Do dead bodies create problems in combat? (how I generally rule...)

[Rycaut]

So I have a personal rule that I generally use (and always tell players about when running PFS) which I think is fine to use but I figure I should double check it here.

When small or larger creatures (including players but not summoned creatures or swarms) fall on the battlefield I don't remove their minis or markers and I rule that the square(s) they were in when they fell are effectively difficult terrain (technically enforcing rules about squeezing might be the most accurate but also more difficult to easily handle for everyone). I modify this in one respect - if you are larger than the creature (i.e. a large creature stepping on a medium or small creature or a medium stepping on a small) you can ignore this difficult terrain.

In general players don't typically mind this (other than a few who just habitually remove enemies and expect to always be able to 5 foot step into the downed enemy's square). I find that it is a simple rule, helps keep enemies on the battlemap in case of things like channels and it frequently leads to slightly more tactical combats without overly penalizing players.

(further it makes feats, spells or magic items that allow the player to ignore difficult terrain all the more valuable - I always like letting players feel like their feats, spells or magic items are getting them a chance to shine)

I don't think there is anything explicitly in the rules about how to treat dead/dying bodies (other than as I noted perhaps the rules about squeezing) so I think i'm ok in playing this way as a PFS GM.

It also leads to really fun cinematic moments when large creatures die but their bodies remain - you get players doing things like climbing up on dead foes to try to reach foes just out of reach etc. Overall I've generally been really happy with the effects of this simple practice in play.

[Artoo]

PRD - Combat Section wrote:

Moving Through a Square

You can move through an unoccupied square without difficulty in most circumstances. Difficult terrain and a number of spell effects might hamper your movement through open spaces.

...

Opponent: You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.

While that's somewhat open to interpretation it's really pushing it to say a medium or small sized creature would cause a square to become difficult terrain. Remember, each square on a map is 5ftx5ft a single unconscious medium sized creature will not occupy all of that space. Conscious characters occupy that much space because it's assumed they're moving around quite a bit in the middle of a fight.

When you're dealing with larger creatures it certainly make sense to start apply that and the rules even explicitly call it out, but that's the exception, not the rule.

Edit: Added bolding to quote.

[FurtiveZoog]

I do like your idea of downed and dead bodies cluttering up the battlefield, and always thought it was strange when, like in video games, the dead bodies magically evaporate... But, I guess the rules want to keep it simple. :-\

As a medium sized creature myself, I take up considerably more than 5' in one direction and about a third of the space in the other, and it gets more complicated if there are arms (and armaments) and legs all akimbo. Someone stepping into my 5' square would at least have to watch where they trying to step. Add in gruesome but realistic details - like slippery blood on flagstone - and it could be difficult terrain, indeed, IMO.

In any event, keeping dying opponents around and paying attention to their statuses, while cumbersome, does make selective channeling much more critical.

[nosig]

Rycaut wrote:

So I have a personal rule that I generally use (and always tell players about when running PFS) which I think is fine to use but I figure I should double check it here.

When small or larger creatures (including players but not summoned creatures or swarms) fall on the battlefield I don't remove their minis or markers and I rule that the square(s) they were in when they fell are effectively difficult terrain (technically enforcing rules about squeezing might be the most accurate but also more difficult to easily handle for everyone). I modify this in one respect - if you are larger than the creature (i.e. a large creature stepping on a medium or small creature or a medium stepping on a small) you can ignore this difficult terrain.

In general players don't typically mind this (other than a few who just habitually remove enemies and expect to always be able to 5 foot step into the downed enemy's square). I find that it is a simple rule, helps keep enemies on the battlemap in case of things like channels and it frequently leads to slightly more tactical combats without overly penalizing players.

(further it makes feats, spells or magic items that allow the player to ignore difficult terrain all the more valuable - I always like letting players feel like their feats, spells or magic items are getting them a chance to shine)

I don't think there is anything explicitly in the rules about how to treat dead/dying bodies (other than as I noted perhaps the rules about squeezing) so I think i'm ok in playing this way as a PFS GM.

It also leads to really fun cinematic moments when large creatures die but their bodies remain - you get players doing things like climbing up on dead foes to try to reach foes just out of reach etc. Overall I've generally been really happy with the effects of this simple practice in play.

In a home game this would not be a problem - other than the fact that it is more likely to effect PCs than monsters.

That's because Monsters are more likely to be larger than the PCs than the PCs larger than the Monsters...

Also, it could be argued that a smaller creature might move thru a space more easily than a large creature - as a big person who has tripped over kids sleeping in a camp I can say this for sure (boyscout camp out...).

But heck, if you point it out to the players before the game, and you realize that it is a "House Rule" I could live with it. Just realize that some people would have a problem... and in PFS you really shouldn't enforce House Rules.

[BigNorseWolf]

Melee types already have enough problems being able to charge and move through stuff.

