Upgrading weapon and armor enchantments

[Victor Zajic]

David Bowles wrote:

The probably left it out on accident. This was the intent:

Relevant Link

Nope, it's in there:

"This
rule also applies to upgrading from a +1 item to a +2 item
and so on—you never have to repay the original cost or
sell your current item for half to upgrade to the next step.
Note that this only applies to items of the same kind—
you can’t, for example, turn your masterwork rapier into
a +1 greatsword. A mundane item can not be upgraded to
masterwork, nor can nonmagical aspects of equipment
be upgraded (such as the strength rating on a composite
bow)."

This is from page 23 of this PFS Guide.

And to pre-empt arguements, this says that you can upgrade items in PFS. Core Rule Book under Item Creations says that you can upgrade an item to include a quality like Flaming or Vorpal. Thus, in PFS you can add Flaming to a +1 weapon. Nowhere in the rules does it say that you can change/upgrade one special quality into a new special quality, like upgradeing Flaming to Flaming Burst.

[FLite]

Nefreet wrote:

A +1 Flaming Weapon isn't considered a "Named Item".

My point is that the people saying you can't upgrade +1 Flaming to +1 Flame burst are saying that it violates the princible of not being able to upgrade a named "thing" (flaming) to anouther named "thing" (flame burst).

My second point is that if you cannot upgrade a named thing ("flaming") to another named thing ("flame burst") then it is not at all clear to me that you can upgrade a named thing ("flaming") to another named thing ("flaming, throwing")

If adding "flaming" does not make the thing named, if it is just a +1, and you can always upgrade a +1 to +2, then clearly the rules on not upgrading named things do not apply, all you are doing is upgrading you longsword (+1, +1 (flaming)) to longsword (+1, +2 (flame burst.)

On the other hand if that is true, it raises the arguement that since you can always upgrade a +1 to +2, then I don't see any rules saying that you can't upgrade a longsword (+1, +1 (flaming)) to longsword (+1, +2 (Frost burst))

In other words, there is a great big gap in the rules, and at least 4 interpretations that can be used to fill it.

[Victor Zajic]

Named item rules have absolutely nothing to do with the arguement we're having, so I'm not going to touch on that point. Named items are only refering to things like Demon Armor or Rhino Hide Armor or Holy Avenger. Those rules aren't what prevent you from upgrading from flaming to flaming burst.

The rules explicitly allow you to add a new special property onto a weapon when you upgrade it. The example in the book is upgrading from a +1 longsword to a +2 vorpal longsword. It is super clear that you are allowed to do that.

But going from +1 flaming longsword to a +1 flaming burst longsword, or a +1 frost burst isn't just adding a new ability. You have to remove the old abilitiy first. That is where the difference lies. Nothing in the rules saws you can remove an ability when upgrading an item.

That's not a big gap with 4 interpretations. The book says you can add new abilities and pluses, and it doesn't say you can remove abilities. RAW that is the only valid interpritation.

[Nefreet]

We're obviously speaking different languages here. We also seem to interpret the same rules differently. That should be enough reason to petition for a FAQ clarification. But let me address some other things as well:

Victor Zajic wrote:

It's like you are only reading the parts of my posts that you want to read and ignoring the rest.

Just because I disagree with you does not mean that I haven't read your posts. You quoted a section from the Core Rulebook about adding new abilities to a magic item. In my copy, that's on page 553. It's listed under the "Magic Item Creation" section. That is important. I argue that this is not relevant to PFS, since crafting magic items is not allowed. You are extrapolating your quote to mean that this is how magic items are purchased. I find fault with that logic. If that is how magic items were meant to be purchased, the section on "Purchasing Magic Items", on page 460 of my copy, would say so. It does not. I have to therefore interpret this to mean that you cannot purchase an "upgrade" for a magic item. Only a magic item crafter has this option.

My interpretation is backed up by the quote from the Guide saying that "Items must be purchased at full value". That quote lines up perfectly with what the CRB tells us about purchasing magic items.

Now, obviously people aren't doing that. They're taking your interpretation and adding Flaming to their +1 Weapon. And I've done the same. It's a logical understanding, but it isn't supported by the rules for purchasing magic items.

So, let's assume the intention is that you can add Flaming to your +1 Weapon. We can now quote page 23 of the Guide again that says you can always "upgrade to the next step". The only example given is going from +1 to +2, but a perfectly reasonable interpretation could also be they meant upgrading Flaming to Flaming Burst. We simply disagree. So the reasonable course of action would be to ask for clarification. Both on the ability to add Flaming to a weapon to begin with, and the ability to upgrade Flaming to the next step.

Victor Zajic wrote:

You only answer to my qouting the core rule book was that item creation is not allowed, which was then answered by someone else, who said that you can purchase crafted items from shops and NPCs. You then replied that PFS doesn't say that you can pay to have items upgraded in PFS, to which the answer was someone qouted the section of the PFS guide that explicitly said you, in fact could do so.

Actually, the chain of events has been 1) I asked for clarification, 2) you quoted the CRB, 3) I told you that quote is not relevant, 4) you tell me it is, 5) we interpret the same rules differently.

Victor Zajic wrote:

For clarities sake, these are the untrue things you said, because you failed to actually research the claims you made ahead of time.

