Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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A player wants to use Summon Monster, and then claims that summoned creature is an NPC, this being the responsibility of the GM to run. Is that what I read here?
Frankly, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, I find that view completely wrong. Does that mean that a paladin's mount or a druid's animal companion should be run by the GM as well, as such creatures are NPCs?
Good luck getting paladins and druids to give that up.
If you are at my table, and you summon a monster and do not have the stat blocks for it, then you don't summon the monster (I suppose if I have a physical copy of the bestiary present, I could let you use mine.) If you summon a monster, YOU run it, not the GM. I don't know of a single GM who does otherwise (though I will acknowledge that it is possible.)
Why don't you want to run the creature that you summon?
So what's going on?
Situation:
Player has all stats printed out from the PRD for the monsters he wants to summon.
Player does not own the bestiary.
Player owns the CRB, where summon monster states what monsters they can summon.
Player summons a monster using a spell that is legal for him to use.
What happens now? PFS rule-wise.
I see one of many options happening (note this is rule-wise, not actual human reactions)
1) Summons are firmly under the control of the player at all times. Spell fizzes out, do to player not owning bestiary.
2) Summons are under control of the GM as NPCs.
a) Do to player not owning bestiary, GM will not let player control monsters unless they have a bestiary.
b) GM abdicates control of summons to a player, who acts as GM for the monsters to speed up play
c) GM will not abdicate control of summons to player who does not own bestiary. So GM gives control to a player that does own a bestiary.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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So what's going on?
Situation:
Player has all stats printed out from the PRD for the monsters he wants to summon.
Player does not own the bestiary.
Player owns the CRB, where summon monster states what monsters they can summon.
Player summons a monster using a spell that is legal for him to use.
What happens now? PFS rule-wise.
I see one of many options happening (note this is rule-wise, not actual human reactions)
1) Summons are firmly under the control of the player at all times. Spell fizzes out, do to player not owning bestiary.
2) Summons are under control of the GM as NPCs.
a) Do to player not owning bestiary, GM will not let player control monsters unless they have a bestiary.
b) GM abdicates control of summons to a player, who acts as GM for the monsters to speed up play
c) GM will not abdicate control of summons to player who does not own bestiary. So GM gives control to a player that does own a bestiary.
You proceed from the assumption that summoned creatures are NPCs, and thus the responsibility of the GM. Would you please cite to me the rule source for this opinion?
I do not know any rule that this is the case.
There have been many people, myself included, here summoned creatures are not NPCs and the GM will not run them as such.
So you feel that the answer is case 1)?
So what's going on?
Situation:
Player has all stats printed out from the PRD for the monsters he wants to summon.
Player does not own the bestiary.
Player owns the CRB, where summon monster states what monsters they can summon.
Player summons a monster using a spell that is legal for him to use.
What happens now? PFS rule-wise.
I see one of many options happening (note this is rule-wise, not actual human reactions)
1) Summons are firmly under the control of the player at all times. Spell fizzes out, do to player not owning bestiary.
2) Summons are under control of the GM as NPCs.
a) Do to player not owning bestiary, GM will not let player control monsters unless they have a bestiary.
b) GM abdicates control of summons to a player, who acts as GM for the monsters to speed up play
c) GM will not abdicate control of summons to player who does not own bestiary. So GM gives control to a player that does own a bestiary.You proceed from the assumption that summoned creatures are NPCs, and thus the responsibility of the GM. Would you please cite to me the rule source for this opinion?
I do not know any rule that this is the case.
Well no. There are two options there. I don't understand what a summon is, if not an NPC, but case 1) accounts for them being some anomaly in the rules.
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No you can't. But the GM can ask you to leave the table.I guess my issue is that I am perfectly willing to do the legwork needed to run summons, but I feel cheated that I can't use rules that I own without buying another book.
I own the CRB and want to use summon monster. I want to use and control the monsters. I don't want to buy another book to be able to cast a spell in a book I already own.
If a GM demands I have a bestiary to use summon monster, a spell from a book that I own. I can easily turn it around and have the GM run my summons for me as the NPCs that they are. I don't want to do this, but you as the GM would be forcing to do that if I want to make use of the rules I bought in the CRB.
Oh and why is that? I have all the NPC monsters stated out using the CRB. The GM refuses to let me run them because I do not own a bestiary. GMs are the one's who are suppose to run NPCs.
What part of, "I use this spell, from this book I own" is illegal in PFS play?
