How fun were they as you leveled up? How did they do damage wise? When did he finally hit his stride?Super fun.
His damage sucked until level 5 when I could acquire his amulet, but he remained unhittable from level 2 all the way through 19 and killed things just fine.
The rest of your comments are things we could go in circles about all day.
You've seen the geared defensive monk, the geared damage monk, and the totally gearless monk. You're free to draw your own conclusions at this point.
I missed this post. Good that you had fun. I'm certainly having fun playing my Hungry Ghost Monk. Fun is what it is about at the end of the day.
My conclusions as far as the mechanical arguments are that the builds would be fine for mook fights or average encounters as most builds are. They wouldn't do very well in BBEG fights at high level in the campaigns I run in for a variety of reasons:
1. Over-reliance on self-buffing: Our group strips buffs off players on a fairly constant basis, especially so at lvl 17 plus where you're generally dealing with mage's disjunction from a ready caster. It would take quite a few rounds to get all those buffs back up. There would be no time while being assaulted. A lot of fights come down to raw abilities versus raw abilities. That is why I was interested in seeing the unbuffed monk with haste throughout a fight. That's usually all the casters have time to get back up while they are trying to live. If the monk's offense wasn't sufficient to attract the attention of the enemy, they would ignore him.
2. Displacement and other defensive powers would limit hits further at least for the AC build. Dragons and outsiders at the level he is at exceed 48 AC easily.
3. Magic Items: Magic items are rare and limited as you level up. He would be able to pick and choose at higher level, but would suffer according to available wealth within a city or community prior to that. I'm suffering with my Hungry Ghost Monk monk at the moment for exactly this reason I am looking forward to lvl 13 with a Lifesurge Vicious Blade. Hungry Ghost is one of the few characters that can put a Vicious weapon to use without suffering much from the negatives.
4. Spike Damage: The builds lack spike damage due to a low crit range. Crit range is everything at high level. Static bonuses makeup a far large portion of damage. A weapon with a 15-20 to 17-20 crit range is far superior to 19-20 crit range.
The fighter would be superior in the majority of situations due to his ability to do more damage without gear on top of the superior crit ability. Even 75 point base hits wouldn't be much compared to a single 200 plus point crit that would occur once, possibly twice, a round on average. The Two-hander Cleave build with a Falchion, Lunge, and Critical Feat or two is vicious beyond belief.
Fighter and the monk are different play-styles. An AC monk being able to beat a fighter in head to head combat doesn't change that the fighter is better at killing in a party environment than the monk. Then again the monk is more versatile and capable of doing non-combat activities like scouting and he requires less resources to keep him clean in battle. That does help. They are very hard to compare.
Crane Style was a huge boon to the monk as was the Quinggong archetype. My experience fighter versus monk stemmed from the Core Rule Book and APG. With just those two books, the fighter did superior damage. The monk could not beat a well build fighter using those two books. Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat Crane Style were game changers for the monk. Without those two books, the monk would be pretty lame, especially with the Inquisitor and Magus added.
I hope they do something about the monk's ability to fight like making Guided and Agile Core. Or working in the ability to boost to hit rolls with Ki.
Those are my conclusions. I know our campaigns are harsher than standard APs and adventures. We pretty much toss out anything like CR. We design encounters specifically to challenge the party. It makes for far more difficult fights that marginalize a couple of classes, mostly the monk, druid, and rogue. Animal companions are marginalized in such battles. The +15 BAB classes get a bit screwed, especially the rogue with his lame saves. The druid spell selection also hurts them at higher level. Every other class is viable, so people stick to them.
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Perception is heavily shaped from experience, so your views are fair in that regard.
Bear in mind that all versions of those monks I build were PFS legal. Prior to us joining PFS, we also played very harsh campaigns because we all had high levels of system mastery. What made that less fun for us was that in such games, only the spellcasters serve any true capability at high level.
I remade my home wizard into PFS as best I was able, and he turned out largely the same. He runs Aroden's spellbane to immunize himself to antimagic field, greater dispel magic, dispel magic, and mage's disjunction. If he expects heavy suppression, he casts another one with siphon magic and wall of suppression just so that there is absolutely no taking his buffs from him. He also has a ton of druid spells from Magaambyan Arcanist, highlights being antilife shell, barkskin, death ward, freedom of movement, greater magic fang, heal, and strong jaw, which is just silly to add to a wizard's list, especially considering how the natural weapon buffs interact with shapechange.
While those kinds of games can be fun in a sense, they also completely break the balance of the system for non-casters. Depending on just how "harsh" your games were, I can't imagine your fighter's would fair well against persistent mage's disjunction. Not only buffs goodbye, but kiss those magic items so long for 17+ minutes as well.
For no holds barred home games, those monks would look different. Whether you would find them to your tastes or not though, I cannot say.
I personally prefer survivability and defense over offense.
I was under the impression that you were assuming certain buffs would always be available, and that's the only way you can guarantee this. It's not like the monk is able to self-buff, is it?In fairness, you really should actually review the build before making blind assumptions man.
barkskin = at will for 1 ki from archetype
see invisibility = 1/day from aasimar variant
greater heroism = 3/day from feat
shield = 10 charges of 8 mins each from staff of minor arcana
lead blades = cast from wand, stored in cracked vibrant purple ioun stoneSo yes, it is in fact like the monk is able to self-buff.
Oh I get where you are coming from, but you've had to jump through hoops to get it, and that doesn't leave much real scope in the build for individualism (OK, probably YOU could manage it, but us lesser mortals are having trouble just making a working monk). Again, this just demonstrates that without mega-levels of system mastery, the monk doesn't work.
And again, one debuff and you are up the creek...
This is why I still maintain the monk needs fixing. It won't take too much to fix them, but it needs something.
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Well, not exactly up the creek, as he is still potentially running a 66 or 67 AC (depending on the version) without a single buff - can't dispel fighting defensive, Combat Expertise, and Ki dodge. But your point is well taken.
I wouldn't mind seeing the monk have a class mechanic to allow Dex or Wis for hit and/or damage. But in doing that, the other classic finesse characters would likely want a similar option, and it starts a big chain reaction.
Another good option is handwraps that work just like an amulet of mighty fists, but don't cost double gold, and can go up to +10 like a normal weapon. Without Qinggong for barkskin, that choice just sucks.
Overall though, the class works at least for myself. I will not speak for others in that regard.
+3 temple sword - 18.33k
50 +1 shuriken - 2.35k
belt of giant strength +2 - 4k
bracers of armor +5 - 25k
cloak of resistance +3 - 9k
headband of wisdom +2 - 4k
monk's robe - 13k
ring of protection +2 - 8k
+1 shock amulet of mighty fists - 16kAbout 104k in gear. A better selection of items for him would have been:
+2 amulet of mighty fists
belt of giant strength +4
bracers of armor +4
cloak of resistance +3
headband of wisdom +2
deep red sphere ioun stone
dusty rose prism ioun stone
jingasa of the fortunate soldier
monk's robe
ring of protection +2
about 4k left for expendables
Ah okay I see, thank you. You basically tossed out the sword and shurikens and added some ioun stones and jingasa. Otherwise, you kept every single magic item, but just changed their bonuses.
