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Realistic physics vs. magical explanations really aren't the point. It's a matter of inclusiveness, plain and simple.
When an underrepresented faction expresses that they are seeking inclusion and the empowered faction's retort is that their own enjoyment is king, that sends a pretty clear message: "You are not wanted, and your presence reduces our fun."
Isn't there another thread going on right now talking about how some members of our community would like to date other gamers? Somehow the message that is implied by disregarding someone's concerns doesn't strike me as the most diplomatic way of getting them to spend time with us.
Do I like fan-service? Well yeah, I still have a pulse. Does my enjoyment of the game or an animé hinge on whether I get fan service or not? Nope... Would my enjoyment of the game be lessened if every woman on the planet thought me a creep for my favorite hobby and didn't want to participate?
Yeah, that might impact things juuust a bit.
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I personally am far less annoyed with Seoni's outfit than I am with any character wearing boobplate. Seoni is a sorceress whose class features do encourage drawing her with a lack of armor. Though she is a "Ms. Fanservice" character, it doesn't come off as mind-numbingly stupid as putting a fighter in boobplate.
One note on Seoni - she needs better support for the girls, there. I mean, everyday walking is going to get pretty uncomfortable with her just hanging there, and she's not doing herself any favors for her future - they will begin sag without some support. It's the one thing I just can't avoid thinking everytime I see a drawing of Seoni's outfit. Even prestidigitation isn't an explanation - those things definitely weigh more than a pound total!
Why stop at removing boob plate? lets get rid of everything that's awesome but impractical! Give everyone new gray steel armor, except them mages. They need as much off as possible to avoid spellcasting failure.
I am for multi boobs, nothing wrong with that. Mr indignant no sense of humor almost annoying as Scott theJeff. ;-)
Realistic physics vs. magical explanations really aren't the point. It's a matter of inclusiveness, plain and simple.
When an underrepresented faction expresses that they are seeking inclusion and the empowered faction's retort is that their own enjoyment is king, that sends a pretty clear message: "You are not wanted, and your presence reduces our fun."
Umm, no. What I am saying that for one thousand years males wore ‘boob armor” to impress. Thus, I support a woman’s right to wear such to impress.
I also support their right to wear something asexual. Doesn't look as "cool" but functions better. But Alexander thought looking "cool" was important too.
It’s not ‘fan-service” if it’s based upon IRL. It’d only be ‘sexist” if we only had the males wear “boob armor” and said no women could be portrayed in it. Or if ALL the women and only women wore "dress to impress' garb.
And of course, one woman doesn’t have to right to speak for her entire sex.
So until a proper study is done I dont believe either side.
Indeed, this is a conversation about opinions.
You have just summed the thread up quite succinctly TOZ.
It's a talent.
Does anyone here see Seelah, the iconic paladin, and her boob plate as "fan service"?
MYTHIC TOZ.....
I wonder what a MYTHIC BRIAN BLESSED would be like...
Jess - the boob plate would be pointy and serrated. Imagine the gnoll saying come to momma for a hug.....
I suppose people who consider things in terms of being "fan service" or not might.
I am for multi boobs, nothing wrong with that. Mr indignant no sense of humor almost annoying as Scott theJeff. ;-)- Hey, that was mostly meant in humor. Bootstrapping off both your post and mine just above where I realized that the boobs in boobplate really don't have anything to do with the wearer's actual breasts. So why not more!
(Just because I have a sense of humor doesn't mean I'm funny.)
I edited in the smiley face - just joshing - few people have the skill to be as annoying as Scott ;-)
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And what I'm saying, Dr. Deth, is that's not the point.
Someone dressing to impress is their prerogative, I don't think anyone inclined to reasoned debate would dispute that. The point is about someone being dressed by others for the sake of "the other's" gratification. It's about being objectified... which is pretty much the exact opposite of personal expression.
- "Someone", in this case, being a conspicuous percentage of female characters depicted in fantasy artwork.
- "Others" being artists and those placing art orders.
- "Gratification" being either erotic or monetary because, ya know, sex sells... Or at least it sells to certain demographics if the artwork is overwhelmingly targeted at a particular demographic's common preferences.
