Hey guys, I'm new to the messageboards, and all. I'm about to start Rise Of The Runelords and I'm going to play a Ninja. The party also consists of a Rogue and a Sorcerer. We have three players. The GM may or may not make an NPC if she feels we're inadequately meeting combat challenges, but my goal is to meet them and surpass them. The goal is to have the ninja and rogue working in tandem to use SA at every opportunity. This means flanking, mostly, and working off of that. I'll also be using the kusarigama to make trip attacks at reach (thus avoiding AoOs most of the time, unless there's a rule about it I'm missing). The Sorcerer is going to be trying to go for control over blasty, so he may have some good options for our teamwork as well.
So my question is really what should my progression look like? Here's what I have so far.
Race: Human (Tien), with the racial trait to give me skill focus over the skill point per level. I'll have enough skill points to be more than effective. I considered fetchling, but I don't think darkness will play a big part in the way the GM will run the game, so I can use a Ninja Trick if it ever comes up.
Abilities: (rolled)
Str: 12
Dex: 20 (+2 racial bonus)
Con: 15
Int: 16
Wis: 14
Cha: 17
Traits:
Reactionary (+2 init)
Black Sheep (400 gp of poison and a contact)
Pride (Drawback)
Chosen Child (increases starting gp by 900 thus better than rich parents)
Skill focus Bluff (1st focused study)
Feats:
Weapon Finesse (1st level)
Improved Init (Human Bonus)
Other Notes: The campaign will use hero points, and the rolled abilities were monitored and used as my argument as to why we should use point buy, because let's face it, my abilities are just dumb good, right?
So my thoughts are to go TWF with wakizashis which I can buy MW at the gate with my extra cash and later work to upgrade with agile. I can either start a combat ambushing from stealth, or using shuriken for ranged SA, then close in with my Rogue buddy. At ten feet, use trip with kusarigama to set up my partner, then close in and flank with wakizashis. I will be getting quick draw.
What other feats should I take? Improved feint seems like a given almost, but it doesn't seem THAT useful, and I don't think I want to pay the feat tax to greater feint, but if I did, I'd also likely take wave strike. But TWF is a lot of feats on it's own, and I might be able to fish more SA out of just flanking and not worrying about feinting at all, or get a cohort to do it with leadership. Any suggestions? Would dipping fighter (two weapon archetype) be worth it for two levels? Will that hurt my SA damage too much? What about Hungry Ghost Monk for stealing ki back?
The human racial trait that gives you Skill Focus at first level (and 8th level, and 16th level; called Focused Study) doesn't replace your extra skill rank at each level...it replaces your first level bonus feat. So you are starting with an extra feat that wouldn't be available to you.
Your trait selection of money, money, money is not optimal in a long campaign, which Runelords is.
It is far better to have permanent static bonuses throughout your adventuring career as opposed to change in your pocket at first level. An extra 1300 gold at first level is merely a drop in the bucket.
Congrats on your ability scores, mechanically it would be hard to mess up regardless of what you played.
For rogue/ninjas I propose waiting until second level and taking Finesse Rogue with your first trick. I know the first level without Weapon Finesse can be rough, but tough through it with shuriken or a bow. By taking Two Weapon Fighting at first level, then picking up Finesse Rogue at second level, you're ready to slice things to ribbons. This also lets you keep Combat Trick around till a little later, picking up a feat with some more prereqs exactly when you want it at an even level.
That's my two cents, anyhow. Have fun with it, it's a great campaign.
Rhapsodic College Dropout wrote: The human racial trait that gives you Skill Focus at first level (and 8th level, and 16th level; called Focused Study) doesn't replace your extra skill rank at each level...it replaces your first level bonus feat. So you are starting with an extra feat that wouldn't be available to you.
Your trait selection of money, money, money is not optimal in a long campaign, which Runelords is.
It is far better to have permanent static bonuses throughout your adventuring career as opposed to change in your pocket at first level. An extra 1300 gold at first level is merely a drop in the bucket.
Congrats on your ability scores, mechanically it would be hard to mess up regardless of what you played.
For rogue/ninjas I propose waiting until second level and taking Finesse Rogue with your first trick. I know the first level without Weapon Finesse can be rough, but tough through it with shuriken or a bow. By taking Two Weapon Fighting at first level, then picking up Finesse Rogue at second level, you're ready to slice things to ribbons. This also lets you keep Combat Trick around till a little later, picking up a feat with some more prereqs exactly when you want it at an even level.
That's my two cents, anyhow. Have fun with it, it's a great campaign.
Yeah, you're right about the focused study. I don't know why it was in my head that it replaced skilled. So I won't take focused study. I don't need it that much, tbh.
