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As a caster advances in levels, so to does their familiar:
Familiar Basics pg 82 PHB:
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.
Per Bestiary pg 295:
creatures whose Hit Dice increase by 50% or more should also increase in size
My question:
does this mean that the familiar should also increase in size category?
as size increase is an effect based on number of HD.
I think you could rule this either way, but most people tend to see it this way:
Monster "advancement" means that the monster is unusually big and tough. This means that as you make it tougher (more HD) it also becomes bigger. But a familiar is magically tough - it doesn't gain extra HD by using normal rules of "monster advancement", but rather, through its magical link with a spellcaster. Therefore, it is not just big and tough. Instead, it is little and magical.
At least, that's how I've always seen it. However, I cannot point to any RAW that says it must work this way.
That bestiary entry is for advancing monsters.
PCs (and their companions/familiars) have their own rules for advancement.
A familiar would not increase in size.
Also the familiar entry calls out effects. This refers to spells, abilities, etc.
If it was really treated as having more hit dice, it would also get more feats from having more hit dice. But you can easily look at the stats for the iconics (the one for the witch found in this link serves well for our purposes) and you can see that the familairs do not get any new feats as the caster levels. You can also see that the familiar did not increase in size.
So from this, you can see that the familiar does not really gain any hit dice, but are simply treated like the do for things like whether spells like color spray wreck their day.
Well, it is important to note that a druids animal companion does gain a size increase at a specific level (4th or 7th depending on the creature) and then never gets bigger again.
Since that size increase is very specifically called out, and is not attached in any way to a 50% increase in hit dice (they all start at 2 HD and small companions become medium at 4 (100% more) HD while medium companions become large at 6 HD (200% more).
One can pretty easily infer that the rules for increasing a monster's size in the beastiary are 1) just a guideline and 2) only apply in some circumstances. For instance, if I add a bunch of fighter class levels to a skeleton, increasing its HD by 50% or more... it wouldn't suddenly be bigger right? And the CR would still be appropriate at its new level.
The issue is that adding racial HD to something like an animal doesn't really do much except keep it alive longer. The effects of racial HD are pretty weak, so it is a good suggestion if you are advancing an animal or monster that relies on natural attacks and the like, that you also increase its size to keep it relevant at its new CR.
Similarly, a monster that takes class levels would not normally change in size increase. For that matter, the size increase rules are for GMs making new or tougher monsters, not for typical player mechanics. Otherwise, they'd have included size advancement rules for familiars the way they did for animal companions.
so, if I took imp familiar, chose Homunculus, and paid for the additional HD - it would gain size, feats, and skills due to this increase?
Construction
A homunculus with more than 2 Hit Dice can be created, but each additional Hit Die adds +2,000 gp to the cost to create.
No... it would still follow the exact same progression chart that a familiar follows as stated in the feat for improved familiar.
The rule that you are talking about comes from the section in the beastiary on advancing monsters under the heading of adding racial HD. It states that "as a general rule, creatures whose Hit Dice increase by 50% or more should also increase in size, but GMs should feel free to ignore this rule"
This is not some gamist rule that is supposed to apply to bonded mounts, familiars, PC made constructs, animal companions or anything else. These are rules FOR THE GM to POSSIBLY increase the size of a monster that he or she is advancing by adding racial hit dice to. At no point are you going to convince anyone that if someone casts Summon Nature's Ally to summon a 4HD animal that when a Bard uses Inspire Greatness to give it 2 more HD that it suddenly grows a size category larger.
Additionally, you can attempt to create a Homunculus to use with Imp. Familiar, but even if you spend additional gold to increase its HD, it will still only ever have the Hit Dice listed under the familiar progression chart because that chart supersedes the creatures base statistics, again as explained in the feat.
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This is not some gamist rule that is supposed to apply to bonded mounts, familiars, PC made constructs, animal companions or anything else. These are rules FOR THE GM to POSSIBLY increase the size of a monster that he or she is advancing by adding racial hit dice to. At no point are you going to convince anyone that if someone casts Summon Nature's Ally to summon a 4HD animal that when a Bard uses Inspire Greatness to give it 2 more HD that it suddenly grows a size category larger.Additionally, you can attempt to create a Homunculus to use with Imp. Familiar, but even if you spend additional gold to increase its HD, it will still only ever have the Hit Dice listed under the familiar progression chart because that chart supersedes the creatures base statistics, again as explained in the feat.
um, no where in my question did I say I would cast spells to increase or augment the familiar and then try to change its base abilities.
my question was based on the size increase rule, and then later on about an improved familiar.with your reasoning, any familiar you take from the improved familiar list, would then lose all its feats and skills.
but it doesn't work that way, an improved familiar doesn't lose its intelligence, it doesn't lose feats.
its not like an Imp loses its two feats and skills, or has its Intelligence dropped from 13 down to 7.
so, why would a 10hd constructed homunculus be any different?
