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The level of skill supremacy the operative has still grates. Far from a knee jerk reaction the more I see an operative in the party with any other class the more I think they either overtuned the operative or (whats more likely fixable) didn't give the other classes enough juice in their own areas of specialization.
Even without specializing in the area the operative with a hobby is as good, better, or too damn close to the biohacker in medicine and the technomancer in computers and the mystic at their mystical connections and (most importantly i think) the mechanic at engineering and computers. Making an operative diplomat isn't out of the question, (and would arguably be the best diplomat) but they don't waltz into beating an envoy at their schtick on accident.
Within their own specializations the operative starts at a +3 compared to everyone else's +1 or +0. They tend to stay ahead or only come even after most campaigns have ended, and aren't ever all that far behind. The very linear and pass or fail nature of the d20 skill system does not lend itself to a variety of different modifiers that a roll and keep, pocket of d10s, or roll dice and draw cards system might. For example, white wolf can give you more d10s or drop the difficulty. In pathfinder/starfinder your skill value is the + and little else.
The other classes get very few special abilities to enhance or even be non comparable with the operative for their skills. Something cool like the mechanics remote hack ability has a value that can't be strictly compared to a bonus. But these abilities are very few and far between. Meanwhile the operative within their specialty has gimmicks, as well as the near "i win" button of take 10 for their specialty skills and any skills they feel like taking skill focus for. Other classes that want to speed up their proficiency by taking skill focus wind up wasting a feat they cant retrain out of, while Operatives get that nice I win button. (The envoy TECHNICALLY gets one but its so bad its barely technically)
Encouraging a higher int bonus in the other classes doesn't help them nearly enough. Most of them get surprisingly little out of having an uber (as opposed to merely good) Int score. The technomancer is a bit of an exception, but for the rest they're making the exact same trade of skill utility for combat prowess as the operative. An 18 dex 16 int isn't a niche build for an operative... or a technomancer or a biohacker or a mechanic. At most it puts the other class 1 or 2 points ahead of the operative (sometimes entirely due to the stat booster, since a starting 16 and starting 18 have the same bonus at levels 5-10)
Other classes need a consolation prize for taking skill focus and or some unique class abilities to do with their skills. Otherwise the operative is just eating everyones cookie.
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Yeah I agree. Some modifications I'd like to test at some point:
- All classes lose their scaling skill bonuses. Yes, all of them.
- The classes that had scaling bonuses to specific skills (mechanic, mystic etc.) now get free skill ranks in those skills every level.
- Operatives get free skill ranks in the skills of their specialization.
- Up the skill ranks per level for soldiers to 6.
- Change the default DC scaling for skills to be about +1/level or slightly above that, instead of the current +1.5/level.
- Trick attack damage is reduced to 1d4 per two levels, rounded up.
- Small arms and operative weapons now do full level damage on specialization.
This should accomplish a number of things:
- While any class is allowed to be good at any skill (similar to PF2), classes are guaranteed to be skilled in their signature skills.
- Fixing the DC scaling means soldiers and such are no longer second class characters in out of combat situations.
- Operatives still have a ton of skills and exploits, but they're no longer automatically better at them without trying than the nominal specialists.
- Scaling back trick attack damage and scaling up weapon specialization damage makes all the non-longarm classes suck less at their baked-in combat styles. They're not almost required to pay for longarm access anymore to perform decently.
I'm undecided yet about how to do this for envoys, and whether operatives should keep their skill focus/Take 10 ability. Based on PF2 experience, maybe Take 10 can be removed entirely.
Thats a little more overhaul. I think its fixable with a tweak of changing bonus types or just adding abilities to other classes.
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Yeah, we had to ban full-class operatives at our table. I think the last straw was during a tense space battle, any time we absolutely needed something to happen in a certain role, whoever was dedicated to that role got shoved aside so the Operative could step in.
It felt like our crew was standing around sipping coffee while the Operative did everything important.
We realized the same was true in dungeons while we tagged along behind the operative checking for traps, opening doors, scouting, and gathering info. Our bounty hunter soldier who put points into survival got to use it ONCE. They rolled lower than the operative who effortlessly beat the check.
