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The GM prepares the scenario, not every little detail about any possible thing a character might want to do.Because in my experience, that is what makes a person a GM, rather than just a staffer operating under the guidance of a GM.
A GM should:
Know all the core rules and how they are applied
Should have resources on hand to handle most of the common applications of all core rules and should be able to access them without slowing down game.
Should be able to quickly adapt to players doing things not covered by the rules, either through temporary rulings or through applying similar rules.I make a lot allowance for new GMs, especially 1-2 star GMs. By the time you get to 3 & 4 stars, I expect people to meet my minimum standards.
So far what I hear on these boards is:
"I can't stand people sundering, because then I have to go look up the rules, so if they sunder NPCs, I'm going to have NPCs sunder on them!"
"I won't allow people to summon basic animals out of the bestiary like dogs, because looking up a dog's stat block is too much work"I don't hear anyone on these boards offering to make it easier, and in fact, in past threads, when I offered to put together tools to make it easier for GMs, I got told "you can't do that, the players need to memorize all the rules, and need to not use rules I don't know (like sunder.)"
I guess since I don't live up to your standards, because I refuse to let players do things they don't have the resources for, you won't ever be at my table. So no need to worry about it.
I'll go over to my corner of awesome, but just not awesome enough and watch from the sidelines.
Yeah, I guess I suck as a GM too because I don't do all the player's prep for them.
<High Five's Thea!> Yeah! I don't have to GM anymore, cause I suck!
Woot!!!!
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@FLite:
Let me put one more thought onto why the PC should have a resource for a summon at hand. If the player doesn't even have much of an idea of what his/her summon can do, they're going to waste time looking at stats/abilities and figuring out what'll be the best course of action. Even if the GM agreed 'OK, here's my Bestiary' while they decide what summon they want, that's even more of a time sink. Do you want to wait 5+ minutes for a player to read what a Medium sized Air Elemental can do before finally finishing his turn? I would assume not. A rule like this isn't just for convenience for the GM, but for the fellow players, too.
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"I won't allow people to summon basic animals out of the bestiary like dogs, because looking up a dog's stat block is too much work"
I think you may be misunderstanding what the GMs are saying in this thread.
The player who's relying on the GM to provide the stats for (and, as per the OP, possibly run) his summoned monsters is putting the work for "making his spells operate" directly on the GM. It may not take a ton of time, especially for a simple creature, but it's time that the GM is being asked to spend running that player's character for him, as well as running the game itself. And that's time which is being taken away from making the game work for the other 3-5 players who are sitting at that table.
Yes, certainly, a GM should be helping a very new player, who doesn't have the rules knowledge yet (and possibly doesn't have the book yet), to have a fun time.
The GM should not, however, be a crutch for the continuing player who does not want to be bothered with providing the rules content for the things he wants his character to do, because he seems to think that it's something that can be pushed off onto someone else (i.e., the GM). That, I think, is what is being argued against.
Can an experienced GM pull this off? Of course. Should they? Again, only if the player in question is really a newbie.
In addition, if the PC casting summon monster I summons a dog, he's not just summoning a dog -- he's summoning a celestial or fiendish dog. So, if the player is foisting the responsibility for this spell onto the GM, then not only does the GM need to pull up the stats for a basic dog, but they then need to apply the celestial or fiendish template. Again, not difficult (especially not for an experienced GM), but there's another chunk of time spent on only that one player because he won't take responsibility for his own PC's spell.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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...A GM should:
* Know all the core rules and how they are applied
* Have resources on hand to handle most of the common applications of all core rules and should be able to access them without slowing down game.
...I make a lot allowance for new GMs, especially 1-2 star GMs. By the time you get to 3 & 4 stars, I expect people to meet my minimum standards.
Be prepared to live with disappointment.
I've run about 300 tables, and there are spells that I've never seen cast, maneuvers I've never seen attempted, rogue talents and barbarian rage powers I've never seen used, and poisons and diseases I've never seen crop up in play. I do not have the core rules memorized.
If that's what you expect from people after GMing 60 tables, you might want to think about how reasonable your "minimum standards" are.
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I'll say that good, or proper summoners, come prepared to play with a pre-printed list of all of the summons that they will typically use. They already figure in things like Good Summoning, Augment Summoning, and so forth. They move quickly on their turn, already knowing what each summoned creature can do and what its stats are. They plan their turns in advance when possible, and will not drag down an encounter.
