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According to the FAQ, Here it says, ”If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability.” Therefore, does Shinning Knights, “Divine Bond” count as the Paladin’s ability, “Divine Bond,” in regard to Oath Against the Wyrm’s, “Divine Bond” so I can combine them all on the same Paladin character?
Originally, I didn’t think so till I came across the FAQ question above. There is another FAQ question like this for the qinggong monk, Here. It says, “Can a qinggong monk take a second archetype if the character doesn't swap out abilities the second archetype requires?Yes.”
I’m doing research for another character for PFS. I do not wish to make mistakes about this. I surmise if I can use this combination, I can use the first FAQ for reference, or do I need another?
First of all, you got me a little bit confused, because in the title, you said "Oath against Fiends", which doesn't overlap with Shining Knight in any part.
But as for Oath against the Wyrm, you're good to go. The Shining Knight only takes away your option of bonding with a weapon, and the Oath changes your Divine Bond based on that choice (which the Shining Knight archetype already made for you).
Stupid as it seems, you could also combine Shining Knight with Oath of Charity (The oath completely replaces Divine Bond). In that case, the Shining Knight tells you what to choose for Divine Bond, but you still have that ability and can replace it.
(Although I don't know why anyone would want to play a Shining Knight without a mount.)
Isn't there a guide that shows which archetypes can be combined here somewhere?
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LOL, I can't believe I got them next up. I have a Oath Against Feinds, Oath of vengeance and bonded weapon Paladin and I messed things up. Oops, Consider this a copy and paste error, for goodness sakes.
Thanks guys for all of your replies. I'm just trying to get things right. Sorry, I never heard of a guide that combined archetypes.
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Isn't there a guide that shows which archetypes can be combined here somewhere?
There's one on giantitp: Archetype Combos. Is that the one you meant?
The FAQ seems to be referring to items or abilities that affect class abilities. Don't the archtype rules state that if an ability is altered that invalidates combinations with any other archtype which changes/refers to that same ability? If the two paladin archtypes alter divine bond in any way, they would be unable to be combined. All the FAQ does is allow an item to still enhance the archtypes abilities like it would on the 'normal' ability.
The monk FAQ is kind of a special case, as that archtype is essentially modular.
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Despite what the first responder said, I too agree that they can't be combined.
Archetypes are about give and take. You give a bit from the base class to get from the archetype. For illustration, when you modify a base ability, you give up all of the base ability to get back an ability that is mostly the same with some changes. When you replace an ability, you give up all of the base ability and get something completely different. Either way, you give up the base ability and get another one back from the archetype.
In your example, the Oath of the Wyrm Paladin gives up his Divine Bond to get back the modified Divine Bond from OotW. Despite have the same name, and this just being a modification of how it works, there was still a replacement of the base Divine Bond ability. Give and Take.
Shining Knight replaces Divine Bond with a version where you can only take a Bonded Mount.
In both cases, the base Divine Bond was replaced by a different version of Divine Bond (albeit a very similar version in one case). Because both modify, replace, affect, pertain to, restrict, etc. the Divine Bond base class feature, they can't be combined.
P.S. The one place where my explanation falls apart is with the spells gained from an Oathbound Paladin. Since each oath gives the character more spells and it explicitly says you can combine oaths, spells would have to be broken up into subabilities for this to make sense.
Agreed, this is a no go as they modify the same ability. The FAQ is talking about prerequisites and other things affected by the ability. Archetypes don't care whether it "counts as" something - if it modified the same one, you can't combine them.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.Emphasis, Mine.
By RAW, both archetypes (Oath Against the Worm and Shining Knight) alter the same class feature (Divine Bond). Therefore, they do not stack.
Now, there was a Qinggong Monk archetype FAQ ruling that muddied this whole thing up a bit, so my information may be slightly outdated... Looking closely at that ruling, however, reveals that it was not written in a generalized manner. Therefore, it is specific to only the Qinggong monk, so it is probably not relevant to this conversation.
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But as for Oath against the Wyrm, you're good to go. The Shining Knight only takes away your option of bonding with a weapon, and the Oath changes your Divine Bond based on that choice (which the Shining Knight archetype already made for you).