This is all aside from combat where the GM got fed up with "Oh, lol, no you don't get attacks of opportunity. Also, of course I don't have to roll trick attack anymore, it's automatic. Don't forget to apply those conditions my last high damage attack did automatically."
Operatives also single handedly ruined small arms, so there's that too.
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I totally understand the issue with the operative, but I think you don't really have to change a lot to fix it.
Basically I would only change the following:
- Operatives Edge: Bonus only to Initiative and his specializations skill
- Debilitating Trick: only half damage if you apply a condition or use a
special exploit
- Skill Points at each Level: 6 + Int
This way the "Operatives Edge" feature is more on the level off TechLore (Technomancer) or Bypass (Mechanic).
By reducing the skills/level you bring the operative on the same skill quality/quantity as the envoy, making them them both the "skill monkey".
The change in the Debilitating Trick ability has mor to do with choices and could help balance the combat ability of the operative.
I totally understand the issue with the operative, but I think you don't really have to change a lot to fix it.
Basically I would only change the following:
- Operatives Edge: Bonus only to Initiative and his specializations skill
- Debilitating Trick: only half damage if you apply a condition or use a
special exploit
- Skill Points at each Level: 6 + IntThis way the "Operatives Edge" feature is more on the level off TechLore (Technomancer) or Bypass (Mechanic).
By reducing the skills/level you bring the operative on the same skill quality/quantity as the envoy, making them them both the "skill monkey".
The change in the Debilitating Trick ability has mor to do with choices and could help balance the combat ability of the operative.
I like this solution best I think. It's simple and easy. Though I would think they should also get edge to their choice of bluff, intimidate, or stealth as they can also use those skills to trick attack no matter the specialization.
Soldiers and solarians should have 6 ranks a level too.
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I think 4 skills/level is good for soldiers/solarians, simply to set the focus of each class (soldier/solarion = combat, operative = rouge skill monkey, envoy = social skillmonkey).
For the edge/trick attack skill I don't think it's needed to give this bonus also to other skills as an operative can use his spezialisation skill for trick attack too. (Also giving this Bonus to social skills would lean to much toward the envoy, I think).
The problem with tweaking things in the game (and yes I have tweaked) is the consequences of the tweaking.
Lets just look at traps.
Removing/limiting operative's edge makes traps a death sentence for a party.
My 12th level group's operative has a Perception of 25. Removing operative's edge would make that 21.
A 12th level trap has a spot DC of 38. As the current rules are written the operative only has a 40% chance of spotting the trap. Removing operative's edge knocks that down to 20%.
Now lets say they spot the trap. My 12th level group's operative has a 23 engineering. Without operative's edge it is 19.
The engineering DC to disable a trap is 33. With operative's edge the operative has a 55% of disabling the trap with out it it is 35%.
A DC 12 trap deals 12d12+5 damage. That's a lot of damage.
Now I know there are things to assist (aid other, took kits, etc) to assist in finding and deactivating traps, but not enough to overcome removing operative's edge.
Neither I or my player's find operatives out of line with any other class. All classes have something they are good at and they have things they not good at.
In the five 6 PC groups I run operative PCs have done no more or less than the other classes in my games.
I like your adjustments Peg'giz.
Honestly, I think if you ONLY changed operative's edge to apply to init and the specialization skill, most of the skill dominance would disappear. You could also add an exploit that allows them to expand the range of skills the edge applies to. Personally, I'd also consider removing the free skill focuses the class gets, as that seems like overkill.
Combat wise, operatives are overtuned between 5th and 9th level, dealing damage on par with solarians and soldiers while also laying out debuffs. OTOH, they fall behind massively when in the teens, getting better debuffs but doing much less damage relatively. So in my mind any combat change should be localized to the high single digits, if at all.
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Valid points Hawk, but also shows a problem of the system.
If a normal skill DC is so high that only a character with an optimized skill levels can suceed in it, something in the basic system is wrong.
Also why does the operative do all this stuff (finding the trap & disableing it)? Why not let players work together (the one with the high WIS/Perception spot the trap and the mechanic disables it)?
Of course, if your party has no problem with it, than you don't need to change anything.
Valid points Hawk, but also shows a problem of the system.
If a normal skill DC is so high that only a character with an optimized skill levels can suceed in it, something in the basic system is wrong.
