MechE: Spell Perfection, lots of metamagic, a metamagic rod, and perhaps a sorcerer bloodline or two.
Doesn't the entry for Weapon Cords say it's a Swift action to recover a weapon?
Right but unless you have greater two weapon fighting you only need to get it back once
I prefer a glove of storing over a weapon cord myself.
A spellcaster can do 200-300 damage at those levels to DOZENS of targets WITHOUT AN ATTACK ROLL.Guess I've never seen an "optimized blaster" - how would one pull this off, exactly?
Also, I'm not really a huge fan of this FAQ. It seems there were other ways to go about fixing the root of the problem, and this one is fairly likely to cause other problems in the process of fixing one problem.
Ditto. I don't know that the FAQ really did anything to fix a problem, and may have introduced a platform for other problem.
Why do I say that? Well, the FAQ is really just restating a 'soft' rule that already exists. The likelihood is that the GMs who are already fairly limiting free actions on Gunslingers are going to go on doing so, the GMs who are getting ran over roughshod by the Gunslingers still don't have a 'hard' rule to point to and are still going to get railroaded by 'Tommy Gunslingers' - and then you'll have some GMs who will insist that this is a 'hard' rule, but they'll apply it across the board, leading to unintentional hindrance to the archer\crossbow crowd.
At the very least, the FAQ should explicitly mention that the FAQ was primarily to address balance issues with Gunslingers.
Personally, if the impetus for the FAQ was primarily balance with dual-wielding pistol 'slingers, I would rather see an FAQ or errata addressing specific mechanics changes to that style of character. As an example: Cap a Gunslinger to firing a number of shots per round equal to his BAB plus his DEX modifier. If he can do so while still having a couple of free actions left then he can reload his guns for the next round.
That's a fair point, Xaratherus. GMs who are going to neuter gunslingers with the free action limitation likely were already doing so.
And that's all well and good. Many of use just don't find their given examples to be reasonable ones.
I don't think the FAQ was intended to only address gunslingers.
I think it was intended to remind GM's that free actions are subject to common sense.
Oh the horror...
The "common sense" of a lot of different DM's can vary greatly and neuter a lot of abilities. I'm not that worried about this except as it applies to PFS, and then only when i have to DM for a gun slinger.
I admit that weapon cords are kinda' weird, but I don't dislike them.
Double-barreled firearms, on the other hand, I am still bewildered that those mechanics work the way they do.
Anything that lets you double your number of attacks is going to be broken.
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I admit that weapon cords are kinda' weird, but I don't dislike them.
Double-barreled firearms, on the other hand, I am still bewildered that those mechanics work the way they do.
Anything that lets you double your number of attacks is going to be broken.
Weapon cords are great. But now that they are applied to things not originally in the game when they were created, unintended consequences ensue.
When the Devs try to address this, a bunch of people throw a hissy fit because they are taking away something that was NEVER MEANT TO BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Or is anyone going to argue it was not an unintended consequence that the Devs are trying to address...
If the biggest concern about the FAQ is "Bad GMs who read this incorrectly and make bad choices and are generally not good at what they do results in a bad thing", then I'd say that such a concern applies to every rule in the book.So very much this.
Point 1: The FAQ actually does nothing to resolve the problem it was intended to resolve. SKR's statements indicate it was an attempt to curb an imbalance with TWF Gunslingers, but in fact all it really does is restate a rule that is either already being fairly applied, or already being ignored.
Point 2: There is a wide tendency among many GMs to look at 'examples' as 'rules'. For every GM who wasn't correctly limiting free actions already and will begin to do so because of this fAQ, there will be another GM (probably two, if my experience counts for anything) who takes the examples given in the FAQ and applies them as hard, universal caps (and thereby mucks up a lot of builds that weren't considered a problem in the first place).
You're correct when you state that a bad GM is going to make bad rulings no matter what. That doesn't mean the devs should go out of their way to give them more ammunition to make bad rulings - and especially not when the FAQ does literally nothing save restate a rule that already exists.
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Gunslingers being able to take all of their attacks in a full attack was never intended, Ciretose?
I'm not as familiar with the Gunslinger rules as I could be. What's preventing an appropriately-Feated Gunslinger from making all their attacks in a round with the same gun?
They have feats that apply so they can do at least 1 more than their BAB allows. If you limit them to three(2 if talking...), then they don't even get their fourth iterative at 16th level.
