So I want to play the ultimate charmer, master manipulator but still have viability in situations where immunities limit that aspect. In the past I have played this idea with a sorcerer but recent insights have caused me to believe the bard might be the better route to go.
I am torn though as the bard never gets any real direct mind control where as the sorcerer gets dominate monster.
Thoughts?
Or
Looking for convincing arguments on either side, convince me which would be better and why.
Sorcerer
Vs.
Bard
So I want to play the ultimate charmer, master manipulator but still have viability in situations where immunities limit that aspect. In the past I have played this idea with a sorcerer but recent insights have caused me to believe the bard might be the better route to go.
I am torn though as the bard never gets any real direct mind control where as the sorcerer gets dominate monster.
Thoughts?
Or
Looking for convincing arguments on either side, convince me which would be better and why.
Sorcerer
Vs.
Bard
.
I put together a really interesting character, the only Crossblooded Sorcerer I ever thought could work - it was a Kitsune Fey/Serpent Sorcerer inspired by the 'Snakes & Foxes' imagery of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series.
Right off the bat the character gets some substantial bonuses when casting charm and especially compulsion spells and even more importantly, gains the Serpent's ability to treat animals, magical beasts and monstrous humanoids as humanoids who understand him for purpose of mind-affecting spells. That's pretty freaking huge for a character with this theme. By 7th level he has Threnodic Spell so that he can affect undead and there's even room in the build for Coaxing Spell which can add vermin and oozes to the fold.
Then there are other elements of trickery - the Kitsune feat 'Realistic Likeness' allows him to assume the form of any human (for purposes of imitation or otherwise) at will, and minor spells like Silent Image or Ghost Sound can be used for tremendous effect.
I am planning on posting the build as part of a series to get all of my favorite builds posted online, but that might be a while off yet. Let me know if you're interested and I'll be happy to share.
Sorcerer is a better option in my opinion.
Serpentine Bloodline allows you to use mibd affecting spells to animal, magical beasts and monstrous humanoids as if they were intelligent humanoids with a common language with you. That helps a lot. Add a Command undead spell and you are nearly done
Being able to dominate magical beasts at level 10 is great.
Edit: ninjaed. However, want to point that Arcane build h
Is better in the long run than Fey. Fey has +2 to compulsions (charm), while arcane has +2 to all enchantment school (including dominate)
@Wiggz - that sounds awesome, and just like the kind of character I want to play...minus the Kitsune side :)
@Gustavo - good point.
So two for sorcerer...I was really leaning bard but now....
Anyone going to bat for the bard?
However, want to point that Arcane build h
Is better in the long run than Fey. Fey has +2 to compulsions (charm), while arcane has +2 to all enchantment school (including dominate)
A couple of clarifications:
.Charms and Compulsions are two different things. Charms include the spells with 'Charm' in the title and a couple of others, but Compulsions include the vast majority of mind-affecting spells including the various Sleep, Hold and Dominate spells.
The Arcane Bloodline doesn't get that bonus until 15th level which is a pretty long time to sacrifice all those bonuses. And the Fey bloodline offers a number of other nice abilities in the meantime - including at 15th level the ability to reroll ANY spell resistance roll.
@Wiggz - that sounds awesome, and just like the kind of character I want to play...minus the Kitsune side :)
@Gustavo - good point.
So two for sorcerer...I was really leaning bard but now....
Anyone going to bat for the bard?
.
Just so you know, Kitsune appear completely human under normal circumstances and have a raical trait that grants HUGE bonuses to Sorcerers using Enchantment spells. At 12th level, the character I'm talking about can drop a DC 29 Dominate Person or Hold Monster. That's pretty hardcore. By the time Spell Perfection rolls around, its game over for 75% of the foes you'll face.As far as the Bard goes, you're really talking two different things. A Bard is a skill monkey and a buffer first and foremost... any 'charming' they do would be through the use of Diplomacy and Intimidate as their spells often have much lower DC's than that of Sorcerers. Between that and being feat-starved, they will have a very difficult time relying on their spells to control others, especially foes who have Spell Resistance to go along with high Will saves.
There are many great Bard builds, but not very many Bard 'mind-controller' builds that would even qualify as good.