Just save the bodies for hillarious descriptions of misses.

[Azothath]

Rycaut wrote:

... I rule that the square(s) they were in when they fell are effectively difficult terrain... If you are larger than the creature (i.e. a large creature stepping on a medium or small creature or a medium stepping on a small) you can ignore this difficult terrain.

It's nice, but I think you are going to run into trouble.

Once they are unconscious they are helpless and you can move through their square unopposed.
Once they are dead they are objects.

If they could fill half of a square then it should move to difficult terrain. That's 5x5x2.5ft, which means large(8-16ft) size or bigger. If we scale people up (body proportions) 1.6->18"x2=36"(not wide enough at large), 36"x2=64"(exceeds 5ft at huge). So huge humanoids are going to create difficult terrain where they fall, but not that much compared to their reach.

Acrobatics(Jump)(certainly) or Climb may play a role in bypassing the issue.

[Rycaut]

Seems like the movement rules support my interpretation for large or bigger creatures but not for small or mediums - I'll probably just enforce the difficult terrain rule when size large or bigger creatures die in battle and only for smaller creatures if there is something else that would create difficult terrain.

I do still plan on enforcing the keep all dead creatures on the battle map (or at least use death markers) - I've always liked having the players see the results of combats and have more of a sense of what has happened around them.

(re above if a lot of creatures were to die in the same square I might rule it difficult terrain - but typically by then the battle would be over so it won't matter as much)

In PFS play I haven't seen much negative impact from how I have handled this in the past - players adjust their tactics (and yes I have enforced it for NPCs as well which occasionally has meant they haven't been able to make full attacks) and many players already have ways to deal with difficult terrain (nimble steps, feather step slippers, spells or at higher levels they are air walking or flying already)

[Kyle Baird]

Peopld need to stop making it harder to play than it already is.

[Mergy]

I'm pretty sure only a large corpse creates difficult terrain, but I don't have something to cite at my fingertips.

[Darius Silverbolt]

Honesty I have never bothered with this. Once they are dead I take them off the field to keep play simple.

[Azothath]

Stephen Ross wrote:

<analysis>

I think for ease of play you can generally ignore fallen bodies.

The bodies aren't going to create very many squares of difficult terrain (1-2 at large, 3-6 at huge) and the DCs to get around them are going to be low(Acrobatics DC10). So it will only be a factor where you have a lot of bodies in a confined area (battlefield).

[JohnF]

Kyle Baird wrote:

People need to stop making it harder to play than it already is.

This.

For small or medium creatures, the rules are already pretty clear - for PFS, dead (or simply helpless) creatures present no obstacle to movement. Although for larger creatures the rules do allow for the possibility of them being treated as difficult terrain, I'd much rather not see an opportunity for table variation. If one GM rules that a dead yeti in the way makes it harder for you to climb into the escape pod, while another GM lets you stroll unhindered across the corpse of the gigantic dragon your party just vanquished, I don't see how that is good for PFS, which strives to give a uniform play experience worldwide.

[Illeist]

John Francis wrote:

[...]Although for larger creatures the rules do allow for the possibility of them being treated as difficult terrain, I'd much rather not see an opportunity for table variation. If one GM rules that a dead yeti in the way makes it harder for you to climb into the escape pod, while another GM lets you stroll unhindered across the corpse of the gigantic dragon your party just vanquished, I don't see how that is good for PFS, which strives to give a uniform play experience worldwide.

Where is this possibility in the rules? Because I've looked several times and never found it.

As far as global rules uniformity, I totally agree. There's not really much question on how to implement it, though: you play (and run) by the rules as they are written.

To the OP: Don't introduce house rules into PFS. That's basically the end of the story.

[JohnF]

It was quoted upthread in the first response to the OP.

It's from Chapter 8 of the CRB, which is about Combat. In particular it's in the section on Movement and Distance, subsection "Moving Through a Square", in the paragraph talking about moving through a square occupied by an opponent (p193, about half-way down the first column).

[Dhjika]

Darius Silverbolt wrote:

Honesty I have never bothered with this. Once they are dead I take them off the field to keep play simple.

Unfortunately that means when the cleric or paladin starts channelling they don't know who they have the select not to affect.

Bodies or mark an online on the map, need to be in place so those decisions can more easily be made as to the placement of the characters and how many he can select.

[Illeist]

John Francis wrote:

It was quoted upthread in the first response to the OP.

It's from Chapter 8 of the CRB, which is about Combat. In particular it's in the section on Movement and Distance, subsection "Moving Through a Square", in the paragraph talking about moving through a square occupied by an opponent (p193, about half-way down the first column).

Once a creature is dead, it's neither helpless nor an opponent. It's not targeted by spells or effects that target creatures. It doesn't use any other rules and conditions relevant to living creatures. Why would you apply the rules for helpless creatures to a dead body when it's neither helpless nor a creature?

