So, a dragon (usually red, silver or gold) can polymorph up to three time a day.
If they choose to take the form of a medium humanoid, the ability works like the spell Alter Self.
Using Alter Self as a baseline...said dragon just got a +2 to strength.
Neat. Gives my evil green dragon (custom) even more reason to assume his alter ego. Muhaha.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately (see Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes), changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
This is how I've interpreted that quote (and the referenced table):
Let's say your green dragon is Adult. That makes it Huge. When using alter self to become a medium humanoid, it first applies a -8 adjustment to Strength for the purposes of calculating attack bonus and CMB and a +4 adjustment to Dexterity for the purposes of calculating Stealth and AC. You are also supposed to apply a -4 adjustment to Constitution, but I'm not really sure how that applies as the above scores don't use Constitution.
Then you apply the modifiers for alter self.
This gets weirder if an Adult green dragon casts giant form ii. They first apply the downsizing modifiers, then apply the score adjustments listed for giant form ii. Note that the latter modifiers are size bonuses and not targeted adjustments; they work for anything that a temporary bonus to those scores would normally work for. Honestly, it's even more complicated than 3.5, but the rules were made for Small and Medium characters, which are much easier to adjudicate.
Somebody needs to read up on the polymorph subschool.
Somebody needs to read up on the polymorph subschool.
Quite possibly me. Every time I reread that section I learn something new. It really shouldn't be that complicated.
Yep, looks like the only change to the dragon's Strength is a +2 increase.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
If a creature starts off as larger than Medium or smaller than Small first you must use the adjusted stats table on CRB p212.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
A creature that starts off as Huge suffers -8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, -4 Constitution and THEN has Alter self applied.
However, with that said, Change Shape has some special rules and restrictions of it's own.
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.
Since the Dragon's Change Shape ability does not provide an exception a Huge Dragon can only change into a Large (or Gargantuan) Humanoid or Animal. Note: this is probably against RAI since Ancient Dragons changing into humans is pretty iconic.
Additionally, it gains no ability score adjustments.
- Gauss
Humanoid is not a size. Humanoid is a type.
Additionally, Change Shape also references Polymorph and yet provides the statement that you cannot do more than one size difference.
Im not saying it is not RAI, I believe it is. But, this is one more example of RAW that may not work as intended.
Does a dragon have the ability Change Shape? Yes
Does it limit Change Shape? Yes, to Animals and humanoids.
Does Change Shape reference the Polymorph Spell? Yes.
Does a Dragon's Change Shape provide an exception to the size limitation provided in the Change Shape rules? No
So, we have a Dragon, using Change Shape, as per the Polymorph Spell, which is as per the Alter Self spell, to change into a Humanoid of either Small or Medium size IF it is within one size of the dragon.
Can a Huge Dragon use Alter Self via Polymorph via Change Shape? No.
Why? Alter Self is limited to Small and Medium humanoids. Change Shape limits a Huge Dragon to between Large and Colossal humanoids.
The two are in conflict.
Again, I do not believe this is RAI and in my own games I will houserule otherwise.
- Gauss
Edit: Major Edit
Unfortunately, not even Large and Huge Humanoids work. The spell Polymorph does not include the spell Giant Form.
- Gauss
The Oni is an example where Change Shape had a proper exception provided. It gave a size in addition to a type and even provided Giant Form I as an additional option.
It is what the Dragon version of Change Shape needs in order to work as many people think it does. :)
Actually, your statement provokes an interesting thought. Does "any" when it states "any animal or humanoid" mean "any size"? It isn't written but it might be intended.
In fact, I will create the FAQ question based on that. It is much simpler and cleaner.
- Gauss
| 12 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
FAQ Question: In the Bronze, Gold, and Silver Dragon versions of Change Shape does the phrase "any animal or humanoid form" mean "any size animal or humanoid form"?
Supporting information:
Change Shape (Su) A silver dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form three times per day as if using polymorph.
The Change Shape rules limit Change Shape to 1 size difference from the original size of the creature using it. Is "any" an exception to this?
A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form.
Note: An exception is not provided via the Polymorph spell (the spell that Change Shape must also follow) which also uses the Alter Self spell.
An example of a Change Shape ability that provides a size exception is the Oni.
SQ change shape (Small, Medium, or Large humanoid;
alter self or giant form I), flight
Normally the Oni would not have access to Small forms nor to Giant Form I. Small form is against the Change Shape rules and Giant Form I is not part of the Polymorph spell.
