RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So, I'm trying to get my head around "how to run demon opponents". I suspect I'm going to have a lot of practice with this skill this year.
My understanding is that demons aren't nice, don't cut PCs slack, and are all about causing their opponents pain, misery and suffering, to the extent that their powers and Intelligence allow. That's the distinction between demonic outsiders and just nasty humans: humans have goals you can negotiate with.
If a PC drops one weapon to use another, or loses a firearm in a Disarm, it's not above a babau's tactics to pick it up, teleport to the center of the Worldwound, drop it, and teleport back.
If a PC is dropped unconscious or helpless, it's not above a schir's tactics to demand that her allies surrender or else it'll kill her, and then, after they drop their weapons and spell component pouches, kill her anyways.
All of the "don't be a jerk" advice gets a little caveat: "...unless it's in character for the demonic NPC." All the rules about "Don't set out to kill PCs" get the footnote: "... unless they're fighting an intelligent demon. At that point, do everything you can to cause the characters woe."
Which makes fighting demons distinctive and thrilling, but not much fun for a weak or inexpert party.
Your take?
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So, I'm trying to get my head around "how to run demon opponents". I suspect I'm going to have a lot of practice with this skill this year.
My understanding is that demons aren't nice, don't cut PCs slack, and are all about causing their opponents pain, misery and suffering, to the extent that their powers and Intelligence allow. That's the distinction between demonic outsiders and just nasty humans: humans have goals you can negotiate with.
If a PC drops one weapon to use another, or loses a firearm in a Disarm, it's not above a babau's tactics to pick it up, teleport to the center of the Worldwound, drop it, and teleport back.
If a PC is dropped unconscious or helpless, it's not above a schir's tactics to demand that her allies surrender or else it'll kill her, and then, after they drop their weapons and spell component pouches, kill her anyways.
All of the "don't be a jerk" advice gets a little caveat: "...unless it's in character for the demonic NPC." All the rules about "Don't set out to kill PCs" get the footnote: "... unless they're fighting an intelligent demon. At that point, do everything you can to cause the characters woe."
Which makes fighting demons distinctive and thrilling, but not much fun for a weak or inexpert party.
Your take?
Oh, I totally agree with your take on this, Chris, with one exception. You forgot something - an intelligent demon who speaks common should be mocking the party as she/he/it does these horrible things. >:-)
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I think a lot of dm's either forget or for some reason ignore a demon's at will powers. I often have the demons mouth obscenities at the characters (obviously implied not me speaking them out), or tells them about the pleasures of the abyss on mortal flesh.
We are also somewhat constrained by the during combat tactics, but apart from that (and esp where we arnt given any) anything is fair game.
and I have to say one thing. You CAN negotiate with a Demon. In fact people do it for access to the Wish spell. It just never ends well.
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Well these games are an illusion. You are providing a fantasy of people bieng warriors, elves, and wizards. Whate tactics can you use to get them deeper in that role?
Honestly doing things like taking their sword and teleporting it into a volcano is an awesome strategy, but at that point the rules come to the players and they lose their fantasy. As they become more concerned about their character losing 18k of wealth at their +3 weapon is forever gone. Although their spell pouches and smaller items. Yeah sure.
I would have demons offer deals and break them the second they can. Just to spite players. Drop your weapons or I kill them. Great you dropped your weapons now I kill. But at the same time that character that may be dying might be taken form his fantasy. Any valuable NPC I would target like mad.
I think how you played that hag with my gnome would be another great example. Ohh yes I will be your friend and then eat you the second I get the chance. I also liked how brian ran the herzog cursing us before he died.
Get the players to hate these things without breaking their character. I am planning on having PCs make friends with some fluff character, and at the start of the battle the demon teleports in with that fluff npc brutally torn apart in their arms.
I would say you CAN NOT negoiate with a demon they are the embodiment of choas and evil. Devils you neogiate with.
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I think wrecking 18K of permanent wealth is a too dirty of a move in PFS. In homebrew sure, because I can give the wealth back later. But not in PFS. Mostly because the things I would do to some of the NPCs in PFS can't be done by the rules of PFS. The players are literally fighting with one hand behind their back. There would be quite the body count for me if PFS-world were translated to homebrew.
