Goblin Squad Member
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Posting this here by popular demand. :D
What's the idea here?
The idea is that when out harvesting resources in the world players can harvest normally, or they can clear-cut/strip-mine etc. the nodes they are gathering from.
Normal harvesting would be assumed to be at least moderately sustainable / non-destructive practices. Clear-cutting / strip mining would basically be ravaging the environment to get extra resources.
The advantage of clear-cutting / strip mining would be that they are faster. The disadvantages is that it really increases the respawn time of that particular node.
So for instance. Regular mining node. Produces 75 iron from 5 minutes harvesting and it takes 1 hour for the resource table to replenish it. But if you strip mine it, it produces 100 iron in 5 minutes, and takes 3 hours for the loot table to replenish it. In addition this action may affect the development indexes of the hex and mess with escalations cycles.
This action may flag you to the owners of the hex where you did it, if it's against their laws.
But... why?
I firmly believe all things that open you up to PvP should affect other players. Clearcutting/strip-mining obviously does. You're ravaging the loot tables to get a faster harvesting time. Which is why you can now add this...
The Ravager Flag
Clear cutting and strip-mining gives you the ravager flag, no matter where it is done, with the length of the ravager flag increasing as you do it more and and more.
The ravager flag makes you killable without rep or alignment loss to all druids.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Druid would be a class. Why base an entire mechanic around a single class. It would make more sense that the flag would allow the owners of the hex to take advantage of the situation rather than an independent druid. And what of Blight druids. They seek only to destroy the land.
There are many questions, and few answers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Official UNC response, also built within the Pax / UNC alliance agreement:
Interdiction - These contracts will be issued to individuals or companies best suited to intercept cargos of contraband; Resources taken from Pax Aeternum controlled hexes without authorization; or Resources passing through Aeternum controlled hexes for possible delivery to parts unknown. Interdiction Contracts will also cover the investigation and potential interference, dismantling or the pressing into the service of Pax Aeternum, any unauthorized POI placed within Pax Aeternum’s area of influence.
As clearly stated we, Pax Aeternum and the UNC, will exercise our rights (Through intimidation, force and adhering to the River Freedoms) to engage any unauthorized harvesting operation (big or small)taking place on Pax Aeternum controlled lands. If this will require standard reputation consequences, both the UNC and Pax Aeternum have agreed that these are acceptable within the terms of the alliance and the proposed mechanics of the game.
No additional PVP flags are needed. What is needed is a willingness to accept that some actions, resulting in reputation loss, will be necessary. This I believe falls within the Devs vision of meaningful human interaction, through the use of potentially unsanctioned PVP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Druid would be a class. Why base an entire mechanic around a single class. It would make more sense that the flag would allow the owners of the hex to take advantage of the situation rather than an independent druid.
Well given the break from the classes our perception of what a "druid" is, has to change a bit.
From the core rulebook:
A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description).
So even if you splash a single level into druid you are bound by this need to revere nature, you learn a secret language, etc. and you have to kind of live within certain bounds to maintain those druid abilities.
Perhaps in PFO living this druidic lifestyle could be a requirement to take levels as a druid but taking levels as a druid might not be a requirement for living that lifestyle.
If someone is well versed in the lore on druids in Pathfinder (For instance where do they learn that language. Do they all belong to some form of druidic order?) their input would be very welcome.
Also I both support Decius's suggestion, and like I said, strip-mining someone's hex should flag you to (at the least) the groups who owns it if you aren't allowed to by their laws.
And what of Blight druids. They seek only to destroy the land.
I would not agree with that assessment of blight druids at all:
The devoted servants of nature corrupted, ruined, and destroyed, blight druids are the caretakers of lands ravaged by natural disaster. While some are devoted to reforming and reclaiming lands despoiled by the ravages of civilization, others seek out the more rapacious violence inherent in nature and feed the creeping rot and decay that brings an end to all things.
To me the idea of a blight druid is that this is nature but so is this.
