lvl. 12?
Now most of us, including me, have a screw around PC and one or more serious PCs. A serious PC is built at lvl. 1 and mapped out at least to 3 levels ahead, some of mine are mapped out to lvl. 18.
Have you ever mapped out a PC? And would you be willing to try it? I'm sure the gamers that you play with would be more than willing to help.
But past lvl. 6-7, most gamers are not interested in carrying a PC, who doesn't carry his own weight. If you only wish to create role-playing PCs then you are ultimately putting a burden on the other players at the table, to carry your PC and that's only going to be tolerated for so long before they let you know that its not, ok.
At least this has been my experience. Obviously experiences vary by table and gaming group.
|
I know it isn't much consolation, but ultimately you gotta fail a few times to learn in this game. I've GMd for nearly 29 years now. But I wasn't always skilled, even 25 years into it, at high-level play or gming. I learned by trial and error. I lucked out that I got to be regular GM and player for a group of 10 with 3 campaigns that all went to 16th+ level.
So I got practical experience to see what works and doesn't. There are GMs with just ad much or more time behind the screen who self-admittedly aren't good at high level play or gming. Mainly its because their experience is not at high level.
So tell those giving you a hard time that you literally have 7 levels of experience gaming, not just in PFS. Tell them where they can stuff their condescension.
|
|
But our group is coming up in levels and quite a few players have lvl. 9-12 PCs. And only some will go beyond lvl. 12. The table can only seat 7 and 1 GM. That means there is competition for 7 spots by about 10-12 people.
So...just curious and off topic, but if you have 10-12 people, why not split the table and have EVERYONE play? I realize that getting GM can be hard in some areas, but it maybe worthwhile for your area if you spent some effort into getting a backup GM.
|
|
I know it isn't much consolation, but ultimately you gotta fail a few times to learn in this game. I've GMd for nearly 29 years now. But I wasn't always skilled, even 25 years into it, at high-level play or gming. I learned by trial and error. I lucked out that I got to be regular GM and player for a group of 10 with 3 campaigns that all went to 16th+ level.
So I got practical experience to see what works and doesn't. There are GMs with just ad much or more time behind the screen who self-admittedly aren't good at high level play or gming. Mainly its because their experience is not at high level.
So tell those giving you a hard time that you literally have 7 levels of experience gaming, not just in PFS. Tell them where they can stuff their condescension.
You do realize your doing the EXACT same thing right? Just at a different scale? How much or how little experience they have is irrelevant. They should stuff their condescension PERIOD.
|
|
As for the OP...well...yes, the game changes. I have been saying that we need a module or scenarios to help newer players with this. Set around 5-7. It's not just you. I am seeing some of the newer PFS players at one of my locals reaching 5+ and they are struggling with how the game changes. I suspect many of them will have a character death by 9. I try to help as best as I can. When I run games, I give advice to the newer players along with being a bit more lax with the oh crap I should have done X moments they have. There isn't much for getting better at this then to just DO it. The problem is, it sounds like your don't have a GM/players who are willing to be nice and civil towards you as you learn...much less actually HELP you. So what does the PFS community look like where you live? If there are other venues you can hit, you may wanna try them? Also you may wish to contact your local VO and see they can do something about the toxic gaming atmosphere you have endured. It's not just for your sake, it's best for ALL of us to take care of these situations.
There are a few things in the game that require advance planning. I learned about most of these the hard way, by realizing my characters didn't have these things...
Use Magic Device: worthless at first level, this becomes quasi-reliable at 5th level, and dependable by 8th. At that point, it's the greatest skill in the game, and yes, I'm including perception.
Spell penetration: You don't need spell penetration at first level, and can't see why you would. By the time you need it, it's the feat you should have taken last level, which can be painful. Spell focus is similar.
Combat feats: it's possible to take the entry level feats in every category, including dodge and diehard and mounted combat, and power attack, but that gives you a lot of low-level abilities. Versatile, but not always powerful.
Sometimes, you need brute force, and that requires several feats all working together, like dodge mobility, and spring attack, or point blank, precise, and rapid shot.
