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So... Kitsune Sorcerer (Fey Bloodline)


Advice


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Pretty impressive.

I wanted to make the best 'Enchantress' I could and I was steered in this direction - we don't normally use such exotic races so I'd have to petition my GM but...

+1 DC on Enchantment spells from Kitsune
+1/4 DC on Enchantments per level from Kitsune Sorcerer favored class option
+2 DC from Spell Focus feats
+2 DC to Compulsion spells (which most of the good Enchantments requiring a save are) from Bloodline

That really starts to add up. At 12th level that's +6 DC to Enchantments, +8 DC with Compulsions, and we all know that Will saves aren't the strongest suit for most creatures.

I was curious about feat recommendations. Right now this is what I know I'll be taking:

1st Combat Casting
3rd Spell Focus: Enchantment
5th Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
7th --
7th Improved Initiative (Bloodline feat)
9th Silent Spell
11th --
13th --
13th Lightning Reflexes (Bloodline feat)
15th --
17th --
19th --
19th Quicken Spell (Bloodline feat)

9th level is the same level that I get Fleeting Glance, the Bloodline ability to be able to turn Invisible for a number of rounds per level, so I figured Silent Spell would be a nice compliment for that. All of the other selections are pretty much obvious but I'm not sure what to do with the rest of the slots. Is there an Enchantment spell out there that I should work towards for Spell Perfection, or a feat line I haven't considered? Should I perhaps be branching out into illusions as well? I plan on taking Color Spray and Minor Image as early spells regardless... Any advice would be appreciated.


Yar.

What sources are allowed?

You could really beef up your enchanting spell power with things like Spell Specialization (+2 to you caster level) to make them all last longer.

Spell Penetration (and greater Spell Penetration) to be better at charming creatures with Spell Resistance (many compulsions also grant SR).

Varisian Tattoo: Enchantments for an extra +1 to caster level for longer charms (plus the spell Daze as a spell-like ability 3/day).

The Heighten Metamagic feat so that you an use lower level enchantments in higher level spell slots and gain the increased save DC.

Bouncing Spell Metamagic for single target charms that don't work (either via SR or a save, sending the charm to another creature nearby instead)

Extend Spell Metamagic (even longer charms)

You may also want to consider maker her a more well rounded Enchantress my maxing out you non-magic influence/enchantress skills: Bluff and Diplomacy.

Persuasive for a +2/+4 bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate.

Deceitful for a +2/+4 bonus to Bluff and Disguise.

Skill Focus: Diplomacy for a +3/+6 bonus to Diplomacy (stacks with Persuasive)

Skill Focus: Bluff for a +3/+6 bonus to Bluff (stacks with Deceitful)

~P


Persistent Spell is a beast of a metamagic for when you absolutely have to land that spell.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber Subscriber
Pirate wrote:

Yar.

What sources are allowed?

You could really beef up your enchanting spell power with things like Spell Specialization (+2 to you caster level) to make them all last longer.

Spell Penetration (and greater Spell Penetration) to be better at charming creatures with Spell Resistance (many compulsions also grant SR).

Varisian Tattoo: Enchantments for an extra +1 to caster level for longer charms (plus the spell Daze as a spell-like ability 3/day).

The Heighten Metamagic feat so that you an use lower level enchantments in higher level spell slots and gain the increased save DC.

Bouncing Spell Metamagic for single target charms that don't work (either via SR or a save, sending the charm to another creature nearby instead)

Extend Spell Metamagic (even longer charms)

You may also want to consider maker her a more well rounded Enchantress my maxing out you non-magic influence/enchantress skills: Bluff and Diplomacy.

Persuasive for a +2/+4 bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate.

Deceitful for a +2/+4 bonus to Bluff and Disguise.

Skill Focus: Diplomacy for a +3/+6 bonus to Diplomacy (stacks with Persuasive)

Skill Focus: Bluff for a +3/+6 bonus to Bluff (stacks with Deceitful)

~P

Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration for certain.

I'm a little worried about getting diminishing returns by over-emphasizing my Enchantment DC bonuses to the exclusion of all else.

At the moment, after going back and forth a little, I'm kind of leaning this way for feat selection:

1st - Combat Casting
3rd - Spell Focus: Illusion
5th - Greater Spell Focus: Illusion
7th - Spell Focus: Enchantment
7th - Improved Initiative (Bloodline feat)
9th - Silent Spell
11th - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
13th - Spell Penetration
13th - Lightning Reflexes (Bloodline feat)
15th - Greater Spell Penetration
17th - Persistent Spell
19th - Extend Spell
19th - Quicken Spell (Bloodline feat)

Perhaps instead of Extend Spell I'll go Spell Perfection: Dominate Monster? That'll be so late in the build that I doubt I'll ever actually get to use it, but talk about a potent option...


