|
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Just wondering how people deal with this at the table? For 500 gold it seems like a great deal since there are no real issues. +10 to bluff check to lie and +5 to bluff checks to feint with only a -5 to bluff checks made to send secret messages.
I know it does not list it but it seems like it would be a huge issue for diplomacy and anything else Charisma based. Just wondering how people handle this....or if it really matters
|
|
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
NPC Commoner Reactions to a PC Wearing a Mask of Stony Demeanor!
Got a bluff monkey trying to use this clearly underpriced item? Simply roll on this table, find out what your NPCs say, and make your problems go away!
1. "Don't blink. Don't close yer eyes. I'll fetch the crossbow."
2. "Me brother bought one of those masks and took it to a poker game. By the end of the night, there was a homeless person using his carcass as a bedroll. I'd suggest you take that thing off."
3. "Hey, you got one of dose masks all the politicians been wearin'"
4. "I heard of folk being stoned, but dis is ridiculous."
5. "Last time I trusted an adventurer wearing a mask, he took 1d4 hours of my life talking to me about some red herring."
6. "Hey, it's a mask of stony demeanour! Even an underprivileged under-experienced commoner like meself can afford one of those! Look, I've got the Sleeve of Many Garments. Youse like?"
7. "You look like the Sczarni gave youse a concrete face and dropped you in the bay."
8. "Colonel Maldris's teapot is not here. Leave me alone!"
9. "If you don't take off that mask or I'll unhitch me britchers."
10. "Back in my day, we had to learn how to lie. We didn't have magic to do it for us."
11. "Oi, have you tried stacking that wif the Glibness spell? Just a word of advice."
12. "Oh lawd, is you an Oread? I can't afford to go to no fancy cons."
13. *grabs weapon* "They haven't made a magic item that duplicates Improved Feint yet, have they? No? Good."
14. "You can't stack an innocent look with that mask. I know the rules don't explicitly say so, but come on, Mr Adventurer Man, use some common sense."
15. "There's this dance called 'The Golem' that everyone's talking aboot. Get yer arm like this and let it hang. Yerrr, that's it. Now you try."
16. "I'll tell you where the Macguffin is if you use that mask to go explain to my wife where I've been for the past week."
17. "You're my long-lost brother? Really? See, this is why folks hate the Pathfinder Society. No imagination."
18. "I implicitly believe that you need to remove that mask before talking to me."
19. "Okay, the lying bit I get. But feinting. Mate! Have you ever been in a sword fight!? Feinting is all about the movements of the BODY. Not the FACE. Aroden above, my patience draws thin."
20. "Yes I believe you."
Enjoy!!!
|
|
NPC Commoner Reactions to a PC Wearing a Mask of Stony Demeanor!
Got a bluff monkey trying to use this clearly underpriced item? Simply roll on this table, find out what your NPCs say, and make your problems go away!1. "Don't blink. Don't close yer eyes. I'll fetch the crossbow."
2. "Me brother bought one of those masks and took it to a poker game. By the end of the night, there was a homeless person using his carcass as a bedroll. I'd suggest you take that thing off."
3. "Hey, you got one of dose masks all the politicians been wearin'"
4. "I heard of folk being stoned, but dis is ridiculous."
5. "Last time I trusted an adventurer wearing a mask, he took 1d4 hours of my life talking to me about some red herring."
6. "Hey, it's a mask of stony demeanour! Even an underprivileged under-experienced commoner like meself can afford one of those! Look, I've got the Sleeve of Many Garments. Youse like?"
7. "You look like the Sczarni gave youse a concrete face and dropped you in the bay."
8. "Colonel Maldris's teapot is not here. Leave me alone!"
9. "If you don't take off that mask or I'll unhitch me britchers."
10. "Back in my day, we had to learn how to lie. We didn't have magic to do it for us."
11. "Oi, have you tried stacking that wif the Glibness spell? Just a word of advice."
12. "Oh lawd, is you an Oread? I can't afford to go to no fancy cons."
13. *grabs weapon* "They haven't made a magic item that duplicates Improved Feint yet, have they? No? Good."
14. "You can't stack an innocent look with that mask. I know the rules don't explicitly say so, but come on, Mr Adventurer Man, use some common sense."
15. "There's this dance called 'The Golem' that everyone's talking aboot. Get yer arm like this and let it hang. Yerrr, that's it. Now you try."