When you said you couldn't comprehend those items, I thought you meant a much more drastic change, but it seems you were thinking the same as I. I appreciate you taking the time to explain.
Well, not exactly up the creek, as he is still potentially running a 66 or 67 AC (depending on the version) without a single buff - can't dispel fighting defensive, Combat Expertise, and Ki dodge. But your point is well taken.
I wouldn't mind seeing the monk have a class mechanic to allow Dex or Wis for hit and/or damage. But in doing that, the other classic finesse characters would likely want a similar option, and it starts a big chain reaction.
Another good option is handwraps that work just like an amulet of mighty fists, but don't cost double gold, and can go up to +10 like a normal weapon. Without Qinggong for barkskin, that choice just sucks.
Overall though, the class works at least for myself. I will not speak for others in that regard.
I thought it would be fun if monks added Dex to hit and Wis to damage in addition to strength mod.
That way their MADness isn't a weakness.
Well, not exactly up the creek, as he is still potentially running a 66 or 67 AC (depending on the version) without a single buff - can't dispel fighting defensive, Combat Expertise, and Ki dodge. But your point is well taken.
Oh his AC is great, it's offensive capacity that depends heaviest on the buffs.
I wouldn't mind seeing the monk have a class mechanic to allow Dex or Wis for hit and/or damage. But in doing that, the other classic finesse characters would likely want a similar option, and it starts a big chain reaction.
Dex to hit already exists with Weapon Finesse. I'd like to see monks get Wisdom to hit (not damage, though a property there wouldn't hurt) for monk weapons and unarmed strikes. That would reduce their MAD to the level of other classes without giving divine casters an instant boost for a short dip.
Another good option is handwraps that work just like an amulet of mighty fists, but don't cost double gold, and can go up to +10 like a normal weapon. Without Qinggong for barkskin, that choice just sucks.
I agree, but Paizo have stated categorically that this isn't going to happen. They won't make the AoMF redundant for the monk, end of discussion. My own favoured solution is to make the monk what it SHOULD be, the star unarmed fighter, by giving the monk enhancement to their unarmed strike as the ki-strike.
Combine this with the AoMF for properties and wis-to-hit and I have found it balances fairly nicely: less emphasis on strength (but strength is still useful for damage) means that what you lose there in damage you can recoup by getting an AoMF with properties on and stacking with ki-strike for the equivelant of full enhancement.
Overall though, the class works at least for myself. I will not speak for others in that regard.
It works for you because you are frankly very good at system mastery. You could probably make any class excel. The problem is that I have had beginners try the monk and give up almost at once. The monk is too hard to make work for most players, and even when you can make it work you have less leeway to "customize" the character rather than stamp a cookie-cutter.
I thought it would be fun if monks added Dex to hit and Wis to damage in addition to strength mod.
That way their MADness isn't a weakness.
Nah, it's still a problem because you are stacking two mods together. Not everyone uses point-buy, and a diced-up monk could end up brokenly good if you got lucky. Also, it could lead to the monk being a constant dip to get an extra few points to hit/damage.
I guess I sort of find "agile" offensive. e.g., how about we add a +1 armor enchant that lets the fighter add his strength to his AC? or an int one for the wizard? It's just cheesy.
How so? You aren't adding the dex bonus to the strength bonus, and dexterity-based fighters have a tough enough time of it already without more nerfs. I do get your train of thought, but the practice does not not come anywhere close to cheesy.
Though, the mad/sad thing is an issue. I don't know. What I used to do was just keep any monk ideas i had around until i happened to roll a character with 4 17s or something like that. But with point buy that isn't really a valid approach.
No, it's not, I agree. My answer as I mentioned above is wis-to-hit so the monk can focus on one top stat and a couple of moderate ones like every other class.
So, I guess don't have a solution. I don't like "agile", though. Maybe it would be OK if it cost a feat or if it were a class feature, as you guys are saying.
I confess I don't like an entire class being dependent on one item or feat. Once it's a must-have, it should really be a class feature because it's no longer optional and yet can be denied.
Nah, it's still a problem because you are stacking two mods together. Not everyone uses point-buy, and a diced-up monk could end up brokenly good if you got lucky. Also, it could lead to the monk being a constant dip to get an extra few points to hit/damage.
If you are rolling for stats, then you should never expect balance in the first place.
For the second point you could have these bonuses apply for only monk special attacks. Of course then you would want to give monks something like flurry that they can use as a standard action, at the end of a charge, and during AOOs.
Not a full attack mind you, more like vital strike but usable.
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1) The dispel will more likely than not fall. Only a 55% of getting through my SR. Then the dispel only has a 70% of dispelling my bracers for 1d4 rounds. So...This is especially true since he can summon another balor, and through a combination of full attacks and greater dispel magic at will cut your monk into tiny pieces.1) He can't summon another balor. He can only summon 1 CR 19 or lower demon (which the best thing he can summon is a MARILITH. Which can do next to nothing against my monk, or your fighter except for his will save).
2) I would LOVE it if he tried to suppress a single magic item for 1d4 rounds every turn. It's his full attack that is dangerous to me. Dispel magic does next to nothing to me, even the greater version.
Combat starts - he is 30ft. from you. He dispel's your bracers of armor. Suddenly your AC goes from being something he hits on a 10 to being something he hits on a 2. He can now afford to power attack. Alternatively he hits your amulet of mighty fists - you now do almost no damage when attacking him, since you cannot beat his DR and have no backup. What do you do?
A Marilith might not be an overt combat threat. Lets look at some other options though. Core demons can provide spells at will ranging from chaos hammer, to unholy blight, to darkness. While the first two do mild damage to your monk (since he saves) they can slowly chip away at him with his complete lack of ranged attack options. Darkness and deeper darkness wreck your monks defense and offense, especially against an opponent with reach. Any creature provides a flank. Even a Vrock can provide enough damage with spores to wear you down over time. Many beings provide their own greater dispel magics to keep your key magic items off while the balor thrashes you (since most of your key items fall between CL 15 and 16).
I stand by my original statement - in a 1v1 a balor would wreck my fighter and your monk - period.
I was just reading through the thread, and I got to this part. Just wanted to mention that dispel magic ignores spell-resistance. If someone else pointed it out, my apologies. Back to reading through the thread.
Perception is heavily shaped from experience, so your views are fair in that regard.
Bear in mind that all versions of those monks I build were PFS legal. Prior to us joining PFS, we also played very harsh campaigns because we all had high levels of system mastery. What made that less fun for us was that in such games, only the spellcasters serve any true capability at high level.