Bad summoners ask the GM for stats, forget to add things, have to look up rules, don't plan for durations, wait till their turn to even start considering what their summons will do that round, and generally eat up tons of extra time at the table.
Most GMs appreciate good summoners, and are usually less than happy with bad summoners.
Know your class, bring your sourcebooks, prepare your character prior to the game. Everyone will thank you for it.
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...A GM should:
* Know all the core rules and how they are applied
* Have resources on hand to handle most of the common applications of all core rules and should be able to access them without slowing down game.
...I make a lot allowance for new GMs, especially 1-2 star GMs. By the time you get to 3 & 4 stars, I expect people to meet my minimum standards.
Be prepared to live with disappointment.
I've run about 300 tables, and there are spells that I've never seen cast, maneuvers I've never seen attempted, rogue talents and barbarian rage powers I've never seen used, and poisons and diseases I've never seen crop up in play. I do not have the core rules memorized.
If that's what you expect from people after GMing 60 tables, you might want to think about how reasonable your "minimum expectations" are.
To this point:
I consider myself having a fairly high system mastery quotient (that's SMQ) on a sliding scale from 1-10, with Fairly high being right about 7 or 8 SMQ (Jiggy would be at like a 9 or 9.5--only because nobody is perfect).
But I am not an encyclopedia. I can't regurgitate text off a page at some player's whim. I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant. But that's the way you are coming across.
But while I'm providing a smooth flowing game for 3-5 other players, adjudicating each of their actions without overly slowing down the game, I don't have the time, wherewithal, or interest in stopping everything for several minutes to build a templated stat block for some entitled player who refuses to follow the rules.
As someone above noted, new players are always an exception that I can deal with helping to teach them the rules. But I will not cater to the laziness and rudeness of an entitled player.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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I will not add more work to my work load because a player ambushes me with a spell he cannot legally cast.
Sorry. I have zero sympathy for the argument "The player is adding to my work load." Your are a 4 star GM. If you can't handle the addition of a summon by now, I have no respect for your abilities. About the only situation in which I would accept that argument from you is if this was a pickup game where you just got the scenario an hour before and are struggling to absorb it all in time for game (in which case, it would be entirely reasonable to say before game "Hey guys, I'm not prepared for tonight, can we please stick to relatively simple characters to GM?")
The reason no GM, including a 4-star, 5-star, or 0-star (like), should do this is because it is not the responsibility of the GM to do so. It is entirely the player's responsibility, as has been stated and supported here by countless individuals.
If a player forgets his or her dice, is it my job as the GM to provide a set? If a player forgets his or her chronicle sheets, is it my responsibility to rectify that? The answer, in both cases, is no. The same is true here. This is a player's responsibility.
And, let me tell you what this thread has done - it has absolutely changed my mind on something. Based on this thread, I will no longer allow the PFSRD to be used for summon monster spells or any such item. If a player at my PFS tables casts such a spell, he or she had better have the Bestiary (physical copy), a printed out of his or her watermarked pdf copy, or the soft copy of his or her watermarked version (on a tablet, laptop, etc.)
This one argument has absolutely convinced of the need to strictly adhere to that rule.
Mark
If it helps, I was asking about the rule from the PFS is marketing perspective.
It is very easy for any player to prep a summon using the PRD and to print out sheets from the PRD.
That doesn't mean they own a bestiary in book or pdf form.
My original question was asking, if in the case a player used summon monster, but was not allowed to run the monster because they didn't own a bestiary, can said player then hand the monster's stat block card he prepped to the GM and have him run the monster.
The answer has been no. Do to summoning being the player bringing something into the game and requiring legal rules ownership of anything that they try to bring to the game.
I won't get into whether or not this is a right or wrong from a moral or health of organized play standpoint. That was never the question. This thread was about what the LAWFUL thing to do in this situation was, not the GOOD thing to do.
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If it helps, I was asking about the rule from the PFS is marketing perspective.
It is very easy for any player to prep a summon using the PRD and to print out sheets from the PRD.
That doesn't mean they own a bestiary in book or pdf form.
My original question was asking, if in the case a player used summon monster, but was not allowed to run the monster because they didn't own a bestiary, can said player then hand the monster's stat block card he prepped to the GM and have him run the monster.
The answer has been no. Do to summoning being the player bringing something into the game and requiring legal rules ownership of anything that they try to bring to the game.