Now would you take Finesse Rogue at second level over vanishing trick? It seems like Vanishing Trick is pretty crucial to getting SAs out on every turn. I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it, if you don't mind. I appreciate feedback and alternate perceptions on ways to run characters.
Ahhhhh Vanishing Trick. Sorry about that, I had Rogue on the brain. You're right, go with Vanishing Trick and pick up Two Weapon Fighting at third.
Always take vanishing trick. Combine that with the sorcerer taking the spell vanish and the rogue's necessary high stealth score and that'll be the key to your party surviving. Face facts, your party is pretty squishy, and there are beasts in Runelords that can one-shot each of you, especially at early levels.
I'm actually playing Runelords right now with a 5 player party. My Paladin has been the primary tank for most of it, taking hits that could drop the others. I'm also the only original character still in the game. Keep that in mind when you play. You won't always be the one sneaking into combat. Sometimes it'll go quite the opposite way.
I'd also agree on the money point that dropout made. Take traits that boost your saves, not your starting cash. You'll get money soon enough.
The rogue tag-team SA strategy is great against single, large targets. Getting into flanking position like that when fighting a room full of enemies will be almost impossible. Have a backup plan when you need to engage multiple opponents. The trip strategy sounds like a good plan, but you'll need to get snap shot to make ranged AoOs when they get up.
Lastly, I'd say don't bother with Improved Feint. I do like it with things like duelist builds, normally fighters who can spare the feats. You can't. TWF is a feat-intensive style, so stick with those.
Cool. Thanks for the insight, guys. It helps a lot. Snap shot sounds solid, though, I had intended on tripping, then five foot stepping into range. Snap shot would be a viable alternate strategy that could work with my shuriken.
So, what traits would you use? Have any good suggestions? My reflex save is going to be astronomical, but my will save could definitely use some padding. Is there anything else I should look at?
Any ideas for back up plans when we're in a room full of enemies that makes flanking less likely?
When SA isn't an option, you'll be depending on strength for damage, which for you is justifiably low, so taking a katana in two hands would hurt you cause of no finesse. There's always the poison sand tube option. Blast a cone of poisoned sand at the lot of them. Poison use if kind of your thing as a ninja anyway.
Get the Resilient trait for fortitude saves. Killer helps dish out more pain on crits. I think only some campaign traits help with will saves. Good thing your wisdom is pretty good.
Well, I've decided that my first real amount of money would go towards putting agile on two wakizashis, since that will allow me to add my dex to damage instead of strength. I wouldn't mind using a katana, but with 3/4th BAB and 12 Str, I'd be hurting for awhile.
I suppose another real question is just how squishy am I going to be at lower levels and how can I alleviate this? I have a +5 Dex bonus, so it seems like the way to go is Studded Leather giving me an AC of 18 at level one. I always see things quoting mithral armors as having a higher max dex bonus... but I've never seen in the rules where that is an effect of mithral. If it is, then maybe I can upgrade to a mithral chain shirt later?
Another note on the squishy aspect of things is that I have a d8 hit die, which is an average of one less than a fighter, and a +2 con bonus. Is toughness worth looking at? Or do you guys think I'd be okay? I think with my stats at low levels I am comparable to an average fighter, though I could be off base with that assumption. Let me know.
The good thing about level one is that it's not gonna kill you. 18 AC at level one is definitely a good start. Light armour proficiency can be a doll.
I think that with vanishing trick you can depend on being able to disappear when the hits start coming too hard so you can land SAs without flanking. You'll be leaving the rogue in the dirt a bit, but life's hard that way for rogues. Add the shadow clone trick later and you've just gotten a 75% miss chance even when visible.
I think you've got a good build overall. Take toughness if you have the feats to spare, but don't prioritize it unless you start dropping in combat too often. An unconscious ninja is a useless ninja.
Without spoiling anything, low levels of Runelords is going to be tough on a three person group regardless of class and stats. The action economy will be what does you in, but your gm might be all over the task of tailoring it to the group. Dual sneak attack is powerful when the positioning is good, but I think you party would be better served with more options over redundancies, but you didn't come here asking to be talked out of your party's class choices.
Aside from the points made by others, I would just emphasize the need to play to your strengths as rogues. No build advice i can give will help you, but tactics will. If you rush in to get flanking and sneak attacks, bad things will happen.
Never enter a fair fight. Be guerilla fighters, strike with surprise and fall back. Be a ranged party that gets into melee when it has softened up the opposition. Your sorcerer should be splintering groups into smaller groups that you rogues can quickly kill. I see a lot of grease in your sorcerer's early career. Scout objectives and use your charisma to get people to help you. Don't be a party of three, be the charismatic leaders of a group of lackeys.
I think you all could have a ton of fun in Runelords as scouts backed by the militia, so long as your gm encourages tactics and leadership.
TWF + Two weapon feint is good too.
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