I remade my home wizard into PFS as best I was able, and he turned out largely the same. He runs Aroden's spellbane to immunize himself to antimagic field, greater dispel magic, dispel magic, and mage's disjunction. If he expects heavy suppression, he casts another one with siphon magic and wall of suppression just so that there is absolutely no taking his buffs from him. He also has a ton of druid spells from Magaambyan Arcanist, highlights being antilife shell, barkskin, death ward, freedom of movement, greater magic fang, heal, and strong jaw, which is just silly to add to a wizard's list, especially considering how the natural weapon buffs interact with shapechange.
While those kinds of games can be fun in a sense, they also completely break the balance of the system for non-casters. Depending on just how "harsh" your games were, I can't imagine your fighter's would fair well against persistent mage's disjunction. Not only buffs goodbye, but kiss those magic items so long for 17+ minutes as well.
For no holds barred home games, those monks would look different. Whether you would find them to your tastes or not though, I cannot say.
I personally prefer survivability and defense over offense.
We always throw in encounters balanced to require the martials to do something. Like I said, we threw out CR. So what they ended up fighting was usually a balanced party with a few powerful martials well-supported by a healer and some casters. If the caster attempted to take all the glory, he became the focus of the attack. He had to make as many saves to resist attack as he sent at them.
Just as an example, a mind blank-ed invisible Arcane Trickster whose sole job is to fly about killing opponent casters with greater sniper goggles to stay outside of invisibility purge was one opponent. Let's just say casters don't spend all their time focusing on taking out martials when Mr. Deadly Ray Boy is trying to kill them from ranges that exceed their spell ranges. Casters spent a lot of time trying to stay alive, so the martials were able to go toe to toe with other martials. Encounters are built to put casters on their heels as well as martials. It's harder to do. But a lot of time at high levels it comes down to initiative for casters.
All encounters weren't like this. You have to let casters show their power sometimes. They did screw things up. But casters in general liked letting martials do the damage. They did far more than the casters were capable of in a ground. So it was often their best course of action to let the martials beat on an enemy with moderate buffs than to try to take it out themselves.
I do find certain spells pretty annoying. Once prediction of failure was added to the game, if something wasn't immune to fear or mind-effecting effects it was pretty screwed. I had a player use it over and over gain. Paizo still hasn't fixed the damn spell to reduce it to a round or something. For all intents and purposes it's a no save spell that gives a =4 penalty to saves and attack rolls for the duration of a combat. Couple that with spells like battlemind link and enervate and a caster can quickly lower an opponent's save to -8 setting up some nasty spell effect. Makes you work as a DM.
Then again I prefer wizards and other casters be the baddest on the block. That is how books are. I think that is how a fantasy game should be. There are legendary martials like Conan or King Arthur. But Merlin and the wizards in the Conan books inspired greater fear because of their arcane power. Martials were something a populace could understand. Wizards and casters are supposed to have the kind of power that inspires awe and fear even amongst the greatest martials. It think game captures that well at high level.
Also the casters in our party don't generally leave the non-casters hanging. We usually get rid of mage's disjunction with a targeted greater dispel magic specifically to remove the effect. Spellcraft to figure out what it is, greater dispel magic to remove it. Get the boys back in action. If your opponent takes out the martials, then his own martials can cause you enough problems for him to get the win. It's far easier for a caster to buff up his martials and use them as weapons, than expend his power trying to take everyone out, at least that is often the case in our games.
Dabbler,
My monk is strength-based. I don't use agile.
My main beef is the Magus and Inquisitor moreso than the fighter. The fighter should hit more often. I don't mind his fighting prowess being better at all.
The Magus and Inquisitor are both 3/4 BAB classes with numerous means to boost their attack. Yet they don't give the monk and rogue a means to boost their attack? It's marginalizing two classes by giving the Magus and Inquisitor such incredible offensive and defensive capability. There is no reason to limit the monk and rogue with those two classes in the game. All the normal excuses the game designers use are gone. Those two classes have strong offense and strong defense and they are 3/4 BAB. You only play a monk or rogue now because you enjoy the class. If you want to be on par offensively and defensively with anyone in the group, you play Inquisitor or Magus.
Well, not exactly up the creek, as he is still potentially running a 66 or 67 AC (depending on the version) without a single buff - can't dispel fighting defensive, Combat Expertise, and Ki dodge. But your point is well taken.
I wouldn't mind seeing the monk have a class mechanic to allow Dex or Wis for hit and/or damage. But in doing that, the other classic finesse characters would likely want a similar option, and it starts a big chain reaction.
Another good option is handwraps that work just like an amulet of mighty fists, but don't cost double gold, and can go up to +10 like a normal weapon. Without Qinggong for barkskin, that choice just sucks.
Overall though, the class works at least for myself. I will not speak for others in that regard.
Every other class except the rogue and monk have a means to boost hit.
Paladin and Ranger have spells. Barbarian has Reckless Abandon and rage. Fighter has Weapon Spec/Training. Magus has spells and Magus Arcana. Inquisitor has judgment, bane, and spell. Cavalier and Samurai have Challenge with particular orders.
Monk and rogue are the red-headed step children of boosting their attack roll. They are the only martial classes without the means to boost their attack roll. The monk is the only class without the means to boost his damage.
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Nah, it's still a problem because you are stacking two mods together. Not everyone uses point-buy, and a diced-up monk could end up brokenly good if you got lucky. Also, it could lead to the monk being a constant dip to get an extra few points to hit/damage.If you are rolling for stats, then you should never expect balance in the first place.
That's no excuse for designing for unbalance, though, is it? The point is to fix the monk without producing solutions that are open to abuse.
For the second point you could have these bonuses apply for only monk special attacks. Of course then you would want to give monks something like flurry that they can use as a standard action, at the end of a charge, and during AOOs.
Not a full attack mind you, more like vital strike but usable.
How about allow the monk his extra attack for a ki-point on any attack action, be it a standard attack or a flurry-of-blows? That's what I've done, along with allow the 20' bonus movement as a swift action. Over a short distance the monk can move and flurry, over a longer distance he can move and hit twice.
If Monks require system mastery, your response should be to master the system, not to be lazy.
This is completely at odds with your statement below. Also, system mastery is relative - I'm passing good at building monks, I can make a monk that I thought was about as good as a monk could get, but Lormyr left me agag with the way he teased buffs out of nothing for a non-caster.
The other issue is that different people have different play-styles, and some styles do not sit with optimising to the max.
That said, I will concede that Monks do have an accessibility problem in regards to new players.
Exactly one point being made.
Their choices aren't intuitive like they are for a Fighter. I would not say this is because you have to search for every bonus, etc etc. I'd compare this to playing a Wizard and learning what your spells can do, honestly.
No it's not. The rules for a wizard's spells are written down clearly in black and white: you play a wizard, pick up the book, read what your spells do, use them, and there's no messing about. There ARE no rules written down for the monk, it's not like you can look them up. There are items and buffs tucked away here and there that if brought together in combination can make the monk effective, but there's no index to them like there is to spells. To play a wizard, a new player just has to spend ten minutes reading up on new spells now and then; to play a monk you need to know the entire game system backwards.