16. "I'll tell you where the Macguffin is if you use that mask to go explain to my wife where I've been for the past week."
17. "You're my long-lost brother? Really? See, this is why folks hate the Pathfinder Society. No imagination."
18. "I...
Long story short, if you don't like the way the rules work as stated, impose a 95% chance that they work the opposite way......
Of course this could have been written entirely in jest, but there are plenty others in a recent thread on this topic that clearly don't think so.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Got a bluff monkey trying to use this clearly underpriced item?
Paizo has had plenty of time and multiple opportunities to describe this item as underpriced. They have not.
Campaign leadership has banned several items from the book at the urging of concerned GMs; this item has been brought up in several of those discussions. It is not banned.
If you don't like this item, suck it up or play a home game.
|
|
Any of my NPCs with a decent intelligence and a few ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana can identify the Wonky Mask Of Lying and act appropriately. That's verisimilitude. This isn't a video game where NPCs bleat one line repeatedly or represent a single skill check in order to be bypassed. They think. They act. They don't like it when you wear the Wonky Mask of Lying when you talk to them. That's social etiquette 101 right there.
If you don't like it... go get disproportionately angry and mouth off at people on the internet. I have my opinion and you're not changing it.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Any of my NPCs with a decent intelligence and a few ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana can identify the Wonky Mask Of Lying and act appropriately. That's verisimilitude. This isn't a video game where NPCs bleat one line repeatedly or represent a single skill check in order to be bypassed. They think. They act. They don't like it when you wear the Wonky Mask of Lying when you talk to them. That's social etiquette 101 right there.
If you don't like it... go get disproportionately angry and mouth off at people on the internet. I have my opinion and you're not changing it.
And since my characters have heard of illusions spells and many of them can cast those spells so they know what they often look like, I can automatically disbelieve them.......
There is no angry mouthing off here, just complete disapproval of your choices. I consider it important to have open disagreements with people here for three reasons.
1- I don't like to assume from the start that anyone is dogmatic. I like to think that we all have decent intentions and are reasonable people until proven otherwise.
2- I could be wrong. People have made decent arguments contrary to my own and linked me to clear rules opposite my position many times here.
3- It may be of benefit to someone else reading the board. I have both heard and even said several times when looking for rules clarification "Most people on the boards seem to think" when a clear ruling isn't present. For this reason, I think it a very bad idea for people to let advice that goes contrary to what the rules actually state go unchallenged.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As the mask is allowed by the rules, and no errata has been issued, I play it as written. It's a sweet bonus for a low price.
I don't make NPCs wary of players wearing Circlets of Persuasion. I see no difference here.
The difference is that one is a pretty piece of jewelry, and the other turns your face into a statue and makes you talk like a robot. And that is how it's written.
|
Any of my NPCs with a decent intelligence and a few ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana can identify the Wonky Mask Of Lying and act appropriately. That's verisimilitude. This isn't a video game where NPCs bleat one line repeatedly or represent a single skill check in order to be bypassed. They think. They act. They don't like it when you wear the Wonky Mask of Lying when you talk to them. That's social etiquette 101 right there.
If you were just told a story and you believed it (failed Sense Motive check), why would you cast Detect Magic to try to identify magic items on somebody?
"Really? Jimmy just fell down a well! Hold on, let me cast this spell and wait 30 seconds. Now don't move as I Spellcraft you. Hey, you were wearing a mask of stony demeanor. I don't think Jimmy really fell down that well."
Too much meta-gaming there, Lieutenant. And Knowledge Arcana doesn't ID magic items, only Spellcraft. And the DC is 21, so isn't a gimme.
Besides, there are people in the world that do have flat affect and/or monotone rate of speech. I guess they must be lying robots too.
|
|
Besides, there are people in the world that do have flat affect and/or monotone rate of speech. I guess they must be lying robots too.Do they have faces like earth elementals?
Am I the only person who thinks that's not meant to be read literally, but rather as a metaphor? It doesn't make sense that the item grants a +10 to lie while simultaneously creating the appearance of an actual statue.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Am I the only person who thinks that's not meant to be read literally, but rather as a metaphor? It doesn't make sense that the item grants a +10 to lie while simultaneously creating the appearance of an actual statue.Besides, there are people in the world that do have flat affect and/or monotone rate of speech. I guess they must be lying robots too.Do they have faces like earth elementals?
