I admit I've never played PFS, but in my entire gaming career, I've never seen a player "demand" the GM do anything. Never ever ever.
So how often does this really happen? Or is this just the hypothetical straw-man for the sake of internet argument?
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It's a straw man.
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It's a straw man.
Hardly.
I personally have had players demand I allow this race or that class (most often because it has some mechanically broken feature to it) even after I have said what is allowed in the campaign I'm running. Only once has it gotten to the point where the player had to be dropped from the game though. I'll admit it is probably pretty rare but to say it never happens? Poppycock.
I suppose it comes down to how you see the word 'demand' then. Begging, hassling, complaining, and having a big cry =/= 'Demand'.
Demand usually comes with an 'or else', or it isn't really a demand, it is a request... even if put across with a bit of a tantrum.
I really meant in the sense of a player saying to the GM, "The rules say X, so that's how it has to be played."
I didn't mean regular discussions/arguments/bribing sessions, etc. :)
Because if they don't bring a gun...
Then you can point at them and give them the Nelson laugh.
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I really meant in the sense of a player saying to the GM, "The rules say X, so that's how it has to be played."
I didn't mean regular discussions/arguments/bribing sessions, etc. :)
I've had this happen to me a few times over the years, but it is exceptionally rare in my experience. I only game with a few friends and have only rarely gamed at conventions, so it might happen with some people and groups more than others.
When it happens I listen to the demand, give my interpretation of the rules with regards to the situation, then move on. Any other discussion is tabled until the end of the session when it can be talked over without disrupting the game. My players have always been mature enough to accept this method.
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Neo 2151, this does occasionally happen. Here is a post I made on June 4th 2012.
I was GMing a PFS game. A PFS game is run with RAW rules.
The name of the thread was "PFS or Plusfinder RPG"
Here is what I posted
I remember in one game I was GMing a few months ago, and the players were in rare form. I was blessed with thee rules lawyers, and they chose to argue amongst themselves over interpertations of the rules. I tried to fit the story in edge wise. Towards the end of the scenario, one of the PCs had successfully disarmed the BBEG of her +1 sword. I decided the BBEG wanted her weapon back, so she cast mage had to get the blade back.
I was then informed by one of the players that i (the GM) could not do that because mage hand didn't work on magical weapons. There was some more questions about how heavy the blade was and some one wanted to look it up.
In sheer frustration I turned on the player and said " Enough already! Do you want me to GM or not? Fine, If the (name of BBeG) cant mage hand the weapon, I'll have her take a five foot step back, and color spray you all."
At that point, I was irritated and after the color spray spell the battle had become much more precarious with a couple of characters incapacitated. At that point I didn't care if the BBeg killed all of the characters there. I wasn't sure if i wanted to do much more PFS GMing after that game.
The players apologized and promised they would try to behave better.
I do realize that in that situation, I was in error, since a mage hand spell can't manipulate
a magical item.
.
That experience has been the exception to the rule. I have had many more games where I enjoyed myself playing and GMing. I particularly enjoy running beginning tables where I am introducing people to the Pathfinder game
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Whaddya mean. This is like mandatory man.... It's like the *very first* requirement for entry into the secret order of the special snowflake.
I'd tell you the second rule was we don't talk about the secret order of the special snowflake, but the second rule is that we actually don't use cheesy movie references in our rules...
Truth be told the secret order of the special snowflake is less like the secret order of ninjas that will lie to you and pretend they don't exist...
We're more like the freemasons... Somebody you know is one... We're a welcome and accepted member of your gaming table aldready.... And we actually run the joint.
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It does happen, I had to quit my most recent group because of it. It was a long time group that slowly degraded over time. So yes it does happen, but my new group is more like you in that they have never had such a situation.
It is so much better to GM for a group that isn't so entitled, and are just there to have fun.
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I admit I've never played PFS, but in my entire gaming career, I've never seen a player "demand" the GM do anything. Never ever ever.
So how often does this really happen? Or is this just the hypothetical straw-man for the sake of internet argument?
Its tough to do but it does happen sometimes.
Sometimes (often) the DM is wrong. If it doesn't matter then it shouldn't matter, but getting nerfed because the DM doesn't know what rule your character makes use of isn't fun.
When to try to correct the DM
1) Is the rule CLEAR? Telling the DM you're doing the stealth or darkness rules wrong is an effort in futility because no one seems to read them the same way. .
2) Is the rule in the book or some Obscure message board post? Underlining a section of core rules and handing it to the DM is pretty strait forward and provable."here look, you can double move on a withdraw" vs "Oh yeah, some guy said it totally works like this, 8 million damage, no save sucka!" is not. There is a vast difference between rules lawyering and rules knowledge
3) Is it central to your build/character? I demand a pink haired human vs Just dye your damn hair. One example I can think of is "you can't find magical traps without trap-spotting" which would negate half the point of my fake rogue. Another was not being able to make attacks while flat footed with combat reflexes which given the way I roll for initiative is half the use I get out of it.
