Alchemist, 2 x Vestigal Arm, Multiweapon attack => 4 thrown daggers @ -2?

[Tandriniel]

Hi,

For my Alchemist, I am considering this build:

2 x Vestigal Arm
Feat: Multiweapon Attack

Throw 4 daggers.

He is Goblin, and has very high dex (and poor strength), so the effect would come from having poisoned daggers/darts/etc.

Is it RAW?

Could it be boosted?

Thanks.

[Thomas, A]

Multiweapon Fighting (Combat) This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons. Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands. Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands. Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.

Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times

for purpose of argument

[Eridan]

Quote:

Multiweapon Fighting (Combat) This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons. Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands. Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands. Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.

Can you more attacks with the vestigal arm?

Quote:

Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.

No.

So the answer is 'no it is not legal by RAW'.

[Thomas, A]

it might though only because Multyiweapon fighting gives you the extra attacks

i have never used that feat in any of my games but its it works like Two-Weapon Fighting and i assume all the other Two-Weapon Fighting feats then it would by RAW

[Bizbag]

Multiweapon fighting does not grant extra attacks. It only reduces penalties on existing extra attacks.

[Kazaan]

A creature that naturally has 4 arms has 1 main-hand attack and 3 off-hand attacks. Vestigial arms only let you hold items or wield weapons; they don't give you additional off-hand attacks whether or not you have Multiweapon Fighting. So you could have, for the sake of example, 3 iterative attacks via BAB. Normally, with only 2 hands, you could wield a weapon in each one and use either one for your iteratives and it is not Two-Weapon Fighting since you're not going over your allotment of 3 attacks. If you have an additional pair of vestigial arms for a total of 4 hands, you could wield 4 weapons but still only make 3 attacks via BAB. Alternatively, you could employ TWF to get attacks over your BAB alotment, but it's still only 1 off-hand attack standard unless you have ITWF for a second and GTWF for a third, even if you have a million vestigial arms.

To illustrate, say you have a Zombie, a Skeleton, and a Human Necromancer adjacent to you; Zombie has DR/S and Skeleton has DR/B. Your best weapon, a Rapier with +5 enhancement and Bane vs Human, deals piercing damage but you also have a +3 Longsword and a +3 Light Hammer as backup weapons. Obviously, the Rapier is best against the necromancer, but it's pretty poor vs the undead and the other weapons would be better to use. With only 2 arms, however, you'd need to pick two to use at a time so you're obviously going to use the Rapier vs the Necromancer but you've got to pick either the sword for the zombie or the hammer for the skeleton. But if you had 3 hands, you could wield all three at once and, though you don't get extra off-hand or iterative attacks, you can divide your attacks among the different weapons and make AoOs with whatever is appropriate for the creature that provokes.

Or, another situation, you can wield a weapon in 2 hands but still have a hand available to wear a shield.

[Bizbag]

Quote:

Or, another situation, you can wield a weapon in 2 hands but still have a hand available to wear a shield.

This is correct, RAW.

On a personal note, I don't like that rule (even if it is supported by FAQ) because it implies you don't have to do anything with a shield besides wear it. Anyone who's ever used a shield knows you have to USE it; so I think it should consume action economy like a weapon. There's already hints of this with the buckler; you don't get its AC if you attack with that hand. Basically, you have to block with a shield, not just wear one. That's why you get a shield bonus and not just an armor bonus.

That said, few enough people invest in AC builds, so it isn't exactly a priority problem.

Edit: I don't mean you should have to TWF with a shield to gain its AC, I just think it should count the same way a weapon would, like with the THF+armor spikes issue, or for the alchemist. An FAQ stated you can't use a TH weapon and armor spikes, as that'd be three "hands", but you could use a 1-handet, a shield, and spikes, which seemed incongruous. But again, relatively minor problem.

[Kazaan]

That ruling was more for division of Str bonuses and was more mechanical in nature. Another factor to consider is perceptive balance. Your vestibular sense is sort of primed to deal with two arms and the interactions between them while a creature that naturally possesses more limbs is primed to deal with those. But for a creature primed to deal with two limbs to be granted additional ones likely throws the vestibular sense into disarray. This is a biological rationalization for why the additional limbs aren't treated as mechanical "hands" in reference to potential attacks; your brain can only coordinate attacks properly between so many hands at once. But when you're wielding a two-handed weapon, you can put both those hands on the "same gear" so to speak as the supporting hand is just going along for the ride while your brain focuses on directing the main hand to attack with the weapon, leaving you one additional "gear" worth of brainpower to direct your shield.

[Tandriniel]

Thanks for the answers.

I would be able to wield 2 hand crossbows then, and use "classical" two weapon fighting, using the extra hands to cock and reload.

How about wielding a two-handed weapon AND a light weapon? (and maybe also a shield).

[Claxon]

You cannot attack with a two-handed weapon and another weapon in the same round, you could attack with a two handed weapon and have a shield in a 3rd arm to benefit for the purposes of AC only. For example, you could not make a shield bash attack with it, unless you chose not to use the two-handed wepaon).

[Bizbag]

Claxon wrote:

You cannot attack with a two-handed weapon and another weapon in the same round, you could attack with a two handed weapon and have a shield in a 3rd arm to benefit for the purposes of AC only. For example, you could not make a shield bash attack with it, unless you chose not to use the two-handed wepaon).

This here is correct. Two "hands" of weapons max, but shields are valid if you have the arm.

That's the rule, I just disagree with it. Shields aren't a passive defense in my mind; you have to block with them.

[Claxon]

Bizbag wrote:

Claxon wrote:

You cannot attack with a two-handed weapon and another weapon in the same round, you could attack with a two handed weapon and have a shield in a 3rd arm to benefit for the purposes of AC only. For example, you could not make a shield bash attack with it, unless you chose not to use the two-handed wepaon).

This here is correct. Two "hands" of weapons max, but shields are valid if you have the arm.

That's the rule, I just disagree with it. Shields aren't a passive defense in my mind; you have to block with them.

I agree with you to a certain extent about the whole of realism and such, but the rules are as they are. Also, were talking about someone who chugs random beverages he concontacted and discovered they magical grew some extra arms so...

[Charender]

Claxon wrote:

Bizbag wrote:

Claxon wrote:

You cannot attack with a two-handed weapon and another weapon in the same round, you could attack with a two handed weapon and have a shield in a 3rd arm to benefit for the purposes of AC only. For example, you could not make a shield bash attack with it, unless you chose not to use the two-handed wepaon).

This here is correct. Two "hands" of weapons max, but shields are valid if you have the arm.

That's the rule, I just disagree with it. Shields aren't a passive defense in my mind; you have to block with them.

I agree with you to a certain extent about the whole of realism and such, but the rules are as they are. Also, were talking about someone who chugs random beverages he concontacted and discovered they magical grew some extra arms so...

Don't forget the sentient tumor...

[Adamantine Dragon]

I can just see the discussion in the game design conference room when the alchemist class was being designed:

"Hey, I know! Let's give this class the ability to add an extra arm using a class feature! Or TWO. Maybe THREE!"

"I dunno, do you think some players might try to exploit the extra arms to gain an unbalanced edge in combat?"

"Naw, of course not."

"Cool, let's do it."