Furthermore as NPCs, can a player not use the PRD to run them? GMs use the PRD to run NPCs. Why couldn't a player when they are doing the GM's job for them?
1) How did you stat the monsters out using the CRB? The CRB doesn’t have monster stat blocks.
2) You are under the mistaken impression that summoned monsters are NPCs. They are not. They are spell effects. As such, whoever casts the spell controls the spell effects, unless otherwise stipulated by the spell.
3) You are also under the mistaken impression that a GM actually has to bring the entire Bestiary to a game he’s running. He only has to have it available to him when he’s prepping a scenario. Then he can print out only the stat blocks he needs to run that specific scenario.
4) So the reason the precedent is set that you need to have your own source for stat blocks, is because the GM is not required to actually have the source for you at the table.
5) Additionally, the rules of the game say that you need to bring your own source to use spells, feats, classes, archetypes, traits, et. al. that your character has. One of the sources required to run summoned creatures is the Bestiary from which that creature comes. That’s the nature of the spell. The same as a Druid who cannot use an animal companion choice that they are otherwise completely allowed to use, when the stat blocks are not in the CRB.
6) The rules also state you need the actual hard cover book, Electronic version of your water-marked PDF, or a printout of your water-marked PDF as a source. Players are not allowed to use the PRD, printouts of the PRD, 3rd party applications, 3rd party website databases, etc. That’s the rules. You may not like them. But that’s the rules. Now once you’ve shown proof, a GM may allow you to use 3rd party applications or websites or hard copy sources that work to just stat out monster stat blocks once you’ve shown ownership of the bestiary. Because those resources and tools are very useful. I use a 3rd party application called Summoner on my tablet for my Summon Nature’s Ally spell for my Druid. It adds templates and such, pretty spiffy. But I also have access to a Bestiary on my tablet should the GM want to see one.
The point being:
- You cannot force the GM to do anything.
- You must bring your own sources. If you refuse, on whatever grounds you feel are justified, a GM, by rule, is allowed to deny you use of that spell.
- Summoned creatures are not NPCs, they are spell effects, and you control your own spell effects unless the spell specifically stipulates otherwise.
- The CRB is not the only source you need to cast summon monster or any summon spell for that matter.
- If you refuse to respect the rules or the GM when he asks you to follow the rules, then the GM has every right to ask you to leave the table. You can like that or not, but that’s how things work in PFS.
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Frankly, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, I find that view completely wrong. Does that mean that a paladin's mount or a druid's animal companion should be run by the GM as well, as such creatures are NPCs?
Good luck getting paladins and druids to give that up.
Derailing, but actually this WAS clarified in Ultimate Campaign. Animal Companions with <3 INT are actually in control of the GM:
Nonsentient Companions: A nonsentient companion (one with animal-level intelligence) is loyal to you in the way a well-trained dog is—the creature is conditioned to obey your commands, but its behavior is limited by its intelligence and it can't make altruistic moral decisions—such as nobly sacrificing itself to save another. Animal companions, cavalier mounts, and purchased creatures (such as common horses and guard dogs) fall into this category. In general they're GM-controlled companions. You can direct them using the Handle Animal skill, but their specific behavior is up to the GM.
However, as a PFS GM and player, I have yet seen any GM take on that task, usually delegating to players their ACs control and retaining veto power over anything the player wants to have the ACs do that is out of the norm.
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A player wants to use Summon Monster, and then claims that summoned creature is an NPC, this being the responsibility of the GM to run. Is that what I read here?
Frankly, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, I find that view completely wrong. Does that mean that a paladin's mount or a druid's animal companion should be run by the GM as well, as such creatures are NPCs?
Good luck getting paladins and druids to give that up.
If you are at my table, and you summon a monster and do not have the stat blocks for it, then you don't summon the monster (I suppose if I have a physical copy of the bestiary present, I could let you use mine.) If you summon a monster, YOU run it, not the GM. I don't know of a single GM who does otherwise (though I will acknowledge that it is possible.)
Why don't you want to run the creature that you summon?
According to Ultimate Campaign, once a companion has an Intelligence of 3 or higher, it is considered under the control of the Player, not the GM.
Prior to an Intelligence of 3, the animal is considered "under the control of the GM" but "directed by the player." This essentially means that the Player gives the animal companion its orders, and the GM can decide if the animal will actually follow the command based on the situation and circumstance.
