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As I tend to run a lot of complicated fights, the final one of the last session involved 20-ish combatants and a burning ship, I tend to give the players about a minute if they need to ask a question or make a complicated move. And I will pull the plug, (well, bump a character back in the initiative order) if a player stalls. I will admit to shortening the time for more experienced players, but they often have the intricate things they want to accomplish.
In the above instance, a Spring Attack oriented Ftr ran onto the ship, burst through a wall of flame (burning sail), bull-rushed a foe to seize a fallen comrade and dive out a missing wall. This is followed by the Ranger shooting a rope arrow for the Ftr to be pulled to shore with, then things got complicated. Even with a minute, there was no way to do this fast. I felt bad for the newby Sorcerer that was using bull strength to 'land' the Ftr. "I pull Shawn to shore" round after round. Granted, she directly saved two lives (Shawn was -18 on his Swim skill), but...
That looks fine.
The time limit doesn't apply to completing all the actions, or the fallout from those actions (I wouldn't ding a player because his fireball provoked 20 saving throws in a packed room).The player simply has to begin describing his actions, and start moving.
Sometimes the results of that action will provoke AoO, or require a skill check, and these could affect the ability to carry out the further parts of the plan. Sometimes an extra-special skill check result or attack roll will open up more possibilities than existed before (eg unexpectedly dropping an enemy, with your first attack in a full attack routine, frees you up to move away, something you wouldn't have done till the moment arrives.).
If that happens, the player should roll with it, and make further decisions based on the rolling situation.
That's why I think players get far too wrapped up in trying to predict the outcome of the whole round, and get themselves tied in knots with conditional phrases and contingency plans, none of which are needed or helpful.
You do not need to tell the GM "I climb up the rigging, knock the sailor onto the deck below, and then cast a swift ray spell, unless I don't drop him, in which case, I'll cast this swift buff, but if I don't make it up the rigging, then I'll have to run round the deck to the stairs, and fight the other sailor at the top, but only if I can get past the first guy in the way, and he doesn't hit me with an AoO, in which case I'll defensively cast a cure...".
You're not helping anyone, by nesting contingencies inside contingencies, inside contingencies.
Your action, your responsibility as a player is that within the time limit, you say:
"I climb up the rigging."
IF you make the Climb check, the GM will tell you "You make it to the sailor". You then say "I attempt to shove him off.".
IF you're successful, you say what you do with your remaining swift or immediate, which may have changed if someone else interrupted the flow with an action you couldn't have predicted, such as casting feather fall on the falling sailor.
"Well I was saving the swift ray for that other guy, but I'll shoot the falling sailor instead, so he doesn't land next to my ally and mess up their plans."
IF you don't make the initial Climb check, THEN is the time to say, "I'll forget that, and run for the stairs, by this route."
Play progresses from there.
IF you're cut by an AoO, THEN is the time to change your action to a cure.
IF you make it up the stairs, is the time to tell the GM what you intend to do up there,....etc.
Don't complicate the game, by providing a list of contingent possibilities. Say what your character is doing, RIGHT NOW.
Apart from anything else, other characters present can only decide to interrupt or not, based on what they see you doing, not what you've declared you intend to do later. (This goes both ways, for players interrupting NPCs.) Very important if you haven't activated some encounter-changing effect, until you're out of range of their close-range immediate counters.
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My point was, my GM was tired of combats taking so long, so he decided to time everyone to see where the problem was, and found out that, if anyone was taking too long, it was him. He has since no longer complained about how long a combat takes.
It's difficult to say if he was taking too long, without knowing what kind of antagonists he was running.
Five identical orc warrior 1, straight out of the Bestiary?Probably too long, since they don't have many options available to them, and are pretty thick, so would defer to 'smak pinkskin wiv sord', unless directed by someone else.
In my last session, I had a cornugon, a classed efreet, flying invisible archcleric level 17+, two flying invisible bodyguards, three barbed devils, two other NPCs hoofing it toward the encounter site, jumping the PCs while they fight a Huge tree with six power attacking vital striking arms and quickened phantasmal killer.
I think I deserve a bit longer than the player who's had the same character, improving incrementally for 16 levels.
I still made my decisions faster than the players.
And i can tell you that 6 seconds is not long enough for ANY character to take a turn. In said game, I was playing a fighter, only full attacking, with all my bonuses pre-calculated, and my turn still took between 20-30 seconds. I think my absolute fastest time was 12-15 seconds.
Nobody's asking you to complete your turn in six seconds.
Ever. In the entire thread.They're asking you to make a decision in six seconds.
