That does not mean the Bestiary isn't required to use rules in the CRB.Just because I can avoid those rules while playing a character, does not mean the rules I am avoiding are in the Bestiary.
Familiars, summons, wildshape, 9 other spells, half of the handle animal rules, owning a mule or a horse, using ride as a fighter
The list goes on and on. None of those rules are in the Bestiary, but I would still need the Bestiary to use those rules.
True but if you have limits in obtaining books / PDF's you have options to work around this limitation.
That doesn't make the limitation less off putting. It's not like the normal additionaly rules limitation (which is actually a boon, since it prevents overly opt chars using 30 different books, unless the player is REALLY serious about pathfinder). The Bestiary doesn't have rules you need it for, unlike the other 99% of additional rules material. If you want to use a rule, you need to own the book. If you want to use all the rules in the CRB, you need to own a Bestiary.
I'm confused now. You were arguing early in the thread about how unfair it was that you had to buy another book. Now you're saying that everyone should have the book, meaning you're forcing everyone to buy it, including the ones who don't want to use the spells, class features, and whatever else you might need the bestiary for. If you buy a mule, you don't need the bestiary unless you ride it into battle - if it's a pack animal and its stats aren't necessary, then you don't need the book that has them.
Make no mistake: "The Bestiary is part of the Core Assumption" does not mean "You don't have to own it to use it."
"The Bestiary is part of the Core Assumption" means "If you play PFS, you must purchase the Bestiary."
[[edit: I may be mistaken about your original stance. I thought you had argued that it shouldn't be necessary to own the book, but on a quick review after the fact, it seems you have only ever been asking for clarification as to whether it was needed or not. If I've misrepresented your original argument, I apologize.]]
Bold part is correct.
Someone recently ask, if requiring the Bestiary to use rules in CRB is off putting to new players.
I then stated that it is off putting and am going into why.
Finding out that I cannot use all of the book I bought for $60 without buying another book, is off putting. More so than normal, considering that the book in question is the CRB.
EDIT: Side note. How does the metric, Imperial unit thing work in Canada? Do people like playing with archaic fantasy units of measurement or are they wondering why everything isn't in metrics?
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If you want to use all the rules in the CRB, you need to own a Bestiary.
So... don't use all the rules in the CRB; use only the ones which don't require a Bestiary. It's simple.
The CRB is the CORE rule book, not the "Universal" or "Comprehensive" rule book. It's the basics you need to play. Summoned monsters and familiars are hardly "basics"; the CRB offers spells which can bring forth things beyond the CRB, things which require the Bestiary.
You seem to be missing the Big Obvious here, which is just don't play someone who summons monsters if you don't have a Bestiary!
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Absolutely not. It IS the PLAYER'S responsibility to make sure his character is ready for play.
I don't understand how this thread has gotten so damned long. LazarX, and about 6 others have posted this same basic idea. It's not too hard to understand. If you cast a spell, you need to know what it does and how it affects the game. If you aren't prepared for that, then do something else.
PFS happens in a 4-5 hour time slot and you have often have to cram 5+ hours of worth of gaming into that slot of time (7+ if you are running one of my scenarios). It really doesn't matter who's responsibility it is, if you aren't ready to play, your lack of preparation is cutting into game time and you are screwing the rest of the people at the table out of valuable play time.
If time is tight and a person doesn't understand what a spell or class ability does, or they don't have the sources for the creature they are summoning, I just put them into delay. The GM is responsible for making sure 6 people and himself is having a good time. If one player can't keep their stuff together, it's not worth screwing over the rest of the table babying them.
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Someone recently ask, if requiring the Bestiary to use rules in CRB is off putting to new players.
I then stated that it is off putting and am going into why.
Finding out that I cannot use all of the book I bought for $60 without buying another book, is off putting. More so than normal, considering that the book in question is the CRB.
Fair enough. But what you're now proposing, by asking that the Bestiary be made part of the Core Assumption, is that no one be allowed to use ANY of the book they bought for $60 without buying another book. Are you arguing that that's LESS off-putting?