This is not some gamist rule that is supposed to apply to bonded mounts, familiars, PC made constructs, animal companions or anything else. These are rules FOR THE GM to POSSIBLY increase the size of a monster that he or she is advancing by adding racial hit dice to. At no point are you going to convince anyone that if someone casts Summon Nature's Ally to summon a 4HD animal that when a Bard uses Inspire Greatness to give it 2 more HD that it suddenly grows a size category larger.Additionally, you can attempt to create a Homunculus to use with Imp. Familiar, but even if you spend additional gold to increase its HD, it will still only ever have the Hit Dice listed under the familiar progression chart because that chart supersedes the creatures base statistics, again as explained in the feat.
um, no where in my question did I say I would cast spells to increase or augment the familiar and then try to change its base abilities.
my question was based on the size increase rule, and then later on about an improved familiar.with your reasoning, any familiar you take from the improved familiar list, would then lose all its feats and skills.
but it doesn't work that way, an improved familiar doesn't lose its intelligence, it doesn't lose feats.its not like an Imp loses its two feats and skills, or has its Intelligence dropped from 13 down to 7.
so, why would a 10hd constructed homunculus be any different?
From Imp. Familiar: Improved familiars use the rules for regular familiars.
From Familiars: only a normal unmodified animal can become a familiar.
From Familiars: Total Hit Dice: A familiar has half the masters total Hit points regardless of its actual HD
Intelligence of a familiar is overridden by the intelligence score listed under the familiar advancement table and is attached directly to the Master's class level. So yes, an improved familiar can have a lower Intelligence than the base monster.
Note that at no point did I say that a familiar suddenly loses racial features, feats, skills, spell-like abilities or anything like that. But the fact remains that you can only use an unmodified version of a base creature. I brought up an example of increasing a creatures Hit Dice by 50% wherein it does not increase in size, since that rule is completely unrelated to anything but a monster that a GM is modifying by adding racial HD to.
Why in the world you would even WANT to try to increase the HD of a homunculus is beyond me. It has zero effect on the familiars actual hitpoints and you would have to spend at least 12000gp to get the Homunculus up to 8 HD before you could see any effect. That effect would be increasing the familiars HD for the purpose of spells and effects ONLY. You have to be level 7 before you can take a Homunculus as an Improved Familiar, and familiars use their Master's HD for related effects (or the familiars HD if higher).
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let me try a different approach, as this isn't a normal unmodified animal. A Homunculi is something that needs to be created, regardless of it being a familiar or not.
Base value of 2,050gp +4,000/ additional HD - market value
in this instance, I want it to have 8 HD - 26,050gp
Using corebook rules only, what are it's stats as a newly created construct?
It is exactly what is printed in the core book plus more HD.
Tiny construct
Darkvision 60ft, Low-Light Vision
Construct Traits
and so on
Nothing except its HD change. HOWEVER, with increased HD, the DC for its poison does rise. An 8 HD homunculus would have a poison DC of 16 (HD/2 + Con Mod (nothing since its a construct) + Racial Bonus (+2))
If you are again asking if a homunculus with 8HD should necessarily be larger, I am sorry but that isn't at play. A homunculus can be created with more HD, but this does not mean that it is advancing in the same way that a GM would rebuild a monster by adding Racial Hit Dice. These are the rules as they are presented in the Core Rulebook.
However... if you are allowed to use the optional rules for creating a construct in Ultimate Magic... well that is a different story. Again, this type of Homunculus can't ever be a familiar, since it is modified.... but there you can add HD which also increase base attacks and saves... but this is a totally different set of rules. One which, consequently, stipulates that you can never increase a constructs HD by more than 50% to avoid having to deal with the size issue altogether.
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My question is regarding what the full stats of the Homunculus would be, nothing more
to my understanding, at 8 HD, it would have:
8d10 hitpoints
8 BAB
+2 Fort, +2 Will, +2 Reflex
16+ (int mod*8) skill points
4 Feats
2 Stat bumps
correct?
following that, as stated in the Homunculus description that additional HD is an option upon creation, and under the rules for Imp Familiar - that a Homunculus would need to be created.