Bards get more skill points, which is huge, it really helps to be able to Sense Motive and negotiate and bluff and intimidate, plus have enough knowledge that you know what you're facing and how to deal withit.
Charming isn't just about using your magic to control: it's a whole approach to life and doesn't only revolve around magic. An enchanter wizard might be another choice, but bards have all the class skills available,
The Guide to the Builds has this bad boy: Mercurials Kitsune Sorcerer
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That's the one I'm talking about - Mercurial (aka Story Archer) is my wife. I had no idea that made it into the Guide.You're really going to love the builds we're about to start dropping. Should replace or update many in there.
The only problem I have with some of these build suggestions is Fluff/flavor reasons.
The character I have in mind is much more likely to take the infernal bloodline strictly for character concept.
However, you have all certainly made a strong argument for me to stick with the sorcerer.
My approach: Bard.
The major balancing factor of enchantments is being observed.
With spellsong and a high performance roll, you can spam enchantment spells on someone without them (or their buddies) even knowing. Being able to charm the King of Thieves right in front of his bodyguards is the best thing ever.
It isn't 100% effective, but it sure makes things interesting. You basically get a stealth skill for casting (that you're already heavily invested in).
Of course, you will be completely starved for spell slots, but since you mention bard I'm sure you're okay with that. Just play conservatively, and combine it with some non-magical diplomancy.
My approach: Bard.
The major balancing factor of enchantments is being observed.
With spellsong and a high performance roll, you can spam enchantment spells on someone without them (or their buddies) even knowing. Being able to charm the King of Thieves right in front of his bodyguards is the best thing ever.
It isn't 100% effective, but it sure makes things interesting. You basically get a stealth skill for casting (that you're already heavily invested in).
and THAT Mr. Lincoln is what brought me about the bard to begin with, but the overall control a sorcerer can command is a strong arguement.
However, let's say that we limite thier levels to only lv 10...would all previous arguments still stand?
I guess the question becomes - do you want to be the ultimate charmer in which case I'd suggest the Bard for social skills and role-play purposes or the ultimate controller in which I'd suggest one of several Sorcerer options.
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And for what its worth, the build mentioned above includes Silent and Still spell metamagic feats, meaning the character can cast his or her Enchantments without anyone being the wiser. You'd be surprised how useful that can be.
Wiggz, good questions...I guess I should have thought that through for the title..but in the end controller is what this particular character would lean towards.
Wiggz, good questions...I guess I should have thought that through for the title..but in the end controller is what this particular character would lean towards.
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How burdened by fluff concerns are you? Some GM's are quite comfortable reflavoring anything so long as the mechanics remain sound...
The value of spellsong depends on whether or not your GM is gonna play ball.
If you have a constructive, creative GM, then you have the ultimate charmer with spellsong. The entire catalog of enchantments (and quite a few spells besides) takes on a whole new dimension when you can truly stealth-cast.
If your GM has more of a veto style, where you can only exploit things that he/she thinks were intended to exploit, then I might go sorcerer. It is easier to brute-force charm with more spell slots.
But dang, stealth-casting is fun. I play a gnome explorer in Serpent's Skull, and even despite a large number of charm-immune enemies*, I'm like a little Colonel Kurtz out there!
*this statement was deliberately not spoiler tagged. Enchanters have a right to know this going into that AP. (I'm only a player)
And for what its worth, the build mentioned above includes Silent and Still spell metamagic feats, meaning the character can cast his or her Enchantments without anyone being the wiser. You'd be surprised how useful that can be.
Get your GM's ruling on this before choosing a class.
The RAW actually doesn't exempt silent/still/eschew spells from observation. A lot of people don't know this, and many who know it don't like it.
At my table, this is the "swirling magical rune rule", after the glowing circular lorem ipsum that is shown in many Wayne Reynolds PF illustrations. You can cast silently from stealth behind cover, or you can cast still to avoid ASF or restraints, but combining the two is NOT stealth casting. (Unless your GM says it is, in which case, go to town!)
As far as I know, spellsong is the only method you can use to cast on someone in the open without being observed as such. (I'm sure greater invisibility and silent spell works pretty well too).
The RAW actually doesn't exempt silent/still/eschew spells from observation. A lot of people don't know this, and many who know it don't like it.