Gunslingers being able to take all of their attacks in a full attack was never intended, Ciretose?I'm not as familiar with the Gunslinger rules as I could be. What's preventing an appropriately-Feated Gunslinger from making all their attacks in a round with the same gun?
Reload times. Lack of free hands.
Gunslingers being able to take all of their attacks in a full attack was never intended, Ciretose?I'm not as familiar with the Gunslinger rules as I could be. What's preventing an appropriately-Feated Gunslinger from making all their attacks in a round with the same gun?
Let's say you have a pistol (normal pistol) and rapid reload and cartridge rounds.
That lets you reload as a free action.
However, if you follow the FAQ as suggested, your gunslinger can't fire a fourth attack in a round when his BAB = 16. Despite being a full BAB class.
If you have (again normal pistol) gunslinger who took the two weapon fighting feat, rapid reload, and cartridge rounds, he could get 1 extra attack per round. Main pistol, off-hand pistol, drop off-hand pistol, reload main pistol, fire, lather rinse repeat. So this would let him normally get +1 attack per round for taking a -2 to hit. But now, this build maxes out at 3 hits at level 6.
Gunslingers being able to take all of their attacks in a full attack was never intended, Ciretose?I'm not as familiar with the Gunslinger rules as I could be. What's preventing an appropriately-Feated Gunslinger from making all their attacks in a round with the same gun?
A GM who thinks the "fix" for gunslingers has finally come down, and it is this FAQ. 3 reloads for you!
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Gunslingers being able to take all of their attacks in a full attack was never intended, Ciretose?Define "all of their attacks"
Because clearly that is where the disconnect and the issues come in.
BAB 1-5 : 1 (+1 for Dual Wield)
BAB 6-10 : 2 (+1 for Dual Wield)BAB 11-15 : 3 (+1 for Dual Wield)
BAB 16-20 : 4 (+1 for Dual Wield)
Same as :
Longbow Ranger :
BAB 1-5 : 1 (+1 for Rapidshot)
BAB 6-10 : 2 (+1 for Rapidshot)
BAB 11-15 : 3 (+1 for Rapidshot)
BAB 16-20 : 4 (+1 for Rapidshot)
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They have feats that apply so they can do at least 1 more than their BAB allows. If you limit them to three(2 if talking...), then they don't even get their fourth iterative at 16th level.Reload times. Lack of free hands.Because clearly that is where the disconnect and the issues come in.Yeah, this is what I'm not understanding. I assume Reload times is taken care of by Rapid Reload or whatever.
I understand that this FAQ if applied unfairly would limit the maximum attacks they can make, but Ciretose only seemed to be objecting to an issue with weapon cords. Are we all talking about different things here?
Assuming sufficient free actions, what's preventing a Gunslinger from reloading his same weapon enough times to fire it his full allotted attack?
The lack of a free hand.
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Gunslingers being able to take all of their attacks in a full attack was never intended, Ciretose?Define "all of their attacks"
Because clearly that is where the disconnect and the issues come in.
BAB 1-5 : 1 (+1 for Dual Wield)
BAB 6-10 : 2 (+1 for Dual Wield)
BAB 11-15 : 3 (+1 for Dual Wield)
BAB 16-20 : 4 (+1 for Dual Wield)Same as :
Longbow Ranger :
BAB 1-5 : 1 (+1 for Rapidshot)
BAB 6-10 : 2 (+1 for Rapidshot)
BAB 11-15 : 3 (+1 for Rapidshot)
BAB 16-20 : 4 (+1 for Rapidshot)
Perfect illustration.
They have feats that apply so they can do at least 1 more than their BAB allows. If you limit them to three(2 if talking...), then they don't even get their fourth iterative at 16th level.Reload times. Lack of free hands.Because clearly that is where the disconnect and the issues come in.Yeah, this is what I'm not understanding. I assume Reload times is taken care of by Rapid Reload or whatever.
I understand that this FAQ if applied unfairly would limit the maximum attacks they can make, but Ciretose only seemed to be objecting to an issue with weapon cords. Are we all talking about different things here?
Assuming sufficient free actions, what's preventing a Gunslinger from reloading his same weapon enough times to fire it his full allotted attack?
Nothing, the problem arises because this FAQ could easily be read to disallow enough free actions to allow a full attack.