Also why does the operative do all this stuff (finding the trap & disableing it)? Why not let players work together (the one with the high WIS/Perception spot the trap and the mechanic disables it)?
Of course, if your party has no problem with it, than you don't need to change anything.
I personally don't have a problem with traps being difficult to detect and disarm.
As for working together of course my players do, they just let the best PC for each job do their thing.
In my 12th level group could have either/both mystics look for traps (21 perception with 1 aiding for a +23 chance) and certainly if it is a mystical trap the 12th level operative has to step aside and let the mystics do their thing with regards to disarming it.
In my 10th level group the operative, mechanic, mystic or ranger (3rd party material) all have an equal chance to spot but disarming engineering traps falls to the technomancer and mechanic, while the mystic traps are handled by the tecnomacher and mystic.
I really try hard to make sure all PCs get their 15 minutes over the course of a session or at least during an adventure.
I guess it comes down to your players.
If they feel the operative is stealing the show then I guess you suggest that everyone plays an operative, make more opportunities for the others to shine or tweak operatives.
I guess I am very fortunate to have players who are satisfied with successfully completing adventures and don't really care that much about who did what, to whom or how much they did. They truly think in terms of a team effort and accomplishment.
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The problem with tweaking things in the game (and yes I have tweaked) is the consequences of the tweaking.
Ok, so what happens if we set the other class abilities at one or two higher than operatives edge of the same level?
The problem with tweaking things in the game (and yes I have tweaked) is the consequences of the tweaking.Ok, so what happens if we set the other class abilities at one or two higher than operatives edge of the same level?
Depends on the class, the ability, your game, your players, etc.
Depends on the class, the ability, your game, your players, etc.The problem with tweaking things in the game (and yes I have tweaked) is the consequences of the tweaking.Ok, so what happens if we set the other class abilities at one or two higher than operatives edge of the same level?
All of em. Whatever the classes "you get this bonus to two skills" ability is. Mystic connection skills, bypass, the biohackers studious/instinctive bonus, ... what breaks?
All of em. Whatever the classes "you get this bonus to two skills" ability is. Mystic connection skills, bypass, the biohackers studious/instinctive bonus, ... what breaks?Depends on the class, the ability, your game, your players, etc.The problem with tweaking things in the game (and yes I have tweaked) is the consequences of the tweaking.Ok, so what happens if we set the other class abilities at one or two higher than operatives edge of the same level?
My initial response was related to removing/reducing operative's edge.
Adding to classes generally does not break anything. Just makes things easier for the PC in question.
I suppose the easiest thing to do would be to give everyone 8 skills per level, +1 BAB per level, good save bonus to all saves, 7 HP and SP per level, all skills are class skills and the ability to cast mystic and technomancer spells.
No no one is left out of anything and everyone can do everything.
All of em. Whatever the classes "you get this bonus to two skills" ability is. Mystic connection skills, bypass, the biohackers studious/instinctive bonus, ... what breaks?Depends on the class, the ability, your game, your players, etc.The problem with tweaking things in the game (and yes I have tweaked) is the consequences of the tweaking.Ok, so what happens if we set the other class abilities at one or two higher than operatives edge of the same level?
I don't think anything would break. Hell, it might even be a good thing to make it so that specialists don't need aid another to have a decent chance of passing skill checks.
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I suppose the easiest thing to do would be to give everyone 8 skills per level, +1 BAB per level, good save bonus to all saves, 7 HP and SP per level, all skills are class skills and the ability to cast mystic and technomancer spells.No no one is left out of anything and everyone can do everything.
And no one is different or specialized from anyone else or has their moment to do their thing. It's the complete opposite problem from the operative.
But that wasn't the proposed solution. While everyone is good at their thing, each individual character only gets 2 things (usually). So what problems would that run into?
And no one is different or specialized from anyone else or has their moment to do their thing. It's the complete opposite problem from the operative.But that wasn't the proposed solution. While everyone is good at their thing, each individual character only gets 2 things (usually). So what problems would that run into?
Well if you are different and specialized then you will be really good at some things and not others.
The operative is no different.
The operative is really good at skills that's about it.
They are only ok at combat. They don't hit as often as a soldier to make trick attack that big of a deal and sniper rifles stink.
If operatives are dominating your game, maybe look at your game. They don't dominate my games, so I see no problem.