I could then take this 8HD homunculus as my familiar
Not as I read the rules, no.
Under the homunculus description, it states that you can add HD fr an increased crafting cost.... but nowhere does it say that adding HD necessarily affects anything other than its HD.
The section in the Beastiary about adding racial hit dice is meant to be used by GMs who want to advance a creature or rebuild one to raise its CR.
If you are the GM and want to do this... no problem... go ahead and do it. Use the regular rules for adding racial hit dice. As a player crafting a homuculus... I would suggest using the new Construct Rules from Ultimate Magic.
However, if you insist I can give you the rebuild:
first you have to calculate Avg HP per HD... for a homunculus, this would be 5.5 (d10 HD). Then multiply by the 6 increased HD to get 33. This gets used later.
Then you need the CR of the Homunculus (1) to get its new CR based on its hit point increase. The closest to a 33 HP change is 25 at CR 4. So we have our CR.
6 HD is more than a 50% increase so lets increase size as well. That means it becomes small and gets +4 str -2 Dex.
Other changes are listed by CR, so changing from 1 to 4 gives an attack bonus adjustment of 6-7, a damage change of 6-9 and an AC change of 5
Now, the size does change, so that is meant to be factored in to the changes listed above. Saves are all bad so every 3rd HD gets a +1 to each. So +2 to each save.
The Homunculus gains a feat at 3, 5 and 7 HD, so three feats
The homunculus gets 2+int skills per HD, so 12 + intmod*6
So the base stats are now:
Str:12
Dex:13
Con:-
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:7
AC: +1 Dex, +1 Size, +5 Natural Armor = 17 (12 touch)
HP: 44
Fort: +2 Ref: +5 Will: +3
Speed: (oddly remains the same, though note the -2 to fly checks for size change)
(this next bit is touchy... we have to meet the expected 6-9 damage change, so this is my presented solution to add claws)
Melee: 1 bite +10 (1d6+1 plus poison) 2 claws +10 (1d3+1)
Space:5ft
Reach:5ft
Feats: Lightning Reflexes + three new feats
Skills:already discussed, but fly gets a -2 from size -1 from dex, etc.. everything gets adjusted.
BAB:+8
Poison DC:16 (10+1/2hd+con)
Of course there are still the 2 stat bumps needed...but yeah. It may seem like you can just look at the creature types to add hit dice, but you really cant. You need to account for increases to AC, attack bonuses, and damage. This is why the rebuild rules exist.
My question is regarding what the full stats of the Homunculus would be, nothing more
to my understanding, at 8 HD, it would have:
8d10 hitpoints
8 BAB
+2 Fort, +2 Will, +2 Reflex
16+ (int mod*8) skill points
4 Feats
2 Stat bumpscorrect?
following that, as stated in the Homunculus description that additional HD is an option upon creation, and under the rules for Imp Familiar - that a Homunculus would need to be created.
I could then take this 8HD homunculus as my familiar
If you can convince an unwitting GM that a creature with stats that do not appear anywhere in the the beastiary as a basic monster is an unmodified creature... then yeah, go for it. Or are you confused about what modified means? Because its pretty simple.. it means different from the beastiary entry whether that is because of added HD, adding a template, giving class levels or whatever other method.
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now you have confused me.
regardless of progression, isn't the idea of adding additional HD to Homunculus modifying the base creature?
so any homunculus that has more than 2hd, can not be a familiar?
and then you're also trying to say, that if I create one with additional HD, it doesn't gain any of the normal benefits of increased HD - such as BAB, Saves, Feats, skills - but only more hit points??
What I am saying is that there really are no rules for adding Hit Dice to creatures without going through the process of a rebuild, which involves AC bonuses, Damage changes etc... and is more complicated that just adding from the list you see in the Creature Types section. RAW agrees with me here.
What would you say is the CR of your new Homunculus there without using the rebuild rules? Is it the same? Is it higher?
If you extrapolate this out, then you would have to surmise that you could either have a high CR creature with a 1d4-1 damage bite as its only attack and a 14 AC (but 15HD), or a low CR creature with 15HD.
Either way doesn't work, and everyone who thinks that you just add hitpoints/BAB/saves/skills/feats/statbumps is ignoring HALF of the rules for adding racial hit dice.