Warning: Slight non-graphic sexual content.
In a campaign of mine, the party sorceress(human 15, soomewhat of a wild child, chaotic neutral) hopelessly fell in love with the party cleric(human 27, neutral good) after he displayed some amazing feats of heroism(natural 20's on attribute/skill checks, saving her life twice, that sort of thing).
Said Cleric, however, is searching for his missing love interest, and shrugs off any and all attempts of the Sorceress.
Now, the sorceress in a fit of youthful spite and deviousness(she's got a temper on her, and wisdom was a dump stat), plans to secretly still have him father a child on her, and take it from there, not taking no for an answer.
Her basic idea was to use magic jar during the night, to try and take over the sleeping cleric, walk over to her own room and have sex with her own lifeless body until eventually she will conceive a child.
Now, the weirdness and f+#%ed-up-ness of the situation aside(both players are married guys in their 20's that are experienced RP'ers...just saying no Out-of-Game stuff is spilling over into the game here), some questions arose:
I know a sleeping Character is helpless, and gets his Will Save.
However, on a successfull Save, will he wake up? Does he know something is wrong? Or will he just happily go on sleeping?
(We ruled that the automatic save against further possession attempts is per casting of the spell, not per character globally...the wording is a bit unclear on that.)
On that same note, if she succeeds in taking over his body, and his life force is imprisoned in the gem(which is already in his possession courtesy of a magic item she crafted him and decorated with it), will he happily stay helplessly sleeping the night away in that gem until his body returns or would that wake him up?
Either way, i suppose he's not able to remember whatever his body did, and the question is, IF he wakes up in the gem, then his body returns and she shifts back, he will suddenly be in his own body again and wake up physically....would he reasonably just take that as a nightmare or does he KNOW something is off(that is, is he entitled to a spellcraft-check? In the Gem/after waking?).
Also, i know there's "Detect Pregnancy" but other than that i found little in the rules...i know 3.5 had some. But is there anything RAW that would help her conceive(magically) or some indication of how long she will be doing this before successful? (Or should i just rule a D20 roll each night and on a 20 she succeeded?)
I would give it a % chance for the person to wake up. I would say that if they do wake up, that the cleric would not know who was trying to take over his body unless their minds have linked before.
MordredofFairy wrote: Now, the weirdness and f+%+ed-up-ness of the situation aside *carefully shelves this-is-messed-up protests*
MordredofFairy wrote: I know a sleeping Character is helpless, and gets his Will Save.
However, on a successfull Save, will he wake up? Does he know something is wrong? Or will he just happily go on sleeping?
A character who succeeds at a save vs a magical effect feels a hostile tingle. It's automatically perceived when awake (implied DC 0) so I would give a DC 10 perception check (modified by the usual +10 for being asleep) to perceive it while asleep and wake up, aware of the intrusion. In this case, the cleric would not know exactly what happened but he would be aware that someone had tried to use hostile magic on him while he slept. If he fails the check he is none the wiser.
MordredofFairy wrote: (We ruled that the automatic save against further possession attempts is per casting of the spell, not per character globally...the wording is a bit unclear on that.) I think you're correct on that.
MordredofFairy wrote: On that same note, if she succeeds in taking over his body, and his life force is imprisoned in the gem(which is already in his possession courtesy of a magic item she crafted him and decorated with it), will he happily stay helplessly sleeping the night away in that gem until his body returns or would that wake him up? This one's a little fuzzier in the RAW but I would probably give the same DC 10 perception check to notice while sleeping that as you left your body your sense of proprioception suddenly stopped working. Success = mind regains consciousness. Failure = remains unconscious and unaware.
MordredofFairy wrote: Either way, i suppose he's not able to remember whatever his body did, and the question is, IF he wakes up in the gem, then his body returns and she shifts back, he will suddenly be in his own body again and wake up physically....would he reasonably just take that as a nightmare or does he KNOW something is off(that is, is he entitled to a spellcraft-check? In the Gem/after waking?). Identifying an active spell effect (rather than a spell being cast) is actually Knowledge (arcana), which makes things a little more difficult for your average cleric. The DC to identify magic jar is 25. I would probably allow an easier check - maybe DC 10 Arcana, or DC 20 Wisdom check - to recognize that he is under the effect of some form of magic rather than having a vivid nightmare, without identifying the specific effect. Don't think it matters if he gets it in the gem or after waking since he's helpless while in the gem anyway. I'd assume that if his trapped mind regains consciousness he would abruptly "wake up" on being returned to his body.