The problem is you devalue the operatives one big advantage: high skills and the ability to succeed at difficult tasks when others most likely will fail.
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In practice, Operatives being the skill characters means they dominate every minute of the game outside of combat. It's unsustainable. No one class is THE combat class, and Operative isn't far enough behind in combat to justify being the undisputed king of the rest of the game. In fact, they're stronger in combat than all casters, and freqently top out on damage contributions in combat simply because of how easy it is for them to get into the optimally effective position.
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And no one is different or specialized from anyone else or has their moment to do their thing. It's the complete opposite problem from the operative.But that wasn't the proposed solution. While everyone is good at their thing, each individual character only gets 2 things (usually). So what problems would that run into?
Well if you are different and specialized then you will be really good at some things and not others.
The operative is no different.
The operative is really good at skills that's about it.
They are only ok at combat. They don't hit as often as a soldier to make trick attack that big of a deal and sniper rifles stink.
If operatives are dominating your game, maybe look at your game. They don't dominate my games, so I see no problem.
The problem is you devalue the operatives one big advantage: high skills and the ability to succeed at difficult tasks when others most likely will fail.
While I agree that the people that occasionally present operatives as being overpowered on combat aren't correct, I have to disagree that "skills" is a specialization. A subset of skills, sure. All of them at once, no.
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Well if you are different and specialized then you will be really good at some things and not others.
The operative is no different.
The operative is really good at skills that's about it.
It's too good at too many of them. "Skills" Isn't one thing in this game. It's social encounters and exploration and problem solving and mystery solving and intrigue busting.
They are only ok at combat. They don't hit as often as a soldier to make trick attack that big of a deal and sniper rifles stink.
Operatives usually attack flat footed AC and after level 7 are always attacking flat footed AC. Flat footed will make up for their BAB till level 9. Their accuracy isn't that far below a soldiers.
Their damage is nothing to sneeze at, particularly if the soldier hasn't upgraded their weapon in a while.
If operatives are dominating your game, maybe look at your game. They don't dominate my games, so I see no problem.
I play mostly SFS scenarios, so I see a large variety of games with different groups. If operatives aren't dominating your game its probably not a very skill heavy one. (or any time there's a skill check its at a dinner party...)
The problem is you devalue the operatives one big advantage: high skills and the ability to succeed at difficult tasks when others most likely will fail.
... How on earth do you reach the completely wrong conclusion that I"m under valuing this? How on earth could I value something more than call it an I win button and something that needs a change?
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In practice, Operatives being the skill characters means they dominate every minute of the game outside of combat. It's unsustainable. No one class is THE combat class, and Operative isn't far enough behind in combat to justify being the undisputed king of the rest of the game. In fact, they're stronger in combat than all casters, and freqently top out on damage contributions in combat simply because of how easy it is for them to get into the optimally effective position.
In my experience that is just not the case.
They have 16 class skills but it is unlikely that they get 16 skill points per level. Yes you can get there if you make an int based operative, but then you are lacking elsewhere ability wise.
Unless you spend feats to add class skills, they should not be dominating Diplomacy, Life Science, Mysticism, or Physical Science.
They do not trump the expertise die of the envoy in the envoy's selected skills.
They usually don't trump intelligence based skills compared to a technomancer (who will have his INT maxed out) or the wisdom based skills of a mystic (who will have his WIS maxed out).
Looking at the PCs of my 10th level group the Technomancer beats the operative out in every single INT skill and the Mystic beats out the operative in every single WIS skill.
The soldier is a superior combatant to the operative.
Yes it is true that at 7th level the operative almost always is in position to make a trick attack they are hitting about 25% to 30% less of the time than a solider (assuming same Dex).
I am not so sure that the operative is superior to a spell caster in combat due to the number of different things a caster can do to impede/cripple the enemy without actually causing damage.
Operatives usually attack flat footed AC and after level 7 are always attacking flat footed AC. Flat footed will make up for their BAB till level 9. Their accuracy isn't that far below a soldiers.
How are the always attacking flat footed AC after level 7?
Their damage is nothing to sneeze at, particularly if the soldier hasn't upgraded their weapon in a while.
If they hit, which is on average 25 to 30% less than a soldier.