To your edit/aside: Canada is a kind of a weird corner case on the whole metric/imperial measurement thing. We measure distances in kilometres and speeds in kph, and all our groceries are labelled in grams, litres, and millilitres. But, our construction materials (lumber and drywall) and architectural plans are measured in inches and feet, and we refer to height the same way and personal weight in pounds. In Canada, at least, no one thinks it tremendously weird to refer to a five-foot-step. It may be different in Europe, but I'll let a Euro VO weigh in on that one. :)
Venture-Agent, Virginia—Hampton Roads
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That doesn't make the limitation less off putting. It's not like the normal additionaly rules limitation (which is actually a boon, since it prevents overly opt chars using 30 different books, unless the player is REALLY serious about pathfinder). The Bestiary doesn't have rules you need it for, unlike the other 99% of additional rules material. If you want to use a rule, you need to own the book. If you want to use all the rules in the CRB, you need to own a Bestiary.
True but in 3.0 and 3.5 you needed the Monster Manuals to reference the summon monsters. I don't have my 2nd and 1st editions books out of storage but I think this applies to those as well (Not 100% sure on that one)
The CRB is better as in the past 3.0/3.5 days you need the DMG for magic items as the player handbook didn't contain this.
Paizo with the creation of Pathfinder moved this element into the CRB. So why at this point are we arguing?
If you want to use all the rules in the CRB, you need to own a Bestiary.
So... don't use all the rules in the CRB; use only the ones which don't require a Bestiary. It's simple.
The CRB is the CORE rule book, not the "Universal" or "Comprehensive" rule book. It's the basics you need to play. Summoned monsters and familiars are hardly "basics"; the CRB offers spells which can bring forth things beyond the CRB, things which require the Bestiary.
You seem to be missing the Big Obvious here, which is just don't play someone who summons monsters if you don't have a Bestiary!
Or buy a mule...
Whole class features are unusable and one class cannot use half of their class features.
Every class is limited by this restriction.
Saying I don't own parts of CRB without owning the Bestiary may very well be rules correct, but that doesn't make it less off putting or less ridiculous seeming to my friends.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Marthkus, I have sad news for you. Even with the Bestiary, there are parts to the Core Rulebook you can't use.
Crafting. Custom-designed magic items. Intelligent and cursed items (unless you have particular Chronicles)
A feat: Leadership.
Three spells: awaken, reincarnate, permanency.
A couple of prestige classes: Anti-paladin and Assassin.
Poison (unless you find it on Chronicle sheets)
If "use everything in the $60 book / $10 PDF" was an important goal for you, I'm afraid you're bound for disappointment.
But, hey! The same set of rules for D&D 3.5 (base books) would have run you about $100. So buying two PDFs for $20 seems more reasonable.
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I think the problem is that people are saying that you cannot print those out and give them to players to use except at your own table. And paizo is very worked up right now about people having the exact format they specify.It's a simple concept. If you bring the resource to the table, you bring the rules needed to run it. GMs bring the resources for the mod. Players bring resources for the PCs.
In LG, I used to bring printouts of SNA and SM I and II, augmented and not, along with a link to a file with all the stats for the spells. I'd hand 'em out to new players and give them the link for future use.
I generally don't get worked up about who has the source at a table or if it meets an exact format. I try to provide those things for my PCs and keep 'em simple to accommodate my willingness to tote stuff. I honor those who do enforce those rules and don't create conflict when enforcing them. If I'm unprepared, I use other resources.
I get the print thing, which is why I mentioned what I did in LG, not making a recommentadion for PFS.
That said, Paizo's desire on pressing the issue is all fine and good, but decisions are made at the table.
Marthkus, I have sad news for you. Even with the Bestiary, there are parts to the Core Rulebook you can't use.
Crafting. Custom-designed magic items. Intelligent and cursed items (unless you have particular Chronicles)
A feat: Leadership.
Three spells: awaken, reincarnate, permanency.
A couple of prestige classes: Anti-paladin and Assassin.
Poison (unless you find it on Chronicle sheets)If "use everything in the $60 book / $10 PDF" was an important goal for you, I'm afraid you're bound for disappointment.
But, hey! The same set of rules for D&D 3.5 (base books) would have run you about $100. So buying two PDFs for $20 seems more reasonable.
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...Let me rephrase. I can't use all the legal rules in the CRB without owning Bestiary 1.