I won't get into whether or not this is a right or wrong from a moral or health of organized play standpoint. That was never the question. This thread was about what the LAWFUL thing to do in this situation was, not the GOOD thing to do.
You are correct. From the very beginning you were very clear that you were willing to do the leg work on coming up with stat blocks that were not directly from the Bestiary.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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If it helps, I was asking about the rule from the PFS is marketing perspective.
It is very easy for any player to prep a summon using the PRD and to print out sheets from the PRD.
That doesn't mean they own a bestiary in book or pdf form.
My original question was asking, if in the case a player used summon monster, but was not allowed to run the monster because they didn't own a bestiary, can said player then hand the monster's stat block card he prepped to the GM and have him run the monster.
The answer has been no. Do to summoning being the player bringing something into the game and requiring legal rules ownership of anything that they try to bring to the game.
I won't get into whether or not this is a right or wrong from a moral or health of organized play standpoint. That was never the question. This thread was about what the LAWFUL thing to do in this situation was, not the GOOD thing to do.
Pathfinder, you could have said that many, many postings ago. Instead, you turned down a road of questions about dominate, etc. This thread headed into directions (and apparently some unpleasant, though those were removed before I read them) it probably should not have.
It seems as if your question has been sufficiently answered, but perhaps not in the way you would have liked (I can't tell, but that's okay.)
As a GM, I try to give my players the maximum benefit of the doubt, but these rules in organized play exist for one reason or another. GMing for society play, and particularly for a convention, isn't wholly a simple exercise. You have to plan for multiple tiers, differing levels of player skills, etc. (Of course, if you run for the same group, you have better knowledge and predictability up front.) To add this thing, which may seem simple to you, isn't. If you want the GM to give you the best experience, then he or she has got to be focused only on those things that the GM should be focused on. Players have a responsibility to do their work, too. It would never occur to me to ask a GM to run a summoned creature for me.
I do what I can to help out the players at my table (particularly if they are paying to play.) I won't run summoned monsters, however. If a player does not want to invest in the resource that he or she is required to, then he or she is free to make another character of a class that doesn't use any resource other than the CRB.
I have a responsibility to all the players at my table, not the one (or two, or whatever) that don't seem to the think (a) the rules do or should apply to them, or (b) that don't want to buy (or cannot afford) the required resources.
Mark
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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"I won't allow people to summon basic animals out of the bestiary like dogs, because looking up a dog's stat block is too much work"I think you may be misunderstanding what the GMs are saying in this thread.
That's fair. I felt like the GM's were saying "It doesn't matter how basic the animal is, it's more work so I won''t do it."
The player who's relying on the GM to provide the stats for (and, as per the OP, possibly run) his summoned monsters is putting the work for "making his spells operate" directly on the GM. It may not take a ton of time, especially for a simple creature, but it's time that the GM is being asked to spend running that player's character for him, as well as running the game itself. And that's time which is being taken away from making the game work for the other 3-5 players who are sitting at that table.
Actually, I seem to remember there was a thread on here about GMs saying they reserve the right to run summoned monsters if they don't feel the player is running them appropriately, and that allowing players to run summons was a privilege that could be revoked and was only granted if it made it more fun.
Yes, certainly, a GM should be helping a very new player, who doesn't have the rules knowledge yet (and possibly doesn't have the book yet), to have a fun time.
I may have been reading into it, but the OP seemed to be asking the question from the standpoint of should a new player have to have the book to cast these summons.
I agree that good players should put in the legwork to make their characters work smoothly and fast. (By the way, I hold them to high standards too, and yes I extend those high standards to myself. If I can't figure out what my actions will be in about 5 seconds, I delay and pass or total defense until I can figure out what to do. In the last two months it has happened twice. And part of the reason I don't have GM stars is that I do not yet meet my own standards for GMing pathfinder. Also I don't currently have the 4 hours a week (minimum) of prep time I would require to run a pathfinder scenario.)
The GM should not, however, be a crutch for the continuing player who does not want to be bothered with providing the rules content for the things he wants his character to do, because he seems to think that it's something that can be pushed off onto someone else (i.e., the GM). That, I think, is what is being argued against.
Here is where I run into the problem with the argument. At least the way I prep myself for games, if I have prepped myself to run, and I have given myself the necessary tools to support a new player in this fashion, I have already done the work that will make it trivially easy to support an advanced player in summoning those same simple monsters. I will concede that maybe my experience is unique, I know I run a *lot* more tool heavy than most GMs, and maybe that is the difference, but it doesn't really hurt me to carry someone who is using the basics this way.