I play mostly SFS scenarios, so I see a large variety of games with different groups. If operatives aren't dominating your game its probably not a very skill heavy one. (or any time there's a skill check its at a dinner party...)
As do I. In fact my games are in fact quite skill heavy.
... How on earth do you reach the completely wrong conclusion that I"m under valuing this? How on earth could I value something more than call it an I win button and something that needs a change?
I think you misunderstood my response.
What I was trying to say was. If you increase OTHER classes skill abilities you devalue the operative's main ability, which is skill excellence.
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How are the always attacking flat footed AC after level 7?
Being able to Take 10 on their trick attack skill check basically means they will always succeed against something that they don't need to be desperately fleeing from.
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How are the always attacking flat footed AC after level 7?Being able to Take 10 on their trick attack skill check basically means they will always succeed against something that they don't need to be desperately fleeing from.
Well hell, I missed that little piece about the target being flat-footed to your attack.
Might explain a bit of the operatives attack issues at my table.
They should be hitting 10% more of the time.
Thanks for that.
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How are the always attacking flat footed AC after level 7?
Trick attack: If you succeed at the check, you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target is flat-footed.
Debilitating trick: When you hit an enemy with a trick attack, you can make the creature flat-footed or off-target until the beginning of your next turn
So when an operative attacks There's the skill check, if the check succeeds the target is flat footed vs. the operatives attack. At 4th level if the attack hits the opponent stays flat footed
Specialization Skill Mastery 7th Level
When attempting a skill check with a skill in which you have the Skill Focus feat, you can take 10 even if stress or distractions would normally prevent you from doing so.
So at level 7 the operative has skill focus in a feat for their trick attack, which they can use take 10 for and should never miss the skill check.(if you're fighting something thats 7cr above you? Run)
Your operative not doing this is the only reason I can see for them being so much less accurate than the soldier.
I play mostly SFS scenarios, so I see a large variety of games with different groups. If operatives aren't dominating your game its probably not a very skill heavy one. (or any time there's a skill check its at a dinner party...)
As do I. In fact my games are in fact quite skill heavy.
What I was trying to say was. If you increase OTHER classes skill abilities you devalue the operative's main ability, which is skill excellence.
... yes. I'm trying to pare back the operative from "the best at every skill" to "the jack of all trades" or even better "substantially different at skills to warrant other characters existing outside of combat"
I don't see why the operative has to be better at the other classes main skill to be better at skills. Its a fallacy of composition.
They have 16 class skills but it is unlikely that they get 16 skill points per level. Yes you can get there if you make an int based operative, but then you are lacking elsewhere ability wise.
10 skill points per level base (effectively, since they get 2 free skill points for their specialization skills)
+3 starting int
+1 int bonus at 4
+1 int bonus for the +2 part of a +2/+4 upgrade at 7th.
15 per level is pretty easy at 7th.
If they hit, which is on average 25 to 30% less than a soldier.
Since bad dice isn't an operative feature (after level 7 anyway) what's causing this? Thats a +6 difference in hit bonus, which I really don't see.
Looking at the PCs of my 10th level group the Technomancer beats the operative out in every single INT skill and the Mystic beats out the operative in every single WIS skill.
I see a lot of mixed nuts in SFS, its a larger sample size than one group (where your operative probably deliberately built away from someone else's niche)
Trick attack: If you succeed at the check, you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target is flat-footed.
Yes I have missed the flat-footed part. So 10% more hits for the operative.
Debilitating trick: When you hit an enemy with a trick attack, you can make the creature flat-footed or off-target until the beginning of your next turnSo when an operative attacks There's the skill check, if the check succeeds the target is flat footed vs. the operatives attack. At 4th level if the attack hits the opponent stays flat footed
Yes knew and was implementing this part. When are operatives hit they invariably made the target flat-footed.
Specialization Skill Mastery 7th LevelWhen attempting a skill check with a skill in which you have the Skill Focus feat, you can take 10 even if stress or distractions would normally prevent you from doing so.
So at level 7 the operative has skill focus in a feat for their trick attack, which they can use take 10 for and should never miss the skill check.(if you're fighting something thats 7cr above you? Run)
Your operative not doing this is the only reason I can see for them being so much less accurate than the soldier.