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If a PC is foolish enough to drop a weapon worth 18,000 on the ground in the middle of a fight, then they deserve everything that happens next. Locked gauntlet is only 8 gold pieces.
Teleportation is your friend. Full attacks from Smiting Paladins is not. Stay away from the Paladins!
Often you may teleport to a distance where summoning a demonic ally isn't going to get you ganked immediately, especially if you are off the battle mat or behind difficult terrain/environmental factors.
Every Nabasu must use Enervation as much as possible before getting into melee. When escaping to the air and provokin AoO, Deeper Darkness is great.
Babau know that their Darkness isn't so hot versus native outsiders, dwarves and half-orcs. So they go for races without darkvision instead. They also know that they can Teleport away and remove visible buff spells with Dispel Magic.
Many of the statistic blocks DO NOT have power attack factored in, so do the maths before the session starts.
Telepathy + great bluff ranks is awesome.
Remember the poison and electricity immunities!
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Kill my character, but don't take my stuff!
I think the majority of PFS players aren't ready to deal with demons acting like demons. They are the servants of chaos and wholly evil. Unfortunately, I also think that many of these unprepared players are going to see a GM who is acting these fiends out as being a 'jerk' and out to get the PCs.
While I agree with the premise of "run them as pure chaos and evil," we should all do our best to look for motives beyond chaos and evil. Each demon should have its own personality, even Generic Glabrezu #14 must have some small personal motives that can come through while roleplaying.
As an aside, there was a huge discussion before about gear retrieval for Prestige, was anything officially decided in that thread? Seems like a demon dropping your sword in the middle of the Worldwound would be a perfect example for such a situation. I, of course (go figure), don't agree with it, why would the Society bother with risking the lives of agents for your sword? Of course they'll go after your body, they've spent 3 years training your sorry butt and time > money for the Decemvirate.
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As an aside, there was a huge discussion before about gear retrieval for Prestige, was anything officially decided in that thread?
Eyup
Does the generic prestige award to recover a dead character's body include recovery of the character's equipment?
Yes. The 5 PP cost includes recovery of the character's body, as well as all personal equipment the character possessed at the time of death. The same applies to the Shadow Lodge prestige award, No One Left Behind.
Apparently your stuff is the secondary success condition and these pathfinders don't like missing prestige.
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The discussion was around if the player DIDN'T die. Let's say a demon takes my +4 longsword and tosses it in a volcano. We then kill said demon when he comes back to try and do it again.
Can I pay 5 PP for the PF Society to "recover" my sword? (currently, no)
Can I then go toss myself in said volcano, get the society to recover my body, and get it back with all my gear? Raise dead is cheaper than replacing that sword. (currently, yes)
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As an aside, there was a huge discussion before about gear retrieval for Prestige, was anything officially decided in that thread?Eyup
Apparently your stuff is the secondary success condition and these pathfinders don't like missing prestige.Does the generic prestige award to recover a dead character's body include recovery of the character's equipment?
Yes. The 5 PP cost includes recovery of the character's body, as well as all personal equipment the character possessed at the time of death. The same applies to the Shadow Lodge prestige award, No One Left Behind.
One of the arguments in that thread is that the FAQ specifically calls out "equipment possessed at the time of death." If the demon takes your stuff to the middle of the Worldwound, but you survive the encounter/scenario, was it ever officially decided by John that we could spend 5 PP to get our stuff back? I know he was considering some options.
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The discussion was around if the player DIDN'T die. Let's say a demon takes my +4 longsword and tosses it in a volcano. We then kill said demon when he comes back to try and do it again.
Can I pay 5 PP for the PF Society to "recover" my sword? (currently, no)
Can I then go toss myself in said volcano, get the society to recover my body, and get it back with all my gear? Raise dead is cheaper than replacing that sword. (currently, yes)
Not true on the second one, as the item wasn't in your possession when you died.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'm having trouble understanding why an intelligent enemy, who has already disarmed his opponent, would spend two rounds (teleport out, teleport back) to destroy the weapon, thereby also giving said opponent two rounds to come up with a "Plan B". Even if the weapon was of emotional significance to the character, the demon just went out of its way to destroy it someplace where the character could NOT watch it fall into said volcano, thereby depriving them of the agony of watching it get destroyed.