Nature can be beautiful and provide sustenance, but it is also the source of decay and disease. While we picture druids protecting pretty forests and making friends with deer, a blight druid is the keeper of the parts of nature we would like to forget about. They certainly do not aim to destroy the land in the same way clear-cutting or strip mining would. Some might say they aim to "corrupt" it. But really they just champion of a lesser loved aspect of it.
@Decius
I think what Bludd is saying is that illicit harvesting in Aeternum territories will be dealt with harshly regardless of what mechanics are put in place and if it means a rep or alignment hit then so be it.
Having said that I am sure there will be routes for those interested to obtain licenses to run harvesting operations in our territories for various materials. We would certainly for instance be planning on issuing an unconditional license to the guide program for running tutorial harvesting operations
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Goblin Squad Member
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This topic really isn't concerned with harvesting resources in lands owned by a company. I've always assumed each company can set their own policy concerning the harvesting of their resources.
What I'm talking about is a separate mechanic with separate permissions. For instance TEO will likely allow people to harvest our resources unless there is a shortage, but we would not be likely to allow people to clearcut and strip mine them.
Obviously if Pax won't let anyone not under contract at their resources, the fact that they are clearcutting / strip mining is irrelevant as harvesting in the first place was already illegal. Unless they are under contract but not authorized to stip mine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nothing against the idea (it's an interesting take on harvesting), but after reading this thread, I'm proposing the creation of a new class - River Kingdom Lawyer - because I think I'm going to need one to keep track of who can do what where, with what permission, on which Wednesday of the month, after moving your brother's clothes down to the lower peg...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd imagine the way it will work is people managing hex's will have a menu where they can set laws and manage who has what permissions.
At any point you would be about to break a law it would say something to the effect of "The owners of this hex do not allow that here, if you continue you will be flagged as a criminal."
The player can then choose to heed or ignore that. Of course there are other laws that won't / can't be measured by mechanics, but that's a whole different ball-game. This mechanic is something that's obviously easily measured and flagged.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not a bad result if there are complex relationships to manage and be aware of. Makes decisions more thoughtful and as Ravenlute points out in another post, leads to all sorts of unintended consequences when you don't have enough time to fully access a situation. All good for the game.
=
Basically, the Outpost sends raw materials to the Settlement stockpile/stash which can then be used to service the DI and materials used from there that are excess supply to use for new building constuction or upgrades iirc from the 'buildings blog'?
So changing the rate of production in the Outpost it might be an interesting decision to make, but it might depend how big the stockpile can be in the settlement also? It'd be an option if the hex is near being taken then you could possibly strip it, ship the goods and see if it's taken or not? Additionally if suspicion of siege then strip more hexes to stockpile? I'm not sure if that is good or bad in those scenarios, as it makes it too easy to get reserves without longer term planning maybe ie "save for the future" or "worry about it when it happens"? It might be best not to have it so that Hexes are always at all times the valuable place to control. Alternatively it might depend "how deep" a particular Hexes' pockets are for a particular resource that allows such an option??
I can't figure out the unintended consequences: Is that good or bad?!
However the element of environmental degradation without prudent managment eg having to go about "planting seedlings" and waiting a long time for trees/wood regeneration of that reservoir in a hex, even if not graphically represented? It's an alternative angle to the rate of the faucet taps being able to manipulate those or not, but it could open up more skill specializations required for when Nations/hexes are highly developed even further down the road.
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Goblin Squad Member
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However the element of environmental degradation without prudent managment eg having to go about "planting seedlings" and waiting a long time for trees/wood regeneration of that reservoir in a hex, even if not graphically represented? It's an alternative angle to the rate of the faucet taps being able to manipulate those or not, but it could open up more skill specializations required for when Nations/hexes are highly developed even further down the road.
