Okay I know this has been talk about before but all the post are old and the FAQ links from 2010-2012 no longer link to the FAQ since it has been moved, so please bare with me once again...
Normal BAB 10 /Flurry BAB 11
Since we use Hero Lab it says I only have a +9/+9 when FoB
But how I read it my FoB should be +9/+9/+4/+-1 before any ability scores and other modifiers.
And my normal Full Attack should be +10/+5
My situation is my entire gaming group seems to think the FoB table is a set in stone kind of FoB progression, I did find a post once by the dev team (unless I’m mistaken) that said the table was there because the monks strange ability of using monk levels in place of monk's BAB and the weird progression of when they get there FoB progression at 1st,8th and 15th level, to help new players understand how the ability works and when the additional attacks are gained how it effects the FoB. Though for the life of me I cant find this post.
But so far here is what I have found.
Pg. 11 Core Rule Book
Base Attack Bonus (BAB)
Each creature has a base attack bonus and it represents its skill in combat. As a character gains levels or Hit Dice, his base attack bonus improves. When a creature's base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16, he receives an additional attack in combat when he takes a full-attack action (which is one type of full-round action—see Chapter 8).
Pg. 187 Core Rule Book
Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
Pg.57 Core Rule Book
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk
can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these
attacks, the monk’s base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
Pg. 5 Pathfinder Conversion Guide
Monk (page 56)
Many of the monk’s signature abilities have received an
overhaul in the Pathfinder RPG rules. Chief among these are
alterations to the flurry of blows mechanic, wider options in
bonus feats, and the addition of the ki pool mechanic (which
many other abilities are now a part of ). To convert your monk,
take the following steps.
• In addition to the bonus feats gained at 1st, 2nd, and
6th levels, monks now gain an additional bonus feat for
every 4 levels beyond 6th. The list of bonus feats that can
be selected is enlarged, so make sure to check your feats
versus those on the list (see page 58). In addition, all monks
now receive Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level. At
higher levels, they can even substitute different effects
(other than stun for 1 round) when performing such attacks
(see page 59).
• A monk’s base attack bonus when performing a flurry of
blows is now equal to his level. His attacks are made as if
using Two-Weapon Fighting (and its improvements at later
levels). Table 3–10 summarizes these bonuses. Change your
flurry of blows base bonuses to match these values (plus
any increases to your base attack bonus from ,
which might give you additional attacks with your primary
strike). Note that other increases to your base attack bonus
do not increase the number of attacks you can make with
your off hand, as the bonus feats to gain these attacks are
not gained until you reach the required level of monk.
Aditional monk stuff from FAQ
Monk Flurry BAB FAQ
Monk: The monk rules for flurry state, "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1?
A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.
—Sean K Reynolds, 09/10/10
Monk Flurry with a single weapon FAQ
Monk Flurry of Blows: When I use flurry of blows, can I make all of the attacks with just one weapon, or do I have to use two, as implied by the ability functioning similarly to Two-Weapon Fighting?
You can make all of your attacks with a single monk weapon. Alternatively, you can replace any number of these attacks with an unarmed strike. This FAQ specifically changes a previous ruling made in the blog concerning this issue.
—Jason Bulmahn, 11/30/12
Is there ANYTHING that I have missed for the multiclass monk's FoB for the additional Primary attacks gained from a high BAB? also any other official post that I may have missed?
And thanks in advance for any help.
Ask them the following questions:
According to Table 3-16 in the CRB, what is the highest level spell a 10th level wizard can cast? (Answer: 5th.)
According to the same Table, what is the highest level spell a multi-class 5th level wizard/5th level fighter can cast? (Answer: 3rd.)
If they don't get these answers right, you've got bigger problems.
If they DO get these answers right, then ask:
Why are they assuming that the monk FoB (or any monk feature for that matter) would work differently than any other multi-class combination?