MordredofFairy wrote: Also, i know there's "Detect Pregnancy" but other than that i found little in the rules...i know 3.5 had some. But is there anything RAW that would help her conceive(magically) or some indication of how long she will be doing this before successful? (Or should i just rule a D20 roll each night and on a 20 she succeeded?) As far as I know there's no spell to guarantee conception, though if it exists it would probably be connected to worship of Lamashtu. If you google "odds of pregnancy per instance of unprotected intercourse" you'll see that 1 in 20 is a decent (slightly high) estimate for a randomly timed encounter. However, odds go up to 25% for particularly fertile portions of a woman's cycle. I'd give the sorceress a Heal or Knowledge (Nature) check to improve her odds by timing - probably DC 10 to get 10% or DC 15 to get 25% chance of pregnancy.
Assuming the cleric and sorc both have a casting stat of 20 and are 9th level (minimum to cast magic jar) and the cleric has no ranks in perception or items improving his saves while he sleeps, this means the chances are:
- 48% that he makes both his save and perception check and wakes up aware of an attempt at hostile magic.
- 12% that he makes his save but fails the perception check and slumbers on.
- 32% that he fails his save but becomes aware of being out-of-body, at which point his odds of identifying Magic Jar are probably slim to none but his odds of identifying magic in general are 30-50%.
- 8% that he fails both save and perception check and has no inkling of the incident.
Since she's got at best a 10% chance of successfully possessing him and conceiving, and he's got about a 60% chance of noticing some sort of hostile magic, odds are good the party will be on the alert before she conceives.
To take this for a weird(er) stint...couldn't you make a clone of the cleric and then "harvest" the needed material. Of course getting the flesh might be difficult...
Simulacrum might work too.
Why not suggestion? If him not knowing that it happened is that important there is this spell:
Sequester Thoughts
You can ask him to willingly submit to your spell afterward as part of the suggestion.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
This brings new meaning to the rule that states "sleeping characters are considered willing."
Please remember that you cannot effectively choose targets while using magic jar. If you are camping outside with the party, you could just as easily wake up in the body of the hairy dwarven fighter, or worse, he could wake up thinking he is under attack and alert the party thereby causing unwanted suspicions.
It's even worse in an inn, where you could accidentally end up inside any number of NPCs instead of your cleric stud.
Also, this is clearly rape. And that's bad.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
MordredofFairy wrote: Now, the weirdness and f@*&ed-up-ness of the situation aside(both players are married guys in their 20's that are experienced RP'ers...just saying no Out-of-Game stuff is spilling over into the game here) Not everything in this game requires mechanics to resolve. You could just ask the two guys if this working is something that they both want to role-play and, if so, auto success.
Yes, it's rape. If they both want to explore the consequences of one party member doing that to another, fair enough.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
That's probably the best way to handle it, Brock.
Weirdo wrote: MordredofFairy wrote: Now, the weirdness and f+%+ed-up-ness of the situation aside *carefully shelves this-is-messed-up protests* thanks, and let me also thank you again for the elaborate and detailed answers provided.
Weirdo wrote: MordredofFairy wrote: I know a sleeping Character is helpless, and gets his Will Save.
However, on a successfull Save, will he wake up? Does he know something is wrong? Or will he just happily go on sleeping?
A character who succeeds at a save vs a magical effect feels a hostile tingle. It's automatically perceived when awake (implied DC 0) so I would give a DC 10 perception check (modified by the usual +10 for being asleep) to perceive it while asleep and wake up, aware of the intrusion. In this case, the cleric would not know exactly what happened but he would be aware that someone had tried to use hostile magic on him while he slept. If he fails the check he is none the wiser. Hm, it sounds reasonable that he perceives something on making the perception check, but would you automatically wake up from that?
I found the part in Magic about it saying
"A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack."
So i'm quite fine with having him do that perception check on this, but i am wondering if he should automatically wake up from that and KNOW that the source was magic. Of course having a bad dream every night would seem weird, but it seems pretty unclear...for all i know he could feel that hostile tingle and continue sleeping, with the dream he has taking a turn for the worse, but not waking up-
Basically i am unsure on how "intense" the feeling of having saved while sleeping is, but i suppose i'll go with the DC 10 check unless something else comes up.
