Damn! There are so many funny moments with my party I could monopolize this thread. There was not one session that didn't have something that left us laughing hysterically.

Note: Why do we need spoilers? This is the ROTRL forum. If you are playing, this forum is one giant spoiler. Leave now.

Opening Fight:

For this idea, I think the intro to Vecna Lives! is a better plan. Give the PCs a group of pregen high-level characters. Maybe even the iconic Pathfinder heroes. Set them a one-shot adventure where they confront a lieutenant of the BBEG trying to save the world from apocalypse and get brutally slaughtered in the process.
Then collect the dead guys sheets and hand the characters back theirs. It's time to start the adventure in your post-apoc setting. The characters look down at their little 1st level character who are going to challenge a BBEG who's lieutenant just toasted these high-level, iconic heroes as if it was easy. And since the BBEG won and took over most of the world, he's going to be even stronger.
The players will feel something they rarely feel in a game; genuine dread.

Not actually. The AGM (Assistant GM) is the one who announces the person up and the person on deck. The Gm is still the one who initiates the timer by saying "Morgen, go.". That way the player's round starts when the GM is ready. When the GM decides the player's round is over, they say "Captain, who's next?"

Example:
The players come out of a bar after a night of gaining trust-points expecting to get their weapons out of the weapons locker. They see that the locker-guards are dead and the zombie/skeleton horde that did it turns on them.
Everybody rolls initiative and the AGM writes them down and arranges them while the GM sets up the monsters.
GM: Ready. Ron, who is first?
Ron: Buck's Paly is first. Jenny's inquisitor is on deck.
GM: Buck, what do you do?
Buck: I say, "Everybody! Get your weapons! I'll try to hold them." I step up to here (moves figure) and prepare to attack the first beasty that comes into range with my armor-spikes.
GM: OK. Ron, 25xps for Buck for good Paladin roleplaying and to compensate him for the dirt-nap he's about to take. (Ron makes a note) Who's next?
Ron: Jenny's inquisitor is up, my Magus is on Deck.
GM: Jenny, go.
Jenny: Is the door of the weapon shed open?
GM: Yes, it looks like it was bashed off it's hinges by zombies but..Make a perception check. (Success) You can dimly see that there are individual lockers inside and those seem closed. You have ten seconds, what do you do?
Jenny: (Flips through papers) I think I have a spell...
GM: 6, 5, 4...
Jenny: I rush over to my locker and get my weapons out!
GM: It takes a move action to get over there and a standard action to open your locker. Next round you can ready one weapon as a move action or take a full round action to get all your weapons out. Ron, who's next?
Ron: I'm up with my Magus, Vanessa is on deck with her Bard.
GM: Buck, help Vanessa figure out what she wants to do with her Bard (she being new). Ron, what do you do?

That is an actual example from our last game. It may seem that people would feel rushed, but they actually felt excited and reacted more as their character's would - rather than trying to figure every edge.

FYI: In case you're curious... The highlights included the Magus deciding to just grab his sword and rush back to guard the Paladin's flank. It cost him a nasty wound but kept the Paly from being flanked and dropped by a swarm in one round. The Inquisitor's Iron Grenade and the Alchemist's bombs turned the tide of the fight. And the Paly got to use his half-orc ferocity to kill the Zombie that was chewing on the Bard. Then he took a mud-nap - thanks to the Magus' Hydro-Spray Thingy spell (what does a Paladin know?). Just as well, though; it put out the fire on his face.

We have a big group, but our combats have been speeded up immensely by these rules:

1. A player assistant keeps track of initiatives freeing the GM to handle things.
2. The AGM announces, "It's Buck's turn to act. Jenny is on deck." The person on deck should be deciding their action.
3. GM says, "Buck, go." You have 10 seconds to state your action. Failure means you wait. It can then take as long as it takes for your action to be resolved.
4. If you don't know what your spell does without looking it up, you can't cast it. Learn your character; it's not too much to ask. The GM has to learn all kinds of spells and abilities for the bad guys - you can't learn the six spells you cast most often in combat?