EDIT: Ninja'd!
Frankly, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, I find that view completely wrong. Does that mean that a paladin's mount or a druid's animal companion should be run by the GM as well, as such creatures are NPCs?
Good luck getting paladins and druids to give that up.
Derailing, but actually this WAS clarified in Ultimate Campaign. Animal Companions with <3 INT are actually in control of the GM:
Nonsentient Companions: A nonsentient companion (one with animal-level intelligence) is loyal to you in the way a well-trained dog is—the creature is conditioned to obey your commands, but its behavior is limited by its intelligence and it can't make altruistic moral decisions—such as nobly sacrificing itself to save another. Animal companions, cavalier mounts, and purchased creatures (such as common horses and guard dogs) fall into this category. In general they're GM-controlled companions. You can direct them using the Handle Animal skill, but their specific behavior is up to the GM.However, as a PFS GM and player, I have yet seen any GM take on that task, usually delegating to players their ACs control and retaining veto power over anything the player wants to have the ACs do that is out of the norm.
Which is how I understood summons are ran.
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Which is how I understood summons are ran.Frankly, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, I find that view completely wrong. Does that mean that a paladin's mount or a druid's animal companion should be run by the GM as well, as such creatures are NPCs?
Good luck getting paladins and druids to give that up.
Derailing, but actually this WAS clarified in Ultimate Campaign. Animal Companions with <3 INT are actually in control of the GM:
Nonsentient Companions: A nonsentient companion (one with animal-level intelligence) is loyal to you in the way a well-trained dog is—the creature is conditioned to obey your commands, but its behavior is limited by its intelligence and it can't make altruistic moral decisions—such as nobly sacrificing itself to save another. Animal companions, cavalier mounts, and purchased creatures (such as common horses and guard dogs) fall into this category. In general they're GM-controlled companions. You can direct them using the Handle Animal skill, but their specific behavior is up to the GM.However, as a PFS GM and player, I have yet seen any GM take on that task, usually delegating to players their ACs control and retaining veto power over anything the player wants to have the ACs do that is out of the norm.
Nope. They are spell effects. As such, unless the spell specifically stipulates otherwise, spell effects are controlled by the individual who cast the spell.
Nope. They are spell effects. As such, unless the spell specifically stipulates otherwise, spell effects are controlled by the individual who cast the spell.Which is how I understood summons are ran.Frankly, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, I find that view completely wrong. Does that mean that a paladin's mount or a druid's animal companion should be run by the GM as well, as such creatures are NPCs?
Good luck getting paladins and druids to give that up.
Derailing, but actually this WAS clarified in Ultimate Campaign. Animal Companions with <3 INT are actually in control of the GM:
Nonsentient Companions: A nonsentient companion (one with animal-level intelligence) is loyal to you in the way a well-trained dog is—the creature is conditioned to obey your commands, but its behavior is limited by its intelligence and it can't make altruistic moral decisions—such as nobly sacrificing itself to save another. Animal companions, cavalier mounts, and purchased creatures (such as common horses and guard dogs) fall into this category. In general they're GM-controlled companions. You can direct them using the Handle Animal skill, but their specific behavior is up to the GM.However, as a PFS GM and player, I have yet seen any GM take on that task, usually delegating to players their ACs control and retaining veto power over anything the player wants to have the ACs do that is out of the norm.
So, referring to one of my earlier post. You would say case 1) happens?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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Frankly, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, I find that view completely wrong. Does that mean that a paladin's mount or a druid's animal companion should be run by the GM as well, as such creatures are NPCs?
Good luck getting paladins and druids to give that up.
Derailing, but actually this WAS clarified in Ultimate Campaign. Animal Companions with <3 INT are actually in control of the GM:
Nonsentient Companions: A nonsentient companion (one with animal-level intelligence) is loyal to you in the way a well-trained dog is—the creature is conditioned to obey your commands, but its behavior is limited by its intelligence and it can't make altruistic moral decisions—such as nobly sacrificing itself to save another. Animal companions, cavalier mounts, and purchased creatures (such as common horses and guard dogs) fall into this category. In general they're GM-controlled companions. You can direct them using the Handle Animal skill, but their specific behavior is up to the GM.However, as a PFS GM and player, I have yet seen any GM take on that task, usually delegating to players their ACs control and retaining veto power over anything the player wants to have the ACs do that is out of the norm.
Thanks, Carlos, for the rule source. Much appreciated. Interestingly enough, the person who made the argument couldn't do such.
I would point out, however, that the rule you cite says,
"Animal companions, cavalier mounts, and purchased creatures..." none of which speaks to creatures summoned by the summon monster spells.
The spell itself says, in part:
"It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."
Nothing in that section indicates to me that the GM has any say in that matter. These creatures aren't companions.
*EDIT*: Ah, I see that Carlos (an excellent GM, I might add) was referring specifically to my point about paladin mounts or druid animal companions, not about summoned creatures. I would also add, that for me, while it may not entirely comport with PFS rules, as a GM, I would accept a printout stat block from the PRD as sufficient.
Mark
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Which is how I understood summons are ran.
It is not. My quote in no way mentions summoned creatures. Summons are, as per the spell, explicitly under PC control, especially when you summon something with a language. I will agree with the many other posters above that the onus is on you to provide the stats for the creatures.
Think also about animate dead. For the same reasons, the PLAYER needs to be able to provide the stats for their skeletons and zombies. I have a player in my homegame that raises undead all the time. He keeps a laptop with herolab handy because it allows him to quickly apply undead templates to creatures we find adventuring. I would expect the same or similar for a PFS player focused on animating dead.
For the record, I am in the camp that PRD-printed statblocks, or even the "Summoner" iPad app are valid sources for your stat blocks. But I respect a GM like Kristen to request official sources.
Edit: Ninja'd by like 3 people!!!
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So, referring to one of my earlier post. You would say case 1) happens?Nope. They are spell effects. As such, unless the spell specifically stipulates otherwise, spell effects are controlled by the individual who cast the spell.Which is how I understood summons are ran.Frankly, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, I find that view completely wrong. Does that mean that a paladin's mount or a druid's animal companion should be run by the GM as well, as such creatures are NPCs?
Good luck getting paladins and druids to give that up.
Derailing, but actually this WAS clarified in Ultimate Campaign. Animal Companions with <3 INT are actually in control of the GM:
Nonsentient Companions: A nonsentient companion (one with animal-level intelligence) is loyal to you in the way a well-trained dog is—the creature is conditioned to obey your commands, but its behavior is limited by its intelligence and it can't make altruistic moral decisions—such as nobly sacrificing itself to save another. Animal companions, cavalier mounts, and purchased creatures (such as common horses and guard dogs) fall into this category. In general they're GM-controlled companions. You can direct them using the Handle Animal skill, but their specific behavior is up to the GM.However, as a PFS GM and player, I have yet seen any GM take on that task, usually delegating to players their ACs control and retaining veto power over anything the player wants to have the ACs do that is out of the norm.
You'll get my answer to this question by reading my above bullet-point list.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Expect some table variation.
Here's what you can expect at my table: Let's say that, on Round 4, a player character casts summon monster III. The player has until his turn on Round 5 to decide what he wants to summon and where, and to get the stat block in hand.
If the player wants to refer to a stat block from some non-canon source, that's fine, so long as he can show me how he gets that stat block.
When I've had people playing summoners at my table, they often bring in critters with multiple templates. It's really helpful to have a fully-realized stat block for these critters. Todd Morgan is a big fan of a smartphone app that can add those templates automatically. That's great, so long as, if I ask you how your advanced celestial lion is getting its attack bonus, you can open up a legal source and walk me through it.
Expect some table variation.
Here's what you can expect at my table: Let's say that, on Round 4, a player character casts summon monster III. The player has until his turn on Round 5 to decide what he wants to summon and where, and to get the stat block in hand.
If the player wants to refer to a stat block from some non-canon source, that's fine, so long as he can show me how he gets that stat block.
When I've had people playing summoners at my table, they often bring in critters with multiple templates. It's really helpful to have a fully-realized stat block for these critters. Todd Morgan is a big fan of a smartphone app that can add those templates automatically. That's great, so long as, if I ask you how your advanced celestial lion is getting its attack bonus, you can open up a legal source and walk me through it.
So you would say case 2b) provided that player has stats from a legit source, but not necessarily a bestiary that they own.
What?!?! A player needs to own the Guide to play PFS?
"Legit source" means Bestiary that they bring to the table. d20srd, HeroLab, etc. aren't legitimate sources.
So you would say case 2b) provided that player has stats from a legit source, but not necessarily a bestiary that they own.
So PRD printouts do not count?
So that means you would be case 1).
I hope that's sarcasm. It would be pretty ridiculous to think a Player shouldn't own a free PDF of the rules for how the organized play campaign works.What?!?! A player needs to own the Guide to play PFS?
You bundled the Guide with the CRB. The CRB does cost money.
Inductive reasoning lead to another bad conclusion.|
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"Legit source" means Bestiary that they bring to the table. d20srd, HeroLab, etc. aren't legitimate sources.
So you would say case 2b) provided that player has stats from a legit source, but not necessarily a bestiary that they own.So PRD printouts do not count?
So that means you would be case 1).
And so what if he is?
What is your agenda in trying to categorize people's responses to your specific list?
Just realize that there WILL be table variation on this. Even though there shouldn't be. By rule, all GM's should be case 1).
@Andrew
So far, everyone seems to be case 1.
I'm seeing if there is a consensus to how this works. Since no one here can Word of God it outside their own games.
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I hope that's sarcasm. It would be pretty ridiculous to think a Player shouldn't own a free PDF of the rules for how the organized play campaign works.What?!?! A player needs to own the Guide to play PFS?
You bundled the Guide with the CRB. The CRB does cost money.
Inductive reasoning lead to another bad conclusion.
So obviously, then, you are extremely new to PFS. Otherwise you would have just known that it was free.
So now I understand why you are asking all these questions, and I can respond appropriately to you being new to the organized campaign.
The point of requiring you to own a source is two-fold.
1) It is so that if you are using an ability, spell, item, or something else for which a GM is unfamiliar, you can show them the source, and they can make an appropriate adjudication of that function with the rule for that item.
2) Pathfinder Society Organized Play is a marketing tool for Pathfinder and Paizo. As such, they expect that PFS will help them sell product and affect their bottom line in a positive fashion. So yes, they are trying to earn money off of you by offering a free organized play campaign, where you need to purchase their product to play it.
Point of Note:
Owning one source that gives you access to something, does not mean you can use everything it gives you access to without having to also own another source. Your original post is a great example of this. Just because you own the Core Rulebook, and the Core Rulebook has the summon monster and summon nature’s ally spells, does not mean that you don’t need to own another source to be able to actually cast those spells in organized play. You need stat blocks for those creatures.
Summoned creatures are a spell effect. You control your own spell (unless the spell specifically stipulates otherwise), and as such, you control the creatures you summon. If you cannot, because you do not have access to stat blocks, then you cannot cast those spells. I understand, as you’ve said many times, that you are willing to do the leg work and get those stat blocks. That is commendable. Just be aware though, of my above points about needing to own a resource.
Some GM’s will be more lenient than others on the rule of owning resources.
But you need to be aware, that because the rule exists, and the reasons for its existence, GM’s are well within their rights (and they would not be jerks for doing so) to disallow you the use of your spell if you did not actually bring a Bestiary in some legal form, to the table with you.
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@Andrew
So far, everyone seems to be case 1.
I'm seeing if there is a consensus to how this works. Since no one here can Word of God it outside their own games.
I would expect table variation.
If you plan to create a character that is dependent on summoning, and because Table Variation can and most likely will exist on this...
It behooves you to own the Bestiary in some legal form, and bring it with you.
Otherwise you may find at some table, that your character is nerfed because you weren't following the rules of the game.
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That is true but i doesnt say for how long :D
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.
No where in the description does it say it will for the duration of the spell ^^
You mean besides the duration of the summon monster spell?
If a GM tried to do that at a table, I wouldn't blame any player for walking. That is clearly a dick move.
Not if the player had publicly and explicitly handed over control of the creature to the GM, to be run as an NPC.
"Since this is now an NPC, to be run as I see fit...Dogs don't like loud noises, or the taste of decaying zombie flesh. There's a quiet spot in the next room, where it can lick its balls."
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Nothing like a new season refresh of the Guide to Organized play to bring out all the "I have to do/own what?" threads.
This whole thread, like all the others floating around right now, can be summed up like this: Own the damn books you use. If you don't you are putting your ability to play in the hands of a GM who may or may not enforce the rules.
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Interesting.
I've been playing PFS for almost a year now and I thought I understood the way the rules worked as far as what you needed to own and what you didn't. My interpretation was that as long as you were using the summons list from the CRB, that you did not need to own the book the summoned creature came from, because you were using a 'Core only' character. Of course, to be clear, I've never seen a creature summoned in PFS play (strange as that may sound) so I don't have any actual experience to draw on.