Weirdo wrote: MordredofFairy wrote: On that same note, if she succeeds in taking over his body, and his life force is imprisoned in the gem(which is already in his possession courtesy of a magic item she crafted him and decorated with it), will he happily stay helplessly sleeping the night away in that gem until his body returns or would that wake him up? This one's a little fuzzier in the RAW but I would probably give the same DC 10 perception check to notice while sleeping that as you left your body your sense of proprioception suddenly stopped working. Success = mind regains consciousness. Failure = remains unconscious and unaware.
Hm, while not unreasonable, I'm not really inclined to give him the "double check" no matter if he saves or not. At least not at DC 10, i'd at least add a "distracted" as well courtesy of his mind either being out or possible passing this up as dreaming-so DC 15 for this one.
Weirdo wrote: MordredofFairy wrote: Either way, i suppose he's not able to remember whatever his body did, and the question is, IF he wakes up in the gem, then his body returns and she shifts back, he will suddenly be in his own body again and wake up physically....would he reasonably just take that as a nightmare or does he KNOW something is off(that is, is he entitled to a spellcraft-check? In the Gem/after waking?). Identifying an active spell effect (rather than a spell being cast) is actually Knowledge (arcana), which makes things a little more difficult for your average cleric. The DC to identify magic jar is 25. I would probably allow an easier check - maybe DC 10 Arcana, or DC 20 Wisdom check - to recognize that he is under the effect of some form of magic rather than having a vivid nightmare, without identifying the specific effect. Don't think it matters if he gets it in the gem or after waking since he's helpless while in the gem anyway. I'd assume that if his trapped mind regains consciousness he would abruptly "wake up" on being returned to his body.
Yep, you are right, Knowledge(arcana)...the DC would be rather pointless though, even if i lower it a bit, he's not got a single skill rank in it. But allowing him a Wisdom-Check to realize it's a spell after waking with a perception check after the failed save could be reasonable, yes.
Weirdo wrote: MordredofFairy wrote: Also, i know there's "Detect Pregnancy" but other than that i found little in the rules...i know 3.5 had some. But is there anything RAW that would help her conceive(magically) or some indication of how long she will be doing this before successful? (Or should i just rule a D20 roll each night and on a 20 she succeeded?) As far as I know there's no spell to guarantee conception, though if it exists it would probably be connected to worship of Lamashtu. If you google "odds of pregnancy per instance of unprotected intercourse" you'll see that 1 in 20 is a decent (slightly high) estimate for a randomly timed encounter. However, odds go up to 25% for particularly fertile portions of a woman's cycle. I'd give the sorceress a Heal or Knowledge (Nature) check to improve her odds by timing - probably DC 10 to get 10% or DC 15 to get 25% chance of pregnancy.
Assuming the cleric and sorc both have a casting stat of 20 and are 9th level (minimum to cast magic jar) and the cleric has no ranks in perception or items improving his saves while he sleeps, this means the chances are:
48% that he makes both his save and perception check and wakes up aware of an attempt at hostile magic.
12% that he makes his save but fails the perception check and slumbers on.
32% that he fails his save but becomes aware of being out-of-body, at which point his odds of identifying Magic Jar are probably slim to none but his odds of identifying magic in general are 30-50%.
8% that he fails both save and perception check and has no inkling of the incident.
Since she's got at best a 10% chance of successfully possessing him and conceiving, and he's got about a 60% chance of noticing some sort of hostile magic, odds are good the party will be on the alert before she conceives.
The cleric did not spend points on perception, and has a wisdom of 18(including a +2 item), being melee-focused and mainly a support caster(buffs+heals).
The sorceress has 24(18 start with human bonus, 2 level-up-boni, +4 item) charisma.
She has ranks in Knowledge(Nature) being offspring of a Druid and Dryad and Verdant Bloodline(closest we could do, even though Dryad would be Fey, but close enough).
Point is, the player wanted to research/create a fertility-spell on her own(they are just about to level up).
As for the party going on alert: They did mess with a wizard antagonist capable of casting nightmare...so it would not be totally weirding them out if someone was "assaulted" during the night.
