My level 5 Bard is going to be investing in a Scroll of Fireball as our party lacks any good AoE, and I have some gold to spend. I realize that there are two different types of scrolls for this spell (the Wizard version and the Sorcerer version), and what I want to know is what rolls I would have to succeed at to cast them and the difference in damage output if any.
Here are my Bard's relevant stats and equipment:
Int 12
Cha 18
Chain Shirt (20% ASFC)
Heavy Steel Shield (15% ASFC)
UMD 12 (4 Cha + 5 ranks + 3 class skill bonus)
Now if I am reading the UMD skill correctly, since Bards do not have Fireball on their spell lists I will have to use UMD in order to cast from the scroll. I will list two scenarios (one for the Wizard version, the other for Sorcerer) and would appreciate pointing out anything I miss.
Wizard:
Cost 375g (3rd level spell x 5th level caster x 25gp)
Ability Requirement Int >= 13 (3rd level spell)
UMD DC = 23 (20 + 3rd level spell)
Spell save DC = 14 (10 + Int 13 bonus of 1 + 3rd level spell)
Seeing as I do not have the Int to cast the spell, I need to use UMD to emulate that ability score. Since my effective ability score is UMD-15 I believe that would require a DC of 28 to accomplish. Should I manage that, I would then have to successfully use the scroll with a UMD DC of 23. Should THAT succeed, I then have to factor in my armor (35% ASFC) and roll a d20 getting higher than a 7. If the one of the first two rolls fails, I keep the scroll but lose my action. If the last one fails, the scroll is consumed and the spell fails. If I succeed at all 3 rolls, I cast a Fireball of caster level 5 at my target and they get to make a Reflex save with a DC of 14 to avoid half the damage.
Sorcerer:
Cost 450g (3rd level spell x 7th level caster x 25gp)
Ability Requirement Cha >= 13 (3rd level spell)
UMD DC = 23 (20 + 3rd level spell)
Spell save DC = 14 (10 + Cha 13 bonus of 1 + 3rd level spell)
In this case, I do meet the ability requirement to cast the spell and do not have to make a roll to emulate it. This should allow me to only have to make the last two rolls (UMD check to cast, ASFC check to not fail). Again these would have DCs of 23 and 7 respectively like the Wizard version. If it successfully casts, the Fireball would be at a caster level of 7 with the same Reflex DC of 14.
If all of this is correct, is there any reason for me not to buy the Sorcerer version for 175g more since it would be a) easier to cast and b) do more damage?
Sorcerer can cast fireball at 6th level, but your price of 450gp is correct (3 x 7 x 25 would have cost 525 if you made it at 7th caster level).
If you pay 450 for the scroll, you will cast it at CL 6, not CL 7.
The rest of what you wrote looks correct, off the top of my head.
Have you considered getting a wand of Fireball instead?
3 x 5 x 750 = 11,250gp. A bit pricey at low levels, but here are the benefits:
1. No Armor Check Failure when you use it.
2. UMD check is only DC 20 and it's the only roll you have to make.
3. 50 charges (compare to 22,500, exactly double the price, for 50 scrolls).
4. No worry about whether a sorcerer or wizard made the wand (but wizard make them at 5th level which is the pricepoint I indicated above).
So, if you really want to be the AOE for this group, and you plan to do it more than 25 times over your entire career, the wand is the cost effective solution AND the least prone to failure.
If your GM allows you to have access to that scroll made by a sorcerer, you should buy it.
Some settings, like PFS play, limit the source of items. In PFS, you have to buy the wizard, cleric or druid version, unless the spells are not on their lists.
DM_Blake wrote: Sorcerer can cast fireball at 6th level, but your price of 450gp is correct (3 x 7 x 25 would have cost 525 if you made it at 7th caster level).
If you pay 450 for the scroll, you will cast it at CL 6, not CL 7.
Ah yes, for some reason I was thinking of the spell progression of Bards being equal to Sorcerer (we get 3rd level spells at 7, wasn't thinking about the math). Still, it seems that the Sorcerer version is far superior for my current needs and abilities.
A Wand of Fireball or some other AoE spell will likely be on my wishlist for later levels. At the moment, I just want a one shot item to help should we get swarmed by a whole buttload of mooks (we're currently taking down and infiltrating a fort with a lot of soldiers and I want a backup plan should they turn on us).
A couple things off....
UMD DC = 20 + caster level, so that's DC 25 and 26 for wizard and sorcerer respectively. (Scrolls are hard!)
However, I don't believe it matters which class made the scroll - I believe you can use Int or Cha, regardless of the creator. Use Magic Device only references ("the appropriate ability"), and the description of scroll use in general says "The user must have the requisite ability score." Scrolls are otherwise only arcane or divine. Check with your GM on that.
Majuba wrote: A couple things off....
UMD DC = 20 + caster level, so that's DC 25 and 26 for wizard and sorcerer respectively. (Scrolls are hard!)
However, I don't believe it matters which class made the scroll - I believe you can use Int or Cha, regardless of the creator. Use Magic Device only references ("the appropriate ability"), and the description of scroll use in general says "The user must have the requisite ability score." Scrolls are otherwise only arcane or divine. Check with your GM on that.
You are correct about the UMD DC using caster level. I'll just have to burn some performance rounds and Inspire some Competence to help with that check (pretty sure I could use it on myself). When "the appropriate ability" is being referenced, it very much does depend on who made the scroll. Quote: [Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells).]
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"A bard can't inspire competence in himself." Sorry about that.
DesolateHarmony wrote: If your GM allows you to have access to that scroll made by a sorcerer, you should buy it.
Some settings, like PFS play, limit the source of items. In PFS, you have to buy the wizard, cleric or druid version, unless the spells are not on their lists.
On the other hand, it's hard to justify the creation of a sorcerer NPC who's made the effort to learn scroll writing for the following reasons.
1. Sorcerers don't have to pick thier spells, they can cast whatever they know as long as they have slots.
2. Sorcerers can not make scrolls of spells they do not know. This requirement can not be bypassed as per the magic item creation rules which specifically call scrolls out on this.
Zaister wrote: "A bard can't inspire competence in himself." Sorry about that. Blast! Failure to read to the end of a paragraph foils me again.
LazarX wrote: DesolateHarmony wrote: If your GM allows you to have access to that scroll made by a sorcerer, you should buy it.
Some settings, like PFS play, limit the source of items. In PFS, you have to buy the wizard, cleric or druid version, unless the spells are not on their lists.
On the other hand, it's hard to justify the creation of a sorcerer NPC who's made the effort to learn scroll writing for the following reasons.
1. Sorcerers don't have to pick thier spells, they can cast whatever they know as long as they have slots.
2. Sorcerers can not make scrolls of spells they do not know. This requirement can not be bypassed as per the magic item creation rules which specifically call scrolls out on this. My GM is a bit more relaxed in that sense. There are a lot of traveling merchants going in and out of this town (which we are in for the next month). It could be feasible that a Sorcerer in a nearby city sold a scroll to one of them which found its way to me.
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