You all are assuming that Shinning Knight changes Divine Bond. Read Shinning Knight again and look for the phrase, "This replaces the standard divine bond ability." Notice it doesn't. Andreas is right, and I didn't notice this before, that Shinning Knight tells me I must choose the Paladin's ability to bond with a mount. It doesn't say that it replaces it.
If you look at Oath against Fiends, its ninth level ability replaces the mercy at ninth level no matter what I choose to bond with. Notice it says, "This ability has no effect for a paladin whose divine bond is with a mount. This ability replaces the mercy gained at 9th level." Therefore, it does say it replaces the ability no matter what I choose because it says so.
Not so with Shinning Knight's Divine Bond. All it says is I have to choose to bond with a mount. It does not say in Shinning Knight's Divine Bond that it replaces the ability.
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But as for Oath against the Wyrm, you're good to go. The Shining Knight only takes away your option of bonding with a weapon, and the Oath changes your Divine Bond based on that choice (which the Shining Knight archetype already made for you).You all are assuming that Shinning Knight changes Divine Bond. Read Shinning Knight again and look for the phrase, "This replaces the standard divine bond ability." Notice it doesn't. Andreas is right, and I didn't notice this before, that Shinning Knight tells me I must choose the Paladin's ability to bond with a mount. It doesn't say that it replaces it.
If you look at Oath against Fiends, its ninth level ability replaces the mercy at ninth level no matter what I choose to bond with. Notice it says, "This ability has no effect for a paladin whose divine bond is with a mount. This ability replaces the mercy gained at 9th level." Therefore, it does say it replaces the ability no matter what I choose because it says so.
Not so with Shinning Knight's Divine Bond. All it says is I have to choose to bond with a mount. It does not say in Shinning Knight's Divine Bond that it replaces the ability.
It doesn't have to replace it to prevent it stacking with another archetype. It just has to alter it. And it very clearly does alter Divine Bond; otherwise it wouldn't say "this otherwise functions as...". Thus, per the archetype rules, that archetype will not stack with any other archetype that replaces or alters that ability.
The operative word in this whole thing (from a rules standpoint) is "alter".
From the two archetypes you are looking at...
This works like the paladin’s normal divine bond ability, except... Emphasis, Mine.
Upon reaching 5th level, a shining knight must form a bond with a mount. This ability otherwise functions as the paladin ability.Emphasis, Mine.
I can see how a less strict reading of the Shining Knight's Divine Bond feature would indicate that the divine bond is not replaced, but I would defintiely classify the removal of a choice from the Divine Bond class feature as it being "altered".
As I said in the other thread, you should talk to your DM, as it seems a fairly reasonable modification to make.
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As I said in the other thread, you should talk to your DM, as it seems a fairly reasonable modification to make.
That is the key question for this PFS character. Since, I go around to other cons in the state of Florida, I am asking for some definite answer. I see many different GM's at these cons. If it is too controversial I surmise I can't do it.
The idea is to have a Shinning Knight, Oath Against the Wyrm and Fiends Half Orc with the Beast Rider feat, and have a flying mount. It will take a lot to make it work. The Pteranodon needs a lot of help and I am loosing a mercy at ninth level, and getting nothing in return. It works with the background story of the character and the theme of year five, the worldwound. If I have to make modifications I will.
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What you're trying to do seems perfectly reasonable and would work in a homegame with probably minimal pushback from your GM. The problem is, the devs write rules restrictively knowing that the GM has the right to modify the rules in his home game. PFS runs as strict of an interpretation of the rules as it can so that everyone is treated the same.
I have had plenty of mini tantrums when it comes to PFS rulings. I am not saying you're having one now, just that I understand the position of having a really cool idea that really should work...but, it just doesn't.
As I said in the other thread, you should talk to your DM, as it seems a fairly reasonable modification to make.
That is the key question for this PFS character. Since, I go around to other cons in the state of Florida, I am asking for some definite answer. I see many different GM's at these cons. If it is too controversial I surmise I can't do it.
