First off, I am sincerely sorry to be responsible for yet another paladin thread. Not sorry enough to just not make one, though, so let's begin.
I'm running Home Under The Range, and when Acting Subgeneral Farhorn explained the quest for the PCs, he offered the default amount of gold (the adventure makes it clear that he can be bargained up to 900 gp, tops).
The paladin, played by the player who so far is the most into roleplaying (the players are all new to the game), asked for 850. He made an initial Diplomacy check and bungled it, so Farhorn refused.
Then, the paladin turned away and started to leave, saying the dwarves could find someone else to get killed on their behalf. Since he was of course bluffing (I'll make it clear that he was going to help no matter what, he just wanted to see if he could get some extra cash), I had him roll, and he nailed it.
Farhorn caved and paid up, though he was quite firm on not going any higher. The group accepted the price and went shopping.
The player of the paladin has been fairly wary of breaking the Code, and I told him that haggling like this was probably okay. Previously, I had let him coup de grace an unconscious goblin bandit who'd tried to kill them. Obviously, I'm usually fairly lax on what constitutes an evil act.
But I was curious, so I looked at the Code of Conduct and noticed that "lying" is against the rules. Does this mean serious lies? Or can bluffing for a higher paycheck get you de-powered?
I'm pretty solid on paladins' rules about evil, but these more specific rules I'm unsure on. How would you handle it in your games? Would you tell the player to watch his step?
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Hey look, a paladin code of conduct thread! Anyways, the answer is always that its really up to the GM and player and that discussion helps so there's no surprises and everyone is on the same level.
How would you handle it in your games? Would you tell the player to watch his step?
I usually let players determine their own code of conduct and let them stick with that, in the hopes that it creates an environment where they can live up with any ideal that they might want to champion. In the case of going with a normal paladin, I'd probably as if that's how they feel an honest paladin would act. I feel like by RAW its not the best, but its not harming anyone and he still intended to help so its hard to say that its the worst. I know a few GMs who like to put up warnings like being visited by their deity in some manner or having their powers start to be a little wonky, I like to do the talk personally myself, and I feel like the latter option is a bit too much of a surprise. What you do is really up to you though.
I like the idea of letting him build his own Code of Conduct--in my mind, paladins should have about as strict a code as monk's or barbarians, with just the added "no evil acts".
I try my best to discuss my paladin rules, especially with new players. I'll contact him now and see what he thinks. Thanks!
Oh, also, the guy's been eating a lot of halfling babies recently. Should I have Pelor warn him about that?
I like the idea of letting him build his own Code of Conduct--in my mind, paladins should have about as strict a code as monk's or barbarians, with just the added "no evil acts".
I try my best to discuss my paladin rules, especially with new players. I'll contact him now and see what he thinks. Thanks!
Hope that goes well!
Oh, also, the guy's been eating a lot of halfling babies recently. Should I have Pelor warn him about that?
Pelor the burning hate would like you to eat larger portions actually. Pelor is weird like that. I believe some of the other forces of good might want you to stop though.
Why not? He can be greedy, as long as he doesn't break the code.
Note the part in my post about lying--which is part of the Code.
The way I see it, the Code should say "No lying to harm others or for personal gain at the expense of others" but that's a bit wordy.
Sidesteps a lot of the issues with "So can the Paladin lie to save his friends or not?" the answer should always be yes.
I'd actually give this guy a bit of a warning for that Bluff though. This is definitely lying for personal gain, though the fact that he fully intends to help the guy anyway drops it out of "Possible Fall" territory entirely IMO.
This is a sort of intense haggling, not doing something like running a con on poor people.
Read the post again, Hama. The paladin explicitly Bluffed when he pretended to walk out on Farhorn.
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What's he spending it on? Arms and armor to battle evil? A luxurious level of upkeep?
Well, they aren't getting paid up front, but he convinced a shopkeeper to basically give him a masterwork longsword in exchange for being paid extra after the mission's completed.
I wouldn't let that fly in my group, but then it seems I am stricter in what I consider an evil act, too. Not a fan of Paladins lying to get more pay. Undermines the nobility of the class in my eyes.
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I agree with TOZ.
Longer version: Paladin being greedy, demanding better part of the loot, more pay or whatever so he can be a better warrior against evil is ok by me.
Paladin lying to save innocents, to prevent evil gaining information, also ok, in fact expected.
But combine these two, I would be giving the player a warning.
BTW, TriOmegaZero's profile has a nice explanation of Code of Conduct.
