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This is weird - Golarion is a magical setting, so I usually don't have a problem with this. Undying lich-kings imprisoned in the bowels of massive towers? Neat! Abyssal contagion spreading across the land and consuming everything? Cool! A stone that transforms mortals into Gods? Ayyyy, no problem!
But behind all of these I always hold that there are basic forces and motivations that don't change. Crusaders seek to eliminate evil, rulers try to maintain power, and merchants seek to make money.
And pirates seek to plunder the vessels of those merchants.
This is where I'm having problems. The Shackles is absolutely the worst place where you could stick a large conglomeration of pirates, because there's virtually no piracy to be done!
Consider: There is only one known civilized land to the south of the Shackles - Sargava; which pays a significant portion of tribute to the Hurricane King so it's ships *don't* get attacked. While I can accept that some of the Pirate Lords may disobey this and sink the occasional Sargavan merchant ship, this must be the exception rather than the rule or else there would be no point in paying tribute.
To the West is the Arcadian Ocean, and there's nothing to suggest that any merchant traffic comes from there. To the East are headlands with no civilization, to the northeast are the Drowned Lands, which also lack any significant merchant activity. To the northwest is the Eye of Abendego. North of that is Mediogalti, whose lone town can't provide much in the way of trade. Only much further north do we get to the rich trade route servicing Korvoso and Magnimar.
There's the Inner Sea, of course, but to get to it pirates would first have to risk passing through the Arch of Aroden and the nearby naval base of Corentyn. That area is firmly under Chelaxian control and logic suggests that both military vessels and surveillance by flying devils would be the norm. It's very risky. It would make more sense to simply join one of the established pirate groups already operating in the Inner Sea.
It just doesn't make sense. What merchant would send his own ships through the Shackles to Sargava instead of just leasing space on a Sargavan cargo vessel? The AP provides a Rahadoumi merchant ship encounter in the first module, but it must be a stupid merchant who sent it, and stupid merchants don't stay merchants for long.
As a point of comparison, the pirates who dwelt in the Caribbean had three major trade routes in close proximity to them (America<->Europe, South America<->Europe, and South America<->America, to say nothing of the colonies in the Caribbean itself. But the Shackles don't even have any non-pirate colonies.
I love the S&S AP, and pirates in general, but this thought constantly gnaws at me. Can someone help me out here? Is there something I'm missing?
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The simple lack of people to enforce the kinds of laws that prevent piracy might help a bit in that. Plus the area around there isn't actually as large as it seems if you look at the global map.
They don't have to go that far to hit more major trade routes but they can't exactly build a base where they work.
if you read the portion of the Inner Sea World Guide that deals with southern Garund you will find many, many different civilizations you may flesh out to suit all your piracy needs, also you forget Senghor, Bloodcove, and the rest of the Mwangi Expanse as well as various independent trading companies and black market operations in Sargava that fall outside the Shackles-Sargava "Treaty" check it out:)
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Pathfinder isn't very good at all at simulating real world economics, which is fine since most of us aren't interested in playing Paychecks and Portfolios.
If find it easier though to turn such questions around. Rather than asking 'given what we know about Golorion would there be a lot merchant traffic in the Shackles?' ask 'Given that there is enough merchant traffic in the Shackles to support large numbers of Pirates what are some reasons for it being there?'
Plausible reasons I have come up with are:
Sargavan/Mwangi Expanse trade is very valuable. Enough that even if many ships are loss, a few ships getting through can make a fortune.
Sargavan Ships might have less trouble with Shackles Pirates but more trouble with other powers, particularly Cheliax. If the Sargava to Cheliax route is particularly valuable, a Rahadoumi merchant ship might be the very best choice.
If it helps any, historically the East India trade was profitable enough that a single successful voyage could make quite a fortune and the Caribbean pirates were mostly focused on one trade route: Spanish treasure ships carrying plundered gold and silver back to Spain.
We discussed this in my game group as well, and agreed on three possible solutions:
a) That Cheliax has other colonies further south. Saragava has broken free, but the rest of their southern colonies still exist, and trade between them and the mainland is booming.
b) The Mwangi Expanse is filled with wonderous treasures. Adventures and Pathfinder expeditions go in, and some of them come back with both magical high-value loot, and more mundane trading goods. These goods fetch a high price in the civilised areas around the Inner Sea, but are pretty common in Bloodcove, Senghor etc. Thus it makes sense that the PC's can sell 3 plunder points for 3000 gold, since they are trading in the very area where these goods are common. But since such a plunder point sells for 10.000 in the Inner Sea, it's worth the investment and the potential loss of ships (at 10.000 gp each) to take the risks.
c) There could be a verions of the triangle trade going on. Mwangi slaves across the Acadian Ocean, who knows what exotic goods from there to the Inner Sea, and cheap baubles to the natives in Mwangi.