That's a fair point, so I went back to re-read the text. Here's what it says on that point:
transforms the wearer's face into a stone statue
That doesn't read like metaphor to me, especially in the context of a fantasy world where things exactly like that can actually happen. Especially when you continue on to the beginning of the next sentence:
Though it allows the wearer to speak...
Now, why would a mask need to specify that the wearer is still capable of speaking? I can only conclude it's because the literal transformation into a stone statue's face might imply the inability to move one's mouth.
Also, one of the construction requirements is stone shape.So no, I'm going to have to take the description...
...at face value.
as someone with +10 bluff naturally, I have only seen this thing actually work well once...
In my experience, Bluff is one of those skills where paradoxically, if your PC is too good at it, it magically starts automatically failing. See also: Intimidate, Perception, Disguise
|
|
as someone with +10 bluff naturally, I have only seen this thing actually work well once...In my experience, Bluff is one of those skills where paradoxically, if your PC is too good at it, it magically starts automatically failing. See also: Intimidate, Perception, Disguise
I think it depends on how the PC is trying to use it. If they expect Diplomacy or Bluff to function like Charm or Dominate Person, they're may find themselves believing that the "GM is out to get them."
They also tend to discount the various bonuses or penalties that can affect the DC:
The target wants to believe you +5
The lie is believable +0
The lie is unlikely –5
The lie is far-fetched –10
The lie is impossible –20
The target is drunk or impaired +5
You possess convincing proof up to +10
Or exceptions like this:
Note that some lies are so improbable that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are true (subject to GM discretion).
|
|
as someone with +10 bluff naturally, I have only seen this thing actually work well once...In my experience, Bluff is one of those skills where paradoxically, if your PC is too good at it, it magically starts automatically failing. See also: Intimidate, Perception, Disguise
Back in the days of 3.5, I was playing in kind of a Monty Hall (Monty Haul?) campaign, and we were all about slotless items. I came up with a tongue ring that granted a bonus to Bluff. I pitched the idea to a crafter, who said he loved the idea. I told him I wanted royalties from the idea and my name on the brand (the character in question went on to own a chain of magic item shops), and the NPC stopped, and stared, and said to me, "You want people to know ... that you have ... in fact invented ... a magical item ... that helps you lie to them."
I had trouble arguing with that.
In my experience, Bluff is one of those skills where paradoxically, if your PC is too good at it, it magically starts automatically failing. See also: Intimidate, Perception, DisguiseI think it depends on how the PC is trying to use it. If they expect Diplomacy or Bluff to function like Charm or Dominate Person, they're may find themselves believing that the "GM is out to get them."
I'm not trying to suggest that GMs are deliberately being mean ol' meanies when it comes to skill checks. But I think it's only human nature to think that a PC with a +11 modifier rolling a natural 20 is more impressive than a PC with a +28 modifier rolling a natural 3, and so more of the former tend to succeed compared to the latter. I call this Benjamin Button Skill Syndrome (BBSS).
(This is all in my personal experience, of course.)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Any of my NPCs with a decent intelligence and a few ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana can identify the Wonky Mask Of Lying and act appropriately. That's verisimilitude. This isn't a video game where NPCs bleat one line repeatedly or represent a single skill check in order to be bypassed. They think. They act. They don't like it when you wear the Wonky Mask of Lying when you talk to them. That's social etiquette 101 right there.
If you don't like it... go get disproportionately angry and mouth off at people on the internet. I have my opinion and you're not changing it.
So, are you going to change the way some NPCs react to other things too? Or insist that some things work differently? Perhaps make gunslingers roll against regular AC?
I'm sorry you don't like the item but it seems you're going a little out of the way to penalize a player for getting it. My rogue uses it, but typically only when he expects trouble. In a 'social' encounter he keeps it tucked away in his shirt/jacket/haversack, but RAW allowed for its use. (I find it hard for him to be a weaselly quadrant 'locksmith' wearing it when he s bartering but that is me.)
|
My ninja has one of these, but she mostly wears it when adventuring for the bonus to feint. In most social situations, she wants to be able to show emotion, so she keeps it off. But even without it, her bluff is generally high enough to beat most character's Sense Motive rolls or Feint DCs, and there's no benefit to beating those by a lot like there is with intimidate. The bonus to feint just helps offset penalties when facing low intelligence or monstrous creatures, for the most part.