At the start of a campaign, I try to have a sit-down meeting with each player to assist with background stories and to go over the character write-up. I check the math, and talk with the player about the character's goals-- both in-character and mechanically. (I try to keep the latter vague, like, "intending to work toward this prestige class," or "will focus on this combat style," or "plan to concentrate on out-of-combat activity.") I find this very valuable as a GM to craft my story around the players' objectives.
That said, whenever a player wants to run a paladin, I use this opportunity to talk with the player to figure out the player's vision for the character. I'll then work with the player to help with in-game decisions that will help the character with the player's goal. That's when we talk about this particular paladin's code: Not every paladin follows the same code!
A big part of putting together a paladin's code is the paladin's patron deity, and/or specific sect or order of the religion that the paladin is serving. Not every Lawful Good church has the same goals and objectives, and paladins of a particular faith will have a code that's in line with the church.
For example, I would say that it would pretty much always be anathema for a paladin of the God of Mercy and Redemption to ever use a coup de grace maneuver on an enemy. However, a paladin of the God of Justice and Righteousness might consider a summary execution of a murderer to be completely justified.
Another example: lying. I've always made a distinction between lying for personal gain (or to hide your own or others' misdeeds) and providing misinformation to enemies. It's entirely justified for a captured paladin to provide fale intelligence to the enemy. Where you get into gray areas are things like bluffing someone to get an advantage, or information. Such lies would certainly be against the code of a paladin of the God of Truth; however, perhaps creative storytelling is a virtue for a paladin of the God of Art and Music, and spinning a good yarn is considered a perfectly acceptable tactic.
Back to your own example: I would think that haggling a good price would be entirely correct for a paladin of the God of Commerce. It would not have been appropriate for a paladin of the God of Duty and Honor to haggle a price for a rescue mission at all. For that paladin, succeeding at the mission should be reward enough! I would note the greediness, and if it became a pattern, I would both warn the player directly, and would give a not-so-subtle in-game hint to the PC as well. (e.g. a disturbing dream, a divine sign of displeasure, etc.)
TL/DR: Depends on the paladin's faith. This could be absolutely fine, or it could be significant breach of code. Before play, I would sit down with the player to come up with an appropriate code specific for that PC's faith and/or military order. That way, player and GM are on the same page.
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I agree with TOZ.
Longer version: Paladin being greedy, demanding better part of the loot, more pay or whatever so he can be a better warrior against evil is ok by me.
Paladin lying to save innocents, to prevent evil gaining information, also ok, in fact expected.
But combine these two, I would be giving the player a warning.
BTW, TriOmegaZero's profile has a nice explanation of Code of Conduct.
Justification for greed still doesn't change the fact that it's greed. Your longer version sounds like a greedy player trying to hide behind a cop out reason. "Oh pay me more so I can better fight evil." If I was that person doing the hiring I would have told the paladin that he should be fighting evil no matter how much money you get.
That is a no no I'm afraid.
Varies from DM to DM what a nono, of course.
First off, I am sincerely sorry to be responsible for yet another paladin thread. Not sorry enough to just not make one, though, so let's begin.
I'm running Home Under The Range, and when Acting Subgeneral Farhorn explained the quest for the PCs, he offered the default amount of gold (the adventure makes it clear that he can be bargained up to 900 gp, tops).
The paladin, played by the player who so far is the most into roleplaying (the players are all new to the game), asked for 850. He made an initial Diplomacy check and bungled it, so Farhorn refused.
Then, the paladin turned away and started to leave, saying the dwarves could find someone else to get killed on their behalf. Since he was of course bluffing (I'll make it clear that he was going to help no matter what, he just wanted to see if he could get some extra cash), I had him roll, and he nailed it.
Farhorn caved and paid up, though he was quite firm on not going any higher. The group accepted the price and went shopping.
The player of the paladin has been fairly wary of breaking the Code, and I told him that haggling like this was probably okay. Previously, I had let him coup de grace an unconscious goblin bandit who'd tried to kill them. Obviously, I'm usually fairly lax on what constitutes an evil act.
But I was curious, so I looked at the Code of Conduct and noticed that "lying" is against the rules. Does this mean serious lies? Or can bluffing for a higher paycheck get you de-powered?
I'm pretty solid on paladins' rules about evil, but these more specific rules I'm unsure on. How would you handle it in your games? Would you tell the player to watch his step?
** spoiler omitted **...
Although it is a bluff, I am not sure it is a lie.
If the paladin values his services highly, and someone refuses to pay, then he says he is walking if they don't cough up, I don't see a lie. If the angry hirer said, because of your insolence sword boy, I will pay you 400 coppers max, the paladin would indeed walk (likely, especially if the player is offended), or he caves, or he is a fool.