Against most PCs, I could see a demon maybe spending a standard action to disarm, a move action to move over to a nearby cliff/pit/whatever, and a free action to drop said weapon where it can't be retrieved easily. That helps the demon win the fight so he can kill/capture/torture the PCs.
If the demon finds out that a particular PC has a particular emotional attachment to a weapon (such as an Heirloom Weapon), I could see them taking the extra standard action to smash the swiped weapon against the rocks while the PC watches in agony.
But a demon deciding to take time out to permanently destroy a weapon (rather than spending less time simply making it unavailable so that the PC is more likely to die during that fight) tells me that the demon is apparently intending to lose the fight. If he intended to win, then "disarmed for the fight" and "disarmed permanently" would be the same thing, so he'd accomplish that end in as few actions as possible. It also tells me that he expects the PCs (in-character, presumably) to fear expenses more than they fear pain and death. If he believed they feared pain and death more, then his actions would be focused on causing pain and death rather than being expensive.
Removing a weapon from the campaign rather than from the fight seems extremely metagamey to me.
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One of the arguments in that thread is that the FAQ specifically calls out "equipment possessed at the time of death." If the demon takes your stuff to the middle of the Worldwound, but you survive the encounter/scenario, was it ever officially decided by John that we could spend 5 PP to get our stuff back? I know he was considering some options.
It seems pretty metagamey for the demon to loot you and THEN kill you rather than killing you and then looting you because he knows how the (mostly oocly justified) society wealth and treasure rules work.
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If players can't make equipment with item creation, then they shouldn't be losing it in this manner, either. I already feel practically naked in PFS as it is.
We come on here and talk about "having fun" but some of the GMs on here seem very determined to make it anything but. The NPCs are supposed to lose, and I've already seen more PC deaths and TPKs associated with devils/demons than anything else in PFS. Not good enough for you? I don't know what to say.
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One of the arguments in that thread is that the FAQ specifically calls out "equipment possessed at the time of death." If the demon takes your stuff to the middle of the Worldwound, but you survive the encounter/scenario, was it ever officially decided by John that we could spend 5 PP to get our stuff back? I know he was considering some options.It seems pretty metagamey for the demon to loot you and THEN kill you rather than killing you and then looting you because he knows how the (mostly oocly justified) society wealth and treasure rules work.
This. Mostly because the PFS wealth rules are competently abstracted from any in-game logic and so far away from the RAW wealth rules. This changes so many assumptions that underpin the game that we get all these problems with doing in-world justified things that contradict the ooc-logic derived house rules.
In a real campaign, great, deamons can do that kind of thing. It is a great way to give the players a visceral hatred of a BBEG. PFS does not have that kind of depth though, and it is more important to no say things that help bad, adversarial DMs rationalize screwing with players. We esecially don't need the big names of the campaign encouraging that kind of adversarial crap. The social contrast
Also consider what Jiggy says about tactics and remember that stupid stuff like teleporting player's stuff into lava is highly, highly unlikely to be a written tactic and thus since it is not included in the tactics to follow it is higly unlikely to be intended to happen in PFS.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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On the "don't be a jerk" thing, there's an important distinction between being a jerk to a player and being a jerk to a character.
When a demon disarms a PC, the PC's thoughts and the player's thoughts are about the same:
"Crap, that's my main weapon! Gotta use my backup! This is gonna be a rough fight!"
But when he teleports to a volcano, drops the weapon in, and then teleports back, suddenly the PC's thoughts and the player's thoughts diverge:
PC: "Sweet! I thought he was going to attack me, but he left! Not only did I not lose ground from casting greater magic weapon on my backup, but I also had time to quaff a healing potion and my allies were able to put up some buffs without being seen! That demon made a mistake, and put victory within reach for us!"
Player: "Noooooooooo!!!"
That divergence should be a red flag.
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One of the arguments in that thread is that the FAQ specifically calls out "equipment possessed at the time of death." If the demon takes your stuff to the middle of the Worldwound, but you survive the encounter/scenario, was it ever officially decided by John that we could spend 5 PP to get our stuff back? I know he was considering some options.It seems pretty metagamey for the demon to loot you and THEN kill you rather than killing you and then looting you because he knows how the (mostly oocly justified) society wealth and treasure rules work.