The most important of these is the "On deck". When a person hears they are "on deck" they yank their attention back from playing on their phone, talking about Dr Who, dicking the dog, or whatever distraction they have been doing - before it's actually their turn to act! It's awesome. Really.

I would just add: Don't give up the dwarf! It's a fun, under-played, core race. It's got some fine abilities that will likely stand you in good stead and it's not like you're going to be scrapping for feats. Mostly, though, it's that you really have the character personality and fluff worked out and you seem like you will really have fun playing him. That's way more important than any min-maxing - especially since you are more concerned with having a good role-play experience with your party than with being an uber-all-star.

I like the "Firstmate" idea. He could be great in that role. The Firstmate is the ship's disciplinarian (among other things) and your character would be scary-good at that. If you have a problem, you can talk to the Firstmate; he's a fine fellow and will try to help you if he can. But if you screw-up, he's your worst nightmare. If you screw-up really bad - show cowardice in battle, betray a comrade, hold out on loot, etc. - you may not live to be keel-hauled. Probably won't, in point-of-fact.

There is definitely a generation gap. Most CRPGs do away with body-looting as much as possible because "who wants to click on corpses over and over?" It's just assumed you search the bodies and take the goodies. I turn on "auto-looting" on every game that lets me. Likewise, when a room has a clue, it's generally right in the middle with a big yellow exclamation point over it (or it's outlined in red). In CRPGs, once the fight is over the only thing you need to do is find the next room.

You are throwing the Grand-daddy of RPGs at people that haven't even been exposed to it's grandchild's pet. I really don't blame them for not getting it. There's a reason WOTC went for video-gamey.

My advice would be to let the NPC be the looter/searcher while the players be Archer (cartoon) or Zap Branigann. They charge ahead and she sighs and searches the bodies. It's just that for such a smart gal, she really needs help figuring things out. "Hey Guys! I just found this ring on the body. It doesn't look like something Ogres would make. What do you think?" or "Hey Guys! Look at this pile of papers over here. Do you suppose they may say something about where the captive is being held?" If she has to do all the searching, let it take her a while. If the players say anything, she can snap, "If you want it to go faster, you could help. I'm not your maid."

Another way to train them would be to do a couple sessions of a simple hack-and-slash with the simplest system you can find. Something where all you do is check the door for traps, kick it open, kill the improbable beasties inside, loot the bodies, deal with whatever fountain/altar/magical 'thingy' is in the room, search for secret doors, and move on. Essentially the 1st edition games I played with my friends 30 years ago. Let's face it: That's where we learned the basics of surviving in a dungeon. Paranoia training 101.
Tell them you just want to do a few sessions of this for nostalgia or to test out the system. Then go back to Pathfinder.

Last thought: Try putting special abilities/attacks/spells on cards. It might make it easier for the players to keep track of.

Random thoughts:

Barbarian Pirate is a completely do-able trope. There are many stories of pirates going into rages in battle and fighting like madmen - even Captains. Most of those weren't very nice men, though.

Adding the Dwarf part makes it particularly interesting. I can't wait to hear his back-story and motivation! "Stormbeard" is an inspired name.

The classic advice for traits is to pick something that fits your backstory. The problem with that advice is that most traits that "fit" are redundant and give nothing you don't already have. I think better advice is to pick a trait for where you see yourself being in the future. Do you want to be Captain? Then consider Inspired Leader and plan to take the Leadership Feat (It was created for this path). Do you see yourself as the party's point man on jungle expeditions? Then take a more traditional Barbarian trait - geared toward tropical jungles. The other characters are very "water" oriented, but the player guide (I haven't played the path yet) says that there are likely to be jungles, ruins, and pirate treasures too. It would be a shame if the whole party ended up flopping around like Halibut every time they step off the boat.

It wouldn't hurt to think about what roll you want to play on the ship. "Captain" as previously mentioned, is one, but there are many others. "Artillerist"; Barbarians aren't noted for their love of siege engines, but Dwarves certainly are. "Navigator", "Helmsman", or even "Quartermaster" are all fun choices. "I lay around and get drunk and dare people to say anything." may sound like fun, but everybody else is getting to roll dice and participate in the sea chases. You will have more fun if you have a job. An example of how role-playing differs from real-life.

