I did not carefully avoid it. That's why I posted it. The first compond sentence is independent of the second. Read it again. The first sentence has nothing to do with the second sentence or the rest of the text. The text for Spellstrike explains how to use the entire ability. The first sentence is the key to understanding Spellstrike. Paizo certainly did not write Spellstrike unaware that touch spells usually have multiple uses.Agreed, Paizo certainly was aware that some spells allow multiple touches, and, they explicitly state that spellstrike only works on the ONE free touch granted by the spell. Your reading of this literally makes that sentence meaningless.
No, it doesn't. You can Spellstrike in two discrete instances that need explanation. One is why casting a touch spell when using Spell Combat. One is when casting a Spell using a Standard action. Both instances are covered in the explanation for Spell Strike because both are relevant.
When you take a move action and cast a single standard action spell, you only get to Spellstrike once. You can deliver that with your melee weapon. Otherwise if you use only the first sentence, you would be left thinking you have to cast the spell, then start delivering it with the weapon.
Just like if you go by only the second sentence, you get the idea that you only get to use Spell Strike when delivering the free melee touch attack. Take everything together and you get the full explanation of the ability.
It provides the following:
1. Deliver touch spells you cast (no spell trigger items...you have to cast the spell) on your spell list through your melee weapon.
2. As part of a standard action cast, you can deliver the free touch attack that comes with the casting through your weapon.
3. You can use Spellstrike in conjunction with Spell Combat taking the normal penalties.
That is what all the text together provides.
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There are so many variables, how do you account for it? You're not always fighting creatures with armor or metal weapons. Some creatures are immune to cold, some are immune to electricity. frostbite makes you a bit harder to hit and makes your opponent do less damage by causing them to be fatigued. It lowers their AC and reflex saves by one by reducing their dex. I think you should just give it a try and see if you can find some good uses for it.Funny you should say that. I'd intended to have it before starting the thread. :p But aside from my group's most enthusiastic roleplayer I'm also an optimizer. I constantly tweak my character's projected build and, at the end of the day, I found myself wondering if it'd be more effective to bolster Frostbite with feats, etc. rather than Shocking Grasp. There are some feats that require a hard choice on which you're going to use as your "go-to" ability. Spell Perfection, for instance.
I posted a while back that at level 17, my current plan is to take Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus. Folks' praise of frostbite also got me wondering whether maybe Rime Spell and something else bolstering Frostbite might be more effective than a flat +2 to hit.
Things like that. I know that you can't account for every variable, but then I've seen the math wizards on these forums such as Artanthos (and you actually, with your mock combat featuring the magus versus ranger a few weeks back,) come up with some complex and highly illuminating numbers on occasion. I was hoping to maybe get that now, so I'd have a good idea on how much in character resources I should put into strengthening the frostbite option.
That's right. You were the one having a Magus discussion not too long ago. Sorry about the comment concerning your DPS.
You building towards the Swift Action Quickened shocking grasp nova build. I don't think frostbite will be able to compete with that except over multiple rounds.
Near as I can tell, the main advantage of a frostbite build is endurance and debuffing. You can sustain a higher damage number over a longer period of time with a single casting of a 1st level spell. You can cast frostbite a single time and get multiple hits. As you start to hit the level where creatures regularly have 200 or so hit points and shocking grasp tops out at 10d6, being able to use 10 frostbite touches with up to 10 attacks comes out to 10d6+100 damage. shocking grasp will give you a big 35 point hit in a single round, while frostbite will give you 135 points over ten attacks. This does not include crits, which can elevate both spells substantially.
But the frostbite spell does have the disadvantage of making you go all in when you cast it. You can't even cast buff spells on yourself after you do so because it will cause the frostbite to end. This can be a problem at higher level, because you will sometimes want to cast something else to protect yourself.
If I were you, I would think about how the rules work and when each spell would be better used. I think frostbite is better damage at higher level against groups of mooks when haste is on. shocking grasp is better against BBEG where you can nova. This is from a pure damage perspective and wanting to maintain the ability to cast defensive spells.