I can definitely see some of the skills mentioned in other posts coming into play in specific circumstances (circumstances that a carefully trained character would be best able to exploit), such as a "Farm" Outpost that required the reseeding of the ground, or a farm outpost with an undesignated output...that trained character could plant whatever output seedlings the settlement needed giving the controlling settlement greater control of their resources. Easy adjustment to the skill tree if not already considered. These locations could surely have more than one output per game year and could be changed (crop rotation anyone?) at specific intervals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At any point you would be about to break a law it would say something to the effect of "The owners of this hex do not allow that here, if you continue you will be flagged as a criminal."
The player can then choose to heed or ignore that. Of course there are other laws that won't / can't be measured by mechanics, but that's a whole different ball-game. This mechanic is something that's obviously easily measured and flagged.
I'm thinking that this might actually limit PVP opportunities, rather than create them.
If you attach a Criminal Flag to an action conducted by a non pvp minded character, the threat of that flag might deter them from performing that activity.
This does not hold true for the pvp oriented, career criminal, who welcomes both that status of the Criminal Flag and the consequences that go along with it.
So if a criminal flag is attached to a harvester, it may deter that harvester from choosing to strip mine.
I would rather have a player based system of allowing the harvester to commit his act of strip mining and being unaware of the potential player enforced consequences of it.
As a bandit, and an aggressive defender of my home turf, I see the loss of several opportunities with your plan:
1. I can always raid the harvester's operation and steal the resources.
2. I can raid the caravan of the harvester (SAD or Ambush) and take the goods while in transit.
3. I could seize the harvesting POI in a raid and turn it over to a Pax authorized harvester.
4. I could just kill the harvester, destroy the harvesting POI and leave the door open for another to set up shop.
Granted some of these reactions might not be sanctioned by the game mechanics, but I'm a criminal and I welcome the consequences when sending the message is more meaningful then worrying about reputation.
* Note, alignment shifts are never a consideration for me. Chaotic "Anything" is fine by me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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However the element of environmental degradation without prudent managment eg having to go about "planting seedlings" and waiting a long time for trees/wood regeneration of that reservoir in a hex, even if not graphically represented? It's an alternative angle to the rate of the faucet taps being able to manipulate those or not, but it could open up more skill specializations required for when Nations/hexes are highly developed even further down the road.I can definitely see some of the skills mentioned in other posts coming into play in specific circumstances (circumstances that a carefully trained character would be best able to exploit), such as a "Farm" Outpost that required the reseeding of the ground, or a farm outpost with an undesignated output...that trained character could plant whatever output seedlings the settlement needed giving the controlling settlement greater control of their resources. Easy adjustment to the skill tree if not already considered. These locations could surely have more than one output per game year and could be changed (crop rotation anyone?) at specific intervals.
I see where you're going I believe: So diversifying crop type and sophistication of eg Farms increases yield/quality of the rating of "Food Input" into larger/more developed settlements thereby supporting them more efficiently/maximally and corresponding eg orchard/vineyard/etc and skill-training. Hmm though vineyards might do brisker business with Inns! Notably more granular sub-tasks (a bit like crafting) added over time to increase the complexity of the operation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In most fantasy settings the wanton pillaging of the land for its resources is considered an evil act. I view strip mining and clear cutting IG much the same way as slavery. In exchange for expedient gains one harms the people and world around oneself. Looking at it this way I think strip mining should cause a shift toward evil.
An interesting possibility would be if excessive harvesting had the chance to cause an escalation cycle. Woodland fey along with local npc druids rangers and barbarians begin to attack PCs trying to harvest resources in the area. PCs with specializations more attuned to nature could choose to aide these escalation cycles. Rewards for helping the cycle could range from special items and resources to rare settlement structures. The local settlements wouldn't like all the tree-huggers interfering with their resource income so meaningful player interaction would soon follow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At any point you would be about to break a law it would say something to the effect of "The owners of this hex do not allow that here, if you continue you will be flagged as a criminal."
Don't forget the common-law concept of "ignorance of the law is no excuse". There may be no such warnings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At any point you would be about to break a law it would say something to the effect of "The owners of this hex do not allow that here, if you continue you will be flagged as a criminal."Don't forget the common-law concept of "ignorance of the law is no excuse". There may be no such warnings.