ASIDE: I've already spent $139 on books + $5 for a PDF. (CRB, Ultimate Campaign, Mythic Adventures, and a PDF of Mythic Adventures that I bought at GenCon). I didn't buy these for PFS, but don't you assume for a moment that Paizo isn't getting money from me. Spending $40-60 for a bestiary just so I can use my CRB is annoying. You still need physical print outs of your rules at some tables regardless of legal ownership of PDF, so you might as well just buy a book and save yourself some printer ink.
Honestly, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone complain about needing the Bestiary.
I just think it's a non-issue (thread length notwithstanding!)
Might be because the people who have an issue with it are not the same people who play PFS.
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This really is not about summoning or polymorph, but about the requirements of Additional Resources for corner cases like these.
Loosening those requirements, and you'd get Table Variation come up - if you don't have the book, how do you deal with casting the spell?
You don't go using other people's books at the table when they need them without their permission and OK - that's just not kosher. If they don't mind, then sure.
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Venture-Agent, Virginia—Hampton Roads
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...
...Let me rephrase. I can't use all the legal rules in the CRB without owning Bestiary 1.
ASIDE: I've already spent $139 on books + $5 for a PDF. (CRB, Ultimate Campaign, Mythic Adventures, and a PDF of Mythic Adventures that I bought at GenCon). I didn't buy these for PFS, but don't you assume for a moment that Paizo isn't getting money from me. Spending $40-60 for a bestiary just so I can use my CRB is annoying. You still need physical print outs of your rules at some tables regardless of legal ownership of PDF, so you might as well just buy a book and save yourself some printer ink.
SO you spent 139+ $$$ without the research into the product for what a PFS PC will need?
Paizo's PRD is a good website to reference for this see here-> PF PRD
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...Let me rephrase. I can't use all the legal rules in the CRB without owning Bestiary 1.
ASIDE: I've already spent $139 on books + $5 for a PDF. (CRB, Ultimate Campaign, Mythic Adventures, and a PDF of Mythic Adventures that I bought at GenCon). I didn't buy these for PFS, but don't you assume for a moment that Paizo isn't getting money from me. Spending $40-60 for a bestiary just so I can use my CRB is annoying. You still need physical print outs of your rules at some tables regardless of legal ownership of PDF, so you might as well just buy a book and save yourself some printer ink.
SO you spent 139+ $$$ without the research into the product for what a PFS PC will need?
Paizo's PRD is a good website to reference for this see here-> PF PRD
I didn't buy the books for PFS. Since I have the books, I might as well find out how much of the CRB is legal for me to use. PFS is an option open to me now, but it in no way inspired me to purchase a book.
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Might be because the people who have an issue with it are not the same people who play PFS.Honestly, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone complain about needing the Bestiary.
I just think it's a non-issue (thread length notwithstanding!)
No one is twisting your friends arems to play PFS. If you find the need to own the books SO offputting, Paizo offers many Adventure Paths that make for a good home game, in which you wouldnt have to follow PFS rules to play in them.
That said, just in case you havent yet realized but this section of the boards is for the PFS organized play campaign. There are certain rules in this campaign. Coming onto the boards and being argumentative about how people play a game you seemingly dont play (which I can tell by the fact that you have no registered characters just by looking at your profile) isnt going to get anyone to change their mind on anything or get the campaign leadership to change the rule.
Edit: My point is that arguing the point just because you dont like, aside from the fact that it has been explained to you repeatedly that you are wrong in this case, is going to get you nowhere.
@Seth
Some have ask why requiring the Bestiary to use legal rules is off putting in a different way than the requirement of owning other additional rule books.
I can think of no other book required to use the all the legal rules in the CRB. I can think of no other book that contains no rules of it's own, but you need it because it is referenced by rules in other sources.
I have remained interested in the idea of PFS, but it does little to convince me to buy books. Pathfinder as a whole gets me to buy books. PFS may one day in the future be a reason to use those books. Hence, my interest.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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You can't own a mule without the bestiary.
Can't train animals without owning a bestiary.
Really ever class is limited in the CRB and is unable to use certain rules stated in the CRB without owning a bestiary. Might want to include that in the core assumptions and require ownership.
I have a bunch of characters, only two of which I have played. A level 6 cleric and a level 1 paladin. Guess how many times either of these characters has needed a Bestiary. ZERO.
