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I am currently working on a personal project to create what I consider a "true" AD&D 3rd edition. It is d20 based but not d20 obsessed (I will be using charts and tables for many things – attribute scores, etc – and not just scaling values). That being said it does borrow some of the better mechanics that are utilized in 3rd ed and PFRPG - open ended AC, Skill values and Saves.
Without getting too involved in detailing that project (I can post it here if anyone is interested) I did introduce a quality class to Saving Throws (currently we have Good and Bad save qualities). This is the "Average" Save quality. I will also detail how I will be using it in my AD&D3 project - but it can easily be incorporated into PFRPG using my samples. The core offering - the Average Save category and its applications are not sexy, crazy or outrageous, just presenting an additional value to current the Good/Bad save categories.
So here it is, the Average Save category (I have the current Good and Bad Saves also listed as a comparison):
Level/HD 1 - Average Save: +1, Good Save: +2, Bad Save: +0
Level/HD 2 - Average Save: +1, Good Save: +3, Bad Save: +0
Level/HD 3 - Average Save: +2, Good Save: +3, Bad Save: +1
Level/HD 4 - Average Save: +2, Good Save: +4, Bad Save: +1
Level/HD 5 - Average Save: +2, Good Save: +4, Bad Save: +1
Level/HD 6 - Average Save: +3, Good Save: +5, Bad Save: +2
Level/HD 7 - Average Save: +3, Good Save: +5, Bad Save: +2
Level/HD 8 - Average Save: +4, Good Save: +6, Bad Save: +2
Level/HD 9 - Average Save: +4, Good Save: +6, Bad Save: +3
Level/HD 10 - Average Save: +5, Good Save: +7, Bad Save: +3
Level/HD 11 - Average Save: +5, Good Save: +7, Bad Save: +3
Level/HD 12 - Average Save: +6, Good Save: +8, Bad Save: +4
Level/HD 13 - Average Save: +6, Good Save: +8, Bad Save: +4
Level/HD 14 - Average Save: +6, Good Save: +9, Bad Save: +4
Level/HD 15 - Average Save: +7, Good Save: +9, Bad Save: +5
Level/HD 16 - Average Save: +7, Good Save: +10, Bad Save: +5
Level/HD 17 - Average Save: +7, Good Save: +10, Bad Save: +5
Level/HD 18 - Average Save: +8, Good Save: +11, Bad Save: +6
Level/HD 19 - Average Save: +8, Good Save: +11, Bad Save: +6
Level/HD 20 - Average Save: +9, Good Save: +12, Bad Save: +6
Level/HD 21 - Average Save: +9, Good Save: +12, Bad Save: +7
Level/HD 22 - Average Save: +10, Good Save: +13, Bad Save: +7
Level/HD 23 - Average Save: +10, Good Save: +13, Bad Save: +7
Level/HD 24 - Average Save: +11, Good Save: +14, Bad Save: +8
Level/HD 25 - Average Save: +11, Good Save: +14, Bad Save: +8
Level/HD 26 - Average Save: +11, Good Save: +15, Bad Save: +8
Level/HD 27 - Average Save: +12, Good Save: +15, Bad Save: +9
Level/HD 28 - Average Save: +12, Good Save: +16, Bad Save: +9
Level/HD 29 - Average Save: +12, Good Save: +16, Bad Save: +9
Level/HD 30 - Average Save: +13, Good Save: +17, Bad Save: +10
Here is how I plan on using it for AD&D3
Base Classes -
Fighter Saves:
- Fort: Good
- Reflex: Average
- Will: Average
Rogue:
- Fort: Average
- Reflex: Good
- Will: Average
Cleric:
- Fort: Average
- Reflex: Bad
- Will: Good
Wizard:
- Fort: Bad
- Reflex: Average
- Will: Good
- Saves will be fixed DCs based on spell level (level 1 spells will be DC 15, level 2 spells will be DC 16, etc) and not caster dependant. This is a deliberate design consideration (for many, many reasons).
- Casters will not be able to affect DC values directly, they will have access to feats that affect the spell/secondary spell function but there will be no stat manipulation (on the caster or savers side). This is a deliberate design consideration as Feats in AD&D will not provide +X value to Y ability/spell/effect (with the exception of a few limited weapon based feats).
- Saves and rolls WILL NOT BE BINARY MADE IT OR FAIL. In other words, if you miss a save by one value the spell/effect will be different than if you were to miss it by 5. This also goes for beating a Save roll. This design focus will be applied to all d20 checks (attacks, skill checks, proficiency checks, etc).
Anyway, the purpose of the thread was to offer a 3rd Save progression path and to provide some examples of how this new progression path could be applied to the classes that exist in the PFRPG (or 3rd ed for that matter).
Let me know what you guys think: impact, shoring up martially inclined classes, possible use for creatures and potential game impact, etc.
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Save DC chart (based on Spell Level)
1 - DC 15
2 - DC 16
3 - DC 17
4 - DC 18
5 - DC 19
6 - DC 20
7 - DC 21
8 - DC 22
9 - DC 23
Casters cannot modify DCs of spells (values are fixed) but may use some meta magic feats to increase the spell level of a given spell (to increase the save DC) and other feats to alter or increase spell effects.
What affects saving throws?
- Stats (limited, see below)
- Armor (limited)
- One type of magic item (rare)
- Defensive Spells that help on saves
Stats
Saves are affected by the saving target relevant stat - using AD&D charts a:
- 15 gives a +1
- 16 gives a +2
- 17 gives a +3
- 18 gives a +4
This is relevant stat. So a 17 Dex yields a +3 on Reflex saves, Con 16 is +2 on Fort, and a Wisdom of 15 +1 on Will, etc. So only very high stats affect saves (again, going with the AD&D stat charts).
A few notes about stats:
They do not go up as you level up
There are no stat booster items (besides STR boosters)
Stat ranges from 3-18, with 19 being an extreme high stat.
Stats cannot be manipulated by spells (beyond Strength spell - keeping in mind this is AD&D).
Armor
Some heavy armors will give bonuses to saves in on a circumstantial basis. E.g - Full plate (non-magical) giving a +1 on Reflex Saves vs. Dragons Breath or Breath Weapons. Full helms giving a +1 to Will saves vs. Gaze based or vision based attacks (Color Spray, etc).
Items
- Only one item gives save bonuses and these are rare - they need to be found, given or won. These will be variant Rings of Protection. Most rings will just offer some form of AC improvement, while a few rare kinds will increase in saves. These cannot be made or purchased.
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AD&D feel for PF
As a force fit for PF for those DMs looking for an older school feel, the changes that would need to be made:
- No +2 or -2 on stats based on race (or anything else)
- Stats do not go up as you level up.
- Items do not add to stats.
- Stats should not be manipulated. Or this effect should be limited. Eg: Bull Strength allows for greater Str for lifting, breaking and Strength related skill checks or tasks. Same goes for Fox's Cunning, Owls Wisdom, etc. They do NOT MODIFY SAVES, NOR DO THEY MODIFY SAVE DCs!
Anyway - I will use this thread to place ideas and feedback. If anything this can serve as my own personal chalkboard.
I a curious about this.
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I a curious about this.
Thanks
An optional system/modification I am considering for the fixed DC system is to scale the DC by Caster vs. Target. +1/-1 per difference.
So if a 5th level wizard casts Fireball (Fixed DC 17) against a bunch of level 1 targets, their save DC would be increased by +1 per level difference. In this example their save DC would become DC 21, again - the target still has +X based on their save progression.
If the party is all 2nd level and fighting an evil 5th level cleric and he casts Hold Person the base Save DC would be 16, and since he's 3 levels higher than his targets it goes up to 19. Again, not counting their normal save bonuses to their roll for level and high stat (15 or higher in my game, but you can use the bonus array for PF), as this works for any DC based game.
It does make for stronger single BBEG encounters and it does make it harder for lower level parties to take out higher level foes.
For bulk HD creatures without levels you can use 1/2 HD to full HD value = level, such as Dinosaurs or other big monsters with massive HD. A good rule of thumb would be to make the level value equal to or close to = CR or CR 1.5 (on the extreme end, Dragons, single BBEG type monsters) if the HD is very high but the creatures CR is much lower.
The system works best for class leveled foes vs. class leveled players, since level approximation is more accurate, but with some work it can be applied to all creatures in the game.
Again, it helps the players dominate against lower HD/leveled foes as they go up, but it also makes the SoD/SoS tactic against higher level foes much harder to pull off unless the party uses non-save related spells to debuff the targets saves.
Keep an eye out for my Non-Binary Save system. Should make things very interesting.