It doesn't help that asking and demanding can come accross as a little close. I know charisma isn't just a dump stat for our characters.
I really meant in the sense of a player saying to the GM, "The rules say X, so that's how it has to be played."
I didn't mean regular discussions/arguments/bribing sessions, etc. :)
Ah. Yes I've had that too. Player was angry over how some power of a 4E Shaman was adjudicated (the wording was vague and I went with a reasonably generous interpretation of it). Even after that he was constantly asking why it didn't work how he interpreted it to the point where the other players (including the Shaman player) told him to shut up or leave.
He left. No big loss.
It is the reason I only game with people I normally hang out with now. If you can't enjoy an evening of drinks and conversation with someone you'll never enjoy playing RPGs with them.
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I've had players treat me as if they're paying for my services and if they don't get exactly what they want, they throw a fit. Sadly there are people out there that do this kind of thing.
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I've seen all sides of this. Sometimes a very reasonable request or comment by a player (usually about rules) is rebuffed like it was some kind of death threat. Other times players can be whiny children crying that the dm is setting their favorite toy on fire.
In the end its usually about hte people more then the game. Somebody is letting their ego get in the way of fun.
Though I have occassionaly made demands of a GM, though to be fair, he started shackled city over 4 times. 4 TIMES, each time we got to about level 6 or 7 then the game stopped to play a new game (often a new system, this dm has a short attention span). And he always wanted to start fresh again, because it was a slightly different group and he wanted new characters to make sure the whole story was fresh. When he tried the 5th time we told him as a group he could start us where we left off the last time or run something else. Its probably the only time I demanded anything of a DM.
I really meant in the sense of a player saying to the GM, "The rules say X, so that's how it has to be played."
To be fair, this is often a legitimate complaint. If a player understands the game's rules and has come to expect that they will be followed, he can expect to make decisions based on those rules. If those rules are suddenly changed without giving him time to adjust to those changes, it's pretty hindering to him.
I've played 4e organized play events where the DM obviously didn't know the rules very well and, lo and behold, when a critical hit was rolled he demanded a confirmation roll. If you were player with a character focused heavily on critical hits, that's a pretty massive hit to your abilities, and you would be well within your rights to ask that the DM follow the rules of the game (especially in an organized play environment) or at the very least make those changes known well ahead of time so that you can make an informed decision not only on your character, but on whether you want to participate in the game as a whole (I find that changes like the above are often red flags that tend to coincide with many other objectionable behaviors on the part of the DM).
I really meant in the sense of a player saying to the GM, "The rules say X, so that's how it has to be played."To be fair, this is often a legitimate complaint. If a player understands the game's rules and has come to expect that they will be followed, he can expect to make decisions based on those rules. If those rules are suddenly changed without giving him time to adjust to those changes, it's pretty hindering to him.
I've played 4e organized play events where the DM obviously didn't know the rules very well and, lo and behold, when a critical hit was rolled he demanded a confirmation roll. If you were player with a character focused heavily on critical hits, that's a pretty massive hit to your abilities, and you would be well within your rights to ask that the DM follow the rules of the game (especially in an organized play environment) or at the very least make those changes known well ahead of time so that you can make an informed decision not only on your character, but on whether you want to participate in the game as a whole (I find that changes like the above are often red flags that tend to coincide with many other objectionable behaviors on the part of the DM).
True, except that there are ways to make a legitimate complaint heard for the betterment of all in an assertive but polite manner, and then there are ways to be snide, self-righteous, and snobbish with one's self-perceived "System Mastery".
It's an aspect of maturity for grown-ups to know how to talk to one another. ...and grown-ups forget the basics frequently (traffic snarls, softball games, U.S. Congress), never mind gamers of every age group and social background coming together to master a hobby they've invested hundreds of hours learning.
I really meant in the sense of a player saying to the GM, "The rules say X, so that's how it has to be played."
I didn't mean regular discussions/arguments/bribing sessions, etc. :)
I had a real hardline rules lawyer decide one time that he did not like the way we had played out a particularly complicated surprise encounter.
Though to this day I believe I had interpreted the rules correctly, considering all the complications in the encounter, he was persistent to the point of resetting all the minis on the table and insisting we play it again - his way.
Of course, his way turned out to be much more beneficial to him. Later, in another session, he argued for the opposite interpretation when that suited him.
I didn't play with him for very long.
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It's a straw man.Of course I'd expect someone like Shifty to make this claim.
Except I can't take credit as he had asked whether it was a straw man, all I was able to do was confirm it for him - alas I cannot take the credit given to me. I can however, of the two of us, take credit for actually reading the thread though, far preferable to making ad homs.
The 'or else' is having to put up with listening to the player act like a petulent child (ie begging, hassling, complaining, and having a big cry).
Though is that really an issue or a problem? May as well hold their breath til their faces turn blue - the power in the relationship resides with the GM who can just send them packing.