At my table, this is the "swirling magical rune rule", after the glowing circular lorem ipsum that is shown in many Wayne Reynolds PF illustrations. You can cast silently from stealth behind cover, or you can cast still to avoid ASF or restraints, but combining the two is NOT stealth casting. (Unless your GM says it is, in which case, go to town!)
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What happens when you cast invisibly? Wouldn't glowing runes give you away when hiding in the shadows or the underbrush?I've never seen these mandatory visual tattle-tails referenced anywhere in the rules, though we allow a great deal of latitude with our casters when it comes to personalizing visual effects - you want green fire in your fireballs? No problem. You want your Grease spells to take the form of slime or perhaps a coating of slippery ice? No problem. You DON'T want a glowing rune above your head to announce to the world that you're casting a spell that has nothing to do with glowing or runes? No problem.
Obviously different tables have at times wildly different interpretations regarding things like this and you should always be aware of your GM's views when making a character... this one in particular was built so that she could 1) be able to cast during times of durress, even if bound or paralyzed and 2) be able to cast Charm spells on people within the course of normal conversation - in fact, it was a compulsion written into the character background as a defense mechanism; she had a great deal of trouble trusting anyone not under her magical influence.
However, want to point that Arcane build h
Is better in the long run than Fey. Fey has +2 to compulsions (charm), while arcane has +2 to all enchantment school (including dominate)A couple of clarifications:
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Charms and Compulsions are two different things. Charms include the spells with 'Charm' in the title and a couple of others, but Compulsions include the vast majority of mind-affecting spells including the various Sleep, Hold and Dominate spells.The Arcane Bloodline doesn't get that bonus until 15th level which is a pretty long time to sacrifice all those bonuses. And the Fey bloodline offers a number of other nice abilities in the meantime - including at 15th level the ability to reroll ANY spell resistance roll.
Yeah, I made a mistake with Infernal Bloodline (which has a bonus to charms). In case of Fey, it's the other way around: they have +2 to dominate person, but they *don't* have +2 to charm person, because Charm isn't a compulsion
The +2 to enchantment school bonus come online at lvl 11th with the Robe of Arcane Heritage (which almost every Sorcerer should be using). Depending on the campaign that might be too much. However, Arcane Bloodline has some other goodies (like a familiar, or +1 DC to metamagic raised spells, like Persistent metamagic) that in my opinion are better than Fey's ones.
My approach: Bard.
The major balancing factor of enchantments is being observed.
With spellsong and a high performance roll, you can spam enchantment spells on someone without them (or their buddies) even knowing. Being able to charm the King of Thieves right in front of his bodyguards is the best thing ever.
It isn't 100% effective, but it sure makes things interesting. You basically get a stealth skill for casting (that you're already heavily invested in).
and THAT Mr. Lincoln is what brought me about the bard to begin with, but the overall control a sorcerer can command is a strong arguement.
However, let's say that we limite thier levels to only lv 10...would all previous arguments still stand?
I'd do a serpentine sorcerer then.
However, want to point that Arcane build h
Is better in the long run than Fey. Fey has +2 to compulsions (charm), while arcane has +2 to all enchantment school (including dominate)A couple of clarifications:
.
Charms and Compulsions are two different things. Charms include the spells with 'Charm' in the title and a couple of others, but Compulsions include the vast majority of mind-affecting spells including the various Sleep, Hold and Dominate spells.The Arcane Bloodline doesn't get that bonus until 15th level which is a pretty long time to sacrifice all those bonuses. And the Fey bloodline offers a number of other nice abilities in the meantime - including at 15th level the ability to reroll ANY spell resistance roll.
Yeah, I made a mistake with Infernal Bloodline (which has a bonus to charms)
The +2 to enchantment school bonus come online at lvl 11th with the Robe of Arcane Heritage (which almost every Sorcerer should be using). Depending on the campaign that might be too much. However, Arcane Bloodline has some other goodies (like a familiar, or +1 DC to metamagic raised spells, like Persistent metamagic) that in my opinion are better than Fey's ones.