Indeed. Ships can't go straight across the Arcadian Ocean to get to the colonies -- they have to head north or south to avoid the shattered wreck of Azlant. (Which is itself a potential, albeit enormously risky, target for trade or treasure.)
The Linnorm Kingdoms presumably round the isles north to get to Valenhall, but it's entirely possible that ships from Cheliax and Andoran have to get close enough to the Shackles to be worth raiding from there.
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Thanks BzAli, I think your solution makes the most sense. If Cheliax had more colonies to the south that were not free like Sargava then that would make for a stronger trade route. It would also reinforce Cheliax's hatred of and desire to remove the pirates of the Shackles.
Hopefully at some point Paizo will release a sourcebook or gazeteer for Garund, or else publicly state that they will not develop it and leave it to players to populate it.
@Dave Justus: I'm not asking for ledgers, and I'm also not interested in playing Paychecks and Portfolios. But I do want a world that is, at least in its broad strokes, consistent and understandable. I hadn't considered the interaction between Sargavan trade and Cheliax, that does provide an interesting motivation for Rahadoumi involvement.
@captain yesterday: I don't recall there being much in the Inner Sea World Guide about southern Garund, but I'll have another look. You make a good point about black market operations and smuggling - given the richness of the Mwangi expanse, I can definitely see that being a lucrative trade.
Thanks everybody for all your suggestions!
there isn't a ton on Southern Garund in ISWG but enough to get the ole' brain a-workin':) i myself would've preferred more info on this part of the world as well. but you gotta work with what you have:) hope it works out for you:)
There have been other treads about this. My take is definitely that there is extensive trade with southern Garund. It makes the most sense and need least changes to the world.
Early on, it seemed to me that a lot of the pirates actually went north of the Eye of Abendego to raid, only to retreat back into the Shackles to evade capture.
It was also suggested earlier that the main trade route to Tian ran around the south tip of Garund and up the west coast to reach the Inner Sea from the west. This route was preferred because it bypassed the undead and the slave raiders who frequent the waters to the east. That would generate a huge amount of additional shipping to plunder above and beyond that coming directly from Sargava and the Mwangi Expanse.
Me, I have trouble with how poorly the pirate crews are treated. Real world sailors went pirate specifically because they wanted to get away from that kind of treatment!
Yeah....one pirate crew, that of the "Wormwood". Actually conceived to make the players want to rebel.
Well, that treatment depends very much on the crew and pirate. Chinese and Arabian pirates worked differently and with utter cruelty, among each other and even twoards the officers. Besides, pirates in general being a cruel lot (not in movies, but in RL) so a captain might lead by example or through utter shock/terror.
Nevermind, some onboard discipline is required in the first place - which does not mean I condone Harrigan's ways, but having sailed on tall ships, coordination and teamwork is absolutely necessary and in heavy weather, the only way to survive, and given a bunch of part-time renegades and rebels, potential slackers and never-do-wells.....
... and actually, Harrigan's regime is not as bad as that practised by RL navies (have a look at HMS Hermione, if you want ). Never mind the free drinks (ahem) and the fact that Harrigan is actually rather capable of actually catching plunder ?
Never even ask about merchant discipline, who pretty much ran their own boat, often under even more shocking circumstance. Or life on shore which would/could be even more cruel, with less financial rewards.
@jeven the vikings "raided" near Constantinople/Byzanz from their holdings in Russia, via the none-too-epic Black Sea, and along the coastline
Don't forget that Tian sailors or trade with Tian could also sail south of the Acadian horn. The other thing to consider is that the Shackles is the pirate haven not necessarily where they do business. If feels like the Caribbean but it functions like Madagascar. A far a way pirate port that forces foreign navies to spend the cash to sail around the horn of Africa before getting close.
Oh don't forget the nation of Droon on the SW coast of Garund. All sorts of fun ensue when you imagine a nation of Lizardfolk who ride dinosuars.
Reference adventure background in the Second Chapter of this AP to see a reference to what occurs regarding trade in southern Garund.
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If feels like the Caribbean but it functions like Madagascar. A far a way pirate port that forces foreign navies to spend the cash to sail around the horn of Africa before getting close.
Don't work at home ? that might prove more difficult for smaller ships ( will they carry enough foodstuff for the crew ? ).... I'd differentiate between small scale local brigands robbing the coastal trade, and larger crew sailing afar and around half a continent on bigger ships.
