Longbow ambiguities. Blessing of Gorum ambiguities.

[porkupine]

I seek clarification on the Blesing of Gorum and the Longbow that is covered in neither the rules nor the FAQ.

1. If I use my MELEE die when using the greataxe, does that mean I can't add two dice using the Blessing of Gorum? This blessing only works on strength-based combat checks.

2. If I use the longbow, it rolls both a dexterity die and a strength die. Is this still a strength-based combat check, so that the Blessing of Gorum adds two dice? Which of the two dice (dex, str) does the blessing of the gods add? I think it's probably dex, but this situation is not covered in the rules, nor in the FAQ. Since I've used my str die, I could argue that the blessing of gorum works. It's ambiguous.

I imagine for the first question, the answer will be: yes, you can use the two additional dice for the melee check.

I imagine for the second question, the answer will be: no, it is a dex check. But that flies in the face of the answer to the first question, since the only thing that could make the melee combat check a strength based check is that you're rolling your strength die, which you're also doing with the longbow.

[Captain Bulldozer]

1) Melee is a subskill of Strength. There is no melee die... instead you use your strength die and and any modifiers you get from strength and or melee. As such, YES you can play BoG to add dice to your check when using a greataxe (or any other strength/melee based weapon).

2) When using the longbow, this counts as a dexterity based check. As such the BoG would not add multiple dice to the check.

So, it seems that your guesses were correct. 1) Yes, 2) No.

[porkupine]

Captain Bulldozer wrote:

1) Melee is a subskill of Strength. There is no melee die... instead you use your strength die and and any modifiers you get from strength and or melee. As such, YES you can play BoG to add dice to your check when using a greataxe (or any other strength/melee based weapon).

2) When using the longbow, this counts as a dexterity based check. As such the BoG would not add multiple dice to the check.

So, it seems that your guesses were correct. 1) Yes, 2) No.

Sigh. No, you're wrong. There is a melee die. It just happens that, if you have it on your character sheet, it uses your strength die. Look here. Mike acknowledges that if your Arcane die rolls your intelligence die, then it counts as an intelligence-based check. But Arcane is not a subset of the Intelligence die. Look at Seoni, for example. For her, Arcane appears under her Charisma.

[h4ppy]

Try it a different way: In all currently known circumstances, MELEE is a sub-skill of STR (for those characters which have MELEE on their character cards. The others just use 1d4 which is not based on anything).

When you test your MELEE skill, you are rolling your STR die and adding your MELEE bonus. It's a Melee check but you can also play any boon which boosts a Strength check. For the purposes of Gorum it is a STR-based combat check and you get two dice.

When you use the Longbow you have a DEX-based combat check (RANGED is a sub-skill of DEX in all known cases) but then add a Strength die as a bonus. It's not the basis of the check (which you chose in the "Determine which die you're using" action of the Encounter resolution). As such BoGorum would only add one die to the check.

For all sub-skills you have to remember the following:

- if a sub-skill is not written on your character card then it has no parent skill for you. E.g. If Lini tests MELEE it is 1d4 with no 'parent'. (Maybe she is using her charisma to get the foe off-guard, then 'kick him in the nads', rather than her strength... but whatever she does she isn't very good at it and only gets 1d4)

- if a sub-skill is written on your character card then it has a parent skill as written. This relationship exists for your character in the way it's defined on your card. (E.g. Seoni's ARCANE is based on her CHA, Ezren's ARCANE based on his INT)

- each check has one 'base' skill. It's the skill/die you choose in the "Determin which die you're using" action of the check.

- if you're testing a sub-skill written on your character card (i.e. you chose this as the basis of your check) then you can play cards/powers which boost either the sub-skill or the parent skill to help you out.

I hope that helps!

[porkupine]

Yes, h4ppy, these seem like a consistent interpretation of the rules. This is my interpretation too. This is how I've been playing the game.

However, until it comes from the horse's mouth (ie is clarified in an FAQ) it is still just an interpretation.

[Nathaniel Gousset]

Just for everyone that keep using skill and sub-skill... Where in the PAGC rulebook, FAQ ans clarification did you find this classification that you use to justify your answers ?

Thoses are terms you borrowed from Pathfinder RPG to justify your understanding and the way you play the game. But thoses terms NEED to be explained clarified and written black on White in PAGC rulebook for them to be used in an explanation.

I know it make sense, I know your experience (and mine) tell you it was so... But thoses things SHOULD have been in the book. Because right now it is just opinion and interprétation not backed by rules and thus no more valid than the other way to read it.

[porkupine]

Nathaniel: thank god, some common sense. I don't come from an RPG background. I come from a boardgame background.