Now if they want to get into alternate summons lists, or lots of summons with special attacks and special powers, then yeah, that starts to be extra work for me, and I feel comfortable saying "hey look, I'm not prepared and you didn't warn me before game and you didn't do the prep work for me, so I need you to scale it back to the basic list."
I just feel a better way to address these issues is to come together as a community and fix the problem than to complain that the problem is too much work.
I am a little bogged down with projects and learning pathfinder well enough to meet my own standards. But if someone want to make a deck of the simplest 5 monsters in the first three levels of summon monster, and put it together in publisher or word or OpenOffice or something, I'll PDF it and host it, and we can link it to the boards. Or if someone like Netheys has already done it, we can link it and it can just be one more page in your GM tools binder, and it need not be any work at all, and then you can say "hey look, these are the animals I have on hand, if you need something else, I need you to look it up."
For that matter, I know d20pfsrd has the stat blocks for all the first level summons with the templates preapplied. I also know d20pfsrd occasionally messes up (especially when applying templates.) Would someone be willing to go through and check those blocks, validate them, and make sure they are right? (Or better yet several someones so we have multiple validations?) and then we can format them for printout and people can use that?
If something in the game system is too much work, lets make it less work.
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I am a little bogged down with projects and learning pathfinder well enough to meet my own standards. But if someone want to make a deck of the simplest 5 monsters in the first three levels of summon monster, and put it together in publisher or word or OpenOffice or something, I'll PDF it and host it, and we can link it to the boards. Or if someone like Netheys has already done it, we can link it and it can just be one more page in your GM tools binder, and it need not be any work at all, and then you can say "hey look, these are the animals I have on hand, if you need something else, I need you to look it up."
For that matter, I know d20pfsrd has the stat blocks for all the first level summons with the templates preapplied. I also know d20pfsrd occasionally messes up (especially when applying templates.) Would someone be willing to go through and check those blocks, validate them, and make sure they are right? (Or better yet several someones so we have multiple validations?) and then we can format them for printout and people can use that?
If something in the game system is too much work, lets make it less work.
You are missing the point. In Pathfinder Society play that is not legal. You can't point to printed stat blocks without having the source with you, nor can you point to the d20pfsrd.
You need to take a closer look at http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/about/additionalResources and fully understand what that means. Keep in mind that the Field Guide and Bestiary are no longer considered Core Assumption, and fall under this rule as well, as defined in the most recent addition of the PFS Guide to Organized Play.
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Actually, I seem to remember there was a thread on here about GMs saying they reserve the right to run summoned monsters if they don't feel the player is running them appropriately, and that allowing players to run summons was a privilege that could be revoked and was only granted if it made it more fun.
True, though the OP had the player asking the GM to do two separate things:
1) Provide the stats for his summoned critters2) Run said summoned critters
Here is where I run into the problem with the argument. At least the way I prep myself for games, if I have prepped myself to run, and I have given myself the necessary tools to support a new player in this fashion, I have already done the work that will make it trivially easy to support an advanced player in summoning those same simple monsters. I will concede that maybe my experience is unique, I know I run a *lot* more tool heavy than most GMs, and maybe that is the difference, but it doesn't really hurt me to carry someone who is using the basics this way.
Fair enough, but PFS does not require or necessarily expect that the GM will have a physical or PDF copy of Bestiary I at the table with them during play (as noted earlier, they at least need access to that book during adventure prep, but that's pre-game). Some GMs bring it along, but it's not, currently, a requirement.
Even if it's "trivially easy", for most GMs (i.e., those who don't already have a sheet made up for summoned monsters, as you propose), it's still 2-3 minutes spent doing a lazy player's homework in the middle of combat, as you look the critter up in the Bestiary, do the stat adjustments for the template, and record those stats somewhere for use during the combat.
I say "lazy player" because you specifically describe "to support an advanced player", so we're no longer talking about taking the time to help a new player learn the game. We're talking about a player who (a) should know better by now, and (b) should be taking that responsibility on himself.
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The main problem might be that you are expecting a "home game" experience at an organized play event. You may grant a certain amount of flexibility with your regular groups, but a GM who has no idea what players will be at his table from week to week does not have that kind of advanced knowledge, and simply cannot prepare for every situation. This is why the rules we have exist.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Maybe I'm misreading the requirements then. I'm willing to accept that. But here is what I am going on:
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every player has the following resources.
• Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook
• Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play (this document)
Additionally, a GM should have access to all books in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line of hardcover rulebooks, whether a physical or electronic copy. The rules content of these books can be found online for free as part of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document located at paizo.com/prd....
In order to utilize content from an Additional Resource, a player must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it, or a printout of the relevant pages from it, as well as a copy of the current version of the Additional
Resources list.
To me, that says that at the table each player should have a licenced CRB, and at the table the GM should have access to all the hardbacks or the PRD.
If you are saying that the GM only needs access to the prd during prep, then the same reading of the rules here would say to me that the player only has to have licenced content during prep. Since all the clarifications are that the player has to have access at the table, I have been reading it as the GM must have access to the PRD or the hardbacks at the table. (Certainly I have had experiences where the GM didn't have access during game and overlooked something during prep and had to either flail or borrow my laptop to look it up. But it is my belief that under the rules as written they should have all that at the table.)
Even if it's "trivially easy", it's still 2-3 minutes spent doing a lazy player's homework in the middle of combat, as you look the critter up in the Bestiary, do the stat adjustments for the template, and record those stats somewhere for use during the combat.
This again is where my approach tends to be different. It sounds like (so correct me if I am wrong) your approach to supporting a beginning player is to look this up in game. Thus, when you run into an advanced player, you have to look this up in game. My approach to support a beginning player is to make a cheat sheet. And then keep a copy of the cheat sheet for myself.
The difference is, that you are spending 2-3 minutes in game, but each player who doesn't prepare costs you the time. I am spending 30-60 minutes once, so that everyone who has access to the cheat sheet can spend 15 seconds in game, whether they are new or advanced.
And for everyone who wants to say "cheat sheets aren't PFS legal," I've seen a lot of people advocating the use of the grappling cheat sheet, which is third party. I see plenty of people on this board talking about using netheys to check if stuff is PFS legal. I'm not talking about using the d20pfs to let players take blood money or snowball, I'm talking about using community resources so that GMs have an easier time and in turn can make their players lives better and run a smoother game. (Also it means that the next time an NPC has a summon spell, you are already prepared, so you save your self work too.)
Frankly, I don't complain that I am having to do the GM's work when he overlooks something in his prep and asks me or one of the other players what the rule is or if we can look it up. It's a community game, we should all be doing what it takes to make the game fun. If something is making the game less fun because it takes too much work, then we should be working together as a community to make it take less work, not saying we won't do it.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The main problem might be that you are expecting a "home game" experience at an organized play event. You may grant a certain amount of flexibility with your regular groups, but a GM who has no idea what players will be at his table from week to week does not have that kind of advanced knowledge, and simply cannot prepare for every situation. This is why the rules we have exist.
Except that I have run 40 person larps, where anywhere from 5-20 people might show up, and it's different people each week, and people bring drop ins from out of town. So, yeah, I really didn't know who or what was going to show up. (And if you think prepping 3 tiers for 4-7 players is hard, try prepping the equivalent of 5 tiers for between 3-25 players for an eight hour game. And you have to have all the players from level 1-12 be able to find ways to contribute without making everything so easy the level 12s fall asleep. And then you have to do three of these per game, because you don't know which one the players are going to actually be interested in, or you have to find a way to make them run the plot you want without making them feel railroaded. That game involved 20 hours a week of prep or more for me, the 10 hours a week for my wife, and and a 4 hour staff meeting each week for an every other week game.)
And I'm not talking about preparing for every situation, I'm talking about preparing for a fairly simple situation where the GM has the basic summons from the core book, possibly minus some of the ones (like elementals as I mentioned before) that can have complicated or hard to run powers. And the preparation the GM does here also means that when he runs an NPC with summons, he is prepared for that too with no additional work.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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To me, that says that at the table each player should have a licenced CRB, and at the table the GM should have access to all the hardbacks or the PRD.If you are saying that the GM only needs access to the prd during prep, then the same reading of the rules here would say to me that the player only has to have licenced content during prep.
If I have to have access to all the hardcovers at the table, I'll have to tender my resignation. I don't own some of the hardcovers, and I don't have access to the PRD at the table.
I'm afraid I don't understand "players ... during prep". How is a player preparing the scenario?