The thing is: With the kind of resources and dedication the sorceress is willing to put into this(including 2 spells known) I'm quite willing to give her a fair chance to succeed, while maintaining a fair chance for the cleric to eventually figure things out(and see how party dynamics go from there), so if something above seems biased, it may be because of that.
Ravingdork wrote: This brings new meaning to the rule that states "sleeping characters are considered willing."
Please remember that you cannot effectively choose targets while using magic jar. If you are camping outside with the party, you could just as easily wake up in the body of the hairy dwarven fighter, or worse, he could wake up thinking he is under attack and alert the party thereby causing unwanted suspicions.
It's even worse in an inn, where you could accidentally end up inside any number of NPCs instead of your cleric stud.
Also, this is clearly rape. And that's bad.
ah, but it needs line of effect from the crystal to the target creature(unlike caster to crystal...) so in the inn it seemed pretty clear if the gem was in his room, he would be the only valid target.
brock, no the other one... wrote: MordredofFairy wrote: Now, the weirdness and f@*&ed-up-ness of the situation aside(both players are married guys in their 20's that are experienced RP'ers...just saying no Out-of-Game stuff is spilling over into the game here) Not everything in this game requires mechanics to resolve. You could just ask the two guys if this working is something that they both want to role-play and, if so, auto success.
Yes, it's rape. If they both want to explore the consequences of one party member doing that to another, fair enough. thats the thing. This was not openly at the table yet, the sorceress player approached me with this after the game(also asking about fertility spells).
If it's possible, it will play out hidden, with nobody any wiser unless they uncover it.
As for it being a touchy subject, it's a mixed group of experienced players that plotted against each other in previous groups(playing evil is fun) to the point of several dying. They never really held it against one another, as long as the in-character reasoning was valid enough and it wasn't just to be mean to another player.
Robert A Matthews wrote: Why not suggestion? If him not knowing that it happened is that important there is this spell:
Sequester Thoughts
You can ask him to willingly submit to your spell afterward as part of the suggestion.
but if he succeeds at the save to suggestion, then at the save at sequester, or alarms party members, she would be revealed, right?
The basic idea is that she can stay "hidden" and really is not "forcing" him to do something, but rather borrows his body and does things to herself.
If yall think this is weird, I watched two men roleplay (the DM and my brother the wizard) a guardsman sexually advancing on an altered self wizard who was male but now female.
Roleplaying games get quite strange with magic thrown in the mix. Power Perversion Potential indeed.
Sorry, I'm on vacation and missed the response to my post. Hope this is still relevant.
MordredofFairy wrote: Hm, it sounds reasonable that he perceives something on making the perception check, but would you automatically wake up from that?
I found the part in Magic about it saying
"A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack."
So i'm quite fine with having him do that perception check on this, but i am wondering if he should automatically wake up from that and KNOW that the source was magic. Of course having a bad dream every night would seem weird, but it seems pretty unclear...for all i know he could feel that hostile tingle and continue sleeping, with the dream he has taking a turn for the worse, but not waking up-
Basically i am unsure on how "intense" the feeling of having saved while sleeping is, but i suppose i'll go with the DC 10 check unless something else comes up.
I generally read the perception check to notice something while asleep as including an automatic wake-up on success. After all, if you make your perception check to hear someone physically approaching your bed in the inn, you assume you wake up to confront the potential assailant rather than continue sleeping with a bad turn in your dream, don't you? The advantage of making your check is that you have a chance to confront the threat, not that you might be aware of it in the morning if you are still alive.
MordredofFairy wrote: Hm, while not unreasonable, I'm not really inclined to give him the "double check" no matter if he saves or not. At least not at DC 10, i'd at least add a "distracted" as well courtesy of his mind either being out or possible passing this up as dreaming-so DC 15 for this one. Sounds fair. Keep in mind though that even if the DC is equal, having failed his save against the spell he's still in a worse position for two reasons. First, the sorceress has his body. Second, he still has to make the check to determine that he's being affected by a spell (so he might just think he's having a nightmare).
MordredofFairy wrote: The cleric did not spend points on perception, and has a wisdom of 18(including a +2 item), being melee-focused and mainly a support caster(buffs+heals).
The sorceress has 24(18 start with human bonus, 2 level-up-boni, +4 item) charisma.
She has ranks in Knowledge(Nature) being offspring of a Druid and Dryad and Verdant Bloodline(closest we could do, even though Dryad would be Fey, but close enough).