I personally am far less annoyed with Seoni's outfit than I am with any character wearing boobplate. Seoni is a sorceress whose class features do encourage drawing her with a lack of armor. Though she is a "Ms. Fanservice" character, it doesn't come off as mind-numbingly stupid as putting a fighter in boobplate.One note on Seoni - she needs better support for the girls, there. I mean, everyday walking is going to get pretty uncomfortable with her just hanging there, and she's not doing herself any favors for her future - they will begin sag without some support. It's the one thing I just can't avoid thinking everytime I see a drawing of Seoni's outfit. Even prestidigitation isn't an explanation - those things definitely weigh more than a pound total!
I'm thinking that mage armor probably does that for her, and since it's invisible, does it with STYLE.
==Aelryinth
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One note on Seoni - she needs better support for the girls, there. I mean, everyday walking is going to get pretty uncomfortable with her just hanging there, and she's not doing herself any favors for her future - they will begin sag without some support. It's the one thing I just can't avoid thinking everytime I see a drawing of Seoni's outfit. Even prestidigitation isn't an explanation - those things definitely weigh more than a pound total!
Bigsby's Supporting Grope
I support boob plate armor and chainmail bikinis in every way.
I could totally see some Lamashtu worshiping female gnoll warrior wearing some exagerated 8 boob plate or something.
That would be pretty creepy.
Oh, well that's not too creepy.
Imagine the gnoll saying come to momma for a hug.....
And suddenly it is...
I could totally see some Lamashtu worshiping female gnoll warrior wearing some exagerated 8 boob plate or something.
That would be pretty creepy.
Oh, well that's not too creepy.
Imagine the gnoll saying come to momma for a hug.....And suddenly it is...
I do my best....
This conversation is not extensive or depraved enough... I would like to draw everybody's attention to groin plate for the male and female.
One note on Seoni - she needs better support for the girls, there. I mean, everyday walking is going to get pretty uncomfortable with her just hanging there, and she's not doing herself any favors for her future - they will begin sag without some support.
I think you might have just nailed the in-character justification behind Mythic Seoni's new duds. ;) Lord knows I can attest to her original dress not having any support that was not... "artificially induced". *cough*
Incidentally, I'd venture that cosplay is a prime example of personal expression trumping the motives of others.
8th Dwarf: I hear drawing attention to groin plate is a time-honored method for stress-testing it. ;)
The camel-toe of the camel: this chainmail bikini gives the wearer resistance to heat and sustenance... Unfortunately all clothing worn with the bikini clings to the wearer giving the appearance of severe camel-toe.
and the codpiece of exaggeration.
The wearer of the codpiece is under the effect of an enlarge spell... Unfortunately the codpiece is also exaggerated and un-wieldly the wearer is treated as encumbered. Also when giving measurements the wearer must give the measurements or estimations in a randomly determed multiple of the original number.
If someone tells you something is sexist, and you disagree, then you're g$#+%%n right I think you should make your opinion known. Just because one woman might find something sexist, that doesn't mean it's a universal opinion. And if you avoid all behavior that anyone could possibly find offensive, then I hope you enjoy your coma.
Although there might be someone out there who takes offense to people being in a coma. :P
If women should NEVER be told that their opinion on something is worthless, then why should a man suffer the same?
I'm assuming you don't want to encourage certain types of behavior. Like sexual assault and rape. So, how do you propose we draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable behavior?
When an underrepresented faction expresses that they are seeking inclusion and the empowered faction's retort is that their own enjoyment is king, that sends a pretty clear message: "You are not wanted, and your presence reduces our fun."Pretty much this.
"My expectation of seeing all women sexualized even under ridiculous and dangerous conditions totally trumps their desire to not get killed."
Or, "My desire to see ALL THE BEWBS trumps your desire to be able to play this game and not have to see your entire gender depicted as suicidally stupid and sexualized for my viewing pleasure."
Not very nice or welcoming messages, from any point of view other than heterosexual male. Do you really want RPG's to keep right on looking like the exclusive domain of the stereotypically nerdy male virgin who is incapable of relating to women except as unrealistically depicted fantasy sex objects? Because that is one of the effects of sticking boobs in dumb places, just because OMG BEWBS HURR DURR.