" I'm personally vetoing an alchemist, since that's what I'm most known for playing." - That's too bad. A crazy bomb-throwing alchemist who likes to fire the ship's cannon until the other ship gets close and then lobs explosives with a fine disregard for friend or foe was one of my favorite concept-characters for S&S. I was gonna give him the ships chirugeon trait. "Hold still. This is gonna hurt. A lot."

The character I'm going to be playing is a Druid who is one of the "Kuru" people - the natives of the islands. They have been driven to the fringe islands by the freebooters and turned into degenerate cannibals by the worship of the "Blood Queen". Only a few tribes remain free of her enslavement to remember the old ways. He is from one of those tribes and his goal in life is to free his people from the "False God".
I'm using Maori culture, weapons, and images for his design.

For you, I need to know what type of character you are interested in? You have a melee, a magic, and a support so far so you are pretty open. You want to lob spells or hit stuff?

The World Guide says the pirates generally raid north of the Eye and retreat back south when pursued. It specifically mentions raiding around the Arch. This area is likely to be heavily patrolled by warships but the pickings will be good too. And they have the whole coast of Cheliax, Nidal, and Varisia to stalk for prey. There are plenty of immoral or corrupt cities to trade with and resupply. Heck, many might make a fair coin doing semi-honest trade!
Of course, Rahadoum stands out as an obvious target. Although she tries to maintain a "blockade" across invasion routes (and good luck with that considering the expanse and the constant storms being spun off from the Eye), that can't leave many warships to patrol that long shoreline.
The ability to use the Eye as both speed-enhancer and a defense makes that northern raiding seem very attractive to me.

For trade past the Shackles, the wealth of the Mwangi expanse funnels through Bloodcove. It must be the Panama City of Golarion. Sack that city and you will have a literal King's Ransom. They must ship it out somehow. I suspect an ethical "mercenary freebooter" could make a nice price escorting treasure ships. Just make sure you pick the right one to hire - if the escort pulls into harbor suspiciously rich while claiming his charge was sunk by a storm, who's to know the truth?
Crown's End is a notorious smugglers town. They must be smuggling with somebody. And, while Cheliax and Sargrave don't get along politically, I've never known the feuds of Kings to deter a merchant's lust for profit. Considering that Sargravian luxuries were known in Cheliax but are now likely very rare, they must command a huge price. One successful trip would yield profits to pay off a merchant's ship. The journey is much shorter, and likely LESS dangerous than a trip to India was in our world. Temptation enough for a greedy or desperate man? Most pirates won't kill you - they will hold you for ransom. A lost gamble isn't the end of the world, and trading a cargo of Cheliaxian weapons for a hold full of genuine dinosaur bones will yield enough profit from Nidal's necromancers to pay for three ships. Good odds.

Of course that's only if you are smart enough to risk the pirates and not try to sail three hundred miles out to sea. A pirate can be out-sailed, evaded, and even (sometimes) bargained with. At worst he'll hold you for an expensive tropical vacation. Getting sunk by Dragon Turtles, Kraken, or the other (worse) horrors of the deep oceans is PERMANENT. You can try it if you want, but you have to come to shore sometime; you can't sell to kraken. I'll get you then.

It's just supply and demand. If goods from Mwangi/Sargrave are rarer, that makes them more valuable. That means more people trying to provide them. As an American, I have decades of experience watching our "War on Drugs" and the effects of supply and demand. If the most powerful Navy in the history of the world can't stop anyone from being able to buy any drug they want in any city within 15 minutes, how much hope do a bunch of ratty pirates and a storm have?

I understand completely.

I was starting a RoTL game and, since it was my first time playing or running Pathfinder (and because I couldn't afford all the books in one shot), I said "Core Races only, please." Two of the players were rolling up sister half-elfs. They spotted a picture of a drow online and fell in love. "We want to be half-drow!"
"There are no half drow." I replied. "And Drow are irredeemably evil in Golarion. No one on the surface has ever seen one. No one would even have a clue what they are."
"Please, please, please." They countered.
"You want to look that way, you don't care about abilities?" I said. "OK. You can be half-drow sisters. We will invent an improbable back story for why you aren't dead. You just use the standard half-elf race template - no Drow abilities. OK?"