Point is, the player wanted to research/create a fertility-spell on her own(they are just about to level up).
As for the party going on alert: They did mess with a wizard antagonist capable of casting nightmare...so it would not be totally weirding them out if someone was "assaulted" during the night.
The thing is: With the kind of resources and dedication the sorceress is willing to put into this(including 2 spells known) I'm quite willing to give her a fair chance to succeed, while maintaining a fair chance for the cleric to eventually figure things out(and see how party dynamics go from there), so if something above seems biased, it may be because of that.
Researching a fertility spell certainly seems fair. I would probably put a spell that can guarantee or prohibit conception at level 2, since it's similar in nature but not quite as wide-ranging as plant growth (level 3), and has no combat applications (though the sorceress might be able to use it later to make friends). But that's just a rough suggestion.
If her Cha is that much better than his Wis, he hasn't invested in relevant skills, and she has a fertility spell she does have a fair chance of success, especially if there's an easy scapegoat for “nightmares.” She'd have a 55% chance of taking over his body on the first try, in which case conception is guaranteed meaning she's essentially won. And even if she fails the first time around, she might very well get a second try since he has a 25% chance not to perceive the intrusion, and even if he does perceive it the party won't immediately suspect her as the source.
MordredtheFairy wrote: The basic idea is that she can stay "hidden" and really is not "forcing" him to do something, but rather borrows his body and does things to herself. The fact that she's borrowing his body and not compelling his mind doesn't make it any less wrong (though she may try to convince herself that it does).
Also, Sequester Thoughts is range personal - it only works on the caster. Modify Memory is for others.
just tossing in a few copper here.
A 15th level sorcerer could easily research and create a spell to make herself more fertile, I think it would be rather cheap to do to considering the outcome is pure roleplaying.
Weirdo wrote: Sorry, I'm on vacation and missed the response to my post. Hope this is still relevant. Thanks, yes, it's still relevant. As said, close to level up, the sorceress player is delaying for sake of fertility spell and doing research on that now.
Weirdo wrote: MordredofFairy wrote: "A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack." I generally read the perception check to notice something while asleep as including an automatic wake-up on success. After all, if you make your perception check to hear someone physically approaching your bed in the inn, you assume you wake up to confront the potential assailant rather than continue sleeping with a bad turn in your dream, don't you? The advantage of making your check is that you have a chance to confront the threat, not that you might be aware of it in the morning if you are still alive.
While i generally agree that making perception checks will "alert" you to something, that is, wake you up on e.g. steps approaching your bed, here, the perception check is already "custom-ruled" as by RAW, it's "automatic".
What got me thinking is that "you cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack". That, to me, means you have some weird deja-vu-like "feeling of something" without even beeing aware that what just happened was magic...just that you had some weird feeling of hostility wash over you.
Now, basing on that, i am unsure if that should be intense enough to a.: wake someone up every time, and b.: if that unspecified weird feeling is enough to make him do anything but try and sleep on.
So in general, it's the muddy way with how successful saves without physical effects "interact" with characters minds that has me be unsure, not the way perception is handled.
Weirdo wrote: First, the sorceress has his body. Second, he still has to make the check to determine that he's being affected by a spell (so he might just think he's having a nightmare). I actually saw it in a way that if he wakes after failing the save, he'd have a more reasonable chance to figure out "something is wrong". E.g. why is he sweaty, why is he feeling relaxed and satisfied(due to the after-orgasm chemical release of the brain) in such a weird situation, etc....he may not pinpoint it to a certain spell, but it would seem more clear that something is up...and a "nightmare" spell would be out of the question in this case considering the effect whatever happened had on him.
IF he figures out something is really wrong and wakes up. But no hostile jingle here, so yeah, sleeping+distracted seems fine+fair to me.
Weirdo wrote: Researching a fertility spell certainly seems fair. I would probably put a spell that can guarantee or prohibit conception at level 2, since it's similar in nature but not quite as wide-ranging as plant growth (level 3), and has no combat applications (though the sorceress might be able to use it later to make friends). But that's just a rough suggestion.