- Gauss
Bizbag, an Ancient Copper Dragon has access to Polymorph (as per Sorcerer) so has other means besides Change Shape but the duration is significantly limited.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
So, yes, you can get out of a polymorph effect (other than Baleful Polymorph, it has its own restrictions) with another polymorph effect.
- Gauss
True, I was just pointing out that the limitations built into in Change Shape do not apply to other polymorph effects.
- Gauss
Honestly, they're dragons. Creatures that lived and breathed magic before elfkind were a thought in some deity's mind. Just draw up a higher level alter self spell with 1 day/level duration and give them that. Alternately, greater hat of disguise.
blahpers, as I stated earlier, I would probably house rule it in my own games. But, this is the rules forum not the house rules forum.
- Gauss
There are printed rules for custom spell research in the Core Rulebook. Just because the rules require qualitative analysis instead of a 100% deterministic algorithm doesn't make them not RAW.
If that bothers you, then give him a hat, or a custom magic item if slots are a problem. They have printed rules for that too.
blahpers, I (mostly) play home games so I dont have a problem with house rules or guidelines.
In PFS (which I do play on occasion) the question of a Dragon using Change Shape will rarely, if ever, come up and it will be a GMs problem rather than my own.
However, this is the rules forum. As such, if there is a section of the rules that are unclear or in need of repair then a FAQ is probably in order. :)
- Gauss
Thank you all.
My world requires dragons of various types and ages to be able to assume a human(oid) form.
After this discussion, at least I know which rules I am bending. I have gained clarity (on polymorph...no not really...hehe..).
Thank you for all the rule clarifications, and some references I was unaware of in Pathfinder.
I'm off to stat my dragon's primary alternate form as an NPC.
So, a dragon (usually red, silver or gold) can polymorph up to three time a day.
If they choose to take the form of a medium humanoid, the ability works like the spell Alter Self.
Using Alter Self as a baseline...said dragon just got a +2 to strength.
Neat. Gives my evil green dragon (custom) even more reason to assume his alter ego. Muhaha.
While he may get a +2 modifier for strength, he's lost lot more in basic damage dice from going down in size, losing his natural attacks, natural armor, and breath weapon.
When Dragons take humanoid form, it's because they're sneaking around, not for it's "immense power".
This is true. Thanks.
blahpers, I (mostly) play home games so I dont have a problem with house rules or guidelines.
In PFS (which I do play on occasion) the question of a Dragon using Change Shape will rarely, if ever, come up and it will be a GMs problem rather than my own.
However, this is the rules forum. As such, if there is a section of the rules that are unclear or in need of repair then a FAQ is probably in order. :)
- Gauss
PFS and RAW differ here. PFS doesn't allow table variation, while RAW acknowledges and even encourages it in many places. That's about all I have to say on the thread's subject, so the OP can take what they needed from the thread's contents and leave the rest. Cheers!
SkiAce, not much stating is needed. He does not change any ability scores when using Change Shape. Not even the +2 strength from Alter Self.
- Gauss
** spoiler omitted **
As it happens, I'm currently building the character you mentioned for my post-Campaign Path campaign. It turns out that the individual you mentioned is going to be joining the party after the next adventure (the ritual mentioned in the back of said CP), so I needed to stat him up.
To answer your question, that particular breed of dragon doesn't get Change Shape and has to rely entirely on Polymorph Spells - which, as it happens, do NOT have the restriction mentioned above.
Which means, as far as I can tell, that this party NPC dragon will have a 38 NA while in human form (since I can find nothing that says that dragons lose any of their NA while polymorphed) while losing his -8 size penalty and getting a +4 size bonus to Dex, giving him a 48 AC while walking around nude.
His stats will drop from Str 39 to Str 25 (-16 polymorphing from Colossal to Medium, +2 for Alter self), while his Con will drop from 27 to 19. And, as noted above, his Dex will increase from 6 to 10.
He loses all of his dragon special abilities and breath weapon, but keeps his spellcasting (but not his spell-like abilities) meaning that he will effectively be a 17th level Sorcerer... with d12 HD and a massive AC.
All in all, he looks pretty awesome.
Zelgadas Greyward, while it is not spelled out as such it is generally believed that race based Natural Armor is either EX or SU and is thus lost due to the polymorph rules stating that racial EX/SU abilities are lost while polymorphed. Thus, your dragon will not have a 38 Natural Armor.
There have been a number of threads regarding this.
Reading the dragon section in the beasteries, I've noticed that dragons do not get a size increase to their scores. Instead their stats are increased due to age categories, and is mentioned on P. 92 of both Beastery 2 as well as 3. So if this is this true, would that mean they may not see a decrease in stats based on a lessening of size as well?