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If my Animal Companion (a Large Axe Beak with Intelligence 6, in this case) takes the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, can it make Unarmed Strike attacks? How much damage do they do? Does it get iterative attacks with its Unarmed Strike attacks based on its BAB?
Since "Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using" could an animal companion take the Dragon Style or Crane Style feat, if they took Improved Unarmed Strike first?
Can a Int 6 animal companion take IUS? Yes
What is damage for a large sized IUS? 1d4
Does it get iterative attacks? Yes, unarmed strike is not considered a natural weapon per the weapon description.
Could an Int 6 AC take style feats to build on IUS? Yes.
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Can a Int 6 animal companion take IUS? Yes
What is damage for a large sized IUS? 1d4
Does it get iterative attacks? Yes, unarmed strike is not considered a natural weapon per the weapon description.
Could an Int 6 AC take style feats to build on IUS? Yes.
But if you want styles to build ALSO on the natural atks then:
Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
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Before you go any further, regardless of RAW, talk to your DM! It's a weird one and he might not allow it.
I hope he does allow it because it's just funny!
DM: The Orc attacks your mount.
PC: It deflects the attack with its hoof!
DM: *face palm* Did I really hear that?
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Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Didn't know about that feat! LOVE IT!
Before you go any further, regardless of RAW, talk to your DM! It's a weird one and he might not allow it.
It's Pathfinder Society, so there's no single GM to talk to. The game is played pure RAW.
I hope he does allow it because it's just funny!
DM: The Orc attacks your mount.
PC: It deflects the attack with its hoof!
DM: *face palm* Did I really hear that?
It's a bird, so, it would use Crane Wing with its Wing. :)
Oddly, if the axbeak is in anyway similar to an ostrich physiologically, it might be an even better unarmed fighter than a man.
While it sounds bizarre, you must remember, an ostrich is a creature with a max speed of around 40 miles per hour while weighing about the same as a human. While humans have been known to get almost to 30, those are exceptional people, while the speed for the ostrich is average. So overall, they have very powerful legs.
You must also pay attention to the design of the leg. Unlike a human leg, the 'foot' area of the ostrich stretches directly in front of it, allowing it to kick in a way similar to a human punch. Adding in the fact that they have large, hard claws, and you can begin to see how their legs strength can easily be used to do devastating damage. I know that the wiki article on the birds uses the word "disembowel".
But this is all me just being silly.
Before you go any further, regardless of RAW, talk to your DM! It's a weird one and he might not allow it.
I hope he does allow it because it's just funny!
DM: The Orc attacks your mount.
PC: It deflects the attack with its hoof!
DM: *face palm* Did I really hear that?
Unfortunately, I don't think a hoof counts as a free hand, which is required for Crane Wing. Though it should, because Rule of Funny and Rule of Cool.
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Before you go any further, regardless of RAW, talk to your DM! It's a weird one and he might not allow it.It's Pathfinder Society, so there's no single GM to talk to. The game is played pure RAW.
The same social etiquette applies in PFS. While it might be RAW, bunch of GM's will raise an eyebrow of uncertainty with this concept and variety of GM's will rule differently. Expect table variance with this.
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The same social etiquette applies in PFS. While it might be RAW, bunch of GM's will raise an eyebrow of uncertainty with this concept and variety of GM's will rule differently. Expect table variance with this.
Before you go any further, regardless of RAW, talk to your DM! It's a weird one and he might not allow it.It's Pathfinder Society, so there's no single GM to talk to. The game is played pure RAW.
There's no rules questions, only an amusing usage of feats. There's not gonna be table variation unless the GM is intentionally trying to antagonize a player over this non-issue.
There's no rules questions, only an amusing usage of feats. There's not gonna be table variation unless the GM is intentionally trying to antagonize a player over this non-issue.The same social etiquette applies in PFS. While it might be RAW, bunch of GM's will raise an eyebrow of uncertainty with this concept and variety of GM's will rule differently. Expect table variance with this.
Before you go any further, regardless of RAW, talk to your DM! It's a weird one and he might not allow it.It's Pathfinder Society, so there's no single GM to talk to. The game is played pure RAW.
Well, here is a legitimate rules question: Would you have to push your animal to attack like this every single time? I mean, the rules do say that wild animals prefer to use their natural weapons instead of manufactured weapons (I am a bit fuzzy on this, but I am fairly sure that unarmed strikes count for that), even if they are physically able to use said weapons.
Getting an animal to perform an action that goes against its natural instincts seems like a handle animal problem. Thus, we come up to how a GM might interfere: by face the 25 DC of "pushing" your AC every time you want the animal to attack this way. And it is not like there is a trick for telling an animal to kick something (unless it is through a hoof or something else the animal is used to using). Through this, you can see how a GM can still hamper this build without specifically disallowing it.
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There's no rules questions, only an amusing usage of feats. There's not gonna be table variation unless the GM is intentionally trying to antagonize a player over this non-issue.
As devil's advocate, I could say that there will be table variation because some GMs won't allow players to troll the system by giving their animal companions feats that they cannot use.
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Any creature with a physical body can make an unarmed strike.BBT, please cite the rule where it says that any creature with a physical body can make an unarmed strike, specifically pertaining to creatures with natural weapons.
So, a Tiefling with claws is incapable of making unarmed strikes?
That's your stance?
Any creature with a physical body can make an unarmed strike.BBT, please cite the rule where it says that any creature with a physical body can make an unarmed strike, specifically pertaining to creatures with natural weapons.So, a Tiefling with claws is incapable of making unarmed strikes?
That's your stance?
Because that's the same as a snake using an unarmed strike...
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You have to provide a qualifier of capability, or incapability, of making unarmed strikes.