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A GM who thinks the "fix" for gunslingers has finally come down, and it is this FAQ. 3 reloads for you!Gunslingers being able to take all of their attacks in a full attack was never intended, Ciretose?I'm not as familiar with the Gunslinger rules as I could be. What's preventing an appropriately-Feated Gunslinger from making all their attacks in a round with the same gun?
3 to 5 :)
The lack of a free hand.
BAB = 16, one pistol, free hand, Rapid Reload, Cartridges, still can't fire 4th iterative attack.
BAB = 11-15, one pistol, free hand, Rapid Reload, Cartridges, Haste, still can't fire Haste attack.
Perhaps this is the disconnect you mentioned? You're not getting this part?
3 to 5 :)A GM who thinks the "fix" for gunslingers has finally come down, and it is this FAQ. 3 reloads for you!Gunslingers being able to take all of their attacks in a full attack was never intended, Ciretose?I'm not as familiar with the Gunslinger rules as I could be. What's preventing an appropriately-Feated Gunslinger from making all their attacks in a round with the same gun?
The FAQ said '5 is a good limit, or 3 if the same action'. Not the same thing at all.
3 to 5 :)A GM who thinks the "fix" for gunslingers has finally come down, and it is this FAQ. 3 reloads for you!Gunslingers being able to take all of their attacks in a full attack was never intended, Ciretose?I'm not as familiar with the Gunslinger rules as I could be. What's preventing an appropriately-Feated Gunslinger from making all their attacks in a round with the same gun?
One can only hope they will be so generous. :)
Perfect illustration.
So, you agree then, limiting it to 3 breaks this rule logic.
Perhaps this is the disconnect you mentioned? You're not getting this part?I was the one not getting something, not Ciretose. I understand the Free Action limitation bit, but see above - something about weapon cords and marionette gunslingers is involved?
Gunslingers can dual wield and use two weapon fighting with their weapons. You use a weapon string to get a free hand. Drop weapon, fire your iterative from your first weapon, pick up the other with your weapon cord, drop the first weapon, fire iterative with your second. Without any feats this is 16 bullets at level 16.
Perhaps this is the disconnect you mentioned? You're not getting this part?I was the one not getting something, not Ciretose. I understand the Free Action limitation bit, but see above - something about weapon cords and marionette gunslingers is involved?
It's not even weapon cords, but here goes.
Left Pistol (Corded) Right Pistol (Corded)
Fire Left
Fire Right
Drop Left (Free action!)
Reload Right (Free Action!)
Fire Right
Reload Right (Free Action!)
Fire Right
Reload Right (Free Action!)
Drop Right (Free Action!)
Retrieve Left (Swift Action!)
Reload Left (Free Action!)
Now, that's with single barrel pistols.
The issue was the Double Barrel Pistols.
Fire Left (A)
Fire Left (B)
Fire Right (A)
Fire Right (B)
Drop Left (Free action!)
Reload Right (A) (Free action!)
Reload Right (B) (Free action!)
Fire Right (A)
Fire Right (B)
Reload Right (A) (Free action!)
Reload Right (B) (Free action!)
Fire Right (A)
Fire Right (B)
Reload Right (A) (Free action!)
Reload Right (B) (Free action!)
Drop Right (Free Action!)
Retrieve Left (Swift)
Reload Left (A)
Reload Left (B)
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The FAQ said '5 is a good limit, or 3 if the same action'. Not the same thing at all.3 to 5 :)A GM who thinks the "fix" for gunslingers has finally come down, and it is this FAQ. 3 reloads for you!Gunslingers being able to take all of their attacks in a full attack was never intended, Ciretose?I'm not as familiar with the Gunslinger rules as I could be. What's preventing an appropriately-Feated Gunslinger from making all their attacks in a round with the same gun?
It also said it was a guideline.
The FAQ was meant to address the abuse of free actions in many forms, one of which is the firearms issue, specifically the dropping as a free action to reload cheese.
If you have pre-loaded revolver, you can fire to your attack bonus.
It is the reloading as a free action with a trick to have a free hand that isn't actually free that is an issue.
Are guns (and crossbows) harder to load than bows.
Yes.
Are there options where they are pre-loaded for both.
Yes.
Can you fire and load one handed.
Yes.
The goal of the FAQ was to tell GMs "You don't have to allow things that seem cheesy. We aren't going to go over every possible scenario that some dude on the messageboard came up with one by one, but 3 to 5 free actions is a good rule of thumb."
I don't think Ciretose or anyone in the thread is arguing that 3 free actions is a reasonable limit under normal circumstances.