Have you looked at the geisha bard archetype form Dragon Empires. You get some of the same feats for free.


Shalafi2412 wrote:
Have you looked at the geisha bard archetype form Dragon Empires. You get some of the same feats for free.

It's not free if you have to multiclass out of your caster class to get it.


Shalafi2412 wrote:
Have you looked at the geisha bard archetype form Dragon Empires. You get some of the same feats for free.

Ran/running a Lotus Geisha in Skull and Shackles and really enjoyed her. I'm trying to do something a little different with this character.


Yar.

I forgot about Persistent Spell. *nods to Benly*

There is also Voice of the Sybil, which gives another stackable +1/+3 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Perform: Oratory.

Going illusion/enchanting combo now? Interesting. (I'm actually making something similar for an online game elsewhere right now, so I approve - though mine will be a bit more focused on Illusion than Enchanting, a little bit darker in theme and style as well, maybe with some shadow stuff thrown in *still pondering my build*) ^_^

In the end though, it's your character, your build. Good luck! :D

~P


Pirate wrote:

Yar.

I forgot about Persistent Spell. *nods to Benly*

There is also Voice of the Sybil, which gives another stackable +1/+3 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Perform: Oratory.

Going illusion/enchanting combo now? Interesting. (I'm actually making something similar for an online game elsewhere right now, so I approve - though mine will be a bit more focused on Illusion than Enchanting, a little bit darker in theme and style as well, maybe with some shadow stuff thrown in *still pondering my build*) ^_^

In the end though, it's your character, your build. Good luck! :D

~P

Just splashing some Illusion - I've found a little goes a long way - the character is still definitely enchantment focused. I still can't get over how high those DC's get...


I would probably put SF: Enchantment before SF: Illusion. A lot of the more useful low-level illusions either don't have saving throws at all (invisibility, mirror image, blur) or only have saving throws if someone interacts with it (silent image and its upgrades), while pretty much anything you'd want to do with enchantment will involve a saving throw.


Is there any way you can cram in skill focus: Knowledge (anything), Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) [you get a familiar], Improved Eldritch Heritage (Add a few spells to your repertoire OR no Full round action to cast a few spells/day) into Greater Eldritch Heritage for an additional +2 to saves from the enchantment school?


If you are going all the way to level 20 then you want Spell Perfection at level 15. This will allow you a free metamagic effect on one spell every round as long as the modified level is no greater than 9. Combine it with the Magical Lineage trait for even more silliness if you are willing to effectively lose access to one trait for 10 or 12 levels.

Quickened Persistent Charm Monster for a level 5 spell slot
Quickened Dominate Person for a level 5 spell slot
Quickened Mass Suggestion for a level 6 spell slot

At level 15 you probably have 7 or so level 5 and 6 spell slots you you can keep going with quickened spells all day long pretty much. As a bonus it will also double your feat bonuses to DC and Caster Level making your spells nearly irresistable.

Frankly the feat is broken as all hell although it can turn you into a bit of a one trick pony. Watch out for Clerics with Greater Spell Immunity. There is a reason Metamagic Rods are so expensive and this one feat turns that on its head. Frankly I woul feel like I was cheating by using it but if it's available in your game you have very little reason not to.

For Bloodlines I would consider going Arcane instead. It doesnt have the same flavour but its Bloodline spells are far better as are its powers. You have to wait until level 11 for the extra +2 DC (with a Robe of Arcane Heritage) but it will apply to all Enchantment spells. A familiar will give you an extra +4 Initiative which is pretty crucial for any sort of controller and the Arcana adds an extra +1 to your spell DC's when you metamagic. Being able to ignore the extra casting time also helps you get out of tricky situations.

Finally I would consider fitting in Create Wondrous Item somewhere. Most of the equipment you will want is somewhere in this category and it will save you a ton of cash.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Alright, I've pretty much settled on the build - it looks a good bit different than before, thanks in part to advice offered on this thread. I've decided against pursuing Spell Perfection after all, and I don't think I'll miss it.