If her Cha is that much better than his Wis, he hasn't invested in relevant skills, and she has a fertility spell she does have a fair chance of success, especially if there's an easy scapegoat for “nightmares.” She'd have a 55% chance of taking over his body on the first try, in which case conception is guaranteed meaning she's essentially won. And even if she fails the first time around, she might very well get a second try since he has a 25% chance not to perceive the intrusion, and even if he does perceive it the party won't immediately suspect her as the source.
Yeah, i would have placed the fertility spell at Level 2 too. And yes, i also made it "guarantee or prohibit". I was, however, considering instead offering a cantrip that simply "increases"(or nullifies) fertility chances, that is, makes it more likely without guaranteeing success. Seems like a likely spell for NPC-Adepts in villages everywhere as well.
The sorceress is big on nature, so presenting an option that does seem more "natural" with some hints that more powerful magic could affect the unborn child could be a hook for her that denies her insta-success after the first time she pulls that stunt.
As said, looking at giving a fair chance, but preferably to both of them. That said, she's willing to burn a 2-nd level slot for it, too, the cantrip is my idea, so she's not trying to get off easy.
Any reason though why that would not be acceptable?
Weirdo wrote: The fact that she's borrowing his body and not compelling his mind doesn't make it any less wrong (though she may try to convince herself that it does). Ah, well, i suppose it's a thing about group views. In her eyes, the soul and personality are worth more than the body and "hull".
As said, she's very "nature"-based, and stuff like reincarnation is not unknown in her family-line, plus her father was wildshaping regulary.
So it's rather based on the in-character views.
And in-character, she'd be more pissed/vengeful if you charmed/suggested/dominated her to do some menial task than if you'd "abused" her body in the magic-jar way...don't read that wrong, she'd still feel violated and be pissed, but if you mess with her mind(overriding her free will), she'd take it more personal than if her body is turned into a "sex toy" in her "mental absence".
To her(and her Druid Mentor who is taking a break from gaming currently), the body is just a changing, possibly temporary vessel, and the true person is the inviolable soul.
So yeah, the PLAYER is aware that it's still "wrong", but in-character, she can justify this morally as totally not evil except working against the interests of a friend(but that being the cost for furthering her own interests which she deems more important in this case.)
MordredofFairy wrote: While i generally agree that making perception checks will "alert" you to something, that is, wake you up on e.g. steps approaching your bed, here, the perception check is already "custom-ruled" as by RAW, it's "automatic".
What got me thinking is that "you cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack". That, to me, means you have some weird deja-vu-like "feeling of something" without even beeing aware that what just happened was magic...just that you had some weird feeling of hostility wash over you.
Now, basing on that, i am unsure if that should be intense enough to a.: wake someone up every time, and b.: if that unspecified weird feeling is enough to make him do anything but try and sleep on.
So in general, it's the muddy way with how successful saves without physical effects "interact" with characters minds that has me be unsure, not the way perception is handled.
It's no more muddy than any other sensory experience. You hear a loud metallic clattering. You cannot deduce the exact nature of the sound - has someone dropped pots, or tripped over a suit of armour? But if you've heard metal falling before you'll know it was caused by something metal-like, and if you hear it while asleep (making a perception check) you will wake up.
If you feel the hostile tingle of a successful save, you can't deduce the exact nature of the attack - did that bard just try to charm you, or did the cloaked figure in the corner attempt a sleep spell? But if you've been subject to hostile magic (as a high-level cleric will have been) you'll know that some sort of hostile magic was the cause, and if you feel it while asleep you will wake up.
If you want you can rule that at Perception result of 10-14 the cleric wakes up, and on a 15 or better he knows why, but I don't feel that that accurately reflects the nature of the sensation involved or the intent in the rules that its general nature, if not its exact nature, be clear.
EDIT: as for this being not RAW, part of a GM's job is to come up with DCs for tasks not clearly listed in the CRB, and it's pretty intuitive that something that you would normally notice "automatically" would have DC 0 before conditional modifiers. Note that to notice a visible creature is DC 0.
MordredofFairy wrote: I actually saw it in a way that if he wakes after failing the save, he'd have a more reasonable chance to figure out "something is wrong". E.g. why is he sweaty, why is he feeling relaxed and satisfied(due to the after-orgasm chemical release of the brain) in such a weird situation, etc....he may not pinpoint it to a certain spell, but it would seem more clear that something is up...and a "nightmare" spell would be out of the question in this case considering the effect whatever happened had on him.