The other problem is that once you learn these rules they lock you into cookie-cutter characters more often than not, where of all the options available only a few will result in an effective character.
Dabbler,
My monk is strength-based. I don't use agile.
That's cool. Personally I don't like the strength-based monk simply because I don't see hulking mountains of muscle as an archetypal monk, but I don't have any problem with those that want them, and I want them to remain viable whatever changes are made.
My main beef is the Magus and Inquisitor moreso than the fighter. The fighter should hit more often. I don't mind his fighting prowess being better at all.
Hell no - I don't want the monk out-hitting the fighter either. It's what the fighter is good at. I just want it easier to get the monk onto the same playing field as the other martials, and not have them sat on the bleachers.
The Magus and Inquisitor are both 3/4 BAB classes with numerous means to boost their attack. Yet they don't give the monk and rogue a means to boost their attack? It's marginalizing two classes by giving the Magus and Inquisitor such incredible offensive and defensive capability. There is no reason to limit the monk and rogue with those two classes in the game. All the normal excuses the game designers use are gone. Those two classes have strong offense and strong defense and they are 3/4 BAB. You only play a monk or rogue now because you enjoy the class. If you want to be on par offensively and defensively with anyone in the group, you play Inquisitor or Magus.
I agree with you, it's pretty crazy that the monk not only gets no accuracy boost but if unarmed has to suffer lower enhancement too. Combine that with MAD and you understand why monk attacks are referred to as "flurry-of-misses" if they aren't built just right.
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I agree, but Paizo have stated categorically that this isn't going to happen. They won't make the AoMF redundant for the monk, end of discussion.
Well that is an unfortunate tactical blunder then.
It works for you because you are frankly very good at system mastery. You could probably make any class excel. The problem is that I have had beginners try the monk and give up almost at once.
On that, we fully agree. The monk is very difficult to just pick and go with if you are not aware of the best manner in which to run him. Most monks are also poorly designed because of your aforementioned issues. I'm still cringing at Sanjan.
I do find certain spells pretty annoying. Once prediction of failure was added to the game, if something wasn't immune to fear or mind-effecting effects it was pretty screwed.
That one is somewhat harsh. I actually find a 1st level spell harsher, though. ill omen, specially if you use spell perfection to quicken it for free at will? You eat that with no save as a swift action, and then the caster casts a persisted spell he wants to land at you. At that point you are effectively making 4 saving throws and keeping the lower. I'd rather have the -4. :p
Also the casters in our party don't generally leave the non-casters hanging. We usually get rid of mage's disjunction with a targeted greater dispel magic specifically to remove the effect.
A sound strategy, just one that has potential to fail in the dispel check. We had that happen on occassion. We found readying to counter the damn disjunction more cost effective.
Every other class except the rogue and monk have a means to boost hit.
Truth.
This game suffers from power creep just like any other, though. The APG classes are very strong compared to the CRB ones. I shudder to think how these 10 new classes are going to look when they come out next year.
Rogues are so much fun though with some dust of disappearance, or two-weapon feint, or dazzling display + shatter defenses + huge intimidate, or a few other combos.
Did you know that a knife master with a plain old dagger and Celestial Obedience at 20th level can deal 13d8+26 damage in just sneak attack damage per hit?
I agree, but Paizo have stated categorically that this isn't going to happen. They won't make the AoMF redundant for the monk, end of discussion.Well that is an unfortunate tactical blunder then.
Yes and no. Yes, because it leaves the monk nerfed. No, because it gives leverage to fix the class properly and not patch it with magic items.
It works for you because you are frankly very good at system mastery. You could probably make any class excel. The problem is that I have had beginners try the monk and give up almost at once.On that, we fully agree. The monk is very difficult to just pick and go with if you are not aware of the best manner in which to run him. Most monks are also poorly designed because of your aforementioned issues. I'm still cringing at Sanjan.
Yep, that was bad. Not only was he a terrible monk, he wasn't even a legal monk. Sadly, though, this is making something really clear: the guys at Paizo clearly do not play monks much, if at all. No offence, guys, it's just kinda obvious.
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I don't see why the Monk's SR is being discounted here. Yeah it can be a pain in a group, but in the original challenge (soloing a Balor), SR is extremely handy to avoid getting OHKO-ed by at-will stun/dominate. The Fighter will be extremely handicapped in that scenario, particularly since Mind Blank doesn't grant immunity to that sort of thing anymore and becoming undead is much harder in PF.
The point Psyren is that while the fighter is more vulnerable, he's not vulnerable for AS LONG as the monk. He does so much damage that the balor never gets more than two attempts, and maybe even only one. Also the balor doesn't have that many 'awesome' SLAs that are that relevant, he's better off trying for a crit with those vorpal weapons or just teleporting away.
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The point Psyren is that while the fighter is more vulnerable, he's not vulnerable for AS LONG as the monk. He does so much damage that the balor never gets more than two attempts, and maybe even only one. Also the balor doesn't have that many 'awesome' SLAs that are that relevant, he's better off trying for a crit with those vorpal weapons or just teleporting away.
How are high-DC SoDs targeting the Fighter's weak save somehow not relevant?
Yes, he does a ton of damage, but the Balor has a 90ft. fly speed and quickened TK with a CMB of +28. (Note that this is yet another attack the Monk has additional protection from.) And he's smart enough to know all this in-character to boot.
Playing midair keep-away until he telekinetically grapples the fighter, then staying in range and spamming dominate will shut him down in pretty short order.
Yes, he does a ton of damage, but the Balor has a 90ft. fly speed and quickened TK with a CMB of +28. (Note that this is yet another attack the Monk has additional protection from.) And he's smart enough to know all this in-character to boot.
Playing midair keep-away until he telekinetically grapples the fighter, then staying in range and spamming dominate will shut him down in pretty short order.
I don't think any fighter that is even remotely capable of standing up to a balor is going to have a problem with a +28 CMB.
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I don't think any fighter that is even remotely capable of standing up to a balor is going to have a problem with a +28 CMB.Yes, he does a ton of damage, but the Balor has a 90ft. fly speed and quickened TK with a CMB of +28. (Note that this is yet another attack the Monk has additional protection from.) And he's smart enough to know all this in-character to boot.
Playing midair keep-away until he telekinetically grapples the fighter, then staying in range and spamming dominate will shut him down in pretty short order.
If he can't actually hit the Balor, the Balor will land it eventually.
Did I mention the at-will teleportation?
The point Psyren is that while the fighter is more vulnerable, he's not vulnerable for AS LONG as the monk. He does so much damage that the balor never gets more than two attempts, and maybe even only one. Also the balor doesn't have that many 'awesome' SLAs that are that relevant, he's better off trying for a crit with those vorpal weapons or just teleporting away.How are high-DC SoDs targeting the Fighter's weak save somehow not relevant?