Ryan has previously said you would always get some kind of warning before getting flagged.
One meta-rule we have self-imposed is that nobody becomes a criminal by accident, and without warning beforehand. It will not happen due to someone else's actions, only your own.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At any point you would be about to break a law it would say something to the effect of "The owners of this hex do not allow that here, if you continue you will be flagged as a criminal."Don't forget the common-law concept of "ignorance of the law is no excuse". There may be no such warnings.Ryan has previously said you would always get some kind of warning before getting flagged.
One meta-rule we have self-imposed is that nobody becomes a criminal by accident, and without warning beforehand. It will not happen due to someone else's actions, only your own.
That is fine, but what if, for those of us who want to commit crimes and such, there was an option in the menu to auto accept those warnings as to not see them any more. That will get real annoying real fast that every time I am about to stab someone I get a pop-up saying "this will flag you as a criminal" and I just wanna say "but I AM a criminal".
As for stip mining and clearcutting, the big issue comes down to how would one know if they are doing so? Lets say I am a harvester, out to do some mining. Not counting motherlodes, I am just hitting small nodes and what I can carry. Going node to node, when does it become "stripped?" Is there a message on the screen saying "this area has reached it limit for the day, any additional mining will fall under as strip mining." That is behind the scenes data, or I think it is anyway, so how does it makes sense to inform us of these thresh holds?
Also, what about people or normally groups, that WANT to strip mine. Say they get permission (because of a war or something) to drain the lands dry. Is it still against the law? Or do you have to change the law until the war is over, then put it back and let the land regrow?
I definitely don't think this needs it's own flag, falling under criminal is fine as long as it remains tied to a law like murder. No law means not a crime means no flag.
Just to touch on what bludd said, I think the point he is trying to say, here and a few other threads, isn't that we as the UNC want to be griefers and will ignore the reputation system to do so, it is that there is expected to be situations where it might be worth it to take the hit to reputation to accomplish something. Like deciding to ambush a caravan instead of SADing it. In this case, finding "poachers" or the equivalent for harvester, might qualify for out right attacking, flagged or not. That is the jist I think. Not something you do all the time as that hurts you in the long run, but there will be times it is needed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In most fantasy settings the wanton pillaging of the land for its resources is considered an evil act. I view strip mining and clear cutting IG much the same way as slavery. In exchange for expedient gains one harms the people and world around oneself. Looking at it this way I think strip mining should cause a shift toward evil.
An interesting possibility would be if excessive harvesting had the chance to cause an escalation cycle. Woodland fey along with local npc druids rangers and barbarians begin to attack PCs trying to harvest resources in the area. PCs with specializations more attuned to nature could choose to aide these escalation cycles. Rewards for helping the cycle could range from special items and resources to rare settlement structures. The local settlements wouldn't like all the tree-huggers interfering with their resource income so meaningful player interaction would soon follow.
This is definitely a cool concept. I only hope that the rewards for defeating the escalation are very small compared to other escalation varieties. It should be a consequence of overharvesting too rapidly, not a bonus reward.
I think this same basic idea of NPC escalations starting as a result of overharvesting could be applied to normal, non-stripping gathering as well. I don't see druids and fey finding slowly destroying the land as being that much better than quickly destroying it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see druids and fey finding slowly destroying the land as being that much better than quickly destroying it.
Ayup. While some of the proposals might have the land recover even more slowly, the hard reality is that people have exhausted the land, regardless of their methods.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One meta-rule we have self-imposed is that nobody becomes a criminal by accident, and without warning beforehand. It will not happen due to someone else's actions, only your own.That is fine, but what if, for those of us who want to commit crimes and such, there was an option in the menu to auto accept those warnings as to not see them any more. That will get real annoying real fast that every time I am about to stab someone I get a pop-up saying "this will flag you as a criminal" and I just wanna say "but I AM a criminal".