Another factor fuel your choice is your party composition. If you have a big hitting partner like a pouncing barbarian, focused archer, or two-hander fighter, no use wasting your time debuffing opponents that will be dead after an attack or two. Debuffing is good if you have weak damage dealers where the debuff will last a while or you have resource problems.
So many factors. I would take some time to think about how you work within your party. How long it takes your party to wipe out an enemy. How resource thin you are at the end of key battles. And then think about what each spell does.
Some key points to remember:
1. When frostbite is active, no use of Spell Combat. You want haste or blessing of fervor active.
2. Shocking grasp is cast and done. Spell Combat available to you on subsequent rounds.
So many factors. I would take some time to think about how you work within your party. How long it takes your party to wipe out an enemy. How resource thin you are at the end of key battles. And then think about what each spell does.
Thank you for your post Raith, I appreciate the advice. You've given me a lot to think about, and your reasoned response has answered a lot of the questions I had about how the two spells stack up.
I think I am going to take some time to think about what you've said, though don't be surprised if a few weeks from now you see another magus thread pop up. :)
Regarding Spellstrike, I think I'm going to go with your interpretation. I can still see the reasoning for ruling the other way, but your way makes things much simpler to run. The magus gets to use his weapon's crit range if he uses his weapon to deliver a touch spell. No muss, no fuss.
Elemental Touch cannot be used with spellstrike. It does not have a range of touch.
You gain a melee touch attack causing 1d6 points of damage of that energy type, along with a special effect described below.
Elemental Touch is a buff that provides you with melee touch attacks...
If a magus is not allowed to use elemental touch with his main trick... why is that spell on his spell list?
The thing I am not sure about is: can I stack the touches from Elemental Touch with touches from Frostbite?
RAW = no, but not sure, grey zone, needs a faq
RAI = yes
On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.
Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.
So a magus doesn't discharge his magus spells when wielding his "channeling" weapon when holding charges. And the entire point of Spellstrike/Spellcombat is to cast touch spells and then channel them through his ONE weapon of choice.
now if you look at this
you'll see that James Jacobs is for stacking...
also:
Chill touch essentially gives you a weapon that you can make a number of attacks with equal to your level. It's certainly poorly worded—it probably SHOULD say something more like a duration of 1 round/level and that you can make 1 attack each round.
And if you go look at Elemental Touch, that is EXACTLY what they did.
here
The RAI by James Jacobs is that it's only a touch spell for the first delivery, and after that it changes to a touch attack. This means it doesn't hold the charge, and stops functioning like a touch spell. Doesn't dissipate, can't accidentally discharge it, etc. This means it's easy to stack up lots of touch effects (Frostbite+Chill Touch+Elemental Touch+Shocking Grasp=all will discharge on the next touch). Normally, this would also mean you can't use those touch attacks with Spellstrike, but an unrelated post by JB implied you can, though he may not have been thinking of the spell working the same way James does.
I don't argue getting extra attacks, I argue channeling on a weapon hit only. The extra attack from my example would come from casting Frostbite!
Near as I can tell, the main advantage of a frostbite build is endurance and debuffing. You can sustain a higher damage number over a longer period of time with a single casting of a 1st level spell. You can cast frostbite a single time and get multiple hits. As you start to hit the level where creatures regularly have 200 or so hit points and shocking grasp tops out at 10d6, being able to use 10 frostbite touches with up to 10 attacks comes out to 10d6+100 damage. shocking grasp will give you a big 35 point hit in a single round, while frostbite will give you 135 points over ten attacks. This does not include crits, which can elevate both spells substantially.
Not sure if I missed something, but how do you manage to get 10 attacks in one round?
According to PRD,Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
I just can't figure out how the magus can dish out 10 frostbite touch attacks in one round.
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Elemental Touch cannot be used with spellstrike. It does not have a range of touch.You gain a melee touch attack causing 1d6 points of damage of that energy type, along with a special effect described below.Elemental Touch is a buff that provides you with melee touch attacks...
If a magus is not allowed to use elemental touch with his main trick... why is that spell on his spell list?
School evocation [acid, cold, electricity, or fire]; Level alchemist 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a bit of the chosen element: earth, water, air, or fire)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance no
Range = Personal
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
Elemental Touch has a range of personal. Spellstrike only applies to spells with a range of touch.