I'd appreciate a departure from the ad hominem attacks. Every single thing I have said is true. I spend considerable time researching questions before I post. Proper debate has been something I've been doing since Elementary school, and I'm 32 now. I have still not been able to find a quote from Mike Brock, John Compton, or anyone else in campaign leadership regarding this issue. You obviously have not either, else you would have posted something by now I'm sure.

Victor Zajic wrote:

The rules as written say you are allowed to upgrade pluses

...I agree...

Victor Zajic wrote:

and you are allowed to add special qualities.

...I disagree...

Victor Zajic wrote:

They do not say you can change or upgrade one special quality into another.

...I believe that is the intent of "upgrade to the next step"...

Victor Zajic wrote:

Without a PFS admin ruling saying that you can upgrade something like Flaming into Flaming burst, you can't do it.

And that is why I've posted this, and continue to post, in hopes that a FAQ is answered. As of right now, at least 20 others are seeking clarification as well. Have you hit the FAQ yet?

Also...

Spoiler:

No, I did not address everything you've said in your recent posts. That does not mean I did not read them. This post has already gotten long, and I'm running a game in 2 1/2 hours and I need to prep. I'll be back later.

[Victor Zajic]

PCs are not allowed to create magical items. NPC are required to use the magical items creation rules to order to sell you the magical items you created. Someone else already used this arguement to counter your claim that the magical item creation rules aren't relevant to PFS. Since you didn't answer them, at all, in the slightest, I assumed you were conceeding the point. Since, you know, that's how the formalized debate structure you claim to be familiar with works. Until you answer this arguement, your claim that PFS doesn't allow you to add special qualities to weapons and armor you are upgrading is completely moot.

This is my main problem to how you are going about this debate. You are not answering many points made in counter to your arguements. This gives the appearance that you are not reading all of what people are saying, and then just repeating your point that has been answered. If we're debating something, and you don't answer your opponents claims, they win that part of the arguement by default.

You have agreed with me that PFS allows upgrading magical items (or at least pluses). In order to see how upgrading pluses works, you have to reference the item creation rules, since it is covered no where else in any rulebook. Those rules explicitly allow you to add new special qualities. Just because PCs aren't allowed to take magical item creation feats doesn't mean that you get to ignore that section of the Core Rule Book.

Whatever you think the "intent" of "upgrading to the next step" is, in PFS we have to go with what the rules as written actually say. They say you can add pluses. They say you can add new special abilities. The do not say you can change once special ability into another special ability. This is not unclear, despite how much you want or say that it is. It allows exactly what it says it allows and nothing more. There is nothing written, in any of the rules books, that say you can change one special quality into another special quality, as a general rule(specific exceptions might apply).

We're not interpreting the same rules differently. I am saying you have to follow the rules as written, and you are saying that the rules allow something they don't say they allow.

You have said untrue things based on a lack of research.

"There are no rules in the Core Rulebook for upgrading a +1 Weapon to a +2 Weapon, or a +1 Cloak of Resistance to a +2 Cloak of Resistance, and yet the PFS houserule is that you can."

That statement was untrue. If you had researched the issue more, you would have found the rules in the CRB about upgrading magical items.
Item creations rules are what you use to determine the price of purchased magical items. PFS explicitly allows you to upgrade your magical items, and the item creation rules are where you find the rules on how to price said upgrades, PFS or non-PFS.

You have have said, multiple times, that PFS does not allow adding special abilities to magical weapons are armor. PFS explicitly allows you to upgrade items by paying the difference(you and others have qouted those rules), and the upgrading magical items rules explicitly allow adding new special abilities(I have qouted those rules). It's the exact situation that the rules use as an example.

Does hitting the FAQ button on the PFS even reach the PFS staff? My understanding is that FAQ button reaches the Rules Forum staff only. I've never seen any other threads in the PFS forum that have suggested hitting the FAQ button in order to get a PFS ruling. And the PFS staff rarely seems to make rulings on request, when the situation is already covered in the rules as written.

Giving the number of people who read these boards, 20 FAQ requests actually is a pretty insignificant number.

[Victor Zajic]

Jacob Dotter wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

The section you quoted specifically regards crafting magic items, which you cannot do in Society.

But if that's true that I never could have put Reliable on my +1 Musket to begin with, I'll happily refund my money. That hurts less than having to sell the whole thing at half price.

I just figured you could always add a magical enchantment to a +1 weapon or armor. Probably most of my characters will have to be rebuilt.

In PFS you are paying to have someone else do it not yourself. That is why there are fame requirements for max gold cost. Your reliable bonus added to a +1 musket is perfectly legal.

Here is the post about paying someone else to do the crafting for you.

Is my last post, I added the arguement that not being allowed to take item creation feats does not mean ignore the item creation rules entirely.

You have said that since the rules are titled "Magic Creation" they don't apply to the purchases, only to the magical item crafter. In PFS, the crafter is an NPC that you buy the item from. NPCs are not forbidden from taking item creation feats in PFS. Only PCs are. Since you must purchase items from a crafter (or someone they have sold or given the item to, ect), the item creation rules are relevant, since they provide the only guidelines in the CRB about how to price upgrading magical items.

[Fromper]

I really think this thread has reached the breaking point where further debate is pointless. Everyone's made their case. Now it's time for everyone to click the FAQ button on the first post of the thread and wait for Paizo staff to clarify the issue.