To buff, or to debuff...

[Michael Riter]

... that is the question. Now I had often wondered what people consider more effective, especially in PFS, so I thought, "Hey, why not just ask?"

I know it would be fun to have both types of players in a party, but what if you could just have one? Which and why?

[G-Zeus]

I would have to go with a debuff character for my party. Any time I go into a pfs game I have my character ready to face the enemy as he/she is, meaning that I don't rely on a buff to engage in combat. Though maybe wrong I assume that the rest of the party is also capable of combat without the excessive need to buff themselves. Does this mean that we wont or shouldn't buff? No, but in most situations buffing is not needed, additionally buffing requires time, and most of the time when the Pc's get to buff so does the enemy. This is where Debuff comes into play, If the party is ambushed, or just not given time to prep debuff is always a good option. Secondly in the situation that the party didn't know a fight was going to happen but the boss was alerted the ability to strip the boss of his/her enchantments or simply hinder them through other means comes in clutch. Lastly the ability to debuff can play a huge role in crowd control and allow for a quick upperhand in melee.

[TriOmegaZero]

Depends on your saves DCs. If you want to play a buffer, you really only need maybe a 14 or 16 for your starting casting stat. If you want to use debuffs that allow saves, you want to be a bit higher.

[Chris Mortika]

Buffing your friends against the standard enemies will result in fights that feel "bigger" and more heroic than letting your friends engage crippled enemies. For many players, it will feel more fun.

Crippling enemies often requires them to fail a saving throw, and possibly requires the caster to punch through spell resistance. It's not automatic. Also, the caster might not have the right de-buff. (Sure, cast blindness on the monster with Tremorsense.)

With both of those caveats in mind, then spell-level-for-spell-level, crippling enemies is usually the more effective tactic.

[BigNorseWolf]

Buffing your friends. There's no save, no SR, and usually more munchkinism involved than they planned for when they made things like haste or telekinetic charge.

[Buba Casanunda]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Buffing your friends. There's no save, no SR, and usually more munchkinism involved than they planned for when they made things like haste or telekinetic charge.

actually, sometimes there's SR to get thru to the PCs (more than one of my PCs has SR).

;)

[Arkos]

Buba Casanunda wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Buffing your friends. There's no save, no SR, and usually more munchkinism involved than they planned for when they made things like haste or telekinetic charge.

actually, sometimes there's SR to get thru to the PCs (more than one of my PCs has SR).

Well, they can at least drop their SR voluntarily if they need to. I'd just wonder about the number of Superstitious Barbarians there are at the table...

[nosig]

Arkos wrote:

Buba Casanunda wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Buffing your friends. There's no save, no SR, and usually more munchkinism involved than they planned for when they made things like haste or telekinetic charge.

actually, sometimes there's SR to get thru to the PCs (more than one of my PCs has SR).

Well, they can at least drop their SR voluntarily if they need to. I'd just wonder about the number of Superstitious Barbarians there are at the table...

as it takes a standard action to do that, and they are also casters themselves... often there is not time to both drop the SR, and cast my spells. Or in combat, taking the action to drop the buff is not an option (so I may just miss out on that Haste.)

[Victor Zajic]

I was going to say that it is more easy for GMs to forget to apply debuff to the monster, but my friends can't remember my buff, either, without constant reminder.

[nosig]

Victor Zajic wrote:

I was going to say that it is more easy for GMs to forget to apply debuff to the monster, but my friends can't remember my buff, either, without constant reminder.

Make a table tent and put it up when you cast the buff.

For example: I have a Blessings of Fervor tent I pitch out on the table whenever my Cleric casts it. "Blessings of Fervor" in big bold letters across the top, and each of the choices as bullet points below. One player might forget, but often other players will say "did you pick an selection?"

[Arkos]

nosig wrote:

as it takes a standard action to do that, and they are also casters themselves... often there is not time to both drop the SR, and cast my spells. Or in combat, taking the action to drop the buff is not an option (so I may just miss out on that Haste.)

Wait, the caster is the one with SR? In that case (unless I'm reading this wrong)...

PRD wrote:

A creature's spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.

But sure, if the SR'd character isn't a buffer themselves, then it doesn't often seem worth the standard action. Which is why I seldom see characters with SR in PFS play. We often have support characters aplenty around here and no one wants to miss out.

[Kyle Baird]

Michael Riter wrote:

... that is the question. Now I had often wondered what people consider more effective, especially in PFS, so I thought, "Hey, why not just ask?"

I know it would be fun to have both types of players in a party, but what if you could just have one? Which and why?

Depends on action economy. If it's a single enemy and the choice is debuffing them or buffing your party, buff your party. Buffing a single member of your party usually isn't worth it (if you're in combat already).

[Cold Napalm]

Do BOTH?!? Buff outside of combat and debuff inside combat...barring REALLY good round per level spells...like say haste.

[kinevon]

Remember that some buffs don't require much in actions from the party, or they are what the PC is designed to use expeditiously.

Bard using Inspire Courage?
Anyone with a hand and move action free? Pull out a flag with the Flagbearer feat.

Actually, during the first round of combat, if the flag isn't out already, my Bard does both.

Then again, his save DCs aren't all that high, and this negates at least two points of every enemy's AC and DR (if any), and that will only go up.