They are relevant, just not as relevant as you think. If we take my fighter as an example, he has Improved Iron Will, which grants a second save and makes the odds of success much greater. Plus, protection from evil is a buff that the whole party is going to have active if they know they are going up against a creature that can dominate monster at will. That means the balor is going to have to lead with a greater dispel just to be sure to get rid of any buffs.
Yes, he does a ton of damage, but the Balor has a 90ft. fly speed and quickened TK with a CMB of +28. (Note that this is yet another attack the Monk has additional protection from.) And he's smart enough to know all this in-character to boot.
...and my fighter is smart enough to know he has a CMD of 56 vs grapple, against which a piddling +28 isn't going to achieve much. Both the monk and the fighter have winged boots, and a friendly haste spell has them flying as fast as the balor. Not that they need it, see below.
Playing midair keep-away until he telekinetically grapples the fighter, then staying in range and spamming dominate will shut him down in pretty short order.
As demonstrated, playing mid-air keep-away doesn't work. TK doesn't work. Dominate has a chance to work after a dispel, but the round you spend dispelling is the round that the fighter is closing, and what is more dominate only has a range of 75 feet, less than a single move hasted or a charge with those winged boots. Then you have two options, run and take the AoOs, or stick around and hope the first dominate works. Only the fighter has Improved Iron Will, giving the net chance of success for the balor at 20%, which isn't good for the balor.
Now the difference between the monk and the fighter shows, because the fighter has a 40% chance of killing the balor outright in the first round of full attacking, just from raw damage and the odds of a crit. More, if he's already injured the balor on his charge (almost a certainty). He definitely kills the balor on round two (280 mean DPR on the balor, but the bonus damage of just one critical hit takes it over 370). That means the balor has about a mean 35% chance of getting a successful dominate within those two rounds, assuming he wins initiative. Without it he has a 12% chance of getting in a dominate.
The monk, on the other hand, takes around four rounds to kill the balor from damage. That means he'll take four or five dominates, each with a 50/50 chance to get through his SR. I can't recall his odds of saving, call them 90%, and the chance of his failing one of his saves over four rounds, AND it getting through his SR, is about 19%. Note that the SR is not a huge factor here, because the chances of saving anyway are really good.
However, against the monk the balor is more likely get a success with his vorpal blades (it's horribly complicated to work out though), which work out something like around 30%-40%. No saves vs decapitation, I am afraid.
So you see the fighter's raw damage means he is exposed for less time, even though he is more vulnerable (oh, and this fighter has a sub-optimal weapon, another build could rack up far worse damage). Both have about the same odds of failure, but the monk takes a lot longer and takes more damage doing so.
Edit: True you have at-will teleportation, but that works as well against the monk as it does against the fighter, and again in a party context dimensional anchor is a must when fighting a creature of this ilk.
The monk, on the other hand, takes around four rounds to kill the balor from damage. That means he'll take four or five dominates, each with a 50/50 chance to get through his SR. I can't recall his odds of saving, call them 90%, and the chance of his failing one of his saves over four rounds, AND it getting through his SR, is about 19%. Note that the SR is not a huge factor here, because the chances of saving anyway are really good.
However, against the monk the balor is more likely get a success with his vorpal blades (it's horribly complicated to work out though), which work out something like around 30%-40%. No saves vs decapitation, I am afraid.
Wrong on (almost)all accounts. The Balor must roll a 10 or better to get through SR, meaning 55% of getting through. The monk with still mind, has a +27 to a DC will save of 27, meaning he fails 5% of the time (since 1s auto fail). .55*5 = 2.75%
Therefore a monk chance of getting dominated in 4 rounds is: 10.5%
To kill with vorpal you must confirm the crit. A monk with 41 AC.
Sword: .05*.55 + .05*.3 + .05*.05 + .05*.05 = .0475
Whip: .05*.50 + .05*.25+ .05*.05 = .04
Total chance is 8.75%
After 4 rounds the monk has a 30.7% of death (oh my looks like you were right here).
Although the previous DPR math has a core monk spending a ki point each round to get an extra attack to kill the Balor in 3 rounds, not 4.
With that chances of dominate is 8% and vorpal death is 24%.
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Hmmm. How many effects are there out there that could hit a Fighter and Monk that would remove the dex bonus to their AC? Which would would have a better chance of surviving it?Feint will do it. So will invisibility. Losing initiative is also a problem since neither has uncanny dodge. Getting grappled can also do it, but that's unlikely to work well on either class.
Fighter has more HP and flat footed AC unless the monk has pushed wisdom to impractical levels. A level 20 monk would need 28 wisdom to match the flat footed AC of a fighter in properly enhanced plate or 40 to match a fighter also using a properly enhanced shield -- 42 if it's a heavy shield.
Flat footed incorporeal touch attacks should be eventually handled by an armor property, but until they are the monk will do better.
Other flat footed touch attacks the monk is better at since they are utterly broken and monks and druids are the only classes that can do anything about them at all and for druid it involves turning into a diminutive bat or hedgehog.
I find feint to be the most reliable option. Invisibility works well with ranged, but simply having the blind-fight feat negates most bonuses from attacking invisibly with melee.
40 wis? The level 20 monk with magic items I posted earlier thread had a 26 wis and a 44 flat-footed AC (or 48 with shield in effect).
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Discussing monk vs. balor and fighter vs. balor with various math percentages.
I find some of those percentages you are using to be dubious, particularly the chances of the monk being vorpaled and/or dominated over the course of 4 rounds.
Depending on the monk build in question, it might well stomp that balor every bit as fast as the fighter. One of the damage build I threw out earlier thread had an attack routine of:
+37/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22 (16d8+51/19-20). He would also be rolling 2d20 for each attack roll and keeping the best result.
A standard balor is unlikely to survive a round of that punishment either.
Edit: True you have at-will teleportation, but that works as well against the monk as it does against the fighter, and again in a party context dimensional anchor is a must when fighting a creature of this ilk.
Not necessarily. If the monk in question chose to pursue the dimensional dervish line of feats, he could quite literally pop right in on it with a full attack.
A balor is not a terribly scary CR 20 foe either in fairness. If we want a real test of manliness we'd be going up against a CR 20 ancient gold dragon. :p
I do find certain spells pretty annoying. Once prediction of failure was added to the game, if something wasn't immune to fear or mind-effecting effects it was pretty screwed.That one is somewhat harsh. I actually find a 1st level spell harsher, though. ill omen, specially if you use spell perfection to quicken it for free at will? You eat that with no save as a swift action, and then the caster casts a persisted spell he wants to land at you. At that point you are effectively making 4 saving throws and keeping the lower. I'd rather have the -4. :p
Are you playing a witch? Ill Omen is a witch spell. Wizard can't Quicken it and cast it. Each Persistent Save would count as one d20 roll. So two uses of D20 rolls would cause him to reroll each d20 save. That leaves 3 uses left. At that level not a lot dies with a single spell or is even removed from the game, not to mention saves are extremely high.