Yep, know and use all this. I use a lot of SFS scenarios which are designed for 6 players. So they APL of six 7th level PCs is 8. So a challenging encounter is CR9 and Hard CR 10.
Looking at the 7th level sheet of the operative in my 12th level group she could go with Stealth at +18 or Sense Motive at +14 with +4 bonus from Detective specialization (so +18).
She cannot take 10 on a Cr 9 or high creature. So while this works great for a CR 9 made of 2 CR7 creatures its of no help on a single CR 9 creature.
So the take 10 while nice is a bit over rated to me
... yes. I'm trying to pare back the operative from "the best at every skill" to "the jack of all trades" or even better "substantially different at skills to warrant other characters existing outside of combat"I don't see why the operative has to be better at the other classes main skill to be better at skills. Its a fallacy of composition.
As I said elsewhere they are very good at everything but unless maxed out in INT and WIS they will not beat out the technomacher on INT skills or the mystic on WIS skills.
10 skill points per level base (effectively, since they get 2 free skill points for their specialization skills)+3 starting int
+1 int bonus at 4
+1 int bonus for the +2 part of a +2/+4 upgrade at 7th.
15 per level is pretty easy at 7th.
I suppose you could start an operative with a 16 Int.
I assume you mean +1 at level 5?
And finally you are talking about spending 1,400 credits for a stat up grade at level 7?
Yep that is 15. Still will need an expert for Diplomacy, Life Science, Mysticism and Physical Science, however.
Since bad dice isn't an operative feature (after level 7 anyway) what's causing this? Thats a +6 difference in hit bonus, which I really don't see.
Probably not expressed the best way by me. At 10th level a soldier's BAB is +10 and an operative's is +7. 7 is 30% less than 10 in terms of a percentage but is is only 3 different on a die 20 which is really only 15%
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Looking at the 7th level sheet of the operative in my 12th level group she could go with Stealth at +18 or Sense Motive at +14 with +4 bonus from Detective specialization (so +18).
So 7 ranks sense motive, +3 class skill, +3 insight and +1 for wisdom? That is honestly a lower TA skill modifier than I usually see. Guaranteed trick attack against enemies at +3 or +4 is very commonly an accurate assumption of what operatives do.
Looking at the 7th level sheet of the operative in my 12th level group she could go with Stealth at +18 or Sense Motive at +14 with +4 bonus from Detective specialization (so +18).So 7 ranks sense motive, +3 class skill, +3 insight and +1 for wisdom? That is honestly a lower TA skill modifier than I usually see.
Yes 7 ranks sense motive, +3 class skill, +3 operatives edge, +1 Wisdom bonus for +14 and then the +4 for detective specialization.
I believe that the player was taking into account the +4 detective specialization when allocation points to stats.
The Dex is +18 and the is maxed pretty well.
7 skill ranks, +3 class skill, +3 operative's edge, +5 Dex Modifier.
Not sure ho much higher it could be at level 7.
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Stealth could be 1 higher, for a ghost. But having a non dex skill with +3 or +4 in the stat at 7, instead of +1, is common.
Looking at the 7th level sheet of the operative in my 12th level group she could go with Stealth at +18 or Sense Motive at +14 with +4 bonus from Detective specialization (so +18)
That is..kind of low. This was the detective operative that didn't invest in any wisdom?
7 ranks
+3 trained bonus
+3 operatives edge
+5 dex
Most other operatives have a +1 (for dex skills) or +4 for non dex skills. Your operative could (and really should) also get chameleon skin for +3 for a mere 4k credits.
At level 7 My ysoki muscle operative had for engineering
7 ranks
+4 int
+3 trained
+3 operatives edge
+2 ysoki bonus
+4 to make a trick attack
= +23 = can take 10 vs a CR 13. = if she can't trick it she's tucking the mystic under her arm and outrunning the soldier. (Or an 11 if she wasn't a space rat)
So the take 10 while nice is a bit over rated to me
This is why I think playing with a large variety of groups is an advantage. Large sample size. I think you're looking at one operative that isn't particularly well built, and wasn't using a major class feature, and making judgements from there.
As I said elsewhere they are very good at everything but unless maxed out in INT and WIS they will not beat out the technomacher on INT skills or the mystic on WIS skills.