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Demanding anything in the middle of the game is bad form. Wait until the game session is over then raise the issue. In the middle of the game just accept what the GM says.
I think a lot of people forget that when they stop the game to argue with the GM, they are not only interrupting the GM's fun time, but the fun time of every other player.
What if the GM is interpreting the rules incorrectly to the point that it actually causes your character to die. Are you then allowed to stop everyone else's fun to try to get the rules to be applied correctly so that your enjoyment isn't destroyed unnecessarily?
Not always. There was a game store in a city I used to live in which provided tables as long as anyone was allowed to play.
Yes, but that doesn't mean they can play at the table you have to be running. They can huff and puff all they want, they can immediately be excluded from the game.
With regards to other people suggesting the GM could be at the petulant players house, I'd have to ask them why the GM had no idea of the players temperament BEFORE attending, which would have been enough to have avoided the situation in the first place.
What if the GM is interpreting the rules incorrectly to the point that it actually causes your character to die. Are you then allowed to stop everyone else's fun to try to get the rules to be applied correctly so that your enjoyment isn't destroyed unnecessarily?Demanding anything in the middle of the game is bad form. Wait until the game session is over then raise the issue. In the middle of the game just accept what the GM says.
I think a lot of people forget that when they stop the game to argue with the GM, they are not only interrupting the GM's fun time, but the fun time of every other player.
That's a tough one. Most of the time rules lawyering doesn't really involve life and death of a character directly. In that circumstance I would say a consulting of the rules would be warranted, just to keep piece of mind. Other circumstances can be changed after the session or can be glossed over easily. A character's death is too big for that sort of ease.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I've GM'd about 30 tables of PFS, spread across a couple of years. I don't think I've ever been "ordered around" by a player. On the contrary, I've had more than one table where a player has thanked me afterwards for being on top of things rules-wise.
Frequently, those same tables often have lots of roleplay (yes, even in PFS!), laughs, and just plain fun.
Fascinating correlation, isn't it? ;)
What if the GM is interpreting the rules incorrectly to the point that it actually causes your character to die. Are you then allowed to stop everyone else's fun to try to get the rules to be applied correctly so that your enjoyment isn't destroyed unnecessarily?Demanding anything in the middle of the game is bad form. Wait until the game session is over then raise the issue. In the middle of the game just accept what the GM says.
I think a lot of people forget that when they stop the game to argue with the GM, they are not only interrupting the GM's fun time, but the fun time of every other player.
This is the whole issue in a nut shell.
There IS a way past it, Trust your GM. And I suppose hope that your GM doesn't abuse that trust. I would probably play through the issue after only a brief protest and take it up in earnest with my GM as soon as the session ended. If my character was adversely affected by the situation AND my interpretation proved correct then I would ask that the matter be made right again in some way.
What if the GM is interpreting the rules incorrectly to the point that it actually causes your character to die. Are you then allowed to stop everyone else's fun to try to get the rules to be applied correctly so that your enjoyment isn't destroyed unnecessarily?This is the whole issue in a nut shell.
There IS a way past it, Trust your GM. And I suppose hope that your GM doesn't abuse that trust. I would probably play through the issue after only a brief protest and take it up in earnest with my GM as soon as the session ended. If my character was adversely affected by the situation AND my interpretation proved correct then I would ask that the matter be made right again in some way.
In this circumstance if I thought there was the faintest possibility the player was right and that my rules misinterpretation had killed their character unfairly, I'd try to find a way to put that character into, say, a coma rather than killing them, allowing us to resolve the matter of death after the session.
Of course there's then the knock-on issue of them being down leading to more deaths, in which case the chances are the rest of the table will be agreeable to pausing the game to check for the correct ruling because *nobody* really wants a TPK.
I admit I've never played PFS, but in my entire gaming career, I've never seen a player "demand" the GM do anything. Never ever ever.
So how often does this really happen? Or is this just the hypothetical straw-man for the sake of internet argument?
I've seen it. Once one player thinks they can get away with it, or gets used to trying to force their will, a problem is there until it is removed.
The best advice I can give a dm is to send that player away. Comedically, the example I've experienced of that was from a small guy with a Napoleon-like complex. He isn't missed.
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I've had players treat me as if they're paying for my services and if they don't get exactly what they want, they throw a fit. Sadly there are people out there that do this kind of thing.
Oh no. Not the entitled consumer mentality. My condolences.
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Gosh, the Paizo community sure is predictable...
what you are describing was not the store rules
I fail to see the problem here.
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I have demanded a few things from a DM as a player before. Things like, allowing the use of saving throws vs spells that list that the target gets a saving throw. When that was ignored, and the DM argued that a level 1 spell his NPC had cast worked like a level 7 spell, and had to DM fiat it, I chose the highway.
Good luck with 2 players and no healer!
I think a lot of people forget that when they stop the game to argue with the GM, they are not only interrupting the GM's fun time, but the fun time of every other player.
This!
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I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords.