Goblin Squad Member
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Any advantage to having multiple accounts is probably a failure of the incentive structure.I expect some folks will simply fail to understand this point.
Look, there are reasons to use multiple accounts that GW cannot change. No incentive can work for these reasons. Legit reasons. Think about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you go for a single account you will be hard pressed to specialise.
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I know I will get a 2nd account just for the fact I will need a dedicated gatherer / crafter since I am not going to risk my pvp char to lose skill training time because of the need to focus on that.
It sounds like you're not aware that you can train multiple characters on a single account at the same time. And you can also log those multiple characters on a single account into the game at the same time.
If you are aware of that, then could you please explain how it makes a difference whether you have your dedicated gatherer / crafter on a different account?
Link me to that article, I have been a bit rusty on looking up info, skill training on the same account I knew with the Destiny twins. But logging in with 2 chars of the same account I never saw (also, it is a pretty tough thing to do with any client since you are using data packages from the same client to be sent to the server and it can mess up things).
Now as said, I might be wrong and then I will rectify. But if GW goes with API, I will still use a 2nd account, for the simple fact I will want a neutral account that isn't affiliated with my pvp char and thus allowing me to transport stuff when my pvp char is in a war.
Thinking outside the box 101... learn it
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Goblin Squad Member
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Link me to that article...
There is no practical limit to how many characters you'll be able to train in parallel.
(This is my objective. Technical limitations beyond my control might affect this but at this time I see none.)
You will be able to log in more than one character on the same account. So you can run the client twice, or run the client on two computers logged into the same account. (This is commonly called "multiboxing").
(Ditto to previous disclaimer).
You MAY NOT be able to log in your Destiny's Twin character at the same time you are logged in to another character on that account. I haven't thought through all the complexities yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Look, there are reasons to use multiple accounts that GW cannot change. No incentive can work for these reasons. Legit reasons. Think about it.Any advantage to having multiple accounts is probably a failure of the incentive structure.I expect some folks will simply fail to understand this point.
I think you're missing the point. I've repeatedly acknowledged that there are legitimate reasons to use multiple accounts. I'm not going to just repeat myself over and over, but I think if you look hard enough, you'll get it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It sounds like you're not aware that you can train multiple characters on a single account at the same time. And you can also log those multiple characters on a single account into the game at the same time.Link me to that article, I have been a bit rusty on looking up info, skill training on the same account I knew with the Destiny twins. But logging in with 2 chars of the same account I never saw...
You will be able to log in more than one character on the same account. So you can run the client twice, or run the client on two computers logged into the same account. (This is commonly called "multiboxing").
I will still use a 2nd account, for the simple fact I will want a neutral account that isn't affiliated with my pvp char and thus allowing me to transport stuff when my pvp char is in a war.
Thinking outside the box 101... learn it
I'm not sure what you're suggesting I should learn. I'm also not sure why it seems to be so difficult for some to grasp that I'm not saying there aren't valid reasons to use multiple accounts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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also, it is a pretty tough thing to do with any client since you are using data packages from the same client to be sent to the server and it can mess up things
Logging into a server with two instances of the client on the same system isn't terribly difficult, provided the client and server communication is written to accept it. I've written some client/server applications that handled it without any cross-talk. I even did it with two different logins from the same client instance with no cross-talk.
There will always be reasons to have multiple accounts, regardless of the incentives to use a single account. Ryan's post touched on many of these. It's not a failure of the incentive structure, it's simply that the strategic advantage it grants outweighs the cons in some cases.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be absolutely horrible if they put in systems that made it possible for other players to know your characters were even on the same account, or that made one character on an account in any way responsible for any actions of another character on the same account.
The only consequence that should affect other characters on the account is if you get the account banned.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will always be reasons to have multiple accounts, regardless of the incentives to use a single account. Ryan's post touched on many of these. It's not a failure of the incentive structure, it's simply that the strategic advantage it grants outweighs the cons in some cases.
It would be really great if those strategic advantages were also available to players who used a single account.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be absolutely horrible if they put in systems that made it possible for other players to know your characters were even on the same account, or that made one character on an account in any way responsible for any actions of another character on the same account.
The only consequence that should affect other characters on the account is if you get the account banned.
Look up what the Eve API can show you, what it does and how it can be used.
It's called... paranoi. In a game like eve people are afraid of spies in the corp to be AWOX'ed, spies on comms, spies in fleet to fleet warp half of your fleet to have it whelped
etc etc etc.