I don't think even the +10 to lie is overpowered, though I'd probably still have bought it if it was 1,000gp instead of 500. In the larger scheme of things, this doesn't even compare to the level of overpowered that the Bracer's of Falcon's Aim were. Also, keep in mind that you give up your head slot for this item, so no Circlet of Persuasion, no Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, no Buffering Cap, etc.
If you have this item and your GM makes everyone who sees you wearing it assume that you are lying, just start telling the truth.
With this item and bluff in general i require the player to work for their bluff. Just because a pc has + 50 bluff doesent mean they say some random thing and everyone around them believes it. I had a pc run around telling people he was an ancient red dragon and it made him look like a mad man. If he had used his spells to make it more believeable it would have worked but he didnt so.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Another example, a pc kills a guy right in front of a guard. I dont care how high your bluff is saying i didnt do it i not going to help you here. But say he kills the same person when no one is looking and then acts like he is trying to save them when the guard comes around you can totaly lie in an emotional tone and say he went that way hurry after him. Of corse the mask would hurt you here because your talking in a monotone voice with a stone face.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Of corse the mask would hurt you here because your talking in a monotone voice with a stone face.
Except it won't hurt him, because the game rules say he has a +10 bonus to bluff when lying. GM's can't change game rules. GM's can adjudicate game rules when none currently exist, but they can't change the rules.
We also can't penalize someone for using a magic item just because we think it wouldn't make sense. The magic item works the way it says it works because it's magic. GM's applying penalties because of the mask are cheating the player. We as GM's should never penalize the players for doing or using something we disagree with, or breaks our perceived common sense when they are following the rules written in the game.
Now if you think the item is too cheap the best bet would be to post in the rules forum and try to get people to FAQ it to try and get developer feedback.
|
Of corse the mask would hurt you here because your talking in a monotone voice with a stone face.Except it won't hurt him, because the game rules say he has a +10 bonus to bluff when lying. GM's can't change game rules. GM's can adjudicate game rules when none currently exist, but they can't change the rules.
We also can't penalize someone for using a magic item just because we think it wouldn't make sense. The magic item works the way it says it works because it's magic. GM's applying penalties because of the mask are cheating the player. We as GM's should never penalize the players for doing or using something we disagree with, or breaks our perceived common sense when they are following the rules written in the game.
Now if you think the item is too cheap the best bet would be to post in the rules forum and try to get people to FAQ it to try and get developer feedback.
/shrug. The +5 through -20 modifiers exist for a reason.
Sorry for useing role playing elements in a role playing game. If you want something that only looks at what your stats are go play a video game.
Note i am talking about non pfs games
Then again wouldent talking in a monotone voice with a stone face while trying to save somone make your lies unbelievable and give you a -20 or make the lie compleaty unbelievable anyways?
|
|
The way I read the Mask of Stony Demeanor, I think that the GM would be justified in giving a circumstance penalty to Diplomacy (something in the -2 to -5 range) when dealing with people who would be upset with dealing with someone so far out of the norm.
Which means you would run into plenty of situations where the NPCs *believe* you, they just don't *like* you. Which is sometimes a problem, and sometimes exactly what you want.
The question is can a pfs gm penilize a players action like having a emotionless face and tone when the situation calls for emotions.
I think it gives you a good poker face but having a stone face would tip off some people rp wise
|
|
The way I read the Mask of Stony Demeanor, I think that the GM would be justified in giving a circumstance penalty to Diplomacy (something in the -2 to -5 range) when dealing with people who would be upset with dealing with someone so far out of the norm.
Which means you would run into plenty of situations where the NPCs *believe* you, they just don't *like* you. Which is sometimes a problem, and sometimes exactly what you want.
Agreed. The trouble is, a fair number of GMs seem to believe that it would somehow make it harder to lie, even though the whole point of the item is to make it easier.
|
|
Agreed. The trouble is, a fair number of GMs seem to believe that it would somehow make it harder to lie, even though the whole point of the item is to make it easier.The way I read the Mask of Stony Demeanor, I think that the GM would be justified in giving a circumstance penalty to Diplomacy (something in the -2 to -5 range) when dealing with people who would be upset with dealing with someone so far out of the norm.
Which means you would run into plenty of situations where the NPCs *believe* you, they just don't *like* you. Which is sometimes a problem, and sometimes exactly what you want.
In certain circumstances where having a face made out of literal stone, monotone voice, and a knowledge that these two mean you are likely using a mask that helps you lie, aren't actual detriments to what you are trying to accomplish.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
/shrug. The +5 through -20 modifiers exist for a reason.