Mark
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Marthkus, you keep harping, over and over again, that the Bestiary doesn't include any rules of its own. I have no idea what you're talking about. The appendices are jam-packed with rules. Every single page has all the rules you need to run a monster. (All those stat blocks? Those are rules, dude.)
Here's a suggestion: if you don't want to use the Bestiary, play a fighter.
At this point, we've swung from the PRD, to the viability of druids, to how can you possibly play a wizard without access to a familiar, to whether you can play all the "legal parts" of the Core rulebook (you can; if you can't play something, it's not legal) and now whether the Bestiary has rules.
You have been told how the campaign works, repeatedly. You have asserted that you just want to know how things work, that you're certainly not here for just an argument. You have determined that Paizo asking you to buy the rules you use as a player is "off-putting". Cool; PFS isn't for everyone.
@Chris
A Fighter would probably want to avoid putting ranks into handle animal and ride if they do not own a Bestiary.
It's annoying to have to buy another book to use rules printed in a different book.
It's annoying that class features in the CRB are unusable without buying another book.
It's annoying that certain skills in the CRB lose more than half their function unless you buy another book.
Yes PFS isn't for everyone. Certainly none of my friends have an interest in it. Even the most accepting of my friends to what he calls a WOW like business model for buying expansions, is annoyed that class features in the CRB cannot be used without paying extra.
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@Chris
A Fighter would probably want to avoid putting ranks into handle animal and ride if they do not own a Bestiary.
It's annoying to have to buy another book to use rules printed in a different book.
It's annoying that class features in the CRB are unusable without buying another book.
It's annoying that certain skills in the CRB lose more than half their function unless you buy another book.
Yes PFS isn't for everyone. Certainly none of my friends have an interest in it. Even the most accepting of my friends to what he calls a WOW like business model for buying expansions, is annoyed that class features in the CRB cannot be used without paying extra.
*sigh* Ride and Handle Animal do not require the bestiary. Please stop making a mountain out of something that isn't that big of a deal.
It is what it is... this is how PFS works, I would encourage you to download and read over the guide to organized play, and to look at information before you post. You've been coming up with a lot of fanciful ideas that just aren't true and are mis-understand the simple things.
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Since there is confusion...
****Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action
No where in the description of the skill does it state that you need to access the stat block for the animal you are wanting to handle. If this is an animal companion then you'd actually already have the character sheet.
***** Ride: You are skilled at riding mounts, usually a horse, but possibly something more exotic, like a griffon or pegasus. If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks.
Check: Typical riding actions don't require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem. The following tasks do require checks.
Task Ride DC
Guide with knees 5
Stay in saddle 5
Fight with a combat-trained mount 10
Cover 15
Soft fall 15
Leap 15
Spur mount 15
Control mount in battle 20
Fast mount or dismount 20
No where in the description of this spell does it say that you need to access the stat block of the animal you are trying to ride.
Yes other books have additional class features, however, the classes in the CRB were meant to be usable out of the CRB ... though with additional books you can essentially unlock additional class features, but it is not a requirement for the class itself. The original issue in the thread was with the bestiary and the summon monster spell.. that has been covered extensively that you do need to have that in order to summon the monsters so lets not go back down that path.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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At this point, it appears that some posters are just baiting others. They are changing the subject when their arguments are refuted, they refuse to accept what has not only been pointed out to them but also stuff supported by PFS documents.
If you want to play a summoner and not need the bestiary, then don't play PFS. If you want to play PFS, pay $10 for the pdf of the bestiary and move on. Period. The choice is yours.
It's clear that some are going to argue just to do so. They can feel free to do so without my participation any further.
At this point, it appears that some posters are just baiting others. They are changing the subject when their arguments are refuted, they refuse to accept what has not only been pointed out to them but also stuff supported by PFS documents.
If you want to play a summoner and not need the bestiary, then don't play PFS. If you want to play PFS, pay $10 for the pdf of the bestiary and move on. Period. The choice is yours.
It's clear that some are going to argue just to do so. They can feel free to do so without my participation any further.
Is there still anyone arguing the need to own a bestiary? That has been well established.
Now I'm just explaining how requiring the bestiary to use rules in the CRB is not the same thing as requiring ultimate magic to play a magus, when it comes to new players looking at PFS.