[Jiggy]

Because there isn't a rule explicitly for how a dead body affects terrain, and part of good GMing is using the most appropriate related rule you can think of.

In the absence of a rule stating how to treat a 12 CON creature who has reached –12 HP and become an object, a reasonable adjudication is to treat it about the same as the rules explicitly treated it six seconds ago when it was at –11 HP.

[JohnF]

As has been frequently pointed out, the rules are meant to be read with at least a minimal amount of common sense. Anyone who could seriously suggest that a creature that was lying on the ground helpless and dying (at which point it presented no obstacle to movement) mysteriously acquires the ability to impede passage once the moment of death is reached seems to be failing to meet that requirement.

[Thorkull]

I just ignore the dead bodies. A lot of miniatures are already too large for their squares and trying to keep the dead bad guys on the map just clutters it up unnecessarily.

Kyle Baird wrote:

Peopld need to stop making it harder to play than it already is.

QFT

[Thorkull]

Dhjika wrote:

Darius Silverbolt wrote:

Honesty I have never bothered with this. Once they are dead I take them off the field to keep play simple.

Unfortunately that means when the cleric or paladin starts channelling they don't know who they have the select not to affect.

Bodies or mark an online on the map, need to be in place so those decisions can more easily be made as to the placement of the characters and how many he can select.

I've never had a problem with the cleric saying "Oh, and I exclude the two guys that are down," presuming they have enough Charisma for Selective Channel to do so. Marking their precise locations is seldom critical for that, and if it is, I can remember well enough where they dropped.

[Mergy]

Quote:

Opponent: You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.

This part, when combined with the bit about obstacles, leads me to believe that a fallen ogre would count as difficult terrain.

[Rycaut]

As I noted I will now just do this for large or bigger creatures where they make sense that they would hinder movement. I will also note however that my players (and I've run for a lot of them now) all seem to both adjust quickly and often enjoy the tactical implications - and not infrequently use them to their own advantage (maneuvering behind a dead large creature to make it harder for an enemy to five foot step and full attack for example.

I also do frequently run for tables of fairly skilled and optimized players - who frequently want challenges (they often played up when that was an option for example) so adding slight tactical challenges is something they appreciate - especially when it is very easy for them to adjust to and manage.

(i.e. everyone pretty much knows how to deal with difficult terrain - and in most maps for PFS they have options. I'd note that in most PFS scenarios there is already a lot of table variation since in many scenarios the exact location of the enemies in a given room isn't given so tactics will vary considerably from table to table. I've also noticed that in many cases player sand gms alike don't make full use of the terrain and room features - however whenever I have emphasized the full 3D environment of a given scenario - and tried to use that (within the tactics given for the monsters) it generally enhances the scenario and overall experience.

(in some scenarios doing this makes what seemed like a simple encounter more challenging - in others leveraging the terrain gives the players opportunities for advantages that may balance out a seemingly too hard encounter)

[Strenella Alesia]

Usually, with my gory finish feat, the bodies are in small enough pieces that they don't present an obstacle. It's great! When the other opponents, showered in blood, flee in abject terror or beg for mercy I am satisfied I have guided people to reconsidering their life and finding their beauty within.

May Sheyln guide in finding your inner special beauty, as she has done for me.

Strenella Alesia Lywellyn

[JohnF]

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

Quote:

Opponent: You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.

This part, when combined with the bit about obstacles, leads me to believe that a fallen ogre would count as difficult terrain.

Well, it could count as difficult terrain. But that gets into the whole 'how large is very large?' discussion, which is an invitation for table variation. I prefer to just handwave it most of the time. Sure, that's unrealistic, but so is the rule that you don't get cover from a pile of dead bards, no matter how many of them there are.

[Rycaut]

Actually there isn't, as far as I know a rule that you don't get cover from a pile of dead bards. Logically a prone opponent (or ally) won't provide a standing creature cover (unless they are very very big) but a pile of dead bodies - perhaps it would just have to be a really big pile.

As a DM I would generally rule in favor of fun and a smooth table. Occasionally it makes sense for a massive pile of bodies to have a lasting effect (the tank keep locking enemies down to the same square and they keep dying there - eventually it might have an impact)

In terms of large creatures I think most large or bigger creatures should probably create difficult terrain when dead - think about quickly moving around a dead horse or camel or elephant.

A few squares of difficult terrain generally don't slow down pcs or enemies much but they do make for a changing tactical situation. As I've noted mostly I think for the better experience (but then I both like figuring out tactics and typically make sure my characters can deal with difficult terrain)

[Sir_Wulf]

I have always extrapolated from the rule regarding helpless creatures, saying that the remains of size large (or larger) creatures form difficult terrain, but that the remains of smaller creatures aren't significant obstacles (unless piled several deep).

Hopefully, heaps of dead bards don't come along often enough to be a regular issue.