As much as I wish I could use Elemental Touch, it does not work. On the plus side, it is a buff, not a held charge. It does not go away if you cast another spell.
If your using Monstrous Physique for a large number of natural attacks, cast Elemental Touch followed by Frostbite.
Read the FAQ with a more discerning eye and you'll find that the Magus can pick up and use any weapon to deliver the spellstrike
The magus has to use a light or one-handed melee weapon...
When using spell combat, do I specifically have to use the weapon in my other hand, or can I use a mixture of weapons (such as armor spikes and bites) so long as my casting hand remains free?
You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.When using spell combat, can the weapon in my other hand be an unarmed strike or a natural weapon?
Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.
Multiple weapons don't work...
You can use Frostbite with multiple natural attacks (claw, bite, tail, ...) to max the amount of attacks, but that has nothing to do with any Magus mechanic... you could do that with any class that has access to touch attack spells.
Also 2-handed weapons have been ruled as "no-go" a long time ago... a magus is not supposed to let go 1 hand, cast, grab again, spellstrike with a 2-hander.
You can cast the spell, and it's on the magus spell list, but it fails to satisfy the second requirement of 'range: touch' because its range is actually Personal. It's not a touch spell, it's a personal buff which gives you a touch attack. Hence, it doesn't give you a free touch attack to deliver in the round you cast it, and it isn't a held charge so casting another spell doesn't discharge it, but it also cannot be delivered via spellstrike.
I never said it would give a free touch attack. I said you should be able to channel it the same way you are channeling Frostbite/Chill Touch on their 2nd, 3rd, ... round.
Why should you be able to hit with a weapon and channel Frostbite on the second round, but not do the same with Elemental Touch?No gray zone at all; you can cast Elemental Touch first, followed by Frostbite or Chill Touch and your touch attack will deliver both.
Except the rules for holding charges say otherwise.
Now if you are not holding charges any more then you cannot channel remaining attacks through weapons...
or you can channel any magus spell touch attacks through your weapon and then you can do so with Elemental Touch.
Elemental Touch says in the TEXT that it's multiple melee touch attacks. Since text > table: that would mean the text is right and that spell indeed qualifies for Spellstrike.
If you look at the mechanics of Elemental Touch and compare them to Frostbite you'll see they are the same. They are just worded differently. They are worded in a way that devs told us they find easier/ more simple (ie the "new way"?), but of course old habits die hard.
You don't take 10 attacks in one round. You take 4-5 attacks per round over multiple rounds.
I don't believe so; this is why I posted this:
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
That rule only applies to friendly touch spells. Frostbite and Chill Touch do not have to be taken in one round.
Can you please show me a rule reference? Because this
This should be obvious in that if they did the spells would be nonfunctional.
isn't one.
Even if we say that you could touch 6 targets as your free touch attempt, the spell caps at 10 touches... again, no point to do so if you can only use 6 touches and then the spell is gone.
This is what baffled me most.
Hmm... I guess you're right. I always thought it was bad spell design to have an instantaneous spell that can be delivered multiple times. My thoughts were, nice spell for a marilith, but who else could use it? Your interpretation sounds right. Still, it's an interpretation... I'll try and use it with my magus, let's see what my GM has to say. (Funny that I have it in my spellbook...)
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You don't take 10 attacks in one round. You take 4-5 attacks per round over multiple rounds.I don't believe so; this is why I posted this:
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.That rule only applies to friendly touch spells. Frostbite and Chill Touch do not have to be taken in one round.Can you please show me a rule reference? Because this
This should be obvious in that if they did the spells would be nonfunctional.isn't one.
You don't have to discharge your touch spell on the free attack to qualify for spellstrike. You can discharge the held charges from any spell you have cast using spellstrike on any subsequent round using any weapon.
The FAQ explaining the Magus' ability to do so has been linked repeatedly. You just need to read and understand it.
You don't have to discharge your touch spell on the free attack to qualify for spellstrike. You can discharge the held charges from any spell you have cast using spellstrike on any subsequent round using any weapon.
The FAQ explaining the Magus' ability to do so has been linked repeatedly. You just need to read and understand it.