So after reading through the discussion in this thread, here's my question:
Is it *clearly the case* that in order to summon a creature from the CRB list that you must provide a legal copy of the stat block from the Bestiary (as opposed to printing out the stat block from the PRD)? Or is this somewhat of a grey area, where that is one reasonable interpretation, but it is worth getting an FAQ ruling on?
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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No more a dick move then the player expecting the GM to run their summoned creaturesThat is true but i doesnt say for how long :D
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.
No where in the description does it say it will for the duration of the spell ^^
You mean besides the duration of the summon monster spell?
If a GM tried to do that at a table, I wouldn't blame any player for walking. That is clearly a dick move.
Summoned monsters are NPCs controlled by the GM, they attack to the best of their ability as they see fit. The PC has no way to communicate with them or direct them unless the PC has taken additional spells and abilities that let him do that.
I won't use your parlance and say that "lazy GMs make players play them" but I will say that the GM allowing the player to direct his summons is a courtesy. Technically, unless the player tells them not to, a summon will run right in to the middle of those monsters, not knowing that the party mage is about to fireball them. Have you *ever* seen a player run his summon into the path of a party fireball because the summon didn't know it was coming?
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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That is true but i doesnt say for how long :D
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.
No where in the description does it say it will for the duration of the spell ^^
You mean besides the duration of the summon monster spell?
If a GM tried to do that at a table, I wouldn't blame any player for walking. That is clearly a dick move.
Not if the player had publicly and explicitly handed over control of the creature to the GM, to be run as an NPC.
"Since this is now an NPC, to be run as I see fit...Dogs don't like loud noises, or the taste of decaying zombie flesh. There's a quiet spot in the next room, where it can lick its balls."
Nope, the DM still has to obey the rules of the summon spell. By the way, Summons are compelled to serve and obey their summoners. Mounts and Companions are more or less volunteers. So if you say summons can go take a break because they feel like it, is that also how you play the bad guys companions and mounts?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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pH unbalanced, the PRD is not a legal source for players. More practically, the GM without an internet uplink can't check whether the stats you wrote down on a 3x5 index card for your summoned babau are accurate or complete.
(People in good fath miscopy things, or don't write out the complete description of some abilities.)
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I play a Summoner in PFS, and it would never occur to me to turn up without a Bestiary, even if I was also using a 3PP reference as well (I like the one from Four Winds, which adds the Augment Summoning and Celestial/Fiendish templates for you).
I'd still have the Bestiary in my bag, in case the stats needed to be checked.
The Bestiary is the proof that the 3PP carried out their conversion correctly, or that the info was cut/pasted or copied correctly from the online sources.
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No more a dick move then the player expecting the GM to run their summoned creaturesThat is true but i doesnt say for how long :D
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.
No where in the description does it say it will for the duration of the spell ^^
You mean besides the duration of the summon monster spell?
If a GM tried to do that at a table, I wouldn't blame any player for walking. That is clearly a dick move.
Summoned monsters are NPCs controlled by the GM, they attack to the best of their ability as they see fit. The PC has no way to communicate with them or direct them unless the PC has taken additional spells and abilities that let him do that.
I won't use your parlance and say that "lazy GMs make players play them" but I will say that the GM allowing the player to direct his summons is a courtesy. Technically, unless the player tells them not to, a summon will run right in to the middle of those monsters, not knowing that the party mage is about to fireball them. Have you *ever* seen a player run his summon into the path of a party fireball because the summon didn't know it was coming?
Summoned creatures are not NPCs. This brings a whole level of connotation that is not correct or appropriate.
Summoned creatures are a spell effect, and should be treated as such. Players are in control of their own spell effects unless the spell specifically stipulates otherwise.
In the case of summoned creatures, a GM would be well within their rights to adjudicate where the player may move the creature, or what creatures the summoned creature may attack or whatever, based on whether the character that summoned the creature can speak to it or not.
But this does not put the summoned creatures under GM control. This just means that the GM has the right to adjudicate the spell effects most appropriate to the circumstances.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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pH unbalanced, the PRD is not a legal source for players. More practically, the GM without an internet uplink can't check whether the stats you wrote down on a 3x5 index card for your summoned babau are accurate or complete.
(People in good fath miscopy things, or don't write out the complete description of some abilities.)
Then he shouldn't be running, since the rules say he needs to have access to the prd or the bestiary during game.