Generally, you are putting the table GM and the player on equal standing. That strikes me as wrong. The player needs to show GMs any non-Core material they are using. They need to have the physical product, a PDF, etc. The rules are straight-forward, and the forums sag under the weight of the electrons used to repeat these rules over and over again.
The GM has no equal-but-opposite burden to the players. She doesn't have to show the players the rules she's referencing, or the game stats of any monsters. She can look up monsters on the PRD and bring her hand-written notes to the table. The roles are not equal in that way.
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So...since the field guide is not in the additional resources list, it's not legal for use now as well? I was under the impression that the core assumption listed on the additional resources were correct until they moved the field guide into the additional resources list so as to make it so we can still use said book. It remains to be seen if the bestiary stays on the list (the old guide to organized play did not list that under core assumption either I believe and it was just listed under...Really? The Field Guide isn't on the list? Check again. (Or use Ctrl-F)
Why is it not in red...razzle frazzle. Anyways, the old guide to organized play doesn't listed the bestiary under the core assumption. It is only listed as such on the additional resources page. So while the field guide definitely should be removed, I think the bestiary is still suppose to be a part of core assumption. Which mean a PRD print out should be just fine for the summon happy player.
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How many copies of the summon statblocks do you intend to print?
After Player 1 has borrowed them from you, Player 2 pipes up that he'd like to summon, so do you pass them a second copy? Or do they have to borrow from Player 1? And then keep passing it back and forth every round?
Player 3 decides to Animate the corpse of the previous encounter.
They have no idea how the template affects the target; do you have a printout prepared for that? No? Why not?
I suppose you have to give them your Bestiary.
What happens when the next encounter breaks out, while they're still copying it out?
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This again is where my approach tends to be different. It sounds like (so correct me if I am wrong) your approach to supporting a beginning player is to look this up in game. Thus, when you run into an advanced player, you have to look this up in game. My approach to support a beginning player is to make a cheat sheet. And then keep a copy of the cheat sheet for myself.
The difference is, that you are spending 2-3 minutes in game, but each player who doesn't prepare costs you the time. I am spending 30-60 minutes once, so that everyone who has access to the cheat sheet can spend 15 seconds in game, whether they are new or advanced.
I think that's an accurate representation. However...
IME, it's the rare truly-new player who tries to play a complex character type (like a summoning-focused caster) first time out of the box. So, having to provide something like a summoning cheat-sheet to a new player is something I've run into so rarely*, that it's not something I'd spend pre-game time putting together.
Now, if I were the player of a summoner PC, I'd absolutely be making up my own cheat-sheets, based on the Bestiary info, and I'd be happy to share those with another player, but that's a different situation. Having those on-hand for players, just in case, is above-and-beyond duty for a GM -- it's certainly a cool thing, but it's really not something I'd want to ever put into the set of expectations I have for any GM.
* Aside: as long as we're trading bona fides...I, too, have 30+ years of GMing various RPGs, primarily various versions of D&D, and 12 years of experience in GMing for various Organized Play campaigns.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Past experience suggests that I will print a pool of 5, and as they get depleted I will bring them back up. If they are constantly getting depleted, I will bring it up to 10. I will probably laminate 2 or 3 and require that those get returned at the end of night.
If player 1 & 2 are sitting next to each other, I would expect them, as a courtesy to share a copy, and if they tell me they are both summon based characters before game I might ask them to sit next to each other.
Re: animation. Nope. I don't You are right, I should go look at those rules and see if it needs a stat block. After all, animate dead is clearly a legal spell, and I think most people would feel it is unreasonable to say "you can only cast it on a target if you have the source the target came out of." So maybe I should have a sheet for that.
A cursory look says that animate object or plant may be as big or bigger a hassle than animate undead. I think I would like to have a laminated sheet with six stat block prefilled with the basics of each spell, with gaps for any characteristics the target modifies. (such as size)
Thank you, I will have to go look at that.
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Why is it not in red...razzle frazzle. Anyways, the old guide to organized play doesn't listed the bestiary under the core assumption. It is only listed as such on the additional resources page. So while the field guide definitely should be removed, I think the bestiary is still suppose to be a part of core assumption. Which mean a PRD print out should be just fine for the summon happy player.So...since the field guide is not in the additional resources list, it's not legal for use now as well? I was under the impression that the core assumption listed on the additional resources were correct until they moved the field guide into the additional resources list so as to make it so we can still use said book. It remains to be seen if the bestiary stays on the list (the old guide to organized play did not list that under core assumption either I believe and it was just listed under...Really? The Field Guide isn't on the list? Check again. (Or use Ctrl-F)
It has been stated over and over now. The PRD is not a legal source for players. If you bring print outs of PRD stat blocks and do not have a copy of the bestiary. The GM can and should let your spell fizzle. It is the players job to bring the book that they are trying to use content from.