IF he figures out something is really wrong and wakes up. But no hostile jingle here, so yeah, sleeping+distracted seems fine+fair to me.
Could go either way. Might also be mistaken for succubus activity.
MordredofFairy wrote: Yeah, i would have placed the fertility spell at Level 2 too. And yes, i also made it "guarantee or prohibit". I was, however, considering instead offering a cantrip that simply "increases"(or nullifies) fertility chances, that is, makes it more likely without guaranteeing success. Seems like a likely spell for NPC-Adepts in villages everywhere as well.
The sorceress is big on nature, so presenting an option that does seem more "natural" with some hints that more powerful magic could affect the unborn child could be a hook for her that denies her insta-success after the first time she pulls that stunt.
As said, looking at giving a fair chance, but preferably to both of them. That said, she's willing to burn a 2-nd level slot for it, too, the cantrip is my idea, so she's not trying to get off easy.
Any reason though why that would not be acceptable?
Giving the option to research a cantrip that increases odds or a level 2 spell that guarantees it sounds fair, as does possible complications on the more powerful version. You're largely in RP land with the latter.
It does sound like interesting RP if you think your table will be up for it.
Weirdo wrote: MordredofFairy wrote: While i generally agree that making perception checks will "alert" you to something, that is, wake you up on e.g. steps approaching your bed, here, the perception check is already "custom-ruled" as by RAW, it's "automatic".
What got me thinking is that "you cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack". That, to me, means you have some weird deja-vu-like "feeling of something" without even beeing aware that what just happened was magic...just that you had some weird feeling of hostility wash over you.
Now, basing on that, i am unsure if that should be intense enough to a.: wake someone up every time, and b.: if that unspecified weird feeling is enough to make him do anything but try and sleep on.
So in general, it's the muddy way with how successful saves without physical effects "interact" with characters minds that has me be unsure, not the way perception is handled.
It's no more muddy than any other sensory experience. You hear a loud metallic clattering. You cannot deduce the exact nature of the sound - has someone dropped pots, or tripped over a suit of armour? But if you've heard metal falling before you'll know it was caused by something metal-like, and if you hear it while asleep (making a perception check) you will wake up.
If you feel the hostile tingle of a successful save, you can't deduce the exact nature of the attack - did that bard just try to charm you, or did the cloaked figure in the corner attempt a sleep spell? But if you've been subject to hostile magic (as a high-level cleric will have been) you'll know that some sort of hostile magic was the cause, and if you feel it while asleep you will wake up.
If you want you can rule that at Perception result of 10-14 the cleric wakes up, and on a 15 or better he knows why, but I don't feel that that accurately reflects the nature of the sensation involved or the intent in the rules that its general nature, if not its exact nature, be clear.
EDIT: as for this being not RAW, part of a GM's job is to come up with DCs for tasks not clearly listed in the CRB, and it's pretty intuitive that something that you would normally notice "automatically" would have DC 0 before conditional modifiers. Note that to notice a visible creature is DC 0. The problem with it, as i have it, is that it does not seem "clear" on the same level as it does to you.
Noticing a "visible creature" may be DC 0, but it's not "automatic" and modified by a number of modifiers.
A "visible creature" in favorable conditions(quite empty plains) that is 220 feet away not trying to hide would still be a DC 20 perception check, by RAW.
Also, sleeping just changes perception up beyond a +10 modifier. If you disregard active senses and total cover, a person 50 feet away, visible, making no sound and producing no smell, would be a DC 15 check to notice for a sleeping person. Your average adventurer could take 10 to make that check....except it's not possible, because your visual senses are impaired while sleeping.
That same way, i would see your "logical and emotional" senses impaired. Dreams are not utterly realistic, and some(nightmares and erotic dreams especially) very emotional. In that context, i wonder if that "tingle" will get through and cause you to wake up every single time.
Now, I am not looking to discuss the validity of different perception checks, assuming this "automatic" feeling of hostility even IS a perception check. Just trying to show there's somwhat of a different "pull" with things here.
As for the hostile tingle: I suppose you could read it as "you KNOW there was an attack, but have no idea what kind of" while i read it as "you have no idea of the exact nature of what just happened, but feel a strangely hostile feeling wash over you".
I can see the first interpretation be more reasonable to "automatically wake up" as being a more intense feeling of threat.