The rolls, the addition, the comparing to target AC/DC/CMD/hp, the rolling of reactive saves, could take as long as it takes.
Within reason. Having to add up all your bonuses every time you attack within a full attack routine is a unforgivable delay. You say you don't do that, so you're more prepped than most players I know.
"So, that's a 12. I've got 14 BAB, so that makes...26. The I've got a +2 sword, so that makes 28. And I've got Weapon focus..."
"You've got +28. Your previous attack was at +28. You're hasted, so this attack is at the same bonus of +28. Your third attack is at +23, your fourth is at +18. You got a 40, which you don't need to ask if it's a hit, because you rolled a natural 10 with your last attack at the same bonus, and I declared it a hit. Roll your third attack and add 23 to the roll."
How many seconds did it take to decide 'I full attack'?
One? Does it even take any time at all?
You're stood within [weapon reach plus 5' step] of an opponent, who'll probably take more than one hit. How hard is it to decide to full attack?
Could you have shouted it out as soon as the GM said "And now it's the turn of.."
"I full attack" <roll>
"...kikidmonkey. Oh, you've gone."
And in practice, most GMs who use the 'six-second rule' are allowing longer than that, just that six seconds is a good base to start, after which they have no inhibitions about asking for a decision or delay.
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It would only be tight, if they didn't have the luxury of being able to do all their research, and check out their chances of success during the other people's turns.
If we were to be pedantic, the real title of the thread ought to be "The Six Seconds (plus however long you had during Alex, Bob, Clare and Dave's turns, plus however long the GM spent running his NPCs, plus that five minutes while the GM went for a wizz, plus the five minutes you had when the pizza guy arrived) Rule".
But that would be rather a mouthful.
"First magic missile hits that thing, is it dead?"
I decided to post that while reading the wall of text. If I had agonized over secondary targets 3 people would have posted stuff that would have affected my post.
To the OP:
I've been experiencing this as a player recently, and while I understand the necessity for a large group, I hate feeling rushed. It's very doable, especially when the DM frequently reminds you to "have your action ready" before your turn. Unfortunately, large numbers tend to lead to this kind of situation in roleplay sessions as well, which is just infuriating.
But it does make "tactical" play difficult if not impossible. While this is completely unrealistic, I quite enjoy collaborating with others to make the perfect combo of attacks. While some people might scream "unrealistic", we are playing games where a small group of fighters can slay 100s (if not 1000s) of individuals.
The 6-second rule can work (and can become damn near essential with large groups) but it discourages certain forms of play i enjoy.
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That's when I initiated the 6-Second Rule. A single round in D20 combat represents 6 seconds in the game world. So, in order to make sure my players are paying attention, and in order to make sure that combat is fast paced, chaotic, and visceral, if things start to drag I announce that all players only have 6 seconds to respond when I call out their turn in the initiative, or else they end up losing their turn... essentially the player's indecision results in a Dazed effect for the PC.
I like it when players at least declare their actions in 6 seconds. This isn’t always going to be the case, but it should be the case 90% of the time if you were paying attention.
Imo most martial players should be ready to drop their dice immediately when it’s their turn. Do you have any idea how fast combat can get when you have a bunch of martial PCs and each turn takes only 10 seconds each?
Having said that, there are always exceptions but yes, I understand exactly what you mean. Players should know their order and should know who is ahead of them so they’re ready on their turn.
The worst case scenario is when it’s someone’s turn and they start calculating their “to hit” and damage bonuses on the fly… and they don’t even have any buffs/debuffs! That actually happened this weekend. And you know what? I’m going to start penalizing that s!$* because it’s ridiculous.
No one can think that fast if they're not hopped up on stress and adrenaline (as, one would presume, a typical player is not) so limiting their decision to 6 seconds is far flung and ridiculous; even 1 full minute may be drastically rounding down.
You're wrong, I play like this all the time when I have a martial PC. Each turn takes 10 seconds total after my name is called (which isn't even necessary since I know who goes before me).
My entire table at Bonekeep played like this, it was the only way to finish the scenario in time. And believe me, the game is a lot more fun for it. It's not about being stressed, it's just about being aware and prepared and actually paying attention to the game (and ready to drop the dice immediately and not shake them for 10+ seconds while everyone stares blankly).
The worst case scenario is when it’s someone’s turn and they start calculating their “to hit” and damage bonuses on the fly… and they don’t even have any buffs/debuffs! That actually happened this weekend. And you know what? I’m going to start penalizing that s%#+ because it’s ridiculous.
Yes, this!
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Also, your player isn't likely to be as smart or clever as the character they're playing.
Given some of the INT 7 characters I've seen in my time, that's a scary thought... ;)