Since there is confusion...
****Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action
No where in the description of the skill does it state that you need to access the stat block for the animal you are wanting to handle. If this is an animal companion then you'd actually already have the character sheet.
***** Ride: You are skilled at riding mounts, usually a horse, but possibly something more exotic, like a griffon or pegasus. If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks.
Check: Typical riding actions don't require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem. The following tasks do require checks.
Task Ride DC
Guide with knees 5
Stay in saddle 5
Fight with a combat-trained mount 10
Cover 15
Soft fall 15
Leap 15
Spur mount 15
Control mount in battle 20
Fast mount or dismount 20No where in the description of this spell does it say that you need to access the stat block of the animal you are trying to ride.
Yes other books have additional class features, however, the classes in the CRB were meant to be usable out of the CRB ... though with additional books you can essentially unlock additional class features, but it is not a requirement for the class itself. The original issue in the thread was with the bestiary and the summon monster spell.. that has been covered extensively that you do need to have that in order to summon the monsters so lets not go back down that path.
Can't buy an animal to train or an animal to ride without owning the bestiary.
Grabbing these skills would only be useful in situations where the scenario has non-hostile animals in it.
That removes a good portion of the uses for these skills.
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Since there is confusion...
****Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action
No where in the description of the skill does it state that you need to access the stat block for the animal you are wanting to handle. If this is an animal companion then you'd actually already have the character sheet.
***** Ride: You are skilled at riding mounts, usually a horse, but possibly something more exotic, like a griffon or pegasus. If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks.
Check: Typical riding actions don't require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem. The following tasks do require checks.
Task Ride DC
Guide with knees 5
Stay in saddle 5
Fight with a combat-trained mount 10
Cover 15
Soft fall 15
Leap 15
Spur mount 15
Control mount in battle 20
Fast mount or dismount 20No where in the description of this spell does it say that you need to access the stat block of the animal you are trying to ride.
Yes other books have additional class features, however, the classes in the CRB were meant to be usable out of the CRB ... though with additional books you can essentially unlock additional class features, but it is not a requirement for the class itself. The original issue in the thread was with the bestiary and the summon monster spell.. that has been covered extensively that you do need to have that in order to summon the monsters so lets not go back down that path.
Can't buy an animal to train or an animal to ride without owning the bestiary.
Grabbing these skills would only be useful in situations where the scenario has non-hostile animals in it.
That removes a good portion of the uses for...
In select circumstances you're right that is true. But for the overall that is incorrect.
Besides, I have gone through 12 characters without feeling the need to buy an animal to train, and when I've had to "ride" it's been in boxed text and I haven't had to worry about it.
So your arguing corner cases that aren't going to come up very often if at all..
Next...
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This thread... All the energy spent arguing against the bestiary requirement could have been used to make $10 and buy the pdf. It's an additional character option. Just buy the damn book. You are obviously passionate enough about the game to warrant the purchase. I doubt you will have buyer's remorse.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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*sigh* Ride and Handle Animal do not require the bestiary. Please stop making a mountain out of something that isn't that big of a deal.
Really?? You can't own a horse in PFS or any other mount unless it is an animal companion unless you have the Bestiary. So what are you planning to use Ride on?
This thread... All the energy spent arguing against the bestiary requirement could have been used to make $10 and buy the pdf. It's an additional character option. Just buy the damn book. You are obviously passionate enough about the game to warrant the purchase. I doubt you will have buyer's remorse.
$10 to buy PDF
X amount of money to print off required pages.
Time spent finding and printing required pages.
That or buy the book. Which there is no desire in me to buy a book for PFS. When/if I get a bestiary, PFS will not be a reason for it.
As said by someone else, "PFS isn't for everyone". When someone tells you something is uniquely off putting saying "your opinion is wrong, no one feels that way" may not be the best way to attract potential players. Peace.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Why I care:
I am finding this focus on every player owning so many books is keeping the people I normally play with from playing PFS, which means (since I have limited time to game) that I have to chose between playing with them and playing PFS. Normally, when taking on a new system, we would have different people pick up different books and share the price around. When we run home games, we generally use the existing systems we have.