Although even the later might attack small coasters simply to stock up on provisions. The man problem with the Shackles is, that the region is too small to not simply avoid by sailing around it. No real enforced gaps like north of Cuba along the Floridan coast, the narrow straits in the Windward Isles or between Cuba and Hispaniola whereone could reasonably lurk to catch the merchant trait forced through this gaps.
With the Shackles : sail west for 300 miles (easily done) and be far out in open offshore waters... where even a slow merchant will be hard to catch. The geography is just suboptimal.
But still, it begs the question whether any player will actually wonder about the traderoutes or simply immerse oneself in being piratish....
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I looked at the Inner Sea Guide regarding the nature of Azlant islands and their dangers. The impression is that given the choice between Aboleths, monsters, and all sorts of terrifying things in the open Acadian Ocean people pick pirates. Better the devil you know.
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Also sedentary pirates like most organized crime ventures eventually turn to politics, corruption and protection rackets. Like the current agreement with Sargava to not raid their ships. Barbary pirates survived for decades by only pillaging ships from countries and companies that would not pay tribute. America's first foreign war was because Jefferson did not want to pay the extortion money. So he created the Navy/Marines to fight back against the pirates. Most European countries just paid the money and were annoyed that we went all cowboy and caused trouble.
This sort of Pirate extortion seems a great way to go for the Shackles. It also sets up a power struggle between bloated entrenched pirate lords like Kerdak and upstart "honest pirates" earning plunder by the sweat of their brow.
It also sets up a power struggle between bloated entrenched pirate lords like Kerdak and upstart "honest pirates" earning plunder by the sweat of their brow.
"... and the strength of their backs." Don't forget that part of the speech! ;D
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The World Guide says the pirates generally raid north of the Eye and retreat back south when pursued. It specifically mentions raiding around the Arch. This area is likely to be heavily patrolled by warships but the pickings will be good too. And they have the whole coast of Cheliax, Nidal, and Varisia to stalk for prey. There are plenty of immoral or corrupt cities to trade with and resupply. Heck, many might make a fair coin doing semi-honest trade!
Of course, Rahadoum stands out as an obvious target. Although she tries to maintain a "blockade" across invasion routes (and good luck with that considering the expanse and the constant storms being spun off from the Eye), that can't leave many warships to patrol that long shoreline.
The ability to use the Eye as both speed-enhancer and a defense makes that northern raiding seem very attractive to me.
For trade past the Shackles, the wealth of the Mwangi expanse funnels through Bloodcove. It must be the Panama City of Golarion. Sack that city and you will have a literal King's Ransom. They must ship it out somehow. I suspect an ethical "mercenary freebooter" could make a nice price escorting treasure ships. Just make sure you pick the right one to hire - if the escort pulls into harbor suspiciously rich while claiming his charge was sunk by a storm, who's to know the truth?
Crown's End is a notorious smugglers town. They must be smuggling with somebody. And, while Cheliax and Sargrave don't get along politically, I've never known the feuds of Kings to deter a merchant's lust for profit. Considering that Sargravian luxuries were known in Cheliax but are now likely very rare, they must command a huge price. One successful trip would yield profits to pay off a merchant's ship. The journey is much shorter, and likely LESS dangerous than a trip to India was in our world. Temptation enough for a greedy or desperate man? Most pirates won't kill you - they will hold you for ransom. A lost gamble isn't the end of the world, and trading a cargo of Cheliaxian weapons for a hold full of genuine dinosaur bones will yield enough profit from Nidal's necromancers to pay for three ships. Good odds.
Of course that's only if you are smart enough to risk the pirates and not try to sail three hundred miles out to sea. A pirate can be out-sailed, evaded, and even (sometimes) bargained with. At worst he'll hold you for an expensive tropical vacation. Getting sunk by Dragon Turtles, Kraken, or the other (worse) horrors of the deep oceans is PERMANENT. You can try it if you want, but you have to come to shore sometime; you can't sell to kraken. I'll get you then.
It's just supply and demand. If goods from Mwangi/Sargrave are rarer, that makes them more valuable. That means more people trying to provide them. As an American, I have decades of experience watching our "War on Drugs" and the effects of supply and demand. If the most powerful Navy in the history of the world can't stop anyone from being able to buy any drug they want in any city within 15 minutes, how much hope do a bunch of ratty pirates and a storm have?
It also sets up a power struggle between bloated entrenched pirate lords like Kerdak and upstart "honest pirates" earning plunder by the sweat of their brow."... and the strength of their backs." Don't forget that part of the speech! ;D
Noted!!!
It also sets up a power struggle between bloated entrenched pirate lords like Kerdak and upstart "honest pirates" earning plunder by the sweat of their brow."... and the strength of their backs." Don't forget that part of the speech! ;D
Well its not like they can do it by dealing with Eldrich creatures . . . oh wait.