Is it just every attempt to continue the grapple, or does it include the first grapple attempt?
This is a pretty significant point, actually.
Eidolon Rake:
An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution.
According to Jason Bulmahn, Eidolon Rake is independent of the standard rules.
Paired with the Grab ability, this lets an Eidolon use the following tactic:
Claw -> Free grapple check from Grab -> Two Rakes -> Drop as a free action -> Claw -> Repeat
In addition, whatever a "check" is, determines the bonuses granted to grapple checks.
Eidolon Grab:
An eidolon becomes adept at grappling foes, gaining the grab ability. Pick bite, claw, pincers, slam, tail slap, or tentacle attacks. Whenever the eidolon makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the eidolon grapples the target. This ability only works on creatures of a size one category smaller than the eidolon or smaller. Eidolons with this evolution receive a +4 bonus on CMB checks made to grapple.
Improved Grapple:
You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to grapple you.
Greater Grapple:
You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
I made this thread about a potential lv14 Summoner build, and the topic came up. It's what distinguishes between 200+ average damage and 100 average damage on a full attack.
Greater Grapple is allowing you to maintain the grapple as a move action for the first check and then use your Standard Action to damage the target a second time in the same round as a grapple-check without having to roll for it.
What is the purpose of dropping the grapple to reestablish it? If you did that, you would have to roll to grapple again.
If all I'm going for is damage then the best tactic is
Bite -> Claw -> Grab -> 2x Rake -> Drop -> Claw -> Grab -> 2x RakeSo:
Bite -> Claw -> 2x Rake -> Claw -> 2x Rake
vs
Bite -> Claw -> Claw
Which depends entirely on what is considered a "grapple check". If the initial grapple is considered a check, then that tactic works and the damage dealt is essentially doubled.
If I were just trying to grapple a monster with my Eidolon to keep them occupied then of course I wouldn't do this. But considering this can add over 100 damage to the average/round I need to know the rules for it.
Universal Monster Rules
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Constrict gets extra damage when you establish the hold, other special attacks (Eidolon's Rake, for example) do no get extra damage
Constrict gets extra damage when you establish the hold, other special attacks (Eidolon's Rake, for example) do no get extra damageUniversal Monster Rules
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Just one problem with that though. For Pounce and Rake, the Eidolon versions function independently of the core rules based on the FAQ. Because Eidolon grab has a separate text as well, we have to assume that it functions only as it is described on the Summoner page:
Grab (Ex)
"An eidolon becomes adept at grappling foes, gaining the grab ability. Pick bite, claw, pincers, slam, tail slap, or tentacle attacks. Whenever the eidolon makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the eidolon grapples the target. This ability only works on creatures of a size one category smaller than the eidolon or smaller. Eidolons with this evolution receive a +4 bonus on CMB checks made to grapple."
By definition, an Eidolon's Rake deals damage on a successful grapple check. Since this Grab gives the Eidolon a free "combat maneuver check" it means the Rakes should apply, based on what I'm seeing.
For Eidolon Pounce you don't get free Rend attacks on a charge because it doesn't state that in the definition of it, even though the standard rules for Pounce do. At least according to the FAQ. I think we need to apply that to Eidolon Grab as well where it only does what it says it does.
Just one problem with that though. For Pounce and Rake, the Eidolon versions function independently of the core rules based on the FAQ. Because Eidolon grab has a separate text as well, we have to assume that it functions only as it is described on the Summoner page:Grab (Ex)
"An eidolon becomes adept at grappling foes, gaining the grab ability. Pick bite, claw, pincers, slam, tail slap, or tentacle attacks. Whenever the eidolon makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the eidolon grapples the target. This ability only works on creatures of a size one category smaller than the eidolon or smaller. Eidolons with this evolution receive a +4 bonus on CMB checks made to grapple."
By definition, an Eidolon's Rake deals damage on a successful grapple check. Since this Grab gives the Eidolon a free "combat maneuver check" it means the Rakes should apply, based on what I'm seeing.
For Eidolon Pounce you don't get free Rend attacks on a charge because it doesn't state that in the definition of it, even though the standard rules for Pounce do. At least according to the FAQ. I think we need to apply that to Eidolon Grab as well where it only does what it says it does.
*emphasis mine
"(The eidolon) ...[gains] the grab ability." Can't be much plainer than that. There's only one grab ability, in the universal monster rules, and that's what the Eidolon gets.
Just one problem with that though. For Pounce and Rake, the Eidolon versions function independently of the core rules based on the FAQ. Because Eidolon grab has a separate text as well, we have to assume that it functions only as it is described on the Summoner page:Grab (Ex)
"An eidolon becomes adept at grappling foes, gaining the grab ability. Pick bite, claw, pincers, slam, tail slap, or tentacle attacks. Whenever the eidolon makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the eidolon grapples the target. This ability only works on creatures of a size one category smaller than the eidolon or smaller. Eidolons with this evolution receive a +4 bonus on CMB checks made to grapple."