And DrDeth, have you ever fought in rigid armor where there was any single, small, uneven point of contact inside that would hit you first every time you took a heavy blow? Or is the entire point of heavy armor to dissipate that kind of force? How much fun is it when there is a knot in your padding that is large enough and hard enough to transmit force unevenly? How much less fun would that be if the fulcrum of impact was a small area of hard metal without any padding? Eg, the way boob armor is depicted?
FYI, ease up a little on the phallus wagging, there. I had my first fighting lessons from one of the original founding members of the SCA, and I am probably older and grumpier than you think.
What a magnificent straw man
What a magnificent straw man
It's not a straw man.
What a magnificent straw manIt's not a straw man.
First off, who said "I like boobs, ergo you must all play with boobplates which give suicidal stats, also women exist to be oogled"
Secondly, what heterosexual man would like that crap. The fact that he specifically says het male seems more like a personal grudge.
Thirdly, tabletop roleplaying game reputation matters so very little. EVERYTHING has a poor reputation.
Fourthly, if you dont like it, you can just...not draw your character in boob plates. It's a game played completely in your head, just imagine what you want.
Though I suspect it's the language he's using as i understand it, and not his/her's intent, he's acting like a total jackwad to just a straw man.
Oh my, the dreaded straw man, on whose evocation renders all parts of an argument null and void!
Well between that and all the legit 'SCA authority'.
What a magnificent straw manIt's not a straw man.First off, who said "I like boobs, ergo you must all play with boobplates which give suicidal stats, also women exist to be oogled"
Secondly, what heterosexual man would like that crap. The fact that he specifically says het male seems more like a personal grudge.
Thirdly, tabletop roleplaying game reputation matters so very little. EVERYTHING has a poor reputation.
Fourthly, if you dont like it, you can just...not draw your character in boob plates. It's a game played completely in your head, just imagine what you want.
Though I suspect it's the language he's using as i understand it, and not his/her's intent, he's acting like a total jackwad to just a straw man.
It has nothing to do with stats or how you imagine your character. No one seriously wants "boobplate" to be a actual in game armor type. Nor does anyone really care how you picture your character in your head. If you really want to imagine your paladin's armor coming with 38 DD steel boobs, go right ahead. If you focus too much on describing them, you'd creep me out, but as long as it's in your head, I don't care.
It's about artwork for the game. Both the sexualization of it and the depicted stupidity of the female characters who think that's a good choice of protection.
And finally, why do you care? Why are people so passionately attached to seeing metal boobs on armor? If seeing the stand-in boobs isn't important, then why all the fuss about it?
I care because I think you're wrong, and being human, I'm one to want to correct wrong things. Again, you're constructing another straw man. I've said before and never went back on saying I actually dislike how boob-plate looks. It's people like you who are so against it as to lable it vile and sexist that bother me.
We're fighting DRAGONS. The Monk is going out in to battle with said dragon BARE-HANDED like he's Macho Man Randy Savage. It's stupid to do any adventuring. Boob plate doesn't make females seem stupid. Going in to dungeons does that job real quick.
And you didn't answer half my points. But here's something for you: Why do YOU care so much about the artwork of the game? You obviously still play pathfinder, and you never have to spend 5 hours looking at the pictures. It's a rulebook.
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With regards to the SCA and their views on armour, I think that these people are about as reliable as asking a bunch of Airsofters questions about actual warfighting and life in the military.
Does your game HAVE to be an accurate reflection of real life? No, or there wouldn't be magic in it. But if you choose to depict characters in unrealistic armor, a good storyteller should be cognizant of how you are bending reality and why you are doing it.
And yet the thing being freaked out about is the so called boob-plate, which is apparently preposterous, however the magic and dragons and the party Monk-Norris punching down a stone tower with his bare hands apparently is less demanding of countless pages of debate.
The argument against 'boob plate' really boils down to offending morals and beliefs of some players, and any argument about it's safety is simply the mechanism by which they choose to attack it.