Yes, GMs are treated differently. They do not need to own copies of all of the 10 hardcovers to run the game for you. That is over a hundred dollars in PDF alone or $500 in physical books. If GMs do not have a book then they can use the PRD as the source, not players. If GMs were expected to own all of these books before they can volunteer their time to run a game, then there would not be very many GMs.
Chris Mortika is one of the best GMs I know. He has already stated he ran 300+ tables and he does not own all of the books. So the pRD is a resource he can use, for GM purposes only, to make sure his tables are ran they way they are supposed to.
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Why is it not in red...razzle frazzle. Anyways, the old guide to organized play doesn't listed the bestiary under the core assumption. It is only listed as such on the additional resources page. So while the field guide definitely should be removed, I think the bestiary is still suppose to be a part of core assumption. Which mean a PRD print out should be just fine for the summon happy player.So...since the field guide is not in the additional resources list, it's not legal for use now as well? I was under the impression that the core assumption listed on the additional resources were correct until they moved the field guide into the additional resources list so as to make it so we can still use said book. It remains to be seen if the bestiary stays on the list (the old guide to organized play did not list that under core assumption either I believe and it was just listed under...Really? The Field Guide isn't on the list? Check again. (Or use Ctrl-F)
When in doubt - go with the most recently updated resource. In this case the Guide 5.0. The Guide doesn't have the Bestiary in the Core Assumption.
In any case, it should now be updated when the new AR goes live next.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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@Mike Mistele
Like I said, I do tend to run tool heavy myself. I like to be prepared for the weird stuff. I think this may be a local community thing. My local community likes to go straight for the weird stuff. (half of them go for the weird stuff because they like to be different and unique. Some of them just like weird stuff, and a certain small number have figured out that if your PC is weird enough, the GM won't know when you are breaking the rules and when you are just using a rule he's not familiar with. Those are the ones you have to watch out for.)
I have entire binders of sorted cheat sheets for large games I've run with variable character pools. For the really complex rules the cheat sheets get turned into silverlight scripts. For my "home game" I don't usually bother.
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Why is it not in red...razzle frazzle. Anyways, the old guide to organized play doesn't listed the bestiary under the core assumption. It is only listed as such on the additional resources page. So while the field guide definitely should be removed, I think the bestiary is still suppose to be a part of core assumption. Which mean a PRD print out should be just fine for the summon happy player.So...since the field guide is not in the additional resources list, it's not legal for use now as well? I was under the impression that the core assumption listed on the additional resources were correct until they moved the field guide into the additional resources list so as to make it so we can still use said book. It remains to be seen if the bestiary stays on the list (the old guide to organized play did not list that under core assumption either I believe and it was just listed under...Really? The Field Guide isn't on the list? Check again. (Or use Ctrl-F)When in doubt - go with the most recently updated resource. In this case the Guide 5.0. The Guide doesn't have the Bestiary in the Core Assumption.
In any case, it should now be updated when the new AR goes live next.
Or go with what is RAW? Which is what is listed under the additional resources page as well as what is in the guide.
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Even if the Bestiary were to be listed as a book the GM must have to hand during the game, doesn't mean they should be forced to pass it round the players.
Have you seen some of the players? Have you seen how they treat their books?
Neither Mr CheetoFingers nor Mr PieBeard, nor Ms LickHerFingersBeforeTurningThePage, are getting their hands on my library.
Neither are the ones who slap their paws or elbows on the pages and drag them across, often in directions the pages were never designed to move (wtf?).
You have opposable thumbs for a reason. Learn to use them.
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Why is it not in red...razzle frazzle. Anyways, the old guide to organized play doesn't listed the bestiary under the core assumption. It is only listed as such on the additional resources page. So while the field guide definitely should be removed, I think the bestiary is still suppose to be a part of core assumption. Which mean a PRD print out should be just fine for the summon happy player.So...since the field guide is not in the additional resources list, it's not legal for use now as well? I was under the impression that the core assumption listed on the additional resources were correct until they moved the field guide into the additional resources list so as to make it so we can still use said book. It remains to be seen if the bestiary stays on the list (the old guide to organized play did not list that under core assumption either I believe and it was just listed under...Really? The Field Guide isn't on the list? Check again. (Or use Ctrl-F)
Nope. The PRD is not a valid source for a player under any circumstances. Period.