After all, a Fighter 3/Wizard 1 cannot take Weapon Specialization, nor can they cast 2nd level wizard spells! Likewise, a Fighter 3/Wizard 1 only has a BAB of +3 (not +4)!
As for the example:
Example Lvl Monk 2/Magus 13
Normal BAB 10 /Flurry BAB 11
Since we use Hero Lab it says I only have a +9/+9 when FoB
But how I read it my FoB should be +9/+9/+4/+-1 before any ability scores and other modifiers.
And my normal Full Attack should be +10/+5
Monk BAB +1 (+2 with Flurry), Magus BAB +9
Combined BAB +10/+5
Flurry BAB (before -2 penalty or extra attack): +11/+6/+1
Actually Flurry BAB (w/ penalty and extra attack): +9/+9/+4/-1
As a 2nd level monk, you only add 1 additional attack at your highest BAB, then apply the -2 penalty.
As for Hero Lab, it sounds like there's a bug, in that it's not applying the -2 as a TWF penalty, but instead as a reduction to the BAB.
That's a Hero Lab issue, and you should contact them.
Note, I struck through the incorrect interpretation.
Remember, a monk only gets 1 extra attack at 1st-7th level OF MONK. They get 2 extra attacks at 8th-14th level OF MONK. They get 3 extra attacks at 15th+ level of MONK.
EDIT: I apologize! The above italicized text is correct!
Because FoB DOES work differently.
FoB (per the FAQ) is not just based on Monk level, it's based on BaB (which while Flurrying is equal to Monk level).
A Monk 1/Fighter 10 Flurries as an 11th level Monk (since he has +10 BaB, which goes up to +11 in Flurry), so he'd have an attack routine of 9/+9/+4/+4/–1 in Flurry.
Now he still only has a BaB of +10 when NOT flurrying, so he doesn't get that 3rd normal attack (2nd iterative) from +11 BaB.
Flurry is weird, and doesn't really follow normal multiclass conventions.
Because FoB DOES work differently.
FoB (per the FAQ) is not just based on Monk level, it's based on BaB (which while Flurrying is equal to Monk level).
A Monk 1/Fighter 10 Flurries as an 11th level Monk (since he has +10 BaB, which goes up to +11 in Flurry), so he'd have an attack routine of 9/+9/+4/+4/–1 in Flurry.
Now he still only has a BaB of +10 when NOT flurrying, so he doesn't get that 3rd normal attack (2nd iterative) from +11 BaB.
Flurry is weird, and doesn't really follow normal multiclass conventions.
This is exactly my argument (FoB dose work diffrently) and while most people agree this is the way its supposed to be there are the few who, until a dev has explained every aspect. don't want to accept this.
Though since im not 8th lvl monk I don't gain the second off hand and would only have 4 attack not 5
Also some of the other players at the table said that it would be over powered if I DID get the extra attacks from high BAB. (mind you this would only give me 4 attacks in total) they have no problem with a barbarian with a few natural attacks and haste to make 7+ attacks a round when full attacking
Just one extra attack for first level monk. They don't get the second attack till level 8.
Durngrun is right, the rules in the monk section clearly state that a monk gets 1 extra attack at 1st level, 2 extra attacks at 8th level, and 3 extra attacks at 15th level. It doesn't say "character level", and therefore is explicitly referring to MONK levels.
It also specifically mentions "like Two-Weapon Fighting", etc. This indicates that it's "like" gaining a bonus feat.
The table is for single-class monks. By Rynjin's interpretation, a Monk 1/Fighter 10 would also qualify for Diamond Body. Do they? No.
Just one extra attack for first level monk. They don't get the second attack till level 8.
I know I only get one extra attack at lvl 1 from flurry of blows, but thats an off-hand attack and has nothing to do with my question, my question is in reguard to the PRIMARY attacks you get from a high BAB
Durngrun is right, the rules in the monk section clearly state that a monk gets 1 extra attack at 1st level, 2 extra attacks at 8th level, and 3 extra attacks at 15th level. It doesn't say "character level", and therefore is explicitly referring to MONK levels.