If you say it is natural attacks, then any PC with a natural attack is incapable of making unarmed strikes.
This is not so.
All creatures with physical bodies can make unarmed strikes.
This was true in 3.5 as well. See here.
You have to provide a qualifier of capability, or incapability, of making unarmed strikes.
If you say it is natural attacks, then any PC with a natural attack is incapable of making unarmed strikes.
This is not so.
All creatures with physical bodies can make unarmed strikes.
This was true in 3.5 as well. See here.
I would, personally, make the requirement "have physical limbs".
But this is as per raw, so yes, even a snake, if you can cite a pathfinder source that states this.
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Let's look at the Toad.
No attacks? What options does it have?
Well, let's look at the natural attack rules.
Huh? Looks like even if a creature has no natural attacks, and can't wield a weapon, it can still make an unarmed strike.
So, a Toad, can make an unarmed strike.
No feats or anything.
Okay, let's take the snake example.
You see an anaconda. You grab it around the neck, so it can't bite you.
It suddenly smacks you across the face with it's tail.
It hurts, but it is no bite.
What kind of attack was that?
It is an unarmed strike.
Unless the snake got a natural tail atk, in which case it counts like a natural atk , not an unarmed strike? There are rules against using the same members right? Or can you use Claw/Claw then punch the guy ?
Honestly , i dont really care if the PC wants his smart bird to fight like in kung fu panda , if it is fun lols, but i can see people at the PFS tables murdering the guy.
Nox Aeterna, Yes, you can't use the same appendage for more than one kind of attack. So, if the snake had a Tail attack (and used it) it couldn't use the tail to unarmed strike. But since unarmed strikes are not defined by body part, it could still make an unarmed strike (hitting you with a loop of coiled midsection or something).
Kestler, I don't see it as a loop hole, it explicitly says "any feat" it is capable of using.
Now, I think it was James who had a post or blog about intelligent animals. He said that while you can teach an intelligent animal new tricks (example was gorilla using a sword IIRC) it may just feel more comfortable with its old tricks (natural weapons).
This, to me, falls into the gray area of what kind of game you're playing and how your DM feels about its appropriateness. But the rules themselves fully support it.
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Okay, let's take the snake example.
You see an anaconda. You grab it around the neck, so it can't bite you.
It suddenly smacks you across the face with it's tail.
It hurts, but it is no bite.
What kind of attack was that?
It is an unarmed strike.
Unless the snake got a natural tail atk, in which case it counts like a natural atk , not an unarmed strike? There are rules against using the same members right? Or can you use Claw/Claw then punch the guy ?
Honestly , i dont really care if the PC wants his smart bird to fight like in kung fu panda , if it is fun lols, but i can see people at the PFS tables murdering the guy.
You can Claw/Claw, then kick.
It was just an example, to illustrate how, and when, an animal would use an unarmed strike.
Not every use of an unarmed strike is some kind damn kung fu strike, and that's what seems to trip people up.
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It's not dang grey area either.
Nothing in the rules prevents any creature from making an unarmed strike.
If you cannot flavor it right in your mind, then I am sorry for you.
If you want to houserule it out, then fine.
The core is, even if you cannot wield weapons, and have no natural attacks, you can still make an unarmed strike, because that is the one type of attack that is available to all.
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All creatures with physical bodies can make unarmed strikes.This was true in 3.5 as well. See here.
So, a Toad, can make an unarmed strike.
An unarmed strike is not some "complex martial arts"...It is hitting something with a part of your body.
Nothing in the rules prevents any creature from making an unarmed strike.
If you want to houserule it out, then fine.
The core is, even if you cannot wield weapons, and have no natural attacks, you can still make an unarmed strike, because that is the one type of attack that is available to all.
BBT, this is Pathfinder, not D&D3.5. Your comment about D&D3.5 has no bearing.
I see a lot of opinions from you, but nothing quoted from RAW that supports your assertions. Most everything you have said falls under house rules if it cannot be supported by RAW.
It doesn't. Anything can make an unarmed strike. I don't know where anyone is pulling this inability from other than "but animals can't do karate!!1". Never mind that animals are way better at improvising ways to hurt other animals with their bodies than humans are.
It's not dang grey area either.
Nothing in the rules prevents any creature from making an unarmed strike.
If you cannot flavor it right in your mind, then I am sorry for you.
If you want to houserule it out, then fine.
First, you sound very defensive for some reason.
Secondly, I already said it was entirely within the rules.Thirdly, if you look at what I actually called a "gray area" it was not the rules themselves but more the situation.
I feel you can definitely consider it a "gray area" considering Jason Bulmahn (you know, the lead designer) has a FAQ Blog post that states just because you can give an intelligent animal the feat within the rules doesn't mean the animal will use it. Here.
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Indeed.
Just because the animal can, doesn't mean it will.
I won't deny that.
That part is a gray area.
If it can, or cannot, is not.
Now, when you have an AC/Mount with a much higher intelligence, like the Nature Oracle's Mount, then it really doesn't make sense to make it difficult to make it do, things normal animals wouldn't do.
Most players that want to give their animal companion Improved Unarmed Strike, do so for Feral Combat Training.
This is to apply feats to their Natural Attacks, that they normally could not. This works, as using their natural attacks, well, comes natural.
My main point, was that unwillingness, does not mean inability.
I may be able to kill a man, but that doesn't mean I am willing to.
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Reading the link Samasboy1 posted mentioned there being a difference in sentience between Magical Beasts and Animals. Since the character in question will be taking the Celestial Servant feat, his companion will be a Int 6 Magical Beast, not an Animal. Is it, then, suddenly sentient? Does this change anything about the usage of Handle Animal and its Tricks known?