So, the way I see it, PFS's principles aren't earning more money from the segment of market I represent, it just creates resentment and drives away people who would otherwise buy things like minis and the non-prd books.
But that part I'm willing to accept. I think they are unwise to make that choice, but I think it is their choice to make.
But I also think that in doing this, they have so constrained the players from using a lot of basic concepts, and the fact that every time I turn around I find that to use this thing or that thing in a book I already bought, I have to turn around and buy another book is really making me question why I'm bothering with this game.
But that part I'm willing to accept. I think they are unwise to make that choice, but I think it is their choice to make.
But I also think that in doing this, they have so constrained the players from using a lot of basic concepts, and the fact that every time I turn around I find that to use this thing or that thing in a book I already bought, I have to turn around and buy another book is really making me question why I'm bothering with this game.
Pretty much my dilemma. Well except for the last part. PF is great. It's PFS that I wonder about.
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As said by someone else, "PFS isn't for everyone". When someone tells you something is uniquely off putting saying "your opinion is wrong, no one feels that way" may not be the best way to attract potential players. Peace.
While I play a lot of PFS locally, I've never attended a convention. That said, it has been my experience that a GM will rarely ask a player to produce the Bestiary when they summon a creature or use an animal companion. In fact, I've never seen it. What most everyone here is saying however, is that the rules state quite clearly that a player must have a physical or electronic copy of any resource that falls outside the CRB.
The core assumption for GMs is not meant to cover players who didn't bring resources. It is meant to give them access to the resources they will need to prepare and run a scenario. They are not required nor expected to bring anything to the table other than statblocks for creatures not explicitly given in a scenario (and usually the CRB for quick rules checks).
This is meant to ensure that anything a player brings to the table has rules support immediately available for the GM. And yes, it is meant to generate revenue for Paizo. I don't know any specific financials, but I'm guessing the $4 scenarios aren't covering the cost of running an international organized play campaign.
We are stressing the letter of the law because we--many of us frequent GMs--don't want to see a person blindsided by the fact that they cannot play their character. And we don't want to be the ones who have to enforce it should it become an issue.
Are you required to have a copy of the Bestiary to run a summoned animal or companion? As the rules are currently written, yes.
Do you really need to have it 99% of the time? No, and you will probably never need it unless you are using an unusual creature or the statblock you have provided has outlandish numbers. But no one wants to be the person to say that, only to have you hit that 1% and not be able to play.
What I tell players at my table is that they should know the rules and follow them to the best of their ability. I'm not going to be doing extensive audits or checking resources unless I am given a reason to do so. But they should all be aware of the risks they are taking by not having their bases covered.
Finally, judging PFS by forum behavior is not going to give you a realistic view of what you will experience. Even judging it by a single area will only give you part of the picture. You just have to try it and see if you like it. You probably will.
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Buying the books sort of comes with Organized Play. You know, your event coordinators and GMs spend $3.99 per scenario that they run and they don't get anything more than you do out of it. That's right, GMs and Event Coordinators pay out of their own pocket to ensure that you have a good time. It costs pennies to print out a couple of black and white pages. I'm sorry there just isn't a nice way to say it, but if $10 and some change for an additional character option is too much for you, then don't use it.
Buying the books sort of comes with Organized Play. You know, your event coordinators and GMs spend $3.99 per scenario that they run and they don't get anything more than you do out of it. That's right, GMs and Event Coordinators pay out of their own pocket to ensure that you have a good time. It costs pennies to print out a couple of black and white pages. I'm sorry there just isn't a nice way to say it, but if $10 and some change for an additional character option is too much for you, then don't use it.
Doesn't seem like an additional option when it is in the CRB. The fact that it is, is frustrating.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Actually. No they don't. At least not at one of the stores I play at.
The players at the table all chip in 2 dollars. $4.00 goes to buy the scenario. Half the total goes to the GM as store credit. The rest goes to the store.
I don't know about the other store, but since they are still running season 0-1 stuff, and since the GM gets 10% of everything we buy from the store for the evening, yeah...
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Buying the books sort of comes with Organized Play. You know, your event coordinators and GMs spend $3.99 per scenario that they run and they don't get anything more than you do out of it. That's right, GMs and Event Coordinators pay out of their own pocket to ensure that you have a good time. It costs pennies to print out a couple of black and white pages. I'm sorry there just isn't a nice way to say it, but if $10 and some change for an additional character option is too much for you, then don't use it.Doesn't seem like an additional option when it is in the CRB. The fact that it is, is frustrating.