Then the FAQ needs to be modified, yes?
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No, because it says it is a guideline, not a rule.I don't think Ciretose or anyone in the thread is arguing that 3 free actions is a reasonable limit under normal circumstances.Then the FAQ needs to be modified, yes?
It might be nice though if it at least didn't say guns should get 3 shots, 2 when talking.
It also said it was a guideline.
A guideline that breaks the class for a dirt standard build (one pistol) at level 16.
The FAQ was meant to address the abuse of free actions in many forms, one of which is the firearms issue, specifically the dropping as a free action to reload cheese.
Then it really should have addressed that. Instead, it just opened a big can of worms and broke core mechanics if it's followed.
If you have pre-loaded revolver, you can fire to your attack bonus.
Advanced firearm. Which you can still do the cord juggle with, by rules. Since reloading a revolver is a move action (which becomes a free action with rapid reload). So, twin revolvers, reload 2 times a round each round to always be full. So, again, the FAQ isn't addressing the underlying issue.
It is the reloading as a free action with a trick to have a free hand that isn't actually free that is an issue.
See revolver response.
Are guns (and crossbows) harder to load than bows.Yes.
Yes, and a hand crossbow, with rapid reload, can be fired as fast as you can pull the lever. In fact, you can still juggle the hand crossbows like the dual wielding pistol was doing, since the dev said it was only for gunslinger. Yes? Or the FAQ applies to the hand crossbow, and someone with a perfectly legal build can't take more than 3 attacks a round, despite 16+ BAB, yes?
Are there options where they are pre-loaded for both.Yes.
Preload yes. Firing your full BAB iteratives, not any more. Repeating crossbow is an option, but revolvers are not, given they are advanced firearms. Again, hurts gunslinger at high levels but not crossbow fighters, or archers. And still doesn't address the issue of juggling in the case of the hand crossbows (given they can be on weapon cords too).
The goal of the FAQ was to tell GMs "You don't have to allow things that seem cheesy. We aren't going to go over every possible scenario that some dude on the messageboard came up with one by one, but 3 to 5 free actions is a good rule of thumb."
And yet, the dev said the real issue for the FAQ was the weapon juggling, which wasn't really addressed...
Only if it was a set rule, which it isn't. I think that it could potentially lead to a problem if too many GMs actually implement this incorrectly, but I think the likelihood of that actually happening on such a scale is lower than some others seem to.Then the FAQ needs to be modified, yes?
I don't think Ciretose or anyone in the thread is arguing that 3 free actions is a reasonable limit under normal circumstances.
My concern is less that (I don't play PFS, and PFS judges tend to take 'suggestions' as 'etched in stone!'), but just it's a bad precedent to have a 'clarification' that basically comes down as saying 'Nerf this base class'. Not stop the juggling issue, which is a real issue, but by the FAQ as written, nerf firearms at 16+.
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The FAQ said '5 is a good limit, or 3 if the same action'. Not the same thing at all.3 to 5 :)A GM who thinks the "fix" for gunslingers has finally come down, and it is this FAQ. 3 reloads for you!Gunslingers being able to take all of their attacks in a full attack was never intended, Ciretose?I'm not as familiar with the Gunslinger rules as I could be. What's preventing an appropriately-Feated Gunslinger from making all their attacks in a round with the same gun?It also said it was a guideline.
The FAQ was meant to address the abuse of free actions in many forms, one of which is the firearms issue, specifically the dropping as a free action to reload cheese.
If you have pre-loaded revolver, you can fire to your attack bonus.
It is the reloading as a free action with a trick to have a free hand that isn't actually free that is an issue.
Are guns (and crossbows) harder to load than bows.
Yes.
Are there options where they are pre-loaded for both.
Yes.
Can you fire and load one handed.
Yes.
The goal of the FAQ was to tell GMs "You don't have to allow things that seem cheesy. We aren't going to go over every possible scenario that some dude on the messageboard came up with one by one, but 3 to 5 free actions is a good rule of thumb."
The problem people are having is that the need to address gunslinger craziness is not spelled out inthe FAQ. 18 months from now when some new GM reads this FAQ in isolation, without the context of current forum posts on the topic, they are VERY likely to think this guideline is meant to limit the number of ranged attacks per round to 3 (because reload is a "same" action called out in this FAQ) and they will not have any reason to believe that gun reloading is special from bows or crossbows, but was simply the example chosen. That is a problem.