Here is the character build:

Kitsune Sorcerer (Fey Bloodline)
Kitsune favored class option, Fast Shifter

Attributes: 15 point build, racial adjustments included
STR - 8
DEX - 14
CON - 10
INT - 12
WIS - 8
CHA - 19 (+1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level)

Traits:
Reactionary
Focused Mind

Feats:
1st - Spell Focus: Enchantment
3rd - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5th - Skill Focus: Nature
7th - Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline: Bonded Item)
7th - Improved Initiative*
9th - Spell Penetration
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline: New Arcana)
13th - Persistent Spell
13th - Quicken Spell*
15th - Greater Spell Penetration
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline: Spell Power Enchantment)
19th - Iron Will
19th - Lightning Reflexes*

The character should get the following bonuses to Enchantment spells:
+1 DC at 1st level from her racial bonus
+1 DC at 1st and 3rd from Spell Focus feats
+2 DC vs. Compulsion spells at 1st level effects from Fey Bloodline
+1 DC at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th levels as favored class bonus
+2 DC at 17th level from Greater Eldritch Heritage

The end result has me casting a DC 24 Hold Person spell at 6th level, a DC 29 Dominate Person spell at 12th level and a DC 36 Dominate Monster spell at 17th level... without taking any magical equipment into consideration.

I'm pretty happy with that. The character is going to have to take some buff spells (Haste, Heroism, Greater Heroism) as well as load up on the UMD skill so that she'll still be effective when facing undead and other creatures immune to mind-affecting spells, but even with that weakness she should make a nice teammate for the upcoming Rise of the Runelords campaign we're going to be running.

Giants count as humanoids :)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

So... Your GM is going to pretty much have to throw undead, elementals and constructs at you then? Lol.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
So... Your GM is going to pretty much have to throw undead, elementals and constructs at you then? Lol.

Just elementals and constructs; the Thanatonic Spell metamagic feat was specifically designed for use against GMs who like to use undead to thwart enchanters. :)


Alexander Augunas wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
So... Your GM is going to pretty much have to throw undead, elementals and constructs at you then? Lol.
Just elementals and constructs; the Thanatonic Spell metamagic feat was specifically designed for use against GMs who like to use undead to thwart enchanters. :)

Hm. I'm not sure it works like that.

Thanatopic Spell
A thanatopic spell pierces defenses and immunities that protect against death effects, negative levels, and energy drain, affecting the target as if the protective barrier did not exist.

It doesn't seem to address the immunity against mind-affecting spells.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
So... Your GM is going to pretty much have to throw undead, elementals and constructs at you then? Lol.

Hopefully that's where the rest of the party will come in... or perhaps one of my 'loyal' minions.

:-P


Yar.

Alexander Augunas wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
So... Your GM is going to pretty much have to throw undead, elementals and constructs at you then? Lol.
Just elementals and constructs; the Thanatonic Spell metamagic feat was specifically designed for use against GMs who like to use undead to thwart enchanters. :)

You're thinking Threnodic Spell.

SRD entry

Also: hurray for the party dynamic! (and casters who understand the need to work with your party/have a party)! :D

~P


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber Subscriber
Pirate wrote:

Yar.

Alexander Augunas wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
So... Your GM is going to pretty much have to throw undead, elementals and constructs at you then? Lol.
Just elementals and constructs; the Thanatonic Spell metamagic feat was specifically designed for use against GMs who like to use undead to thwart enchanters. :)

You're thinking Threnodic Spell.

SRD entry

Also: hurray for the party dynamic! :D

~P

Wow - okay, I'm seriously going to have to see if I can figure out a way to work that in. Doesn't seem likely though... which is fine. I don't mind the occasional Achilles Heel.

And yeah, I figure in some fights I'll turn a potential TPK into a cake-walk, but in others I'll have to take a definite step back and just support the others... and then of course there are the role-playing aspects of such a character to enjoy as well.


Yar.

The tough part about Threnodic and Thanatonic, is they have Spell Focus (Necromancy) as a prereq. (And the skill requirements, but that is a useful skill for anyone to have, imo).

Looking at your build so far, the most likely way would be to switch out Skill Focus (Nature) for Spell Focus (Necromancy), then switch out any of the later, less vital to the flavor of the character feats for Threnodic Spell. From a "build" perspective, possibly: 19: Iron Will, and shift things around so you can benefit from it sooner.

Just some random thoughts though. ^_^

~P


Very nice~


If you are determined to stick with the Eldritch Heritage route rather than Spell Perfection then consider delaying Improved Eldrritch Heritage.

The New Arcana bloodline power gives you an additional spell of a level you are able to cast each time it applies. If you pick it up later then you will be able to choose higher level spells.

Note that as Improved Eldritch Arcana says you treat your Sorcerer levels as 2 lower so when you take the feat at level 11 you will only count as level 9 only allowing a level 4 spell (and subsequently 5 and 6 at levels 13 and 17). If you delay taking the feat until level 15 you get an extra 6, 7 and 8 spell eventually.

Personally I would grab Persistent at level 9 and Quicken at 11. Persistent will make your hard to resist enchantments almost never fail as well as allowing lower level stuff like Slow, Stinking Cloud or Glitterdust remain relevant for longer. Quicken at level 11 means you are 1 level away from Quickened Mirror Image but even something like Quickened Shield can be a life saver.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Pawns Subscriber
andreww wrote:

If you are going all the way to level 20 then you want Spell Perfection at level 15. This will allow you a free metamagic effect on one spell every round as long as the modified level is no greater than 9. Combine it with the Magical Lineage trait for even more silliness if you are willing to effectively lose access to one trait for 10 or 12 levels.

Quickened Persistent Charm Monster for a level 5 spell slot
Quickened Dominate Person for a level 5 spell slot
Quickened Mass Suggestion for a level 6 spell slot

At level 15 you probably have 7 or so level 5 and 6 spell slots you you can keep going with quickened spells all day long pretty much. As a bonus it will also double your feat bonuses to DC and Caster Level making your spells nearly irresistable.

That doesn't work, as far as I can tell. Quicken is +4, so a 6th level spell is 10th level modified, and thus too high to work with Spell Perfection, which limits you to 9th level. It only makes one metamagic feat free per casting, so Charm Monster (4) + Persistent Spell (+2) is too high to be quickened. And it only works for one spell at all; it's definitely one trick. I'm not seeing it as "broken as all hell".


prosfilaes wrote:
That doesn't work, as far as I can tell. Quicken is +4, so a 6th level spell is 10th level modified, and thus too high to work with Spell Perfection, which limits you to 9th level. It only makes one metamagic feat free per casting, so Charm Monster (4) + Persistent Spell (+2) is too high to be quickened. And it only works for one spell at all; it's definitely one trick. I'm not seeing it as "broken as all hell".

Magical Lineage is a trait which reduces the level by 1 making it legal for Spell Perfection.

If you dont see the problem with throwing a free action level 5 or 6 nearly unbeatable DC spell which punches through SR every round then I dont know what to say.


I have been working on a similar build, only instead of Fey to get extra EXTRA high DC's, I went with Serpentine and a very heavy focus on the Dominate Person spell (which applies to animals/magical beasts/monstrous humanoids thanks to the bloodline arcana)
By level 12 with Magical Lineage - Dominate Person I can do a DC 29 Persistent Dominate Person that affects all those different types as a 6th level spell...
Good times.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber Subscriber
Pirate wrote:

Yar.

The tough part about Threnodic and Thanatonic, is they have Spell Focus (Necromancy) as a prereq. (And the skill requirements, but that is a useful skill for anyone to have, imo).

Looking at your build so far, the most likely way would be to switch out Skill Focus (Nature) for Spell Focus (Necromancy), then switch out any of the later, less vital to the flavor of the character feats for Threnodic Spell. From a "build" perspective, possibly: 19: Iron Will, and shift things around so you can benefit from it sooner.

Just some random thoughts though. ^_^

~P

Can't - the Skill Focus: Nature is pre-requisite to the entire Eldritch heritage line.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber Subscriber
andreww wrote:

If you are determined to stick with the Eldritch Heritage route rather than Spell Perfection then consider delaying Improved Eldrritch Heritage.

The New Arcana bloodline power gives you an additional spell of a level you are able to cast each time it applies. If you pick it up later then you will be able to choose higher level spells.

Note that as Improved Eldritch Arcana says you treat your Sorcerer levels as 2 lower so when you take the feat at level 11 you will only count as level 9 only allowing a level 4 spell (and subsequently 5 and 6 at levels 13 and 17). If you delay taking the feat until level 15 you get an extra 6, 7 and 8 spell eventually.

I don't think that's the way New Arcana works...

New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.

Since your Sorcerer level for that bloodline is considered your level -2 until you take Greater Eldritch Heritage, I get to add a spell at 11th level, at 15th level and at 17th level no matter when I take the feats


Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Wiggz wrote:
Wow - okay, I'm seriously going to have to see if I can figure out a way to work that in. Doesn't seem likely though... which is fine. I don't mind the occasional Achilles Heel.

You could always get a metamagic rod if you don't have room for the feats.


Yar!

Wiggz wrote:
Pirate wrote:

Yar.