Skills: many skills have a set DC. Once you can hit the DC 10 to climb a rope, you're set until you run out of rope. But Stealth is different, it's opposed by the Perception of your enemies, and that continues to increase. So, to be good, it's an ongoing investment, every level. If you fall behind, it's very difficult to catch up.
Hopefully, you can learn from my mistakes, and feel free to PM me with specific questions.
|
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
As a game organizer, I don't GM because I'm doing the administrative thing of juggling 10 other GMs and who will run which scenario.
But our group is coming up in levels and quite a few players have lvl. 9-12 PCs. And only some will go beyond lvl. 12. The table can only seat 7 and 1 GM. That means there is competition for 7 spots by about 10-12 people.
Its rough but this is the reality of the game we play. So, I've been doing audits and asking questions of people. I ask, what does your PC do? What will he do in the next three levels? And what will he do at lvl. 12? I offer to help, if anyone wants it. And some people go with, "I don't want your opinion, I want to role-play my PC even if he sucks." I get that but at lvl. 12, those PCs will probably not go beyond in levels.
So let me ask a few questions:
Do you know what your PC does? What is your PC good at? How will your PC get better next level? What will that PC do at lvl. 12?
Now most of us, including me, have a screw around PC and one or more serious PCs. A serious PC is built at lvl. 1 and mapped out at least to 3 levels ahead, some of mine are mapped out to lvl. 18.
Have you ever mapped out a PC? And would you be willing to try it? I'm sure the gamers that you play with would be more than willing to help.
But past lvl. 6-7, most gamers are not interested in carrying a PC, who doesn't carry his own weight. If you only wish to create role-playing PCs then you are ultimately putting a burden on the other players at the table, to carry your PC and that's only going to be tolerated for so long before they let you know that its not, ok.
At least this has been my experience. Obviously experiences vary by table and gaming group.
...
I'm dumb founded by this post. But before I let that traverse into other stages of human emotion, let me ask some clarifying questions.
If you are coordinator for 10 GM's, and there is competition for 7 spots at a table...from 12 people...
The math just doesn't add up.
More importantly, if you are coordinating anything...and you have 10-12 players trying to play at one table...the math is EXTREMELY simple to figure out that it is time to step up and GM a table to make it so each table has 5 to 6 players.
Now Eric, I know you love pathfinder, but that isn't enough to build a community on. There is hard work, honesty, and most of all the willingness to accept anyone's play style as they see fit.
There is no burden on players to succeed at every mission. Failure, be it in a mission or life, is part of the story. It creates an opportunity to tell story and growth. On top of that...there is no such thing as bad/wrong/fun.
Let me explain bad/wrong/fun. That is the concept that someone else is doing it wrong...in a game, about creating a character and story. Pathfinder Society is closer to a collaborative storytelling process then a board game. Why do I say that? Because the goal is to have fun, however it is decided that you have fun.
If you have chosen for your version of fun to require the complete cooperation of everyone else at the table to follow a very strict guideline for character progression...then I think that's an expectation you should announce to everyone before you sit down at the table with them. More so, I think that expectation is unbecoming of someone who is a coordinator.
Eric...the reason I'm even commenting on this post is because I believe you are representing your opinion as the only one that applies to your area. Saying things such as "...I don't want your opinion, I want to role-play my PC even if he sucks..." is truly worrisome to those of us who actually coordinate large amounts of stores.
And just to be clear on the "I don't GM because I co-ordinate so many people".
I'm the VC of Seattle, we oversee 25 stores with 27 gamedays schedule per week. We now have 15 conventions we support, including PaizoCon and PAX Prime. We have a GM list that is 2 to 3 deep at each store, with some stores having a wait list to sign up to GM. We have other stores where I beg folks to travel to, to keep the GMimg going at so those few GM's in that area don't burn out.
My region geographically stretches 7 hours north to south, and 6 hours east to west. That's not counting Traffic. I've driven to EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY STORES, and find the time to visit them each at least once every 6 months.
I've GM'ed once in the last month, because I feel if I don't do at least that I am failing my team. I shut off my phone at the table and only responded to questions in email or text when the table was over...for PFS questions, of which there were 7 texts and 12 emails in that 5 hour period (it was a Saturday).