By definition, an Eidolon's Rake deals damage on a successful grapple check. Since this Grab gives the Eidolon a free "combat maneuver check" it means the Rakes should apply, based on what I'm seeing.
For Eidolon Pounce you don't get free Rend attacks on a charge because it doesn't state that in the definition of it, even though the standard rules for Pounce do. At least according to the FAQ. I think we need to apply that to Eidolon Grab as well where it only does what it says it does.
*emphasis mine
"(The eidolon) ...[gains] the grab ability." Can't be much plainer than that. There's only one grab ability, in the universal monster rules, and that's what the Eidolon gets.
That is true (and for comparison I checked and Pounce does NOT have similar language so that doesn't contradict), but the Eidolon Grab also states "This ability only works on creatures of a size one category smaller than the eidolon or smaller". Besides this one line they don't contradict at all, and I assume it never got changed after the errata from Bestiary 2. So basically, the Eidolon Grab is restricted by the Grab ability's text but also gets an additional penalty. Kind of strange.
I have no problem with considering the Eidolon Grab to be the exact same thing as the normal Grab, but it has to be all or nothing. Either they're the same ability and so all normal rules apply, or they're different abilities and you have to read the text individually. The errata stated all Grab abilities should have been changed by it, so either the Eidolon one was skipped or it is not a normal Grab.
My point is that there is no need to drop your Grapple and try to establish it again. Your Greater Grapple gives you your Grapple damage (including grab-claw and rakes) on both your Move Action and Standard Action, and you only have to roll the grapple-check once.
But there IS a need to drop the grapple and establish it again when using a full-attack if I want to deal maximum damage. I can't make use of Greater Grapple on a full-attack because the standard and move action are consumed on a full-attack or on a charge that ends in pounce. I am not talking about starting a round when the enemy is already grappled; I'm talking about charging from across the room and using Pounce into a full-attack, which leads to a grapple. What you're saying applies on the following turns and I'm not saying you're wrong, but we're talking about two different points in time.
So turn 1:
Charge -> Pounce -> Bite -> Claw -> Grab -> Rakes -> Claw -> Grab -> Rakes
Turn 2:
Grapple Check -> Claw -> Rakes -> Grapple Check -> Claw -> Rakes
-------
But back to the main question. Should Rake work on the initial grapple? Is that grapple considered a "check"?
In that case you are trying to Grapple twice in the same round, once for each claw that is giving you Grab?
Yes. Since dropping the grapple is a free action and the rules don't say becoming grappled ends your full-attack, it should work. But that depends on whether or not the Eidolon Grab is under the same rules as universal Grab and whether or not the initial grapple is considered a "check".
If Eidolon Grab is considered its own thing (which it seems to be since it already has different rules) it means you can deal damage with it on the first grapple unlike universal Grab. That should let Rake deal damage so long as the first grab is considered a "check". I assume it is, but I want to be sure.
The Rake rule for Eidolons is confusing, but I am pretty sure that Rake is only supposed to be applied when you do the "Damage" option for your grapple, which is a separate action from combat maneuver that gives you the grappled condition.
That's the confusing part. Rake, Rend, Pounce, Grab, etc. All have counterparts in the universal rules for creatures.
Pounce: Lacks the same language as universal. From the FAQ this is considered a different ability.
Rake: According to the FAQ it follows its own rules.
Grab: No ruling thus far.
Rend: Works the same as the universal rend.
I have no idea what the intent of the rules are because they're so convoluted. But... the only ruling we have on Rake is the following:
"2. The eidolon version follows the eidolon rules." - Jason Bulmahn
If that's the case then Rake should work every single time a grapple check is successful.
"An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution."
So... what is a "check"? Like I linked in my OP, the Grab evolution, Greater Grapple, and Improved Grapple all give bonuses to grapple "checks". If they're meant to work on the very first grapple, then technically Rake should as well.
Meaning this tactic for colossal damage output is legal. But I don't want to use it if I'm wrong.
The Rake rule for Eidolons is confusing, but I am pretty sure that Rake is only supposed to be applied when you do the "Damage" option for your grapple, which is a separate action from combat maneuver that gives you the grappled condition.That's the confusing part. Rake, Rend, Pounce, Grab, etc. All have counterparts in the universal rules for creatures.
Pounce: Lacks the same language as universal. From the FAQ this is considered a different ability.
Rake: According to the FAQ it follows its own rules.
Grab: No ruling thus far.
Rend: Works the same as the universal rend.