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Then he shouldn't be running, since the rules say he needs to have access to the prd or the bestiary during game.pH unbalanced, the PRD is not a legal source for players. More practically, the GM without an internet uplink can't check whether the stats you wrote down on a 3x5 index card for your summoned babau are accurate or complete.
(People in good fath miscopy things, or don't write out the complete description of some abilities.)
No, the rules say that the GM must have access to the needed stat blocks during the game.
If he prints out the stat blocks pertinent to the scenario, and shows up completely capable of running the scenario, then he doesn't need to bring the Bestiary in any form (or any other book) other than the CRB with him to the game.
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I've been playing PFS for almost a year now and I thought I understood the way the rules worked as far as what you needed to own and what you didn't. My interpretation was that as long as you were using the summons list from the CRB, that you did not need to own the book the summoned creature came from, because you were using a 'Core only' character. Of course, to be clear, I've never seen a creature summoned in PFS play (strange as that may sound) so I don't have any actual experience to draw on.
I think if you had witnessed a PC summon a creature, then announce he had no Bestiary, you'd have seen a great deal of eye-rolling and exasperated sighs. From the other players, never mind the GM.
[Kanye]"Hey, guys, y'all doin' great here an all, but lemme finish. I'm just about to slow this encounter down to a crawl, by droppin' in a buncha critters I have no legally verifiable source for."[/Kanye]
Respect your fellow players, and your GM, by making the game run smoother.
I've been playing PFS for almost a year now and I thought I understood the way the rules worked as far as what you needed to own and what you didn't. My interpretation was that as long as you were using the summons list from the CRB, that you did not need to own the book the summoned creature came from, because you were using a 'Core only' character. Of course, to be clear, I've never seen a creature summoned in PFS play (strange as that may sound) so I don't have any actual experience to draw on.I think if you had witnessed a PC summon a creature, then announce he had no Bestiary, you'd have seen a great deal of eye-rolling and exasperated sighs. From the other players, never mind the GM.
[Kanye]"Hey, guys, y'all doin' great here an all, but lemme finish. I'm just about to slow this encounter down to a crawl, by droppin' in a buncha critters I have no legally verifiable source for."[/Kanye]
Respect your fellow players, and your GM, by making the game run smoother.
The smooth running of the game is not a factor here.
Regardless of whether or not the players owns the bestiary, assume he is ready to play and has legit copies of the stat blocks.
The question is whether or not a PC needs to own a bestiary to use summon monster as per PFS ownership of rules to use them.
Other consideration simply do not apply to this question.
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I've been playing PFS for almost a year now and I thought I understood the way the rules worked as far as what you needed to own and what you didn't. My interpretation was that as long as you were using the summons list from the CRB, that you did not need to own the book the summoned creature came from, because you were using a 'Core only' character. Of course, to be clear, I've never seen a creature summoned in PFS play (strange as that may sound) so I don't have any actual experience to draw on.I think if you had witnessed a PC summon a creature, then announce he had no Bestiary, you'd have seen a great deal of eye-rolling and exasperated sighs. From the other players, never mind the GM.
[Kanye]"Hey, guys, y'all doin' great here an all, but lemme finish. I'm just about to slow this encounter down to a crawl, by droppin' in a buncha critters I have no legally verifiable source for."[/Kanye]
Respect your fellow players, and your GM, by making the game run smoother.
The smooth running of the game is not a factor here.
Regardless of whether or not the players owns the bestiary, assume he is ready to play and has legit copies of the stat blocks.
The question is whether or not a PC needs to own a bestiary to use summon monster as per PFS ownership of rules to use them.
Other consideration simply do not apply to this question.
At this point, my answer would be Yes, if you want to summon the creature you need to have the bestiary. No bestairy, no summons.
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1) The Bestiary I is no longer a part of the Core assumption.
2) Summon spells utilize content from the Bestiary I.
3) The player must provide a legal source to the GM for any non-core assumption material.
You must own and bring a copy of the bestiary I when using summon spells.
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If he has "legit copies of stat blocks" then he has the Bestiary. That is what we are trying to say.
To add to this:
The only "legit copies of stat blocks" is the Bestiary.
That being said, Table Variation may allow you at certain GM's tables to use 3rd party apps, PRD printouts, etc. without showing that you own the Bestiary.
But the rule says, you must own and have the source with you. In this case, the only legal source is the Bestiary.