They were fine with that. Players sometimes want to play what they want regardless of the stats. If there is a way to make that work, it's usually best to try to work it in. If there is crazy-character min-maxing going on, just talk to the player about why they want to play that character. If it's just unbalanced "uber-dome", place restrictions. You don't have to allow every book and every supplement - they are supposed to be a buffet; don't try to eat everything.

FYI: I did a lot of tap-dancing and hand waving to explain why the sisters aren't burned on site. The humans of Varisia don't know what a Drow is. They DO know what half-elves are. And they DO know that the people of the southern continent often have very dark skins. The assumption is obvious, and as long as the sisters avoid elven and dwarven lands, they get treated more as curiosities than as threats.

I think the Clarifications should be able to help us houserule any inconsistencies. Thank you to everyone for your help. I think my GM is inclined to a lienient interpretation. He has indicated that he feels "armor spikes" are "wielded" by wearing the armor and thus threatens all the squares adjacent all the time without requiring hands. Kicking, kneeing, elbowing, and doing the hula with hip-spikes would all be included in the description of "attacking" with the armor spikes. Thus I could use one AoO to hip-check a goblin that provokes an AoO next to me as well as use my Bardiche against another that tries to move up. As long as I don't use more AoOs than my Combat Reflexes give me (4 in this case) I can use any "wielded" weapon without penalty - just not more than 1 at any time against any opponent - and no opponent can be attacked more than once for moving. If, however, a Goblin ran up to me and tried to trip me he could be attacked by the reach weapon as he moved up and then be attacked with the groin-spike as he tries to trip me, since those are separate "provocations".

Again, thanks for your help, everyone.

Excellent Answer, Isil-zha. Thank you. It looks like "Armor Spikes" are the way the system represents the old-style spiked gauntlets; it just doesn't define where the spikes are - hands, elbows, belly button, or buttocks (awkward). They seem even more useful, too. As the zombie advances on me, he triggers an AoO with my bardiche for moving from a threatened square to adjacent to me. He generates no more, no matter how many threatened squares he moves through (this represents my quick swipe at him as he runs in). If, however, he tries to grapple me, that provokes a second AoO from my spiked cod-piece (Since I have 4 AoOs from Combat reflexes). Unfortunately, that counts as a secondary weapon and I take the penalties for that. When my turn to act comes, I can use the spikes on my bottom to attack while grappled - presumably bouncing up and down vigorously. ;)
Do I understand these rules correctly?

Indeed. The combat reflexes gives multiple AoOs and I was concerned with opponents that try to move past - thus exiting more than one threatened square. Of course adjacent squares aren't actually threatened by the polearm, so the "maypole effect" comes into play. My interpretation - from what I read - is that you can't change your threatened squares in mid-round; even with a free action. My GM disagrees, arguing from both a "reality check" standpoint as well as pointing out that combat reflexes needs to have some redeeming feature to make it worth taking, and that seems like a fair one.
Emotionally, I totally agree with him, I just wondered what the Rule interpretation was in case I play with more of a rule-lawyer GM in the future.

Blackbloodtroll: I had not considered the "slots" thing. I come to Pathfinder from 2nd edition and spiked gauntlets were an industry standard. Everybody wears gauntlets to fight - at least everybody who wants to fight more than once - so wield some spikes on the knuckles. It gives you a back up weapon if you get disarmed, and looks cool as hell on your character picture. I didn't even think about how they do slots now. Thank you for clarifying that.

This is a question about a FAQ thread that confused me:

Specifically: Can a fighter with a polearm and spiked gauntlets that has "combat reflexes" use both for AoOs on the same round? The mook makes it past the bardiche but instead of stopping to engage, tries to run past to hit the squishies. He gets a punch in the snoot for his trouble.

My understanding of the thread was that the designers said "no". You pick your weapon and that's your AoO for the round. If the Goblins get inside that polearm, they can dance around you like a maypole. My GM says that's silly: Taking a hand off your weapon is a free action so punch the little bastards to your heart's content. At worst, he says, maybe it costs you two AoOs to punch him.