The idea is to have a Shinning Knight, Oath Against the Wyrm and Fiends Half Orc with the Beast Rider feat, and have a flying mount. It will take a lot to make it work. The Pteranodon needs a lot of help and I am loosing a mercy at ninth level, and getting nothing in return. It works with the background story of the character and the theme of year five, the worldwound. If I have to make modifications I will.
I would start compiling those modifications, PFS runs on strict adherence to wording so modifying the divine bond to limit choices is a definite 'alteration' to the ability.
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I find the tables for the classes at d20pfsrd are very good. You should always verify that the two archetypes don't work, but any two combinations that I have disagreed on, I could see the other side of it. Their staff is also willing to change things on the site if you write them a note and explain it.
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I find the tables for the classes at d20pfsrd are very good. You should always verify that the two archetypes don't work, but any two combinations that I have disagreed on, I could see the other side of it. Their staff is also willing to change things on the site if you write them a note and explain it.
How do I get a hold of their staff? Is it their customer service? Where do I write on what messageboard to get a hold of their staff? Thanks for the idea I think it's a good one.
I find the tables for the classes at d20pfsrd are very good. You should always verify that the two archetypes don't work, but any two combinations that I have disagreed on, I could see the other side of it. Their staff is also willing to change things on the site if you write them a note and explain it.How do I get a hold of their staff? Is it their customer service? Where do I write on what messageboard to get a hold of their staff? Thanks for the idea I think it's a good one.
Well the problem with that is it isn't an official site, it is 3pp for all intents and purposes. Just because their chart says something, doesn't actually mean anything if they are wrong/mistaken. They are an outside source compiling information to help other gamers, but they have no association or special insight regarding the rules Paizo publishes. Even if you get ahold of them, you're just getting someone elses take on the question, just like what is occuring here.
If the chart were on Paizo's official PRD, that would be something you could go with, and the same in regards to answers from that site, but that is what this forum is for. And I'm fairly certain the answers to the negative are correct for the reasons given, most pertinent being the fact the ability is being altered.
Yeah, I'm sorry it doesn't work for you. =( Many a solid role playing concept has been quashed by rules over the years, I'm sure. But alas, there are FAR too many people who would abuse rules if they were instead guidelines, looking for loopholes wherever they could. (Heck, a lot of people do that as is, lol.)
My advice: Refer to your character as an "Shining iron clad knight who's really pissed off at Dragons" without taking one of the two archetype (your choice) and role play the hell out of it. Far too many people let the name of class/archetypes define the way they role play their character. Don't let the metagame stuff limit your character.
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I find the tables for the classes at d20pfsrd are very good. You should always verify that the two archetypes don't work, but any two combinations that I have disagreed on, I could see the other side of it. Their staff is also willing to change things on the site if you write them a note and explain it.How do I get a hold of their staff? Is it their customer service? Where do I write on what messageboard to get a hold of their staff? Thanks for the idea I think it's a good one.
There is a tab on the left side of the screen with contact info, just scroll down a bit. I don't think there is more than one, or maybe a few people, that work on the site.
As for it being 3PP, yes it is. But where they can legally reproduce the content, they do. If they can't use a name, they just change it, but you can figure it out. It still a very good resource even if it isn't a paizo site.
I find the tables for the classes at d20pfsrd are very good. You should always verify that the two archetypes don't work, but any two combinations that I have disagreed on, I could see the other side of it. Their staff is also willing to change things on the site if you write them a note and explain it.How do I get a hold of their staff? Is it their customer service? Where do I write on what messageboard to get a hold of their staff? Thanks for the idea I think it's a good one.There is a tab on the left side of the screen with contact info, just scroll down a bit. I don't think there is more than one, or maybe a few people, that work on the site.
As for it being 3PP, yes it is. But where they can legally reproduce the content, they do. If they can't use a name, they just change it, but you can figure it out. It still a very good resource even if it isn't a paizo site.
I could be incorrect on this, but it seemed the OP wanted to contact the site in an attempt to make sure the combo isn't actually restricted. That site has no say about the rules, and even if they say 'oh sure you can do it if you look at it that way' that response is completely useless when you walk into a PFS game. Because it isn't Paizo.