Coordinating 10 GM's in one day is a great undertaking, but it is never the reason to say you don't have time to GM.
If you have time to play, you have time to GM.
More then this, if you have time to come on here and post about your problems, you have time to sit down and prepare a scenario.
And on a final note...
Please consider GMing a table. It does wonders to leading a community, and being a coordinator.
|
As a game organizer, I don't GM because I'm doing the administrative thing of juggling 10 other GMs and who will run which scenario.
But our group is coming up in levels and quite a few players have lvl. 9-12 PCs. And only some will go beyond lvl. 12. The table can only seat 7 and 1 GM. That means there is competition for 7 spots by about 10-12 people.
Its rough but this is the reality of the game we play. So, I've been doing audits and asking questions of people. I ask, what does your PC do? What will he do in the next three levels? And what will he do at lvl. 12? I offer to help, if anyone wants it. And some people go with, "I don't want your opinion, I want to role-play my PC even if he sucks." I get that but at lvl. 12, those PCs will probably not go beyond in levels.
So let me ask a few questions:
Do you know what your PC does? What is your PC good at? How will your PC get better next level? What will that PC do at lvl. 12?
Now most of us, including me, have a screw around PC and one or more serious PCs. A serious PC is built at lvl. 1 and mapped out at least to 3 levels ahead, some of mine are mapped out to lvl. 18.
Have you ever mapped out a PC? And would you be willing to try it? I'm sure the gamers that you play with would be more than willing to help.
But past lvl. 6-7, most gamers are not interested in carrying a PC, who doesn't carry his own weight. If you only wish to create role-playing PCs then you are ultimately putting a burden on the other players at the table, to carry your PC and that's only going to be tolerated for so long before they let you know that its not, ok.
At least this has been my experience. Obviously experiences vary by table and gaming group.
I have some issues here. In the past you said your group was 20+ players. As Kyle pointed out that you have 10 gm's and full tables why are you not splitting into 2 tables each week? The math really doesn't add up.
I am an organizer that runs a weekly event, with 2 tables each week in my local area that is also helping another local area expand and grow by organizing 2 events a month with 2-3 tables 2 slots, so I organize 16 tables a month and I find time to run. I don't understand what admin things you have to do during a gameday that is letting you play that is also preventing you from running either?
You also happen to organize in the LA area, do you know how many Venture Officers are there? I am sure you could reach out to them and ask for assistance since PFS is "just a hobby for you" and I am sure they will try to help you, after all that is why Venture Officers exist, to help.
You say past level 6-7 players won't want to "carry" another character. I have 7 characters almost all of them are great at RP and yet none of them have ever had to be "carried" by the party. In fact my level 6 maneuver master underfoot adept halfling monk who despises anyone who is taller than him has never had to be "carried" despite the fact that he does almost no damage. Is the goal of all your characters and the people you play with to win pathfinder by, in the words of John Compton, be a murder hobo that smashes his way through everything?
Sorry you've felt bullied. :(
Can you be more specific on what kinds of problems you're having? That is, are you wishing you'd done your stats differently? Not knowing what sorts of spells to pick? Feat choices? What to spend your gold on? Tactical decisions in combat?
Basically, what burns you?
Tell us about... your mother...
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A serious PC is built at lvl. 1 and mapped out at least to 3 levels ahead, some of mine are mapped out to lvl. 18.
None of my serious PCs have ever been mapped out that far in advance, and are doing great. Level mapping is not a prerequisite to being "serious". On the other hand, I guess I could see it as a useful tool to a newer player like the OP who might be overwhelmed with unfamiliar options and not be able to see how it all fits together without having it all laid out in front of them. So yeah, maybe that would be a good tool until they gain sufficient system mastery to make solid characters level by level.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Eric, I am sure you know, there are lots of ways to play Pathfinder, (and Pathfinder Society Organized Play) and there are lots of ways to make a myriad of characters.
I have a 14 level Mystic Theurge in PFS. This character has now been kicking around for 4 years .