As said, since the successful save does NOT, even when awake and fully focused, give a chance to "deduce the nature of the attack", and it seems as an "instantaneous" effect to me, i suppose i was somewhat looking for a way to differentiate between
1-8=He stays asleep, none the wiser.
9-15=He wakes from what seems a bad dream with goosebumps on his arms and a weird feeling about some unknown threat.
16-*=He wakes up knowing he was attacked in some way(with subsequent cumulative +2 circumstance boni on the 9-15 result after this result has been achieved at least once).
Weirdo wrote: Could go either way. Might also be mistaken for succubus activity. Well, if he's going to bed with a (extended) Magic Circle against Evil, that will already help him out somewhat, so mistaking it for the doings of an evil outsider will not be his worst course of action, and if the Sorceress has to stay up until his circle wears off or risk waiting until morning when other people may be awake, she's not getting her rest...not that she couldn't bluff that SHE was targeted that night and thats why her spells were not replenished.
Weirdo wrote:
Giving the option to research a cantrip that increases odds or a level 2 spell that guarantees it sounds fair, as does possible complications on the more powerful version. You're largely in RP land with the latter.
It does sound like interesting RP if you think your table will be up for it.
Ah, they definitely will be.
One of the reasons i am quite interested in this whole situation.
I know the sorceress would not quit adventuring after becoming a mother, and regardless of them finding out who the father is or not, the group would go to great lenghts to ensure the safety of the child...having that whole thing play out would be intriguing. Including the latter variant of the child possibly being affected, though i am almost certain she'd go with the cantrip in that case.
UPDATE: I just read a mail from the player...he's says he'll be on the lookout for a number of "Create Demiplane"-Scrolls of as high quality as possible, and a Permanency-Scroll.
I suppose i know where the sorceress intends to keep her baby.
And even more resources get expended for RP sake ;) thats gonna eat a huge chunk of her wealth, if she succeeds.
This has to be the weirdest thread I've read in quite a while.
MordredofFairy wrote: Noticing a "visible creature" may be DC 0, but it's not "automatic" and modified by a number of modifiers.
A "visible creature" in favorable conditions(quite empty plains) that is 220 feet away not trying to hide would still be a DC 20 perception check, by RAW.
Also, sleeping just changes perception up beyond a +10 modifier. If you disregard active senses and total cover, a person 50 feet away, visible, making no sound and producing no smell, would be a DC 15 check to notice for a sleeping person. Your average adventurer could take 10 to make that check....except it's not possible, because your visual senses are impaired while sleeping.
That same way, i would see your "logical and emotional" senses impaired. Dreams are not utterly realistic, and some(nightmares and erotic dreams especially) very emotional. In that context, i wonder if that "tingle" will get through and cause you to wake up every single time.
You are correct that there are additional modifiers that would apply due to distance or other unfavourable conditions, and that the GM is encouraged to use their discretion in modifying the DC. For example, it would make sense to rule that a sleeping character is effectively blind and cannot notice purely visual stimuli. The fact that your eyes are closed is a more unfavourable condition than the general impairment of all your senses while sleeping, which is covered by the +10 DC modifier.
You are free to rule that a sleeping character's emotional sense is impaired more than their hearing, smell, or touch would be and that a higher modifier than the general +10 should apply. I personally do not think this is necessary. I do not see any difference between the confusing emotional and auditory content of dreams. People sometimes muddle together sounds heard while sleeping with sounds in dreams, but that's included in the +10 modifier.
It is ultimately your game, your call. I'm just giving my suggestions & reasoning. The progression you suggested for being woken by vs actually recognizing the hostile magic sounds perfectly fair.
MordredofFairy wrote: Well, if he's going to bed with a (extended) Magic Circle against Evil, that will already help him out somewhat, so mistaking it for the doings of an evil outsider will not be his worst course of action, and if the Sorceress has to stay up until his circle wears off or risk waiting until morning when other people may be awake, she's not getting her rest...not that she couldn't bluff that SHE was targeted that night and thats why her spells were not replenished.
Umbral Reaver wrote: This has to be the weirdest thread I've read in quite a while. Heh, this isn't even the weirdest one I've seen today.
And I thought our plan to attack psionic spies by teaching the population they were attempting to infiltrate "What Does The Fox Say" was unusual player behavior.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