Perhaps boob-plate is actually somewhat practical in that it is less restrictive than wearing a full tin can? Perhaps in a world where you are MORE LIKELY to be killed by flaming dragon breath or lightning blasts you want to keep your actual armour to a certain level, perhaps you'd see the full armour as a 'death trap'.
Perhaps those awesome 'armour experts irl' could explain to us how the 'sensible' heavy armour is just fine when it comes to making reflex saves? How is it Fighters are doing full acrobatics and swimming around in the stuff as though it is lycra?
Or perhaps we just cut to the chase and accept that this is all just a conversation about personal beliefs and values, and not about the armour at all (other than its aesthetics)
Agreed. I mostly don't like it as the standard in published artwork. And primarily for the sexism/male gaze reasons.So... Would it be fair if we had equally attractive male costumes to compliment the women's? Female gaze is a trope too!
You should see the cone shaped codpiece on one of Henry xviii's later suits of armor. Very impressive and that's real life.
Does anyone here see Seelah, the iconic paladin, and her boob plate as "fan service"?
Yeah, that's her, Ms Fanservice, with super practicable gear like a bright red cloak , perfect for sneaking up on foes ( not to mention the who "no capes" routine)' along with that bright, shiny armor, also great for dungeon crawls.look her garb is ALL about HERE I AM, THE BRIGHT AND SHINING SYMBOL OF MY GOD, I am afraid of nothing! Of all the Iconics, she is the least Fanservice
Perhaps boob-plate is actually somewhat practical in that it is less restrictive than wearing a full tin can?
Isn't that what we call a breastplate?
You should see the cone shaped codpiece on one of Henry xviii's later suits of armor. Very impressive and that's real life.Agreed. I mostly don't like it as the standard in published artwork. And primarily for the sexism/male gaze reasons.So... Would it be fair if we had equally attractive male costumes to compliment the women's? Female gaze is a trope too!
I was hoping for something more shirtless to be honest. Not too keen on this codpiece thing.
What about "male boob plate" like some roman and Greek soldiers wore. Real world again and I don't hear anyone complaining that fake abs on armor attract blows.
I personally am far less annoyed with Seoni's outfit than I am with any character wearing boobplate. Seoni is a sorceress whose class features do encourage drawing her with a lack of armor. Though she is a "Ms. Fanservice" character, it doesn't come off as mind-numbingly stupid as putting a fighter in boobplate.One note on Seoni - she needs better support for the girls, there. I mean, everyday walking is going to get pretty uncomfortable with her just hanging there, and she's not doing herself any favors for her future - they will begin sag without some support. It's the one thing I just can't avoid thinking everytime I see a drawing of Seoni's outfit. Even prestidigitation isn't an explanation - those things definitely weigh more than a pound total!
okay, okay. GREATER prestidigitation.
What about "male boob plate" like some roman and Greek soldiers wore. Real world again and I don't hear anyone complaining that fake abs on armor attract blows.
And even if it did I suspect the wearer was intending to limit the odds of being hit in the first instance.
Though we both know this isn't really about the ability of the armour to deal with blows.
Isn't that what we call a breastplate?
Literally in this case, however is your reflex saving throw any different in a breastplate vs full plate? If not, why not?
Isn't that what we call a breastplate?Literally in this case, however is your reflex saving throw any different in a breastplate vs full plate? If not, why not?
Short answer: Nope! You can dodge a fireball just as well in a 50 pound monstrocity with -7 ACP while non proficient, as you can completely naked. Why? Who knows, likely related to being a 'simulationist' wanna be but not actually being able to take every number into account without become an unplayable mess.
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Short answer: Nope! You can dodge a fireball just as well in a 50 pound monstrocity with -7 ACP while non proficient, as you can completely naked. Why? Who knows, likely related to being a 'simulationist' wanna be but not actually being able to take every number into account without become an unplayable mess.
Awesome, so we can dispense with the rest of the 'realism' arguments about the protective pros and cons of boobplate and its characteristics when it comes to being hit.
The problem is when you sexualize one gender all over the place to the point of making them look really stupid, just for the viewing pleasure of the other gender, you send a message of exclusion.
Is that what's being done here though? In any form? I don't think I've seen 'boobplate' done to that extent except as a joke in a parody.