It also specifically mentions "like Two-Weapon Fighting", etc. This indicates that it's "like" gaining a bonus feat.
The table is for single-class monks. By Rynjin's interpretation, a Monk 1/Fighter 10 would also qualify for Diamond Body. Do they? No.
you are again talking about the off-hand attacks not the Primary
Monk BAB +1 (+2 with Flurry), Magus BAB +9
Combined BAB +10/+5
Flurry BAB (before -2 penalty): +11/+11/+6
Actually Flurry BAB (w/ penalty): +9/+9/+4As a 2nd level monk, you only add 1 additional attack at your highest BAB, then apply the -2 penalty.
As for Hero Lab, it sounds like there's a bug, in that it's not applying the -2 as a TWF penalty, but instead as a reduction to the BAB.
That's a Hero Lab issue, and you should contact them.
the minus 2 you get when you flurry dosn't change your BAB it just modifies your attack roll, so when I flurry and my BAB becomes +11 I should have 3 attacks from my BAB alone at +11/+6/+1 becuase i have 2 levles in monk i get one aditional attack at my highest BAB of +11
So when using FoB all attacks take a -2 modifier (not a reduction in my BAB) so my attacks would end up +9/+9/+4/+-1 as I already stated.
I apologize! I shouldn't still be awake! :P
I corrected my first post.
Yes, you should have +9/+9/+4/-1 before other mods.
If Hero Labs is only showing +9/+9, then they are in error, not you!
Okay, off to bed...
The table is for single-class monks. By Rynjin's interpretation, a Monk 1/Fighter 10 would also qualify for Diamond Body. Do they? No.
No, by my logic a Monk 1/Fighter 10 would Flurry like an 11th level Monk.
Not any other ability.
However, going back to look at it I was mistaken. He should have 1 less attack (+9/+9/+4/-1), without the extra +4 attack, I read it wrong.
He quoted it here, and I missed it:
"Note that other increases to your base attack bonus
do not increase the number of attacks you can make with
your off hand, as the bonus feats to gain these attacks are
not gained until you reach the required level of monk."
Case closed, I believe.
Well after back and forth e-mails with Mathias Gehl from Lone Wolf Development Support, and him browsing the Paizo forms its seems the issue should be fixed soon for HL and eventually the Multiclass Monk FoB questions will finally come to a rest. Thanks again guys for the help and putting up with another FoB thread.
dark, I think what you are missing from the equation is the 5th printing errata to the flurry of blows ability. They removed all speculation in that, clearly specifying that it adds the BAB of other classes.
You are also correct that you don't get the extra free 'off-hand' attacks if you don't have the appropriate monk levels.
Edit: N'mind.. you had that quoted and bolded.. you're just *right*. You can point out that it was clarified with the 5th printing though.
All of the FoB questions are making my head hurt.
Can I just pretend I Flurry at the Monk level equivalent of my combined class levels? I don't care about the extra attacks, I just want the full bab.
Simply put BAB form non monk lvl + your monk lvl = your BAB when you Flurry, its simple to figure out how many attacks you have based on BAB alone
then you add in the extra attacks for 1st 8th and 15th lvl monk if you have reached those levels
That's about all there is... (besides adding in appropriate modifiers to the final attack roll)
dark, I think what you are missing from the equation is the 5th printing errata to the flurry of blows ability. They removed all speculation in that, clearly specifying that it adds the BAB of other classes.
You are also correct that you don't get the extra free 'off-hand' attacks if you don't have the appropriate monk levels.
Edit: N'mind.. you had that quoted and bolded.. you're just *right*. You can point out that it was clarified with the 5th printing though.
Ah this is more helpfull seeing as how I have the 2nd Printing of the book and 4th printing of the PDF I do have the eratta's downloaded but I guess I failed to check those for extra clarification.