CRB says Animal Companions can take Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural attack. Those feats are also in the Bestiary. If you don't have the Bestiary you can always choose a different character option. Poisons are also in the CRB. But you can't use them unless you buy additional resources that allow you to play a Poisoner Rogue, Ninja, etc. Not everything is usable out of the CRB unless you buy additional resources. This is by design to encourage sales of books.
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Actually. No they don't. At least not at one of the stores I play at.
The players at the table all chip in 2 dollars. $4.00 goes to buy the scenario. Half the total goes to the GM as store credit. The rest goes to the store.
I don't know about the other store, but since they are still running season 0-1 stuff, and since the GM gets 10% of everything we buy from the store for the evening, yeah...
Our FLGS offers GMs $5 of store credit for running a game. With the accumulation of $1 profits I hope to retire when I hit 5 stars.
/Fat Cat GM
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CRB says Animal Companions can take Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural attack. Those feats are also in the Bestiary. If you don't have the Bestiary you can always choose a different character option.
This will likely just make the thread go longer, but in PFS, unless a feat from the Bestiary (like the two you name in the quote) is also printed in another PFS-legal source, you cannot take feats from the Bestiary.
To my knowledge, none of them are re-printed in another legal source, so Improved Nat Armor, Improved Nat Attack, Hover, Flyby Attack, etc cant be taken by animal companions, eidolons, familiars, mounts, or anything else.
@Step
Animal companions are NPCs so it is not the player taking a feat from the Bestiary.
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@Step
Animal companions are NPCs so it is not the player taking a feat from the Bestiary.
I think you need to learn the actual game and get your nomenclature sorted out.
Animal companions are NOT NPCs - they are class features. A "power" your character has.
Summoned monsters are NOT NPCs, either - I suppose one could call it a "spell effect", but a summoned monster isn't the actual monster, just a manifestation of it. This is why summons vanish when they're killed (and why a summoned monster can't use it's innate summoning abilities).
Your whole attempt to create a legalistically-based trolling endeavor collapses under your lack of understanding of what an NPC is.
@Step
Animal companions are NPCs so it is not the player taking a feat from the Bestiary.
I think you need to learn the actual game and get your nomenclature sorted out.
Animal companions are NOT NPCs - they are class features. A "power" your character has.
Summoned monsters are NOT NPCs, either - I suppose one could call it a "spell effect", but a summoned monster isn't the actual monster, just a manifestation of it. This is why summons vanish when they're killed (and why a summoned monster can't use it's innate summoning abilities).
Your whole attempt to create a legalistically-based trolling endeavor collapses under your lack of understanding of what an NPC is.
Actually multiple people in this thread have stated Paizo's statements on the matter of animal companions. They are NPCs.
Calling me a troll over and over again isn't helping.
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@Step
Animal companions are NPCs so it is not the player taking a feat from the Bestiary.
I think you need to learn the actual game and get your nomenclature sorted out.
Animal companions are NOT NPCs - they are class features. A "power" your character has.
Summoned monsters are NOT NPCs, either - I suppose one could call it a "spell effect", but a summoned monster isn't the actual monster, just a manifestation of it. This is why summons vanish when they're killed (and why a summoned monster can't use it's innate summoning abilities).
Your whole attempt to create a legalistically-based trolling endeavor collapses under your lack of understanding of what an NPC is.
Actually multiple people in this thread have stated Paizo's statements on the matter of animal companions. They are NPCs.
Calling me a troll over and over again isn't helping.
1. My name is not Step.
2. You can call them whatever you want. The fact remains that a player in PFS may not choose to use any resource that is not specifically allowed for any part of their character, whether you want to consider that part an NPC or not. The player is the one who chooses what the AC/eidolon/mount/familiar gets for feats, and the player is not allowed to pick those choices since they are not allowed.
@Seth
1. Right you are. Sorry
2. Of course the player would still need to own the bestiary, but they should still be able to have their NPC friend pick feats that the CRB says they can take. Just because the a player can't pick these choices for their PC, doesn't mean that their NPC pet can't.