The tough part about Threnodic and Thanatonic, is they have Spell Focus (Necromancy) as a prereq. (And the skill requirements, but that is a useful skill for anyone to have, imo).

Looking at your build so far, the most likely way would be to switch out Skill Focus (Nature) for Spell Focus (Necromancy), then switch out any of the later, less vital to the flavor of the character feats for Threnodic Spell. From a "build" perspective, possibly: 19: Iron Will, and shift things around so you can benefit from it sooner.

Just some random thoughts though. ^_^

~P

Can't - the Skill Focus: Nature is pre-requisite to the entire Eldritch heritage line.

I totally forgot about that!

*wafts away the brain-fart*

^_^;;

~P


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber Subscriber
Interzone wrote:

I have been working on a similar build, only instead of Fey to get extra EXTRA high DC's, I went with Serpentine and a very heavy focus on the Dominate Person spell (which applies to animals/magical beasts/monstrous humanoids thanks to the bloodline arcana)

By level 12 with Magical Lineage - Dominate Person I can do a DC 29 Persistent Dominate Person that affects all those different types as a 6th level spell...
Good times.

The Serpentine bloodline definitely looks interesting.

Can you tell me how you got to DC 29 at 12th level? I can't seem to make the numbers add up.


I have a similar build, but I went dirge bard for two levels to make undead susceptible to my spells. I also wanted the skill points and hit points at level 1. also took geisha which gave me spell focus for free

Liberty's Edge

Awesome find!! Great build, I hope you don't mind if I take some inspiration from it =) only issue I saw though, was with the Fast Shifter racial option. If you took that, you would lose your Kitsune Magic trait, which is what gives you your +1 DC to enchantment. Not sure if you noticed it by the time you started playing, but at this point, I highly doubt it matters much, hehe >.< Again good work on that =) Hope it was at least HALF as fun playing as it looks, cause it looks like it would have been amazing =)


Let us see if my raise dead spell works on this thread.

I love the build, and may flatter it in the most sincere way, ie imitate it, soon.

I do have one possible improvement. That is to take the False Priest Archetype. You give up some stuff, some of it good, but what you get is better. The real carrot is this:_

"False Channel (Su)

At 9th level, the false priest can use his own magic to power spell completion and spell trigger items that use divine spells. He expends a sorcerer spell slot that is at least 1 level higher than the level of the spell he’s trying to activate, then makes a Use Magic Device check. If he succeeds, the item’s spell occurs and the item or charge is not expended. If he fails, nothing happens. Whether he succeeds or fail, his spell slot is expended.
This ability replaces the bloodline power gained at 9th level."

Once you get to level 9 you can use cleric spells, if you have the scroll, which are dirt cheap, and can make a UMD roll, by using up a spell slot one level higher.

That is great anyway. But for this build, which is very specialised, suddenly at level 9 you gain wondrous versatility, it is even better.


Why not use a cool race?


I think Kitsune are cool, but that is a subjective thing.

What is objective is the Kitsune favoured class bonus for sorcerer, which gives +1 to DC of saves vs enchantment spells and has been called the best favoured class bonus in the game. Add that to the +1 DC kitsune get to enchantments as a racial bonus and you are well on the way to a peerless enchanter.

So, in a word, power.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Kitsune are a cool race!

One thing I think this build needs, that was added after the initial posts, is Conceal Spell, from Ultimate Intrigue. Casting powerful mind altering magic is one thing. Casting it while appearing completely innocent is a whole new game.


I agree totally.

Especially if NPCs react the way my characters do to when people [well, beings] start casting spells for no good reason, which is assume the reason is bad and interrupt the process by some such expedient as cutting their head off.

Another thing I came across, the 3rd party Vampiric Bloodline has the same bloodline arcana as the Fey, but seems to be better in other respects, so if this is available...


I'm reminded of my fey-bloodline bloodrager. Would tell people not to worry, their thoughts were all their own. Shortly before scaring the **** out of them with a greatsword. Good times.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Having played a Gnome Mesmerist/Sorcerer for a few sessions now, I can highly recommend going Cross-Blooded to pick up the Serpent Bloodline as well. You might consider Impossible instead of Serpent. Treating Animals, Magical Beasts, and Monstrous Humanoids as Humanoids who speak your language opens up a lot of enchantment options.


The undead bloodline likewise allows you to enchant more things.

There are several good ways of doing this build.

Archetype-

None as per Mercurial's build.

False Priest- my idea

Cross Blooded

Bloodlines-

Fey as per Mercurial's build.

Serpent

Impossible

Undead

Vampiric if allowed

You can't do all of them or anything like.

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