I'm quite aware of it. In fact, I read and even understood it. The FAQ says
(...) and still be holding the charge in his hand (...)
"charge", not "charges". Because this
You don't have to discharge your touch spell on the free attack to qualify for spellstrike.
has been true before the existence of the magus or the spellstrike ability. Any spellcaster could hold the charge of a spell for an indefinite time.
So it still doesn't explain away this rule:
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
Kazaan's explanation was logical, therefore I concur with it, even though there is no reference in the rules. But if my GM vetoes it, I can't quote any rules to convince him otherwise.
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I'm quite aware of it. In fact, I read and even understood it. The FAQ says
(...) and still be holding the charge in his hand (...)"charge", not "charges".
The singular is because you can only deliver a single charge of a given spell per successful attack. It in no way places a limit on the number of charges held, or on the magi's ability to deliver those charges with subsequent attacks.
Unless you can show me RAW where spellstrike reduces the number of charges granted by spells to 1.....
A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell.
Or unless you can explain how the above sequence of events is possible without holding charges for use on subsequent rounds.
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Just a note when comparing Damage output between a single charge spell such as Shocking Grasp, and a multi charge spell such as Frost Bite you have to take in to consideration the time period and accuracy of delivery.
Thus your 10th level Frost Bite give's you 10 charges, which when taking in account chance of missing , will probably be delivered over 4+ rounds.
In that same time you can deliver 4+ Shocking Grasps.
That makes it quite clear then that in most situations on a damage per roud and a damage per combat level Shocking Grasp way outperforms Frost Grp.
Frost Grip has other advantages but they are much more inclined to vary situationally.
Also keep in mind that multiple low level energy damage dealt per hit is more vunerable to moderate Energy Resistance than massive damage in 1 hit.
Thread Necromancy is typically frowned upon...
Using Raise Dead on this thread, since it already has some relevant information on Frostbite.
Do you think Frostbite is broken?
- Level 1
- 1d6 +1/level damage, no cap.
- nonlethal cold type (seems to me it won't do any damage to someone immune to nonletal or cold damage).
- Indefinite duration (until you sleep, most likely).
- Fatigued condition.
- no save for the Fatigued condition.
- # charges = caster level, which makes it possible to be delivered several times in a round.
- Range of Touch and acts like a buff, which leaves room for interpretation that it can be cast on your allies.
I am disconsidering the notion that this is not a "Holding a charge" spell until all the charges have been used because that's plain stupid.
A friend of ours wants to use the spell but we think it's too much. We are trying to fix it by:
- Cap the damage to a max of 1d6 +5 at caster level 5.
- Making it usable/deliverable only once per round.
He's a Hunter(Ranger), not a Magi, so we don't care about spellstrike.
Do you also think the spell is broken?
Yes/No? Why?
How would you fix it?
This spell is fine. There is nothing that needs to be changed.
It's a nice way for a magus to use spellstrike without using spellcombat.
It seems to work like a buff spell, like haste. The Target doesn't say "personal" or "you", so it seems you can cast it on your allies and they'll be the ones attacking the enemies.
The hunter in question can cast the spell on his pet companion and the pet can do like 5 natural attacks per round. At higher levels, like 10, 15 and 20, it seems like alot of damage for a 1st level spell.
And, in the hands of someone who knows what he's doing, like 20th level monk with a ring of spell storing or a spell storing bracers, he would be able to do a total of around 10d6+200 damage just from this 1st level spell in a round (to a maximum of 20d6+400 if he can manage to do 20 attacks in a round, but then again who would survive 20 attacks anyway)
I see the spell as a bit over the top, opening precedent to more powerfull 1st level spells. Best to regulate this thing and make it just as strong the other 1st level spells are.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It seems to work like a buff spell, like haste. The Target doesn't say "personal" or "you", so it seems you can cast it on your allies and they'll be the ones attacking the enemies.
The target is the person who takes the damage. The caster is the one who can make the attacks. That's how touch spells work. There's a whole section in the rules on touch spells in combat, and it looks like you've got some homework to do. Once you've digested all the relevant rules (like the ability to accidentally blow a charge if he grabs something, the fact that he can't bestow it to allies, and the fact that if he ever casts any other spell he loses all remaining charges), you'll see that it's not broken at all.