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Actually, this build not only has a familiar, but an Improved Familiar as well. I told you, its pretty impressive.As for the Fey's abilities, I'll take sitting there with Improved Invisibility while my dominated creatures are doing the fighting for me over a +1 DC, especially when the DC's to my spells are already far higher than an Arcane Bloodline could ever hope to achieve. Also, the ability to re-roll Spell Resistance any time you like is absolutely HUGE. I like the Arcane Bloodline - I dip into it frequently using Eldritch Heritage feats when playing Bards and other kind of Sorcerers - but for this kind of character, Fey is where its at. Seriously, look at the numbers... a DC 29 Dominate Person at 12th level that affects humanoids, monstrous humanoids, animals and magical beasts? If you're looking for control, this is the best way I've found to do it.
With regards to the Sorcerer's Robe, we never include magical gear as integral parts of our builds. We play in a low magic environment and specific types of magical gear are far from guaranteed.
As for the Fey's abilities, I'll take sitting there with Improved Invisibility while my dominated creatures are doing the fighting for me over a +1 DC, especially when the DC's to my spells are already far higher than an Arcane Bloodline could ever hope to achieve. Also, the ability to re-roll Spell Resistance any time you like is absolutely HUGE. I like the Arcane Bloodline - I dip into it frequently using Eldritch Heritage feats when playing Bards and other kind of Sorcerers - but for this kind of character, Fey is where its at. Seriously, look at the numbers... a DC 29 Dominate Person at 12th level that affects humanoids,...
The arcane build at level 12 could have a DC 30 dominate, assuming it's also a Kitsune with favored class bonus. The same bonus from feats, class and favored class, swap +2 to compulsion to +2 to Enchantment school (with the Robe), and +1 from the metamagic ability of Arcane.
With regards to the Sorcerer's Robe, we never include magical gear as integral parts of our builds. We play in a low magic environment and specific types of magical gear are far from guaranteed
That's fine, but might not be the case for the OP. By RAW, in Golarion (which is not a low magic enviroment by default), you just have to take a feat (craft wondreous item) to have your guaranteed Robe at lvl 11th.
Your build surpass the Arcane one at 17th, because you get the arcane ability with eldritch heritage, so I guess it depends how far you plan to play.Fey abilities are nice, but the Fey Bloodlike spells aren't very good imho: poison, tree stride or phase door are worst than the arcane version in those levels: Overland Flight, Greater Teleport or Dimension Door. Also, you have your level in rounds per day of free Greater invisibility as a bloodline feature at 9th level, while Arcane get an extra 4th level spell. Which could be... dunno... ¿Greater invisibility? Which gives you several times your level per day in greater invisibility. You also get another 6th level spell at 13th, and another 8th level spell at 17th. That's way better than 17 rounds of greater invisibility in my opinion.
Fey has advantage in compulsion DC from level 1 to 11, which isn't shabby. Arcane has better spells, better features, and advantage from 11+ levels.
The stealth-casting thing is an excellent point, particularly for casting in social situations. Take Sow Thought. That is probably the most insidious spell in the entire enchantment school.
I mean, holy cow, it lets you insert thoughts into another person's head, permanently.
Interrogating somebody? Suddenly the subject finds himself thinking "Maybe if I tell them what they want to know, they'll let me keep my skin."
Trying to sow chaos amongst your enemies? Make the lieutenant think "You know, if Boss doesn't make it back from a fight, I'll be in charge."
Trying to undermine the social order of an entire kingdom? Make the heir to the throne think "Dad doesn't really want me to inherit - he favors my younger sister" while simultaneously making the father think "My heir isn't turning out so great, maybe his younger sister would be better."
Not big or showy, but a few carefully crafted thoughts planted in the right minds can have absolutely massive effects over time.
But only if they remain unaware that the thought was planted.
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I agree completely with this. It is a HUGE part of an enchanter's arsenal and anyone would be making a mistake not to at least try to include it in whatever version of the character they attmpt to run.My only point is that Silent and Stilled spells should be at the top of this stealth food chain. Yes, you can try to convince others that your gestures aren't really spellcasting - or you can NOT have gestures to begin with. You can try to cloak your words of magic in words of music - or you can NOT have words of magic. Seems pretty cut and dried to me. Meanwhile, Spellsong still requires you to be out front and face-to-face with your targets... some circumstances just don't favor that - like in combat, and I've never seen anyone sing or dance their way out of paralysis, a Silence spell or binding chains.
One thought on this I had worked on was to make a Mystic Thuerge Enchanter since you only need 3 levels to access the class.