I'm happy with his interpretation, but I just want to know if I misunderstood the thread. What is the official rule?
Thanks.

It's up to you how close she is to releasing Malfeshnekor, but I advise against it. With his abilities and intelligence, Malfy could easily take over any nearby Goblin tribe and turn them into a raging terror. Look at the Greater Barghest abilities designed just to buff Goblins. Then add his DR 10/Magic and most of the garrison won't even be able to touch him. With Nualia helping and controlling him (remember that her God sent her here, so she will have some way to control it) it will be a massacre.

It is bad enough to sick the whole crew on them without tossing in a Greater Barghest as well. Nualia is smart enough to know her cover is blown here and she doesn't have any more time. In her rage, I see her striking at the characters. If she kills them all, she might return to trying to release Malfy. Otherwise, she will retreat and try something else. She can always return with more help later; as far as she knows, Malfy aint going anywhere.

Take note of the specifics of the spells they plan to use to excavate the cliff. Especially the volume effected and whether it's earth or stone. Also keep in mind that they will have to excavate a huge semi-circle of cliff way back and all the way down to the water line to keep the goblins from being able to rebuild the bridge. At their level, that is likely to take many days worth of spells. And even then, nothing stops the goblins from building the bridge closer to the water with a lift to Thisletop. That's an even better defensive arrangement: Unless the characters can fly, they will have to climb the sides of the island to assault it.

If you point out that goblins climb fairly well and can easily swim across (if they wait until the Bunyip is out), the characters should conclude that the only way to "starve them out" is to lay siege. In that case, Nualia just might decide to let them protect her and redouble her efforts to release Malfy. She has plenty of supplies and the players won't be able to take her by surprise - they burned the bloody bridge! Malfy can levitate and use mass invisibilty and the Yeth hounds fly. She won't have any trouble mopping the floor with the "besiegers" once Malfy is out.

Ultimately it's your choice, but I see her wanting to kill the characters if she can and offer them to Lamashtu. Only if they make that too difficult (perhaps by stationing a small army with them on the cliff) AND make it obvious that they aren't planning an assault (by using their spells to excavate the cliff), will she work to release Malfy first. if that happens, make sure her inevitable assault with the Barghest and enhanced goblins, et al. concentrates of killing the innocent guardsmen that trusted them. Be sure to describe how their weapons don't even scratch the demon while it rips them to shreds. Let the players retreat when they know they're beaten, but let the screams of the people they let down with their cowerdice echo around them while they do.
Hmmm...Hunting down the Barghest before it can rally a new goblin tribe and slaying it could be a good side adventure. They will need to do something to repair their reputations in Sandpoint after a debacle like that. You may chose to have Nualia head down to magnimar for supplies (or whatever) while Malfy scrounges up an army - giving the characters a brief window to take him out.

From a Blackjack Dealer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ykrTe0N_Sw

If I were Nualia, I would counter-attack the players. She can easily throw together a raft and lower it down the far side of the island with ropes. She cares nothing at all for the goblins, and will happily use them as cannon fodder. With Lyrai's spells she can easily launch the boat down the coast at night. Then she puts in at a beach and circles back to Thistletop intending to ambush the players and trap them against the cliff. With 8 goblin fodder, Orik, Lyrie, Nualia, and three Yeth hounds (she won't leave the temple guards behind - the players have already proved how dangerous they are), the party is in for one hell of a fight. Smart PCs will hopefully spot the ambush (goblins aren't great at discipline) and retreat. They can try a fighting retreat and might be able to thin the goblins out, but Orik's and Nualia's bows and Lyrie's spells, not to mention divebombing Yeth Hounds are likely to make that a losing proposition.
If they retreat to Sandpoint, or if they have already abandoned Thistletop assuming "their job is done", Nualia will use her small force to make a revenge raid on Sandpoint but I don't see her fighting to the death, and Orik isn't suicidal either. Lyrie is likely to be pretty pissed since it's obvious by now that Tsuto isn't coming back. Feel free to add in a few more goblin "hunters" and "foragers" that Nualia picks up along the way so that the forces Hemlock got from Magnimar will be critical to holding off the assault and giving the players a chance to deal with the bad guys. The players are likely to REALLY hate the Yeth hounds by the time this is over and feel some satisfaction each time they kill one.
If Nualia survives (likely) see the section of the module for what she does next. Orik will probably abandon her cause at the first opportunity - the second Sandpoint raid is the last straw for him. If players encounter him in Magnimar during the Skinsaw Massacre, and don't immediately attack him, he could be a good source of information and clues about what Nualia is up to.