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Why is it not in red...razzle frazzle. Anyways, the old guide to organized play doesn't listed the bestiary under the core assumption. It is only listed as such on the additional resources page. So while the field guide definitely should be removed, I think the bestiary is still suppose to be a part of core assumption. Which mean a PRD print out should be just fine for the summon happy player.So...since the field guide is not in the additional resources list, it's not legal for use now as well? I was under the impression that the core assumption listed on the additional resources were correct until they moved the field guide into the additional resources list so as to make it so we can still use said book. It remains to be seen if the bestiary stays on the list (the old guide to organized play did not list that under core assumption either I believe and it was just listed under...Really? The Field Guide isn't on the list? Check again. (Or use Ctrl-F)It has been stated over and over now. The PRD is not a legal source for players. If you bring print outs of PRD stat blocks and do not have a copy of the bestiary. The GM can and should let your spell fizzle. It is the players job to bring the book that they are trying to use content from.
Yes, GMs are treated differently. They do not need to own copies of all of the 10 hardcovers to run the game for you. That is over a hundred dollars in PDF alone or $500 in physical books. If GMs do not have a book then they can use the PRD as the source, not players. If GMs were expected to own all of these books before they can volunteer their time to run a game, then there would not be very many GMs.
Chris Mortika is one of the best GMs I know. He has already stated he ran 300+ tables and he does not own all of the books. So the pRD is a resource he can use, for GM purposes only, to make sure his tables are ran they way they are supposed to.
YOU DO NOT have to lug around thing under core assumption. The bestiary is currently according to the additional resources page a part of core assumption. The GM is suppose to actually cover the core assumption aspect, while the players are responsible for all the additional resources.
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It has been stated over and over now. The PRD is not a legal source for players. If you bring print outs of PRD stat blocks and do not have a copy of the bestiary. The GM can and should let your spell fizzle. It is the players job to bring the book that they are trying to use content from.Except the question is, when a player casts a summon spell, if the GM has the stat block, shouldn't it be legal? And to keep this perfectly clear, we are talking only about the case where the character is summoning creatures from the default list, and preferably creatures without complex powers.
Or to take the example up thread, do you also ban animate plant, animate object, and animate dead? All of these reference the bestiary. For that matter, do you just say "sorry, you can't play a druid unless you own bestiary, one of your class features can't be used without it."
No, it is players responsibility to provide the stat block, not the GMs. If this is just marketing tactic for Paizo, then so be it. We are playing their game, so it is their rules. Their rules clearly state that end order how a player to use abilities, spells, etc. that are not fully contained in the CRB or the Guide to Organized Play then they have to own a copy of the book it is taken from.
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Again, let me reiterate.
Core Assumption does not mean you don't have to own the book, nor does it mean you don't have to bring the book.
I think its absurd that folks think that because the Core Rulebook is core assumption, that you don't have to own it to play Pathfinder.
That's ridiculous.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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No, it is players responsibility to provide the stat block, not the GMs. If this is just marketing tactic for Paizo, then so be it. We are playing their game, so it is their rules. Their rules clearly state that end order how a player to use abilities, spells, etc. that are not fully contained in the CRB or the Guide to Organized Play then they have to own a copy of the book it is taken from.
Or to take the example up thread, do you also ban animate plant, animate object, and animate dead? All of these reference the bestiary. For that matter, do you just say "sorry, you can't play a druid unless you own bestiary, one of your class features can't be used without it."
So you *are* saying you do not allow players to cast animate object and animate plant unless they bring a bestiary to the table? And you do not allow Druids to wildshape?
Since the core assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized Play is the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide, and the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, we cannot assume that every Game Master will have the products listed below. As such, it's up to players to bring these items in order to familiarize their Game Masters with the rules.
I read this as you only need the resource if it is not in one of the above. And while the latest guide doesn't mention the bestiary in core assumptions, it also (to me) implies that the AR posted online overrides the guide.
Now if they update that of FAQ that, I'll reconsider, but the AR has been updated since the guide came out, and they haven't changed that language.