Wurm Online had a really great solution to this. In Wurm there are actions that are against the law, and if you follow a deity, actions that will anger that particular deity.
At the bottom of the screen, among a few other buttons are "lawful" and "faithful" buttons. If you have those selected it assumes you are trying to follow the law and your faith, and gives you a warning, then blocks the action every time you try to do something that violates either.
If you turn them off, there is no warning, and you get to do it. It would be simple to use a similar system to enable/disable warnings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be simple to use a similar system to enable/disable warnings.
I'm not sure the buttons to toggle limitations need to be on the main UI, but if they are toggled off, there should be an indicator. There could be separate toggles for alignment, reputation, and criminal behavior, for example.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is fine, but what if, for those of us who want to commit crimes and such, there was an option in the menu to auto accept those warnings as to not see them any more.
If you're already flying a flag... say Outlaw... then I can't imagine the system warning you about a lesser flag being applied.
Wurm Online had a really great solution to this. In Wurm there are actions that are against the law, and if you follow a deity, actions that will anger that particular deity.At the bottom of the screen, among a few other buttons are "lawful" and "faithful" buttons. If you have those selected it assumes you are trying to follow the law and your faith, and gives you a warning, then blocks the action every time you try to do something that violates either.
If you turn them off, there is no warning, and you get to do it. It would be simple to use a similar system to enable/disable warnings.
Brilliant. It was annoying to me that certain non-intuitive actions in the Temple of Elemental Evil video game could cause your paladin to become fallen. No matter how hard we try to define alignment, there will always be a certain grays in terms of interpretation. Presumably, though, for the characters affected, discernment would be much easier.
Then again, discernment of sin can be pretty tricky in real life but I'm not sure if that's a fun "system" to simulate!
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is fine, but what if, for those of us who want to commit crimes and such, there was an option in the menu to auto accept those warnings as to not see them any more.If you're already flying a flag... say Outlaw... then I can't imagine the system warning you about a lesser flag being applied.
The alignment flags (ie Outlaw) are gone. Now there will be abilities that can be slotted that do the same things the flag used to allow, but there will be more of them.
Response to Stephen Cheney Post
As for the warning system, that is annoying in EvE and I hope they don't have it or it can easily be switched off.
Also in EvE, harvesters can use a survey tool to tell them how much is left in the node and they can cancel the cycle that would deplete the node to zero. It is because the existence of those fittings, that it becomes the responsibility of industrial corps to not deplete to zero entire asteroid belts. When they do strip mine to zero, entire belts, this is what leads to most High Sec wars.
I would expect the same to occur in PFO. If one settlement or company is strip mining or clear cutting an entire hex, a nearby settlement or company might initiate a feud or war, to drive these greedy harvesters off.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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That is fine, but what if, for those of us who want to commit crimes and such, there was an option in the menu to auto accept those warnings as to not see them any more.If you're already flying a flag... say Outlaw... then I can't imagine the system warning you about a lesser flag being applied.The alignment flags (ie Outlaw) are gone. Now there will be abilities that can be slotted that do the same things the flag used to allow, but there will be more of them.
Response to Stephen Cheney Post
As for the warning system, that is annoying in EvE and I hope they don't have it or it can easily be switched off.
Also in EvE, harvesters can use a survey tool to tell them how much is left in the node and they can cancel the cycle that would deplete the node to zero. It is because the existence of those fittings, that it becomes the responsibility of industrial corps to not deplete to zero entire asteroid belts. When they do strip mine to zero, entire belts, this is what leads to most High Sec wars.
I would expect the same to occur in PFO. If one settlement or company is strip mining or clear cutting an entire hex, a nearby settlement or company might initiate a feud or war, to drive these greedy harvesters off.
That quote doesn't say anything about getting rid of the Outlaw flag; why would you conclude that they are gone?
One of the main purposes of feuds and wars is to police the actions of other characters when they impose negative externalities on you.