Being one of my first PFS characters I made some mistakes making the character. He has the extra channel and selective channel feats, excellent for a first level cleric, but perhaps not so useful for a mystic theurge. My character's wizard levels are in necromancy, and I mistakenly chose conjuration and transmutation as opposition schools....another mistake. At the time I was tickled that I had a character (3rd level cleric/ 1st level Necromancer) whom, with the Turn Undead feat, and the Necromancer Command Undead ability, could both turn and command the undead. After a while I realized that this wasn't going to work in the long run, so I then went into the Mystic Theurge class. So as you can see I didn't map this character out 3 levels ahead.
I just played him a couple of weekends ago at a convention called Council of Five Nations (in Schectady NY, Near Albany) at the "seeker" table. He wasn't the big damage dealer, that job fell to the paladin and monks and evoker at the table, but I think my character did his job in supporting the other characters with buff spells, and some evocation spells, and lots of utility spells.
I guess Eric, all I am saying is that there is plenty of room in PFS for a character who has been mapped out for 18 levels, and one who has been more "organically" grown without allot of planning.
|
|
You do realize your doing the EXACT same thing right? Just at a different scale? How much or how little experience they have is irrelevant. They should stuff their condescension PERIOD.I know it isn't much consolation, but ultimately you gotta fail a few times to learn in this game. I've GMd for nearly 29 years now. But I wasn't always skilled, even 25 years into it, at high-level play or gming. I learned by trial and error. I lucked out that I got to be regular GM and player for a group of 10 with 3 campaigns that all went to 16th+ level.
So I got practical experience to see what works and doesn't. There are GMs with just ad much or more time behind the screen who self-admittedly aren't good at high level play or gming. Mainly its because their experience is not at high level.
So tell those giving you a hard time that you literally have 7 levels of experience gaming, not just in PFS. Tell them where they can stuff their condescension.
Huh? You just tried to slam me here and I reread what I wrote and gave no idea why.
|
|
Huh? You just tried to slam me here and I reread what I wrote and gave no idea why.You do realize your doing the EXACT same thing right? Just at a different scale? How much or how little experience they have is irrelevant. They should stuff their condescension PERIOD.I know it isn't much consolation, but ultimately you gotta fail a few times to learn in this game. I've GMd for nearly 29 years now. But I wasn't always skilled, even 25 years into it, at high-level play or gming. I learned by trial and error. I lucked out that I got to be regular GM and player for a group of 10 with 3 campaigns that all went to 16th+ level.
So I got practical experience to see what works and doesn't. There are GMs with just ad much or more time behind the screen who self-admittedly aren't good at high level play or gming. Mainly its because their experience is not at high level.
So tell those giving you a hard time that you literally have 7 levels of experience gaming, not just in PFS. Tell them where they can stuff their condescension.
You were condescending to the other players in the OP and used your years of gaming experience to do so. You pulled the my opinion is better then theirs because I have a position of power routine (again) with the 29 years of gaming and 3 16+ campaigns. Then you belittled theirs position with your 7 levels of gaming experience comment (which you don't even know if that is true since you have no idea what their gaming background is...I started PFS less then a year ago, I have run and played in WAY more then 3 16+ PFS campaigns before then). Basically what you said is don't be condescending unless you have years of experience like me...then feel free to talk down to people you feel has less experience.
|
|
Ah, I should explain since some of my comments are hard to understand. Most people in my gaming store don't want to GM. So we were essentially not going to run any scenarios because of a lack of GMs.
My solution was simple. If you've played up to lvl. 5, you get to GM for every 3 games you play. This way no GM is ever burned out and everyone does his share. So, with 20+ people, we've got 10 GMs to run scenarios.
Now why is it only 10-12 people are going for the lvl. 12 PCs when we have 20+ people. The short and simple answer is, some people play every time slot they have a chance to and some only show up to our bi-weekly weekend slots. So, of the 20+ players only 10-12 want the ubber achievement of a lvl. 12 at all costs.
Now, as to why I don't organize two tables for lvl. 12+ gaming. The stone cold killers and hard core Pathfinders will group up in one group, I'm not worried about their chances. They'll succeed and keep going past lvl. 13 2/3 and never look back.