Your operative won't. Many others will. A 16 starting int isn't a bad idea on an operative. Besides dex you don't really need the points anywhere else. The operatives edge being higher than bypass will make that missing point or 2 up for a good chunk of an adventurers career even on a non specialist.
But even a 14 puts you really really close. And more than close with the take 10 I win button.
Probably not expressed the best way by me. At 10th level a soldier's BAB is +10 and an operative's is +7. 7 is 30% less than 10 in terms of a percentage but is is only 3 different on a die 20 which is really only 15%
And run it again now that you know about the flat footed thing.
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Yes 7 ranks sense motive, +3 class skill, +3 operatives edge, +1 Wisdom bonus for +14 and then the +4 for detective specialization.
I believe that the player was taking into account the +4 detective specialization when allocation points to stats.
The Dex is +18 and the is maxed pretty well.
7 skill ranks, +3 class skill, +3 operative's edge, +5 Dex Modifier.
Not sure ho much higher it could be at level 7.
Note that +18 is almost the minimum a detective operative could be at level 7. ALL detective operatives get 7 ranks of sense motive, the +3 class skill, the +3 from skill focus/operative's edge, and +4 from detective specialization. If you start with 10 in wisdom and bump it up at 5th level, you'll have +1 from wisdom.
Literally ANY effort to optimize from this point will make it so you can no longer fail trick attack skill checks. If you start with 12 or 14 WIS, for example. Or if you start with a race with a racial bonus to sense motive.
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Also, note:
Weapon focus at level 10 for an operative gives them a +2 to hit vs a soldier's weapon focus which would still be at +1. That's on top of flat footed.
Good points by all.
I picked up a few things that I can impart to my players (or use against them.....LOL).
Clearly the people I play with approach the game completely differently then those that post here.
Good points by all.
I picked up a few things that I can impart to my players (or use against them.....LOL).
Clearly the people I play with approach the game completely differently then those that post here.
I don't think "with basic optimization" is really that niche of a context to look at rules ramifications.
Exactly I agree with the idea that others posted of operatives edge applying to their specialization and init... maybe just maybe let the player pick one more skill per int bonus score...
I don't think that helps that much.The operative will pick the most useful skills, which usually heavily steps on other party members toes.
Exactly I agree with the idea that others posted of operatives edge applying to their specialization and init... maybe just maybe let the player pick one more skill per int bonus score...I don't think that helps that much.The operative will pick the most useful skills, which usually heavily steps on other party members toes.
Which is why I like spec skill + your pick of one trick attack skill. Gives you the two or three skills other classes get, plus initiative as a class feature.
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I think scaling skill bonuses are a bad concept to begin with, together with the too-fast scaling standard DCs.
Right now, if you play a soldier, you get skill points. Not a lot, and you might take some feats or boost intelligence to get more. But it's a trap - unless you spend a ton of class features and feats, you just can't keep up with the 1.5/level scaling of skill DCs.
And it's actually the same for any class trying to use a skill that's not on their list of "approved" skills - even if you try hard, you're falling behind. Only with a scaling skill bonus (techlore, connection skill etc) do you keep up.
It was pointed out that without operative skill bonuses you won't find traps. It's the other way around - without operative skill bonuses, trap DCs wouldn't have to be so high.
The current system leads to fake choices - you can put points in this skill, and they'll let you use the skill for a few levels, but you get worse and worse at it. Also, retraining can only change the last few levels. Haha, joke's on you.
This is why I'm saying skill DCs should scale a lot slower than 1.5/level, and these auto-scaling skill bonuses that classes get to their signature skills should be replaced with free ranks in those skills. (And only your specialization ones, for operatives.)
With a long list of class skills and a lot of skill points per level, the operative still gets to be the skill class and jack of all trades. But it's no longer a given that you have to be an operative to keep up in a certain skill or that the operative almost accidentally is better at a skill than someone for whom it's their concept. And while a soldier is not going to be brilliant at skills (small pool), they can be competitive in the few skills they choose to care about.
I think the scaling works for levels 1-10. There you're increasing your stat at levels 2 7 and 13 from ability crystals and levels 5 and 10 with stat boosts. After that? All you're doing is putting in one rank per level and at best, 1 /3rd your level from a scaling bonus.