Cards don't say "this changes a combat check into a Strength check", even though the rules say that this will happen. I'm left to extrapolate. So a card like "The Wand of Force Missile" tells me I can role 4d4 with the Arcane and Force traits, and I'm happy to do so. But wait, Arcane is a skill type, meaning that it changes the skill type and then can't use a weapon? Why doesn't the card say so! The check can happily acquire magic, force and fire traits. But if it acquires the Arcane trait, that stops it from acquiring the Dexterity or Strength trait? This wouldn't be a problem if the card just said exactly what it does on it.

It's painfully ambiguous. It's also painful that the intention is sometimes clear, but what is written is not. It's even more painful that playtesting demonstrates these shortcomings in terminology and presentation, but they still exist in the final product.

And the second or third printings may make stuff like this clear. But I have a first edition printing. I am SOL.

This ambiguity could all be made clear if a weapon said: this changes a combat check into a strength-based check. You roll this dice and that dice.

[Captain Bulldozer]

porkupine wrote:

Sigh. No, you're wrong. There is a melee die. It just happens that, if you have it on your character sheet, it uses your strength die. Look here. Mike acknowledges that if your Arcane die rolls your intelligence die, then it counts as an intelligence-based check. But Arcane is not a subset of the Intelligence die. Look at Seoni, for example. For her, Arcane appears under her Charisma.

Since you're in the mood to quote other threads, you should have checked out this one before replying: What is a die?

Any skill which uses the die of another skill is a "subskill." This is not a definition found in the rule book, only one many of us (regardless of background) have been using on these forums for a while now. It's not to say, as you seemed to suggest, that the subskill is ALWAYS a subskill of a particular skill. I.e. Arcane might be found as a subskill of different primary skills, like intelligence, wisdom, charisma, etc.

The only time you specifically have a designated die for melee (or any other skill) is either the baseline 1d4, or if your character sheet specifies otherwise. In the case of all currently known characters who have the melee skill, that skill uses the character's strength die. My apologies if my original response was in some way unclear.

[kysmartman]

The sub-skills are called sub-skills because every single one of them are based on a skill thus why you only have 6 skills but can have multiple sub-skills even picking some up when you choose your specialty after Adventure #3 (this is the double-sided card you don't use yet).

Now that I've clarified what they are called, forget about that and view them simply as a permanent bonus added to certain skill rolls. Ezren is really Intelligent, but if he's reading an Arcane book/scroll, he's even smarter with a permanent +2 added to the check. Val is very strong in general, but put him into a fight with a Strength-based weapon, and he knows how to fight so a permanent +3 is added.

Why you are demanding special treatment because you choose to not accept what the cards say is beyond me. Every single weapon is simply "A skill or sub-skill + the weapon modifier". How do I know this magical knowledge? I read every weapon card that has been released. Is the Longbow slightly different? Yes, because its weapon modifier is variable, but that is still the weapon modifier because it is in the same after the "skill/sub-skill" slot on the card (after the + ).

Blessings are written in a way so everyone could conceivably use them thus they don't have a sub-skill listed because everyone might not have that sub-skill. That's why Pharasma says Spell not Arcane or Divine spell. That's why Gorum says Strength-based combat check because not everyone has Melee.

If you just accept how I've described what sub-skills are (which is how the designers put them in the game btw because again rules and how the cards relate to each other), you would stop getting headaches playing the game.

[h4ppy]

I've never played any RPG... sub-skill is just a term I use to explain what they are and how they work (in line with the rules as - mostly - written)

[Vic Wertz]

You are correct that the current rules do actually fail to define what a (for example) Dexterity-based check is; that's something we'll be FAQing soon. The answer is that the action in the rulebook called "Determine Which Die You're Using" determines the die the check is based on. If that action results in your rolling your Dexterity die for the check, it's a Dexterity-based check.

(The reason we don't use the term "sub-skill" or anything like it in the rulebook is because it's really not relevant. There's nothing in the game that requires you to remember that [for example] Acrobatics is related to Dexterity. If you have the Acrobatics skill, your character card tells you that making a Acrobatics check involves rolling your Dexterity die, and that makes the check a Dexterity-based check. If you don't have the Acrobatics skill, then you can roll a d4 for the check, but it is *not* a Dexterity-based check.)

[h4ppy]

By the way, is everybody clear on what an unmodified Strength die is?

Good. Just checking ;)

(hint: it can be 'modified' and is not just what's printed on your character card)

[Vic Wertz]

Vic Wertz wrote:

You are correct that the current rules do actually fail to define what a (for example) Dexterity-based check is; that's something we'll be FAQing soon. The answer is that the action in the rulebook called "Determine Which Die You're Using" determines the die the check is based on. If that action results in your rolling your Dexterity die for the check, it's a Dexterity-based check.

FAQ updated.