The ones that role-play and create 'cool concept' PCs that have no umph, on the other hand, will be stuck playing together and will probably get TPKed in the first Eyes of the Ten Scenario. And when a GM does it to them, there will be blame as to who screwed up, where and how and there will be bad blood. Poor builds get parties killed, 6 poor builds at the same table, spells disaster for the PCs and anger and hurt feelings among the players. Why would I do this to them?
And the first group will not want to carry any players from the second group, so they are not up for splitting up. They just won't have it. Most of them carried the concept PCs up to lvl. 12, they want the 12-19 to be a breeze where they can focus on the story and not on keeping the party alive due to dead weight dragging them down.
And I know some of you are going to berate me about how they should include everyone. And all I'll say is this "Pathfinder Society is a competitive sport." The Denver Broncos and the Seattle Seahawks aren't putting third string and amateur players into their starting lines. And neither will the strong players. And besides, if 6 people show up and ask to play a game together, who am I to tell them they can't play together? I don't have the authority to tell people who they can and can't group up with and neither do any VLs or VCs.
|
|
You are the coordinator. You can tell folks you will try to seat them together but that you can't guarantee it.
And you have the right to disinvite folks who refuse to be inclusive in your public game days.
Thanks to our first VC Ryan Bolduan, he helped create an air of inclusivity. He determined who sat where. This precedent has largely played out in our region even over a year since he retired.
And before you say it, I know the above sounds authoritarian and what not, but it isn't. Players know that they can request a scenario and tier and even table mates, but that ultimately whatever makes the most sense for everyone to play at as balanced atable as possible is the primary concern.
You don't have to put up with or accept cliquishness.
|
|
Like seeks like, Andrew. And I'm not the one to try to mix water and oil. These folks don’t have an issue playing with everyone at low levels at low tier scenarios. But some PCs become favorites and others don’t make the grade. Every PC, (not player) is weighed, measured and either found lacking or 'up to snuff.'
It’s all fine and dandy to run a scenario but when 6 PCs ask to play together for a set of scenarios and modules, I’m not going to say, “Ok, but you have to take the kid who can’t throw a ball on your softball team, or you can’t play on my field.”
This team wants to play together at lvl. 12+ and I’m not going to tell them they can’t play together and that they have to take along a weak PC who’s going to have to be babysat for the next 6 levels. That would be uncool in my mind.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's really unfortunate to hear that these mighty PCs seek to breeze through the higher levels of play. They build powerful PCs, and sit with other powerful PCs, in order to make the experience as easy as possible?
*scratches head* Do they not want a challenge or something? Are they the types of gamers who'd play on God Mode if they could?
If that's the case, perhaps your area would be better served if you focused your efforts on the players who don't want to play on Easy Mode with cheat codes. Then, perhaps the others will jockey to be included in the table with Not-Easy-Mode PCs. And the people who are most willing to take on the challenge of not playing on Easy, perhaps they're the ones you really want at your high-level tables.
In other words, encourage positive, inclusive behaviors, and your area might be better-off.
-Matt
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now, as to why I don't organize two tables for lvl. 12+ gaming. The stone cold killers and hard core Pathfinders will group up in one group, I'm not worried about their chances. They'll succeed and keep going past lvl. 13 2/3 and never look back.
The ones that role-play and create 'cool concept' PCs that have no umph, on the other hand, will be stuck playing together and will probably get TPKed in the first Eyes of the Ten Scenario.
Am I understanding you correctly that you don't have a single person from the "hard core" group willing to party with the "concept" players? If my understanding is correct, that amazes me in a negative fashion. I min-max most of my characters to hell and back, and I would happily sit at a table full of "concept" players without blinking an eyelash.
Sounds to me like the "stone cold killers" could stand to show some heart (and some balls for that matter) and group with everyone.
|
|
I love the fact that some of you believe I have to defend one group's style, over your perceived "RIGHT WAY TO PLAY" style.
There are killer cultures and there are soft and cuddly bunnies cultures in PFS. Not every one of the gaming cultures will mix.
And I'm not looking to be the guy who forces your personal social preferences on a different social setting.