Really depends on the situation. Please note, no where here did I say that it was a good tactic.
It could, however, be reasonable depending on the object. An example might be if there's a certain item that's clearly the only way the demon might lose.
If you want really mean tactics, have the demons teleport away before being slain and show up at a later encounter. Rinse and repeat until the BBEG. Fun for most tables? Probably not. :-)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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"Crap, that's my main weapon! Gotta use my backup! This is gonna be a rough fight!"TBH, my experience with this is drastically different. Most players think something along the lines of, "Crap, I lost my main weapon. I'm screwed and completely nerfed. This blows. What a stupid encounter!"
That's why you should always say to the Fighter you've never met, "Hey, that's a cool +1 Flaming Greatsword you have. What's your backup weapon? Oh, you don't have one? Let's swing buy the Blades 'R' Us on the way out of Absalom and pick up a cold iron morningstar for the low, low price of 16 gp."
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On the "don't be a jerk" thing, there's an important distinction between being a jerk to a player and being a jerk to a character.
When a demon disarms a PC, the PC's thoughts and the player's thoughts are about the same:
"Crap, that's my main weapon! Gotta use my backup! This is gonna be a rough fight!"But when he teleports to a volcano, drops the weapon in, and then teleports back, suddenly the PC's thoughts and the player's thoughts diverge:
PC: "Sweet! I thought he was going to attack me, but he left! Not only did I not lose ground from casting greater magic weapon on my backup, but I also had time to quaff a healing potion and my allies were able to put up some buffs without being seen! That demon made a mistake, and put victory within reach for us!"
Player: "Noooooooooo!!!"That divergence should be a red flag.
This was kinda my orginal point. When you damage the player instead of the PC you might be crossing the line.
When the Player and the characters thoughts are seperated by a DMs actions they are also taken from their fantasy. Which is why they play they play the game in the first part.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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FWIW, characters don't need wealth to be competent. The game can make it feel that way with all its numbers and math, but in reality, a couple of extra pluses here and there aren't required to have fun.
It's funny, I'm (relatively) new to the game, especially higher levels. Being the total pansy that I am, every single PC I've made up until my now 5th-level sorceress has been an AC whore, which (with none of them being monks) requires a ludicrously high percentage of wealth to keep up.
My sorceress has not spent a dime on AC, and might not ever do so. Suddenly there's all this cash, and I keep thinking "I'M RICH!!! I'M GOING TO BUY ALL OF THE THINGS!!! ALL OF THEM!!!"
;D
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FWIW, characters don't need wealth to be competent. The game can make it feel that way with all its numbers and math, but in reality, a couple of extra pluses here and there aren't required to have fun.
While I place build above wealth in the power scheme, I think this is demonstrably at least partially untrue.
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FWIW, characters don't need wealth to be competent. The game can make it feel that way with all its numbers and math, but in reality, a couple of extra pluses here and there aren't required to have fun.While I place build above wealth in the power scheme, I think this is demonstrably at least partially untrue.
Please demonstrate. Beyond a few very basic things like a spellbook, spell component pouch, witch's familar, holy symbol, etc, what equipment is required to have fun?
Are there certain (most?) builds that can have MORE fun with a lot of wealth? Yep.
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FWIW, characters don't need wealth to be competent. The game can make it feel that way with all its numbers and math, but in reality, a couple of extra pluses here and there aren't required to have fun.While I place build above wealth in the power scheme, I think this is demonstrably at least partially untrue.Please demonstrate. Beyond a few very basic things like a spellbook, spell component pouch, witch's familar, holy symbol, etc, what equipment is required to have fun?
Are there certain (most?) builds that can have MORE fun with a lot of wealth? Yep.
My demonstration is any given encounter that grinds down the PCs through raw math, not any decision making on their part. An encounter that a) must be encountered and b) whose difficulty is predicated on huge amounts of raw damage or raw armor class.
NPC HD scale non-linearly with PC level, and so this becomes an increasingly large threat as the tiers increase. This scaling HD makes it progressively harder for "outside the box" schema to function.