If you don't want to use 2 accounts, that is your choice. But don't force your choice on people that are willing to pay for more accounts or put more effort / time in it for their gamestyle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be absolutely horrible if they put in systems that made it possible for other players to know your characters were even on the same account, or that made one character on an account in any way responsible for any actions of another character on the same account.
The only consequence that should affect other characters on the account is if you get the account banned.
Character selection screen shot
Done
What you do with one character will be judged upon the other. I guarantee if you saw my PVP character on the same account as my "Do Gooder" you would judge my "Do Gooder" immediately.
Your telling people that they fail to understand the point of having a single account, then say you agree there are legitimate reasons to have multiple accounts... The point that I am missing is why you would call some folks failures and then agree with them. Makes no sense.
If you were talking about the incentive structure, explain to me how they can get around a character selection screen shot?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guarantee if you saw my PVP character on the same account as my "Do Gooder" you would judge my "Do Gooder" immediately.
Why is why I'm arguing that you should be able to show a character selection screenshot that only shows what you want it to show.
I think if you read what I've already written with an open mind, you'd see I've been clearly saying this all along.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My point is not that players should be forced to use a single account while there are still very valid reasons to use multiple accounts. Rather, my point is that a player should be able to get all the benefits of using multiple accounts even if he's only using a single account.
Since I can clearly hide characters on another account from anyone who looks at my single account, I should be able to hide characters on that account too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you can hide characters on an account, there will be a screen that you go to and make that choice... A screen shot of that screen will be required.
If they implement API keys, full disclosure will be required for that.
Thats where the paranoia comes in. If there is a way to change things, the change screen will be looked at.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can easily imagine a way to manage it in a way that no viewer could possibly know they were being deceived. The simplest way would be to create multiple login credentials that showed different things. As long as you don't give them the "real" credentials, you can completely control what they see, and there would not be any way for them to know whether they had the "real" credentials.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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There's not much point in continuing to debate this. Some people will have multiple accounts, and some of those people will do it for security reasons. Nothing you can tell them will convince them that they don't need to do it. Since nobody will pay more or less to have more than 1 account, the only reasons to do it will be personal, not structural. Ergo, the argument is pointless (and unwinnable).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan, I'm not really trying to win a debate about how others play. I'm mostly trying to encourage you to develop PFO so that all of the normal advantages to using multiple accounts can apply to single accounts as well. It's the same thing I've been saying since I started the thread Never punish a player for using a single account back in January of 2012.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can easily imagine a way to manage it in a way that no viewer could possibly know they were being deceived. The simplest way would be to create multiple login credentials that showed different things. As long as you don't give them the "real" credentials, you can completely control what they see, and there would not be any way for them to know whether they had the "real" credentials.
That would be fine. It would be just like having multiple accounts in that way... If GW is willing to do it, Im for it.
I honestly didnt think of multiple logins for one account. Sad part is I use it all the time with Robots.
Hey Ryan, Nihimon just won the argument... even though it was more of a discussion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I get that. But because paranoid you won't win.
Someone may find a work around for it... So long as you dont give those options it would be fine.
I just want to have multiple characters that are not tied to each other at all. The EULA/TOS are not a concern of mine, since I will follow them.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The thing is, the truly paranoid won't be satisfied even if they have the tools they want (and there's a chicken and egg problem involved in setting ones own security permissions.
Players who expect account logins to be used for security will not use any features that are harder to use or more likely to fail than having multiple accounts to fool other players; therefore the time spent developing, testing, implementing, and supporting those features would be poorly spent.
That said, login credentials are poor guild security, on so many levels. Nobody who submits to such a check will fail it, and everyone who is doing anything malicious will be able to pass it, simply by having the account that is being checked be clean.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Players who expect account logins to be used for security will not use any features that are harder to use or more likely to fail than having multiple accounts to fool other players; therefore the time spent developing, testing, implementing, and supporting those features would be poorly spent.
I agree, and that's why I said I didn't expect it to happen in PFO. Although I do enjoy talking about the possibilities.
My latest thought is that there should be a way to tie Multiple Accounts to a Single Player. Ideally, there would be some benefit that accrued to the Player and scaled with the amount of training bought across all associated accounts, but that was only in effect while the Account was tied to the Player. For security purposes, a second set of credentials could be created that would make the Account look as if it were not attached to any other Accounts.