I have no idea what the intent of the rules are because they're so convoluted. But... the only ruling we have on Rake is the following:
"2. The eidolon version follows the eidolon rules." - Jason Bulmahn
If that's the case then Rake should work every single time a grapple check is successful.
"An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution."
So... what is a "check"? Like I linked in my OP, the Grab evolution, Greater Grapple, and Improved Grapple all give bonuses to grapple "checks". If they're meant to work on the very first grapple, then technically Rake should as well.
Meaning this tactic for colossal damage output is legal. But I don't want to use it if I'm wrong.
FOR THE GRAB ISSUE:
This is easily explained by the Specific vs. General rule (which is, a specific rule overrides a general rule).Since the Eidolon has a specific rule that changes how its Grab ability works it overrides any conflicting rules in the Universal Monster Ability.
FOR THE RAKE ISSUE:
Well the evolution counts as a natural attack. So every time you use the 2 free attacks that counts as a natural attack.
So if you pounce you could Claw, Grapple, Rakex2. That is 2 natural attacks (the good thing on the rake is you get 2 for 1 because it specifically states the evolution is only 1 attack for the 2 rakes).
Let's look at a summoner's eidolon max attacks at different levels:
1) 3 Max Natural Attacks
5) 4 Max Natural Attacks
10) 5 Max Natural Attacks
15) 6 Max Natural Attacks
20) 7 Max Natural Attacks
So at level 10, for example. You could charge and Bite, Claw, Rake, Claw, Rake and you are done.
If at level 20, you invested into Rake, and 2x claws evolution you could choose not to bite and instead Claw, Rake, Claw, Rake, Claw, Rake, Claw. You could not Rake again as you've hit the maximum number of natural attacks.
Granted each Rake above is 2 attacks which amounts to good but not crazy damage.
That being said this seems perfectly legal (if a bit cheesy). Generally monsters that grab maintain their grapples but I see where this is more advantageous.
In addition your Eidolon can only use this ability against something at least one size smaller than it. Which limits its effectiveness as monsters quickly grow in size and Eidolon's must spend alot of points to increase it's size.
To get 2 Claw Evolutions (2 pts), Grab (2 pts), Rake (2 pts), Large (4 pts), and flying (2 pt) it costs a total of 12 evolution points which means you are at least 9th level (8th level for races that add 1/4 pts) and at this level you have no ability increase, no natural armor increase. You sacrifice alot to gain this damage.
Honestly I think it's pretty balanced for what it costs. I just think maybe you think you are getting the rakes for free but Eidolon's are always constrained by their natural attack limit.
The Rake rule for Eidolons is confusing, but I am pretty sure that Rake is only supposed to be applied when you do the "Damage" option for your grapple, which is a separate action from combat maneuver that gives you the grappled condition.That's the confusing part. Rake, Rend, Pounce, Grab, etc. All have counterparts in the universal rules for creatures.
Pounce: Lacks the same language as universal. From the FAQ this is considered a different ability.
Rake: According to the FAQ it follows its own rules.
Grab: No ruling thus far.
Rend: Works the same as the universal rend.
I have no idea what the intent of the rules are because they're so convoluted. But... the only ruling we have on Rake is the following:
"2. The eidolon version follows the eidolon rules." - Jason Bulmahn
If that's the case then Rake should work every single time a grapple check is successful.
"An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution."
So... what is a "check"? Like I linked in my OP, the Grab evolution, Greater Grapple, and Improved Grapple all give bonuses to grapple "checks". If they're meant to work on the very first grapple, then technically Rake should as well.
Meaning this tactic for colossal damage output is legal. But I don't want to use it if I'm wrong.
FOR THE GRAB ISSUE:
This is easily explained by the Specific vs. General rule (which is, a specific rule overrides a general rule).Since the Eidolon has a specific rule that changes...
Glad to see I'm not crazy. I agree with much of what you said barring two things.
Natural Attack limit doesn't limit the number of times you can deal damage per round, it just limits the number of evolutions you can take that add natural attacks. I shouldn't need to take Rake multiple times:
"This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons."
Regarding Rend, you can not take any evolution unless it states you can take it multiple times:
"Evolutions are grouped by their cost in evolution points. Evolution points cannot be saved. All of the points must be spent whenever the summoner gains a level. Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once."
-----------
As an aside, I was planning on countering the inability to use Grab Large/Huge opponents by casting Enlarge Person or taking the Huge evolution, but I'm not sure its worth it. Taking the Huge evolution might be worth it though. It doubles as the Reach evolution for every single attack, and is the equivalent of taking Ability Score increase 3 times. It's not like being Huge is a downside since I can just cast Reduce Person and have him squeeze if need be.