Prediction of Failure works the entire combat for everyone attacking. The cleric's spells. The fighter using critical feats. The Monk Stunning Fist. The Rogue poison or Sneak attack effects. It's to hit rolls. It's skill checks.
Also the casters in our party don't generally leave the non-casters hanging. We usually get rid of mage's disjunction with a targeted greater dispel magic specifically to remove the effect.
A sound strategy, just one that has potential to fail in the dispel check. We had that happen on occassion. We found readying to counter the damn disjunction more cost effective.
Every other class except the rogue and monk have a means to boost hit.
Truth.
This game suffers from power creep just like any other, though. The APG classes are very strong compared to the CRB ones. I shudder to think how these 10 new classes are going to look when they come out next year.
Rogues are so...
I read that ability. Nasty, nasty ability if you make it to 20. I am running a knifemaster ninja (we allow exchanging equivalent abilities to obtain archetypes) right now. If he takes that Celestial Obedience and gets Agile on his daggers, he is going to make everyone else's damage look pretty sad.
I don't see why the Monk's SR is being discounted here. Yeah it can be a pain in a group, but in the original challenge (soloing a Balor), SR is extremely handy to avoid getting OHKO-ed by at-will stun/dominate. The Fighter will be extremely handicapped in that scenario, particularly since Mind Blank doesn't grant immunity to that sort of thing anymore and becoming undead is much harder in PF.
I don't discount the monk's SR. It can be very useful. If you have a large group of demons (a very common occurrence at higher level) barraging you with spells like unholy blight that SR is very useful. That damage adds up. They pretty much shrug off lower level Spell-like abilities with that SR. That is very useful in combat.
The SR is hit or miss in BBEG combats. Getting lucky enough to shrug off a dangerous spell from a high level caster is pretty nice as well. Most of the time a high level caster will penetrate SR. Too many ways to raise caster level checks at high level.
Wrong on (almost)all accounts.
Therefore a monk chance of getting dominated in 4 rounds is: 10.5%
I did say I was guessing. And that's only ONE account.
However, my point remains that the balor is better off chopping the monk up than trying the jedi mind-tricks, and his odds of losing are about the same as the fighter's. The critical difference being that the fighter is finishing the fight faster.
To kill with vorpal you must confirm the crit. A monk with 41 AC.
Sword: .05*.55 + .05*.3 + .05*.05 + .05*.05 = .0475
Whip: .05*.50 + .05*.25+ .05*.05 = .04Total chance is 8.75%
After 4 rounds the monk has a 30.7% of death (oh my looks like you were right here).
Again, I was guessing ball-park figures. However, to get the accurate figures you don't add the probabilities, you multiply the odds of NOT getting a confirmed critical for each hit, then multiply the odds of NOT getting a critical per round together. In this case, they work out to about the same. We've both ignored the AoO's they take charging the balor, but that's OK as your monk's agility and my fighter's reach mean in effect that he won't get any.
Although the previous DPR math has a core monk spending a ki point each round to get an extra attack to kill the Balor in 3 rounds, not 4.
With that chances of dominate is 8% and vorpal death is 24%.
I used your DPR figures - don't forget you have to close with the balor (only getting one hit), and it can afford to sit there and then full-attack you, so it gets four rounds beating on you to three of you beating on it.
So overall, "Wrong on (almost)all accounts" up there actually means "Wrong on just one account (and that one you admitted you were only guessing)..."
Edit: and there's one other important difference I must point out - the party context. If the characters are with a party that is supporting them, the fighter's condition can be alleviated with one protection from evil spell, and he's right back to killing the balor. It's going to take a true resurrection to get your monk back into the fight.
I find some of those percentages you are using to be dubious, particularly the chances of the monk being vorpaled and/or dominated over the course of 4 rounds.
This comparison was done with Markthus' monk and my fighter, neither of which are paragons of optimization, using CRB only, not one of yours.
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Are you playing a witch? Ill Omen is a witch spell. Wizard can't Quicken it and cast it. Each Persistent Save would count as one d20 roll. So two uses of D20 rolls would cause him to reroll each d20 save. That leaves 3 uses left. At that level not a lot dies with a single spell or is even removed from the game, not to mention saves are extremely high.
Prediction of Failure works the entire combat for everyone attacking. The cleric's spells. The fighter using critical feats. The Monk Stunning Fist. The Rogue poison or Sneak attack effects. It's to hit rolls. It's skill checks.
No no, not a witch. There are numerous ways for other classes to add that spell to their spell list, though.
If you cannot kill or disable the enemy with one spell after that, then sure, prediction might be superior for you. Our casters tend to be extremely absolute though, so that one spell is generally all we'd need.
This comparison was done with Markthus' monk and my fighter, neither of which are paragons of optimization, using CRB only, not one of yours.Understood. I somehow missed that fact and apologize for the misunderstanding.
None necessary, it's a long and complex thread!
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They are relevant, just not as relevant as you think. If we take my fighter as an example, he has Improved Iron Will, which grants a second save and makes the odds of success much greater. Plus, protection from evil is a buff that the whole party is going to have active if they know they are going up against a creature that can dominate monster at will. That means the balor is going to have to lead with a greater dispel just to be sure to get rid of any buffs.The point Psyren is that while the fighter is more vulnerable, he's not vulnerable for AS LONG as the monk. He does so much damage that the balor never gets more than two attempts, and maybe even only one. Also the balor doesn't have that many 'awesome' SLAs that are that relevant, he's better off trying for a crit with those vorpal weapons or just teleporting away.How are high-DC SoDs targeting the Fighter's weak save somehow not relevant?
Again, the original challenge was one-on-one. Fighters can't cast Protection from Evil. If you assume a whole party then there's no point as the wizard/cleric/druid can simply banish it or otherwise win.
Yes, he does a ton of damage, but the Balor has a 90ft. fly speed and quickened TK with a CMB of +28. (Note that this is yet another attack the Monk has additional protection from.) And he's smart enough to know all this in-character to boot....and my fighter is smart enough to know he has a CMD of 56 vs grapple, against which a piddling +28 isn't going to achieve much.
Out of curiosity, do you have the breakdown for this figure?
Both the monk and the fighter have winged boots, and a friendly haste spell has them flying as fast as the balor. Not that they need it, see below.
Fighters can't cast haste. One-on-one.
A balor is not a terribly scary CR 20 foe either in fairness. If we want a real test of manliness we'd be going up against a CR 20 ancient gold dragon. :p
All the more reason why this is a good test. A AGD would be a challenge for a party, so the Balor can surely be handled solo, right?
Basically my assumptions are these: full WBL, but no hirelings or UMD to grant necessary spells. Core-only items, feats, archetypes etc.
Once you go outside core, the Monk gets Qinggong or Zen Archer and wrecks the fighter utterly.
Wrong on (almost)all accounts.
Therefore a monk chance of getting dominated in 4 rounds is: 10.5%
I did say I was guessing. And that's only ONE account.