My caveat here is that PC deaths and TPKs are not "fun".
It essentially boils down to any situation where roleplay can not overcome the rollplay generated by a given scenario. Yeah, you can skate quite a bit in PFS, but it only takes a couple times to eat all your prestige.
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It's funny that the person has the most combined games played and games GM'd finds it fun (often) when their PC dies.
Every fight is avoidable to some degree, however, there are always consequences.
Smart Play > Smart Builds > PC Wealth so much so that a really smart player with a good build can "have fun" with minimal wealth.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It's funny that the person has the most combined games played and games GM'd finds it fun (often) when their PC dies.
That's not too surprising. If you only play once a month and never GM, that 7th-level PC represents two full years of play.
If you level a PFS character every month, and you have 5 PCs waiting their turns to see a table, then the death of a single character might well be less wrenching.
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It's funny that the person has the most combined games played and games GM'd finds it fun (often) when their PC dies.
Every fight is avoidable to some degree, however, there are always consequences.
Smart Play > Smart Builds > PC Wealth so much so that a really smart player with a good build can "have fun" with minimal wealth.
Maybe. But I think the person in question is probably a statistical outlier.
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It's funny that the person has the most combined games played and games GM'd finds it fun (often) when their PC dies.That's not too surprising. If you only play once a month and never GM, that 7th-level PC represents two full years of play.
If you level a PFS character every month, and you have 5 PCs waiting their turns to see a table, then the death of a single character might well be less wrenching.
This, too. Players with a huge backlog of GM credit are likely not as attached to individual PCs.
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This, too. Players with a huge backlog of GM credit are likely not as attached to individual PCs.It's funny that the person has the most combined games played and games GM'd finds it fun (often) when their PC dies.That's not too surprising. If you only play once a month and never GM, that 7th-level PC represents two full years of play.
If you level a PFS character every month, and you have 5 PCs waiting their turns to see a table, then the death of a single character might well be less wrenching.
Statistical outlier or not, it's an example of how fun simply can't be defined for the entire Society as a whole. Sure the (vast) majority of players may feel like they can't have fun w/o equipment, but there's certainly a small portion of the player base that would enjoy the challenges of having gear taken or destroyed wealth-curve be damned.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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David, let me reiterate my position.
When a party runs into intelligent demons, they're running into something raw and primal, an intelligence that's eons old, and not just hateful, but composed of hate itself. It's not that they want some outside goal, and the party is in their way, and so needs to be destroyed. Rather, their goal is to harm the PCs, make them suffer, and finally murder them. If they can get the PCs to betray their own ideals, that's just the sweeter.
I want that encounter to stand out, distinct from wicked people or crazy elves or dragons even powerful devils. If you walk into a fight with a demon, you need to do so with your eyes open: I'm playing that thing as your personal and deadly enemy, who will stop at nothing to hurt you and kill you.
Taking your afore-mentioned 18,315-gp weapon and sinking it into your faction leader's heart while disguised as you is not out of the question.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16
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I would NOT recommend permanently nuking someone's treasured magic items in PFS play. While such an act would be totally in character for a demon, it could permanently handicap the involved character.
In a home game, other party members could ease the loss by lending or giving him equipment they don't need. They could allow him an extra share of treasure for a while. The GM could place a couple of interesting items into another monster's hoard or could run a special adventure where the party goes after the offending demon to steal items back or take revenge.
Unlike a home campaign, the structure of organized play does not allow GMs and other players to adapt scenarios this way. Missing items could become a permanent sore point for the player, a frustration that would linger long after the scenario ended.
I do not mean that items should be entirely proof against loss or destruction. If the party squares off agaisnt a pack of rust monsters or a giant with Improved Sunder, they need to be ready for some unpleasantness. I just mean that such incidents should be few and far between, not part of the standard tactics of the season's most common foes.
Furthermore, demons cause misery and woe, crushing their foes' hearts with their cruel cunning. While PLAYERS might be heartbroken over lost magic items, I don't see heroic adventurers as caught up in their equipment and tools. "Foolish mortal! Now that I have brought your pitiful band to its knees, your sufferings shall be exquisite! On the frame of pain, I shall make your MAGIC SWORD scream for mercy!"