Yup, and none of those are based on the appearance of the person doing the bluff, it's just based on what is being said. So a GM throwing a penalty onto a player because of the mask giving them a statue like face would be unfair. The item works the way it works.
And the way it says it works is by literally turning your face to stone. GMs don't get to change that just because they don't like it, just like you said.
Correct the person's face is stone. The mechanical benefits of that are spelt out in the item description.
The question is can a pfs gm penilize a players action like having a emotionless face and tone when the situation calls for emotions.
No the item has it's penalties already called out.
GM's should also not give penalties to half-orc or half elves in social situation just because of their race choice if a scenario doesn't say too. Even though many Golarion cultures would look down on them.
This is a game, games have rules. In PFS the GMs need to follow the rules. Penalizing players because you don't like the magic item they bought is not fair to the player. The item has benefits and negative already in it's stat block it's not up to the GM to invent more.
Sorry for useing role playing elements in a role playing game. If you want something that only looks at what your stats are go play a video game.
Roleplaying is not justification to cheat the players out of what they've earned. If you want to cheat players please stay away from GMing PFS. Roleplaying is not an excuse to be a jerk.
If a character wearing the mask lies to a npc, and succeeds at the DC with all the applicable modifiers added then the onus is on the GM to roleplay his NPC as believing the lie. The game has rules for a reason.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
In certain circumstances where having a face made out of literal stone, monotone voice, and a knowledge that these two mean you are likely using a mask that helps you lie, aren't actual detriments to what you are trying to accomplish.Agreed. The trouble is, a fair number of GMs seem to believe that it would somehow make it harder to lie, even though the whole point of the item is to make it easier.The way I read the Mask of Stony Demeanor, I think that the GM would be justified in giving a circumstance penalty to Diplomacy (something in the -2 to -5 range) when dealing with people who would be upset with dealing with someone so far out of the norm.
Which means you would run into plenty of situations where the NPCs *believe* you, they just don't *like* you. Which is sometimes a problem, and sometimes exactly what you want.
The mask gives you, and I quote, " a +10 competence bonus on Bluff checks made to lie." The argument that using it somehow also makes it harder to lie literally undoes the item's primary function.
So all npcs in pfs are mindless robots programmed to follow if x>y then x is true.
|
|
So all npcs in pfs are mindless robots programmed to follow if x>y then x is true.
What you're engaging in here is "reductio ad absurdum." Essentially, you are making the proposition ("this mask helps you lie") seem odd by taking it to an extreme that seems absurd ("all NPCs are mindless robots"). It's problematic because it doesn't actually address the content of the argument. In this case, you aren't disputing that if the mask doesn't help you lie, it serves no purpose--instead, you're just trying to make that statement look absurd.
If you have a legitimate counterargument to the idea that the mask needs to accomplish its purpose, I would love to see it. If not, please don't expect people to fall for such a simplistic technique.
Pop culture note: Fans of The Big Bang Theory may recognize the name of this particular phenomenon from an early episode in regards to Sheldon's earthquake preparedness kit.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
The mask gives you, and I quote, " a +10 competence bonus on Bluff checks made to lie." The argument that using it somehow also makes it harder to lie literally undoes the item's primary function.
You could use the same argument in regard to applying a —4 to a weapon that deals more damage but with which the PC is not proficient. After all, it's making it harder to perform the item's primary function, right? The mask turning your face to stone is as much a rule as weapon nonproficiency penalties.
Of course, the mask doesn't specify the exact repercussions of having a stone face. Also, applying a penalty to every situation does, as you point out, effectively contradict the written bonus. It would be ludicrous to suggest that the mask never confers the full benefit listed. However, it would be equally ludicrous to suggest that the other part of the mask's effect also never has any effect.
And if anyone wants to say "but the stone-face doesn't list its effect, therefore it never has one", tell it to the droves of players carrying chalk, twine, fishooks, and all the other scores of items that have no listed mechanical effect but can still affect the world according to common sense.
When a person lies emotions shown through the face voice and body language can make or break the lie depending on the situation. To have npcs ignore a compleatly emotionless person lieing to their face does make them robots programed to follow the number system and removes immersion from the game. Now in some situations a lack of emotions can help you sell a lie like in poker or threatening to blow yourself up unless you get x.
But seeing how bluff is only what is said does how it is said effect the outcome at all.