However, my point remains that the balor is better off chopping the monk up than trying the jedi mind-tricks, and his odds of losing are about the same as the fighter's. The critical difference being that the fighter is finishing the fight faster.
Fighter takes 3 rounds to finish the fight (move, full attack, full attack)
Monk takes 4 rounds to finish the fight (move, full attack, full attack, full attack)
Even though the fighter has more than double the DPR of the monk, he still needs 2 full attacks to kill the Balor.
Both of these assume idea situation where the Balor doesn't just fly/teleport away.
You are right the Balor's best bet to defeat the monk is to trade full-attacks. That is not the strategy that the Balor would want to use to defeat the fighter.
I maintain that a balor will wreck any core monk or fighter in a 1v1 conflict if played up to its mental ability scores.
Are you playing a witch? Ill Omen is a witch spell. Wizard can't Quicken it and cast it. Each Persistent Save would count as one d20 roll. So two uses of D20 rolls would cause him to reroll each d20 save. That leaves 3 uses left. At that level not a lot dies with a single spell or is even removed from the game, not to mention saves are extremely high.
Prediction of Failure works the entire combat for everyone attacking. The cleric's spells. The fighter using critical feats. The Monk Stunning Fist. The Rogue poison or Sneak attack effects. It's to hit rolls. It's skill checks.
No no, not a witch. There are numerous ways for other classes to add that spell to their spell list, though.
If you cannot kill or disable the enemy with one spell after that, then sure, prediction might be superior for you. Our casters tend to be extremely absolute though, so that one spell is generally all we'd need.
Your casters are no more absolute than the ones I run. I know of few single spells that can effectively end a fight without a save. I certainly don't run things "by the book", so that save is not hard to make. Paizo is extremely poor at monster and opponent design. If I ran things as they were in the various books against players sifting books for strategies, I might as well not even DM. Dragons would be trivial given all the spell options available to players. This has been common to every edition of the game. I compensate accordingly for what you call "system mastery" or its more common name "min-maxing".
How can you get that spell added to your wizard list? I've only found two methods: Samsaran race or Arcane Savant. Or is this the usual get Use Magic Device skill and have your familiar use a wand? Unless of course the DM allows you to research the spell. Some other book or feat I don't know about?
I'd love to know what book or feat you found in some obscure book to add this to your list. I believe there is a magic item that might allow it as well. A spell power page. I think that is mostly for sorcerers.
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40 wis? The level 20 monk with magic items I posted earlier thread had a 26 wis and a 44 flat-footed AC (or 48 with shield in effect).Everything you have except the wisdom bonus and monk level/4 the fighter can have as well. And he has 14 from +5 plate and potentially 6 from a +5 light shield or buckler.
That is true, although a number of those things cause overlap that do not benefit the fighter (such as bracers of armor with actual armor, shield spell with an actual shield, ect.)
I'm not saying that a monk's flat-footed can or should always blow a fighters away or vice versa - just saying that they can easily be made very comparable.
A fighter is pretty straight forward in such a regard.
10 base
14 armor
7 shield
5 natural
5 deflection
2 luck
1 insight
44 flat-footed with little shenanigans. Reasonably comparable to a defensive monk.
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Your casters are no more absolute than the ones I run. I know of few single spells that can effectively end a fight without a save. I certainly don't run things "by the book", so that save is not hard to make.
Well, of course things are going to play out differently if we don't run things "by the book". I'm not even going to attempt to discuss such circumstances because there is entirely too many variables to take into consideration for that.
How can you get that spell added to your wizard list?
My wizard does not need the spell, so I don't have it on his build. Reveal weakness giving you a -9 to your saves for a round more than does the trick for him.
If "Arcane Savant" is a generic word for "Pathfinder Savant", then those are infact the two sources a wizard could use to get it.
Sorcerer's have the much cheaper resource of ring of spell knowledge.
Probably the best one shot kill he has would be trap the soul juju:
Standard action: reveal weakness (-9 to AC and saves). no SR, no save to resist, just eat it
Free action: recall a spell with robe of runes to add +2 enhancement bonus to spell DCs for a round.
Swift action: persistent quickened trap the soul (DC 36 or 38 if you know the target's name)
With persist and reveal weakness, it's essentially make two DC 45/47 Will saves or peace out, homie.
For Fort saves, use polymorph any object instead, also DC 45.
Fighter takes 3 rounds to finish the fight (move, full attack, full attack)Wrong on (almost)all accounts.
Therefore a monk chance of getting dominated in 4 rounds is: 10.5%
I did say I was guessing. And that's only ONE account.
However, my point remains that the balor is better off chopping the monk up than trying the jedi mind-tricks, and his odds of losing are about the same as the fighter's. The critical difference being that the fighter is finishing the fight faster.
The damage per hit and crit multiplier (and the fact that the fighter doesn't need to confirm) mean that if the fighter scores just one critical hit in the first two rounds, the fight is over before the third round. As he crits on a 19-20, the odds of getting six non-crits in a row (opening attack plus full attack) is only 53%. So roughly half the time the fight is over by the end of round #2.
So the fighter needs on average one-and-a-half full attacks to kill the balor, half as many as the monk. Of course this fighter is using a less than optimal weapon - if he was swinging a falcatta two-handed the odds are the fight will end at the end of the first full-attack.
Monk takes 4 rounds to finish the fight (move, full attack, full attack, full attack)
Agreed, I was using your non-extra attack DPR.
Both of these assume idea situation where the Balor doesn't just fly/teleport away.
You are right the Balor's best bet to defeat the monk is to trade full-attacks. That is not the strategy that the Balor would want to use to defeat the fighter.
Agreed, and it leaves the odds of success for both of them at around the same level. The point I wanted to demonstrate is that the fighter is protected by the fact that the enemy dies before they get enough attempts at spamming their power for it to be significant.
Again, the original challenge was one-on-one. Fighters can't cast Protection from Evil. If you assume a whole party then there's no point as the wizard/cleric/druid can simply banish it or otherwise win.
Darn, guess that's a whole 50gp potion I'll have to pay for out of the 8,000gp spare cash my fighter build had knocking around.
Out of curiosity, do you have the breakdown for this figure?
Sure, I posted it above but here it is again.