Anecdotal evidence but; I tried out a dex bladebound magus that used Frostbite a LOT and it was pretty handy. For the most part I was fishing for crits and attacking as often as possible so unlike with Shocking Grasp I had multiple chances per casting to swing with a crit even if what was being doubled was a lower number. Against many smaller targets this meant that I was not wasting too much damage by overkilling something and since I was attacking a lot per round the extra damage went a long way when attacking one big enemy. Haste went a long way for this. Rime spell was amazing with it, especially with multiple targets and other melee strikers in the party ready to mop up drastically weakened enemies. I just had to hit a guy once before moving on because that guy is nerfed and easy pickings.
the downside was that sometimes enemies died out before I ran out of charges, some enemies were not affected by cold or non-lethal damage, and some enemies self-heal eliminating a good chunk of damage.
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As a bloodrager 6/monk 2, Frostbite is nice but not OP. It adds some extra damage to my UAS but it takes a round to pre-buff, has to be the last spell I cast, and doesn't work against all foes (like the ghoul wolves we fought last session). Fatigued is nice but not great - it works best if you're fighting a small number of moderately challenging foes since mooks will die too fast for the debuff to matter much, and a BBEG can only be debuffed once. It's great with Rime Spell but that takes some investment and it still doesn't work against foes immune (or highly resistant) to nonlethal or cold damage.
And, in the hands of someone who knows what he's doing, like 20th level monk with a ring of spell storing or a spell storing bracers, he would be able to do a total of around 10d6+200 damage just from this 1st level spell in a round (to a maximum of 20d6+400 if he can manage to do 20 attacks in a round, but then again who would survive 20 attacks anyway)
First, I think the monk caps out at 9 attacks with haste and spending a ki point. Second, it's very unlikely the monk would hit with all those attacks so your actual damage per round from frostbite would likely be 4d6+80 to 6d6+120 for 4-6 hits. Third, the ring won't work.
A ring of spell storing contains up to 5 levels of spells (either divine or arcane, or even a mix of both spell types) that the wearer can cast. Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell.
So it will give you one frostbite touch for d6+1 damage.
Bracers or AoMF of Spell Storing might work, but I'm a little unclear on how multiple touches would interact with the fact that you're only allowed to cast the spell on the person who just hit you / who you just hit. In any case, if you're worried about that, it might be easier to houserule a limitation on these items rather than ban Frostbite.
The target is the person who takes the damage. The caster is the one who can make the attacks. That's how touch spells work.
Frostbite's description is much like Chill Touch, and the Dev's themselves have admited the description is weird, and if you can't see that then you got some homework to do as well.
Most offensive touch spells are instantaneous, their "power" doesn't linger on the casters after they are discharged, but Frostbit and Chill Touch do, this makes them work much like Buff touch spells, like Heroism or Stoneskin, where the "power/aura" of the spell lingers on the creature for the duration of the spell or until discharged (I thought Haste was a touch spell too).
Well, this is just a discussion of how the spell's description doesn't fit the regular pattern most spells do and could be better written to make clearer sense, but since it's almost certain that the spell is personal (for reasons unknown to me) I will not argue otherwise.
I confess I did not realize you would lose a charged spell if you cast any other spell, I thought you'd only lose it if you casted a new/different charged spell. This does pose a real problem.
Discharging by touching anything is not a problem, just shove your hand in a bag of holding or portable whole and strap it to your shoulder, you may even start a new fashion trend.
I think the monk caps out at 9 attacks with haste and spending a ki point.
I was considering possible AoO Attack combos.
I know this kind os spell can only be exploited in isolated cases, but when a spell is more powerfull than the rest we end up seeing these isolated cases Alot.
Even with the "Holding a Charge" limitations, the spell still seems considerably stronger than your average MM, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp.
The drawback that alot of monsters are immune to it isn't so bad, since it's just a 1st level spell, in these situtaions you would simply not cast it. The problem I see is that, against the foes that it is effective, it is a very big buff for just a 1st level spell.
Part of me would love to abuse of it, but the other part wants to polish it to make it better fit it's level.