A bluff to be heading off elsewhere doesn't seem a lie to me, pally just wanted to get paid (and hopefully donate a lot of that to the church, or wrong edition? Are they just greedy magical fighters now?).
I'll take another one. A new person joins the group, it is evening. Pally with skill focus hide says he is heading off scouting, but hides nearby to watch the new guy. Did he lie? Well, he scouted a bit and now he is watching the new guy for deviousness (he might slit everyone else's throats after all). A lie? Perhaps it is merely not telling the whole truth.
This thread is kind of funny, can the servants of the light get away with white lies?
IMO, paladins don't have to be perfect, but they certainly need to be a cut above the average money-grubbing adventurer.
Would I have a paladin fall for feigning extortion? No. But he would definitely be on thin ice. And if he keeps up such activities, even if he doesn't fall, he will soon find himself with a less than savory reputation. Other members of his order may decide to have a talk with him about his behavior.
Good potential for rp. Hassling a public figure over rumour? Sounds like something conservative religious people might do, keh keh khe.
This thread is kind of funny, can the servants of the light get away with white lies?
They fall if they step on a lady bug actually. No exceptions!
Indeed, it is a truly terrible sin of unwarranted aggression.
The pal code is a bit strange...
You don't have to be conservative or religious to have a talk with somebody who represents you, about being more professional and showing better decorum.
I think feigning or strategically misleading in battle/war are about the only "little white lies" a paladin should be able to get away with.
If a pally puts the cost of his services at a high mark, and someone won't pay that, I am not sure how haggling techniques are lying.
Seems thin. There isn't a requirement for pallies to work at bargain bin rates and never shall they do anything to be paid a decent wage.
If he doesn't charge well how else is he going to stay at WBL? Next thing you know he's going to want open palm or light side points for not taking rewards. That'd just be silly.
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What that paladin did was called deception which is just another name for lying.To equate that is to lose nuances to black-and-white thinking.
Its misleading no matter how you look at it. The paladin made the person believe he was going to leave if he wasn't paid more money. That is pure disception.
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Its misleading no matter how you look at it. The paladin made the person believe he was going to leave if he wasn't paid more money. That is pure disception.And whether that counts as lying is a matter of opinion.
Actually it's not a matter of opinion. Misleading 'is' lying by definition. How the DM handles it is a matter of opinion and trying to state a fact as opinion is nonsense.
Actually it's not a matter of opinion. Misleading 'is' lying by definition.Then the paladin falls the moment he tries to fool his opponent on the battlefield.
Sun Tzu was clearly not a Pathfinder paladin. As all warfare is based on deception young grasshopper shallowsoul. To even begin to kill a person with blade, deception is incredibly important. How do you think you get around dex and ac? BAB is tricky moves, feints, re-positioning, countering the opponent, misleading them and then pushing the advantage created by that trickery.
Actually it's not a matter of opinion. Misleading 'is' lying by definition. How the DM handles it is a matter of opinion and trying to state a fact as opinion is nonsense.Its misleading no matter how you look at it. The paladin made the person believe he was going to leave if he wasn't paid more money. That is pure disception.And whether that counts as lying is a matter of opinion.Definition of Misleading: giving the wrong idea or impression.
Definition of Deception: the action of deceiving someone.
Definition of "to deceive": cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage.Definition of "to lie": tell a lie or lies.
Definition of a Lie: an intentionally false statement.Queue the song, "One of these things is not like the others"...
Sorry, but "by definition", neither deceiving nor misleading require lying.
Yeah. An example, facing a desperate situation with impressionable people nearby a paladin acts confidently, but he isn't actually confident. Is he lying or misleading? Does he fall?
So some misleading is lying and some misleading is not lying?
Some misleading acts by a paladin are okay? Others are not?
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There are more subtle ways of haggling that are way better than breaking the code by uttering a complete lie. They do require more thought on the player's part, but then that is the price of playing a bastion of Good and Law with all its significant perks.
But really, Farhorn should have acted as if he believed the Paladin, and not like a haggler who folds because he found a better haggler.
What would you have done if the Paladin had honestly meant what he said ? Because that was the situation as Farhorn perceived it.
I highly doubt that he would have proposed more gold. Unless he thinks he can bribe a Paladin.
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If he doesn't charge well how else is he going to stay at WBL? Next thing you know he's going to want open palm or light side points for not taking rewards. That'd just be silly.Thats a BS excuse because WBL isn't for you to worry about, it's the DM's responsibility.
Well... its not an excuse, its a joke. Your supposed to laugh, haha! Its a reference to Bioware games, specifically Jade Empire and Knights of the Old Republic, where you would give up your reward for extra good guy points. I believe their DnD licensed games used the same logic for alignment actually, but I don't own those to know.