Male Human Fighter 20
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +24
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Defense
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AC 41, touch 22, flat-footed 35 (+14 armor, +5 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 284 (20d10+160)
Fort +23, Ref +18, Will +17 (+5 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +5, fortification 25%; DR 5/—
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +5 Armor spikes +40/+35/+30/+25 (1d6+20/x2) and
. . +5 Speed Adamantine Guisarme +43/+43/+38/+33/+28 (2d4+31/19-20/x4) and
. . +5 Speed Adamantine Guisarme +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 (2d4+49/19-20/x4) (Power Attack included) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +35/+30/+25/+20 (1d3+15/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +35/+30/+25/+20 (1d3+15/x2)
Ranged +2 Composite longbow (Str +12) +29/+24/+19/+14 (1d8+16/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +1, bows +2, close +3, pole arms +4)
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Statistics
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Str 34, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 13, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +20; CMB +32 (+36 Disarming, +34 Grappling, +36 Sundering, +36 Tripping); CMD 54 (56 vs. Disarm, 56 vs. Grapple, 56 vs. Sunder, 56 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Expertise +/-6, Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Dodge, Greater Disarm, Greater Sunder, Greater Trip, Greater Weapon Focus (Guisarme), Greater Weapon Specialization (Guisarme), Improved Critical (Guisarme), Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Iron Will (1/day), Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Lunge, Power Attack -6/+12, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Guisarme), Weapon Specialization (Guisarme)
Skills Acrobatics +4, Climb +31, Escape Artist +4, Fly +4, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (engineering) +10, Perception +24, Ride +10, Stealth +4, Survival +13, Swim +21
Languages Common, Draconic
SQ ghost touch, weapon mastery (guisarme)
Other Gear +5 Armor spikes (magical), Fortification (light), , +2 Composite longbow (Str +12), +5 Speed Adamantine Guisarme, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical perfection +6, Cloak of resistance +5, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Manual of bodily health +2, Manual of gainful exercise +5, Manual of quickness of action +2, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Winged boots (3/day), 789 PP, 1 GP
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Improved Iron Will (1/day) - 0/1
Winged boots (3/day) - 0/3
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +5 (Ex) +5 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Expertise +/-6 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Fortification 25% You have a chance to negate critical hits on attacks.
Ghost touch Enhancement and armor bonus count against incorporeal creatures.
Greater Disarm When disarming a foe, their weapon lands 15 ft away in a random direction.
Greater Sunder When destroying an item, extra damage is transferred to the wielder.
Greater Trip Foes you trip provoke AoO when they are knocked prone.
Improved Disarm You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when disarming.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Weapon Mastery (Guisarme) (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Close) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Weapon Training (Pole Arms) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms
Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.
7891gp available for potions & other consumables.
Bear in mind, this guy isn't really well optimized, I could have done more with a falcata swung two-handed, I just liked the idea of doing something a bit unusual.
Fighters can't cast haste. One-on-one.
Potion. Not that it makes much difference because the dominate has to be used from within charge range of winged boots anyway.
All the more reason why this is a good test. A AGD would be a challenge for a party, so the Balor can surely be handled solo, right?
Actually, the REAL test is to put both monk and fighter in a 'standard' party and see who can contribute the most. You rarely solo monsters like this, more often it's a team effort on something of CR (APL+2 to +44) that really counts. Sadly, this is where the monk struggles the most.
Basically my assumptions are these: full WBL, but no hirelings or UMD to grant necessary spells. Core-only items, feats, archetypes etc.
Actually these are core-only builds.
Once you go outside core, the Monk gets Qinggong or Zen Archer and wrecks the fighter utterly.
Well there is also the point that the Zen Archer isn't really a typical monk - you'd have to compare him to an archery based fighter, which would probably be a lot closer than you may think.
I maintain that a balor will wreck any core monk or fighter in a 1v1 conflict if played up to its mental ability scores.
Yes, I agree this is an artificial situation we're engineering.
Fighter takes 3 rounds to finish the fight (move, full attack, full attack)Wrong on (almost)all accounts.
Therefore a monk chance of getting dominated in 4 rounds is: 10.5%
I did say I was guessing. And that's only ONE account.
However, my point remains that the balor is better off chopping the monk up than trying the jedi mind-tricks, and his odds of losing are about the same as the fighter's. The critical difference being that the fighter is finishing the fight faster.
The damage per hit and crit multiplier (and the fact that the fighter doesn't need to confirm) mean that if the fighter scores just one critical hit in the first two rounds, the fight is over before the third round. As he crits on a 19-20, the odds of getting six non-crits in a row (opening attack plus full attack) is only 53%. So roughly half the time the fight is over by the end of round #2.
So the fighter needs on average one-and-a-half full attacks to kill the balor, half as many as the monk. Of course this fighter is using a less than optimal weapon - if he was swinging a falcatta two-handed the odds are the fight will end at the end of the first full-attack.
There is no such thing as 1.5 full attacks. The DPR calculation took into account crit damage.
The CRB fighter needs ONE less full-attack than the monk to kill the Balor.
This is not so fast that they have more survivability than the monk.
I maintain that a balor will wreck any core monk or fighter in a 1v1 conflict if played up to its mental ability scores.
I'm not so certain a Balor would be able kill a core monk.
Like the balor, the monk can just escape whenever he feels like it.
The Balor's spells are no more effective to the monk, than the monk's stunning fist is to the Balor.
Which a non-flurry Stunning fist works 3.75% of the time
A flurry stunning fist works 4.75% of the time
The Balor can be as clever as he wants to be, but if one of those stunning fist connects, the Balor is dead.
The Balor's best bet to kill the monk is to trade full-attacks after using all his long range SLAs.
More likely than not, the Balor retreats.
The Balor just kills any non-archer fighter.
I maintain that a balor will wreck any core monk or fighter in a 1v1 conflict if played up to its mental ability scores.I'm not so certain a Balor would be able kill a core monk.
Like the balor, the monk can just escape whenever he feels like it.
The Balor's spells are no more effective to the monk, than the monk's stunning fist is to the Balor.
Which a non-flurry Stunning fist works 3.75% of the time
A flurry stunning fist works 4.75% of the timeThe Balor can be as clever as he wants to be, but if one of those stunning fist connects, the Balor is dead.
The Balor's best bet to kill the monk is to trade full-attacks after using all his long range SLAs.
More likely than not, the Balor retreats.
The balor will wreck the monk even before we get to spending the balor's treasure or customizing feats / skill points.
You are vastly underestimating the sheer number of options available to a balor. The summoning options alone even in core (to say nothing of some of the truly insane non-core options) are sufficient to let him beat the monk pretty much however he wants. Item suppression, battlefield shaping, and spamming of fort / will save or take damage spells by the balor and allies will probably allow him to kill the monk without taking a single point of damage if he so desires. It doesn't need to sleep. It doesn't need to eat. It can devote all of its time to killing the monk if the monk flees. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until the monk is dead.
I posted about this earlier in the thread, detailing some of the exact options I won't repeat here. I will repeat that I find it extremely unlikely that any core character could kill an intelligently played balor. It simply isn't that kind of monster. It is designed to be fought by a party, and typically within the context of an adventure that provides some degree of leverage by the party against the fiend. A single character in a death match simply cannot win against the tremendous number of available options.
It is as bad a benchmark for character power as a 1v1 fight between a monk and a fighter is. That simply is not how the game is played.
The balor will wreck the monk even before we get to spending the balor's treasure or customizing feats / skill points.
What!?
Who said that was even an option?
A Balor with PC WBL would wreck anything I could come up with using core only, even a paladin.