And warnings are intended for players who don't understand the entire system; they should certainly be user-configurable, but default to the position that a user who doesn't know anything would prefer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@DeciusBrutus
In the Man in Back blog, Tork wrote: The alignment-based flags have been removed in favor of the "for the cause" flags of factional combat. Benefits associated with the Enforcer and Champion flags are now tied to alignment score and to factional membership, and the Assassin and Stand and Deliver special abilities have been moved to skill-based functionality, rather than flag-based functionality.
I read that to say that the alignment based flags are gone; they've been removed. That would include the Enforcer, Champion, Assassin, Outlaw, and Traveler flags.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're already flying a flag... say Outlaw... then I can't imagine the system warning you about a lesser flag being applied.The alignment flags (ie Outlaw) are gone.
Thanks for the reminder, but I'm seriously skeptical that there won't be some kind of all-purpose PvP flag that opens you up to be attacked by anyone, regardless of their faction, and if someone is flying such a flag, I'm positive they won't be pestered with constant warnings. I believe that was the gist of the question I was answering, and I think my answer still stands.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a needed GW blog is more information on what is Evil vs Illegal (chaotic). And what happens in locations where acts are legal but lawful? I do not think this will happen soon, but this is pivotal. Are there gobal GW declarations of chaotic activities. Like Bluddwolf, my character may not find legality a barrier (CG or NG). As Lam see it SAD is not evil, just illegal.
Strip mining has not been seen as evil historically. Well, slavery was not seen as evil until the last couple of centuries. And there are varieties of slavery. Where does voluntary servitude fit into that? If slaves have 'rights' by law, is this less evil?
GW determines what is Evil. DO settlements determine what is criminal? (OK someone will send me reference, but some of these 2012 references have been overtaken by discussions and later blogs). If one gets CRIMINAL flag in one settlement, is that flag still active when returning home where the act is not illegal? If not flagged in home settlement, does a visitor from where the crime occurred see the flag at the aggressor's home?
Lam
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a needed GW blog is more information on what is Evil vs Illegal (chaotic). And what happens in locations where acts are legal but lawful? I do not think this will happen soon, but this is pivotal. Are there gobal GW declarations of chaotic activities. Like Bluddwolf, my character may not find legality a barrier (CG or NG). As Lam see it SAD is not evil, just illegal.
Strip mining has not been seen as evil historically. Well, slavery was not seen as evil until the last couple of centuries. And there are varieties of slavery. Where does voluntary servitude fit into that? If slaves have 'rights' by law, is this less evil?
GW determines what is Evil. DO settlements determine what is criminal? (OK someone will send me reference, but some of these 2012 references have been overtaken by discussions and later blogs). If one gets CRIMINAL flag in one settlement, is that flag still active when returning home where the act is not illegal? If not flagged in home settlement, does a visitor from where the crime occurred see the flag at the aggressor's home?
Lam
Really great questions. Not sure how indepth the devs want to go, or are able to go because of tech and programming, but that would be interesting to have the criminal flag only show in certain areas or even to certain people. After all, SADing might be illegal in 1 hex, where I SAD someone and then come home to sell my spoils, would I still be flagged if SADing isn't illegal there? Great question.
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Druid would be a class. Why base an entire mechanic around a single class. It would make more sense that the flag would allow the owners of the hex to take advantage of the situation rather than an independent druid.Well given the break from the classes our perception of what a "druid" is, has to change a bit.
Having Druids implemented as a faction is the simple solution.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Druid would be a class. Why base an entire mechanic around a single class. It would make more sense that the flag would allow the owners of the hex to take advantage of the situation rather than an independent druid. And what of Blight druids. They seek only to destroy the land.
There are many questions, and few answers.
My consideration is that the mechanic is not focused on a class, but upon the True Neutral alignment. The idea of 'heinous' depends on the good/evil axis. The true neutral also represents an axis between natural balance/moderation and extremism.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I don't see druids and fey finding slowly destroying the land as being that much better than quickly destroying it.