I have to agree with David on this one.
I understand where you are coming from Chris, but I also feel this is better suited for a home campaign.
At home, you are going to have a group of friends that you most likely know very well, and how they would respond to losing an expensive item permanently. Nevermind the fact the item can be replaced (eventually) through WBL.
With Society, as you well know, you have a large player base with a multitude of differing characteristics and perspectives. The more experienced players, who have probably experienced loss in not only death, but items, are more likely to take it in stride and possibly even appreciate the challenge of going on with their character -18,000 GP in wealth.
However, the majority of players, even ones who have played for awhile, are just not going to find that enjoyable at all.
It can be said “only a +2 or +3 is not that big of a difference in the end”, but that is the viewpoint of an experienced player and one who wants the extra challenge. Most players are going to see losing an extremely expensive item that ‘cannot’ be replaced in any form. Sure, they could be rebuy the item, but they will always be down that amount of wealth.
And where I understand that’s what you want in a sense, something that is hard hitting and a real consequence, I am pretty certain most players are just going to be angry and possibly not want to play Society anymore. And I know none of us want that.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Taking your afore-mentioned 18,315-gp weapon and sinking it into your faction leader's heart while disguised as you is not out of the question.
I don't understand why the demon gives a crap what weapon he uses when he disguises himself as you to frame you for an assassination.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Well, let me back up and be a little more serious for a second.
1) I don't think I've said that a demon would seek out a PC's equipment. Rather, that doing so is not off the table. If somebody pulls a blade, brags about his demon-killing weapon, and strikes down a shadow demon with it, then I think it might grow more and more likely that a near-by glabrezu might decide to focus on that weapon.
And if the PS charges in, vowing to kill a bunch of fiends in the name of Col. Maldriss, then the glabrezu might have an idea for where that blade might go. That's why we call them "treachery demons".
2) By the time your PC is shelling out 18 K for a weapon, she's got at least 36 Fame, which means she's at least 7th level, and likely 9th or higher. That suggests she has some other resources at hand to recover such a weapon.
3) High-level PCs going up against challenging demonic opponents, a half-dozen assignments before they retire? I really don't feel too bad about that carrying very serious risks. That's what makes for thrilling stories, years later.
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I had a glabrezu kill a PCs entire family for this year's special.
True story.
Makes me wonder on hypotheticals now! If the choice for a PFS PC was this fate, or the Glabrezu takes their 18,315 gp weapon... How many people would pick one over the other...
Such an intriguing thought exercise...
I have one character who would choose to save his family without thinking twice (Paladin). And I have one character who would let his family die (the Glabrezu would just be saving him the trouble!).
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David, take a look at some of the tactics-as-written that demons are supposed to follow. Without spoilers, read through "Demons Revisited", and know that the opponents in PFS are working under the same guidelines.
Actually, I've looked at some as written demon tactics from scenarios and I've never seen anything like this. I've seen some "attack one guy till they're dead" though.
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I had a glabrezu kill a PCs entire family for this year's special.True story.
Makes me wonder on hypotheticals now! If the choice for a PFS PC was this fate, or the Glabrezu takes their 18,315 gp weapon... How many people would pick one over the other...
Such an intriguing thought exercise...
I have one character who would choose to save his family without thinking twice (Paladin). And I have one character who would let his family die (the Glabrezu would just be saving him the trouble!).
How does this work in PFS? Next scenario, they're just back alive again right? Or was there some kind of sheet the PC got?
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There is a huge difference between sundering a weapon and teleporting it into the abyss where is can not be recovered.
I think if the DM strategy is to punish the player's goals with the mosters it is as much metagame cheating as a player playing with info they should not have either. A DM knowing they have a super special sowrd and the the demon targeting that because the DM heard them bragging about just purchasing it at the end of last adventure is just garbage DMing.
Now there are variations that make it more and more acceptable. But I would hate to hear about DM metagaming to targeting specific players. I am a little scared some jerk DM will read this thread, get ideas and think. I am going to trash John Doe's character with the next DM session by having him loss the sword I saw him buy. Sunder his locked gauntlet, telekentic the sword out of his hand, swoop in to to steal it, and teleport to a volcano.