Regarding the damage. I did the math on the other thread. At lv14 (assuming I would exchange some points for the Legs and Claw evolution) the damage output on a full-attack with Power Attack averages at 287. It's not just the number of attacks, its that each attack is adding an additional 1d6+15 (energy attacks + power attack + strength) damage on top of the normal dice roll.
Natural Attack limit doesn't limit the number of times you can deal damage per round, it just limits the number of evolutions you can take that add natural attacks. I shouldn't need to take Rake multiple times..."This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons."
I agree. You only need to take it once. Rake says anytime you succeed on a grapple check. And with Grab you have to choose what attack it works with (claws). But what I didn't notice is that you can only select claws once for legs. So you couldn't pounce with a quadruped's back legs as claw attacks.
As for number of attacks the SRD seems pretty plain to me.
This indicates the maxiumum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level.
That is number of attacks, not number of evolution attacks. No other evolution (see Claws, see Hooves, see Pincers, see Sting, see Tail Slap, see Tentacle, see Wing Buffet, and see Gore) has the text that Rake does:
An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution
Emphasis mine.
So an Eidolon can never attack more times than this number (the exception as far as I'm concerned is Rake since it clearly stated it in the SRD. And that line was added as a FAQ from this thread here:
Eidolon-Rake-Maximum-Attacks
Honestly each Rake attack could be considered a separate attack by any DM that counts towards the maximum number of attacks an Eidolon can make in a given round if they wanted to be mean but I always err on the side of the player.
Really now that I go over it again with a quadruped with pounce you can only have 2 claw attacks to grab with on the legs unless you start adding more limbs(arms) for claws to go on.
Which again gets into spending a lot of evolution points.
Natural Attack limit doesn't limit the number of times you can deal damage per round, it just limits the number of evolutions you can take that add natural attacks. I shouldn't need to take Rake multiple times..."This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons."I agree. You only need to take it once. Rake says anytime you succeed on a grapple check. And with Grab you have to choose what attack it works with (claws). But what I didn't notice is that you can only select claws once for legs. So you couldn't pounce with a quadruped's back legs as claw attacks.
As for number of attacks the SRD seems pretty plain to me.
This indicates the maxiumum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level.That is number of attacks, not number of evolution attacks. No other evolution (see Claws, see Hooves, see Pincers, see Sting, see Tail Slap, see Tentacle, see Wing Buffet, and see Gore) has the text that Rake does:
An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolutionEmphasis mine.
So an Eidolon can never attack more times than this number (the exception as far as I'm concerned is Rake since it clearly stated it in the SRD. And that line was added as a FAQ from this...
The reason it is there is because they are "Rakes" but because you only get them on grappling it would be unfair for them to be considered two attacks towards your maximum limit. Claws counts as two attacks, bite counts as one, slam counts as one, wing buffets counts as two, hooves counts as two, tentacle counts as one, pincers counts as two. But rakes counts as one. The reason it is stated as counting as one is not to limit the number of times you can attack with them, it is because they are a special case where you get two attacks toward your evolution limit at the cost of one because they can't be used like normal attacks.
Every other evolution gives attacks in a ratio of 1:1 while Rake gives them at a ratio of 2:1, hence the unique text.
-------------------
Max. Attacks
"This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons."
It does not limit the number of times you can attack. It has nothing to do with the usage of the natural attacks. It simply limits the evolutions you can take.
The reason it is there is because they are "Rakes" but because you only get them on grappling it would be unfair for them to be considered two attacks towards your maximum limit. Claws counts as two attacks, bite counts as one, slam counts as one, wing buffets counts as two, hooves counts as two, tentacle counts as one, pincers counts as two. But rakes counts as one. The reason it is stated as counting as one is not to limit the number of times you can attack with them, it is because they are a special case where you get two attacks toward your evolution limit at the cost of one because they can't be used like normal attacks.
Every other evolution gives attacks in a ratio of 1:1 while Rake gives them at a ratio of 2:1, hence the unique text.
-------------------
Max. Attacks
"This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons."
It does not limit the number of times you can attack. It has nothing to do with the usage of the natural attacks. It simply limits the evolutions you can take.
Ok I think you are convincing me here. But let me see if I have this straight: If you have claws that counts as possessing 2 attacks, bite is one, hooves are 2, etc.
If the above statement is correct I see where you are coming from. And while that doesn't limit the number of attacks you can make in a round it's pretty close (rake being the tipper here).
However, and I apologize I derailed this a bit with not understanding it, are you going to get all these extra rake attacks by adding more limbs(arms) evolution with more claws evolution?
Because claws can only be applied once to the limbs(legs) evolution. Which means a quadruped pouncing will only have 2 claw attacks. Which means only 2 possible grab attempts since you have to specify which kind of attacks grab works on?
IF this is the case I think again my original conclusion holds true...you are spending alot of evolution points to get something that does really great damage but you sacrifice other areas as well.