I feel like allowing casters to hold one charge per hand and still cast other spells while holding a charge, like a Druid with two burning hands from Produce Flame casting a Flame Strike, but then I would have to do that AND nerf the spell.
I guess it's greatest drawback at higher levels is that there'll probably be better spells you can use instead. Just imagine, a 9th level Frostbitelike spell...
Some points to consider:
1) Rimed Frostbite imparts entangled and fatigued for -4 Dex and -2 Dex, respectively. Most opponents use armor that allows max Dex defense. Therefore getting a total penalty of -6 Dec equates to a +3 to hit for everyone.
Shocking Grasp has +3 to hit for the spell only.
Yes, each only applies to some opponents, but they are essentially equivalent.
Frostbite wins on the iteratives, since you are going against a debuffed AC once you land a single hit, and you have multiple attacks per round, and several rounds from one spell. It also wins because their attacks are at -1 (-3 Rimed).
2) Frostbite is an instantaneous spell. It is applied to the creature touched. That creature then gains the 1/CL touch attack. You don't want to use it as an attack spell since you would be enhancing their natural attacks.
3) Once you have made the spell's touch, there is no spell to be held. Apply the spell to yourself, and then cast Shocking Grasp for an natural [or unarmed] attack that does cold and electrical damage.
4) You can't discharge an attack by accident, since it is not a held charge.
/cevah
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Some points to consider:
1) Rimed Frostbite imparts entangled and fatigued for -4 Dex and -2 Dex, respectively. Most opponents use armor that allows max Dex defense. Therefore getting a total penalty of -6 Dec equates to a +3 to hit for everyone.
Shocking Grasp has +3 to hit for the spell only.
Yes, each only applies to some opponents, but they are essentially equivalent.
Frostbite wins on the iteratives, since you are going against a debuffed AC once you land a single hit, and you have multiple attacks per round, and several rounds from one spell. It also wins because their attacks are at -1 (-3 Rimed).2) Frostbite is an instantaneous spell. It is applied to the creature touched. That creature then gains the 1/CL touch attack. You don't want to use it as an attack spell since you would be enhancing their natural attacks.
3) Once you have made the spell's touch, there is no spell to be held. Apply the spell to yourself, and then cast Shocking Grasp for an natural [or unarmed] attack that does cold and electrical damage.
4) You can't discharge an attack by accident, since it is not a held charge.
/cevah
While the initial wording is a bit unclear, Cevah, your intrepetation is incorrect. "Your target becomes fatigued", do you mean that, to use frostbite, you have to touch yourself, become fatigued, and then be able to deal 1d6 damage to opponets, and you stay fatigued until they are healed of the non-lethal damage?
I think not. The view is extremist, and outside the obvious intent of the spell.
Say you target yourself. You now gain a touch attack that fatigues. What you then touch attack gets the fatigue.
The wording is reasonably clear. The spell is not a "Personal" spell, so the use of the words "Your melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of nonlethal cold damage + 1 point per level, and the target is fatigued." refers to the creature targeted by the spell gaining the attack form.
A wimpy wizard could target his stealthy rogue friend to allow his friend to make the touch attacks in melee.
EDIT: The spell does not cause fatigue. It buffs the target by giving them a debuffing attack.
/cevah
Nope. It's text is "The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal." and not "The targeted creatures can make one other move and act more quickly than normal."
/cevah
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Your successful melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 5d6). When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or is carrying a metal weapon or is made of metal).
Your melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of nonlethal cold damage + 1 point per level, and the target is fatigued.[/b] The fatigued condition ends when the target recovers from the nonlethal damage. This spell cannot make a creature exhausted even if it is already fatigued. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
Upon completing the casting of this spell, elemental energy infuses your hands.
Choose an energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You gain a melee touch attack causing 1d6 points of damage of that energy type, along with a special effect described below. You also deal energy damage and the related special effect when you attack with your hands using an unarmed strike, a single claw, or a single slam attack. This bonus damage can never apply to multiple weapons.
Frostbite's wording is more similar to shocking grasp than to elemental touch, the latter being a spell that clearly acts as a buff granting a touch attack rather than a touch spell.