Any experienced woodsman can tell you sound forestry methods help a forest rather than destroy it. Selective cutting reduces disease and admits sunlight to a copse that otherwise may over-compete for light and nourishment.
Resisting the temptation to clear-cut is not destroying nature, but nurturing nature.
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The thing is, a hex can still be cleared of resources using a lot of gathering, even without employing clear-cutting. In my opinion, "sound forestry methods" in this case would be restricting the people who can gather on your lands, and limiting the gathering so that the total resource does not dip too low.
If one hundred people are all practicing careful, non-clear-cutting forestry in the same hex, and are not being regulated and kept from dipping the resource pool too low, the hex will still be impacted by the sheer numbers. Though I agree that clear-cutting and nurturing nature should be mutually exclusive (and clear cutting should always receive an unfriendly response by druids and/or fey), I also think that non-clear cutting is not always nurturing nature; only if done right can it be healthy and non-impactful on the environment.
Edit: I do like the concept of druids who can nurture natural growth inside a hex. However, you would have to be careful about any mechanic placed in game for this; you should make sure that they aren't using these powers to serve any power OOC that they shouldn't IC (what I mean is, they aren't just regenerating the woods for their clear-cutting buddies, or even worse so they can clear cut themselves).
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Goblin Squad Member
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But the thing is, a hex can still be cleared of resources using a lot of gathering, even without employing clear-cutting.
Not unless someone uses the clear-cutting/strip mining mechanic being discussed by the OP.
In my opinion, "sound forestry methods" in this case would be restricting the people who can gather on your lands, and limiting the gathering so that the total resource does not dip too low.
Characters using normal forestry techniques would not find more resource nodes once the optimal forestry methods had been applied. But if one of them applied the strip-mining-clear-cutting option even developing resource nodes might become available and at that point if they harvest those nodes they and their associates should become identifiable as enemies of natural balance.
If one hundred people are all practicing careful, non-clear-cutting forestry in the same hex, and are not being regulated and kept from dipping the resource pool too low, the hex will still be impacted by the sheer numbers. Though I agree that clear-cutting and nurturing nature should be mutually exclusive (and clear cutting should always receive an unfriendly response by druids and/or fey), I also think that non-clear cutting is not always nurturing nature; only if done right can it be healthy and non-impactful on the environment.
If one hundred characters are in a hex using good forestry practices the available nodes would become quickly exhausted, but there would be no harm to the forest itself. Only when someone clear-cuts should the art change and the area become denuded.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah, maybe I misunderstood the OP. I was under the impression that clear-cutting merely consumed the available resources in a hex quicker, resulting in more gains for the gatherer but an unhealthier relationship with the environment (via quicker depletion of the hex's total resources and unpopularity with the local defenders of nature).
Edit: yeah, I reread it and I did indeed forget a couple sentences from the OP that state that regular gathering doesn't harm the environment. Sorry bout that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can't rightly respond for Andius, but only moved the consequent conversation toward where I preferred it should go. I have a fairly developed concept of true neutrality that might reflect what will be but might be wide of the mark. I do think my concepts are good enough to inform the developer of a viable development path except I cannot yet know whether any of the concept is antithetic to the rest of the core game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having Druids implemented as a faction is the simple solution.
The Oakstewards of Sevenarches are already in place within The River Kingdoms but are largely limited to that immediate area (given the lore of the area at least.)
Druids in PnP can be any neutral, they do not have to be TN.The five valid Druid alignments are TN LN CN NG NE .
The reason why a Druid specific settlement may wish to be TN is it allows Druids of any valid alignment to join. Any other settlement alignment will exclude some Druids.
The alternative of course is to simply say that in the PFO game region druids do not have any class specific settlements of their own, the nearest TN "Druid Grove" is somewhere off the edge of the map.
I am not well versed in druid and druidic culture, but these alignments give lots of options to those druids looking to heal the land and prevent its destruction.