The wording is reasonably clear. The spell is not a "Personal" spell, so the use of the words "Your melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of nonlethal cold damage + 1 point per level, and the target is fatigued." refers to the creature targeted by the spell gaining the attack form.
A wimpy wizard could target his stealthy rogue friend to allow his friend to make the touch attacks in melee.
EDIT: The spell does not cause fatigue. It buffs the target by giving them a debuffing attack.
Frostbite quite clearly says "the target is fatigued" and Target: creature touched. If the spell works by touching an ally to grant them a touch attack, then the ally is the target. The ally is fatigued.
Your melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of nonlethal cold damage + 1 point per level, and the target is fatigued. The fatigued condition ends when the target recovers from the nonlethal damage. This spell cannot make a creature exhausted even if it is already fatigued. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
"Your melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of nonlethal cold damage + 1 point per level, and the target is fatigued."
Simplified:"Your attack deals damage and the target is fatigued."
which I read as:
"Your attack deals damage and the target [of the attack] is fatigued."
Consider, the Frostbite spell states: "Target: Creature" and not "Target: Creature Touched".
If you only can target a single creature, then how can you affect multiple creatures with fatigue as the spell implies? If only you get the special touch attack, why is the range not Personal?
If the target of the spell gets fatigued, then you would be fatiguing the same creature even thou you damage multiple creatures.
On second thought, I agree the wording is not the best, especially when comparing to Shocking Grasp.
/cevah
The spell is discharged upon touching the target. It is of instantaneous duration, and cannot be discharged a second time. Therefore, to affect multiple targets, it must be a buff and cannot be a direct effect.
Likewise, it is not a personal spell, but touch range. Since it can be applied to you or to another, why are they using the words "your melee touch...."? If you apply the spell to another, how does it affect you? You are not receiving the spell's magic. The spell target is. The special touch is clearly magical in origin, so why do you receive it no matter who you cast the spell upon? I think my reading makes more sense.
/cevah
Looking in the spell index, I only could find two spells that had a duration containing "inst", a target that was non-blank, a description containing "attack", and a range of touch. That left me with: Allfood, Animate Dead, Arcana Theft, Banish Seeming, Bleed For Your Master, Burst Bonds, Cast Out, Chill Touch, Corrosive Touch, Die For Your Master, Force Punch, Forceful Strike, Frigid Touch, Frostbite, Ki Arrow, Poison, Reincarnate, Shocking Grasp, Slay Living, Snow Shape, Stricken Heart, Touch Of Combustion, Touch of Slime, and Vampiric Touch. Reading of descriptions in details leaves only two:
Chill Touch
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude partial or Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds + 1 round per caster level.
Frostbite
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Targets creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
Your melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of nonlethal cold damage + 1 point per level, and the target is fatigued. The fatigued condition ends when the target recovers from the nonlethal damage. This spell cannot make a creature exhausted even if it is already fatigued. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
Note the difference in the Targets line. The Frostbite spell has a single target but can damage several. Chill Touch can effect multiple targets.
The wording is not consistent, and can be read in more than one way.
/cevah
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Likewise, it is not a personal spell, but touch range. Since it can be applied to you or to another, why are they using the words "your melee touch...."? If you apply the spell to another, how does it affect you? You are not receiving the spell's magic. The spell target is. The special touch is clearly magical in origin, so why do you receive it no matter who you cast the spell upon?
This could also be said about Shocking Grasp. Do you think that the way that spell works is in doubt?
The spell is discharged upon touching the target. It is of instantaneous duration, and cannot be discharged a second time. Therefore, to affect multiple targets, it must be a buff and cannot be a direct effect.
Why do you draw this conclusion, as opposed to concluding that you can continue to hold and discharge spell charges as long as charges remain?
PRD:Duration:
Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.
The problem is because the spell is listed as range touch, but everyone assumes it is personal. It lists a single target, but affects multiple creatures. The text contradicts itself. Which is it? I am showing that it has a valid read as a buff spell.
Just made a post in the Rules forum for FAQing:
Is Frostbite a buff spell you can give to another to attack with, or is it a personal spell?
What say we discuss the spell over there?
/cevah