Seriously, the module gave them plenty of clues that Nualia is the real danger. If they don't pick up on that, hammer them.

BTW: Thistletop island is magically worked stone. Most excavation spells won't effect it. It was the head of a giant war-statue.

Personally, I don't like the blogger's assumptions. I don't assume that every "normal" is a one trick pony; super-optimized for one (and only one) task. Bill Gates can build companies AND ski. He might even take martial arts. For all I know he might even be able to walk and chew gum without hurting himself.
Even Olympic athletes have hobbies.

That let's my NPCs be a little higher level than the Blogger's assumptions. Higher level craftsmen don't just keep getting better at doing one thing, they learn how to do more things well. "I just made a masterwork shortsword!" "Great! Make me a masterwork katana." "Huh?"
What do I need a 7th level Blacksmith for? How about a masterwork cold iron wakasashi? You know how tough it is to make something like that out of cold iron? And he's married, so he has skill in diplomacy too. And he's a father, so he needs intimidate and bluff. He's also a Master in his guild, so Knowledge (Local), (Politics), etc.

In my world, an apprentice would be level 1. A Journeyman would be level 3. A master would be level 5. A Grandmaster could be as high as level 10 - though many of those levels might be in classes that expand his knowledge rather than his skill with his hands.

OK. I'm preaching off topic. Sorry. I just want you to know that, while I think my previous advice is sound, it comes from an opinionated place.

OK Brother. I read (re-read actually) the blog and I've got the answer to your original question:
You can't. You are never, no matter how many contortions you make, going to be able to consistently challenge Superheroes with mortals. That was the point of the Blog. 10th level characters are literally Supermen compared to a crimeboss (who would be level 3 by the blogger's formula). You might be able to finagle a Lex Luthor character, but only if the players are constrained by Superman's "Paladin-esque" code of honor. Most D&D players will just slaughter his employees, kill him, set fire to his building, and pee in the ashes.

That was the point of the Blog: Your characters are past mortal threats now. They are Superheroes. They can only be challenged by Supervillains, Super-Monsters, and Demigods. You have to accept that. It's a different kind of campaign now. Sure, you can have the crime boss hire the Super-Bad Guys, if you like. There are plenty of examples of low-level (but rich or connected) types commanding the allegiances of far higher level minions. It's the minions that will be the challenge. Your guys could wipe out the Kings guard and feed him his own scepter. By the blogger, the kings guard aren't more than 3rd level. But then all the OTHER Superheroes are going to come for them, aren't they?

Twist your thinking. Superman doesn't punch the crime boss. Superman punches the crime boss's robot (golem). Then he just picks the crime boss up by the scruff of the neck and flies him to jail. That's where a 10th level party is in the blogger's world.

"I'm not evil! I'm Chaotic Neutral!"
"You're EVIL!"
"...and a Whore."
- The Gamers: Dorkness Rising.

I agree with what you say, Ginglebrix. This is clearly a player covering for the alignment he should be playing with the "catch all"=CN.

That said, the question was "Are these acts enough to force an alignment shift?" There is nothing in the OP to suggest that the character comes from a background where such acts are the norm. In fact, the OP and other players being disturbed by it would suggest the opposite. Thus, no matter how much I enjoy stories of Lizardmen PCs (I have one) and Half-Orcs (I have one of those too), we should probably discount them for the purposes of this question. After all, no one is going to be shocked if the Lizardman eats victim's parts; they'll just hand him a napkin and reflect that "things are different in the swamp". It's best to assume he comes from Sandpoint or Absalom or someplace with at least a veneer of civilization.

With that initial starting condition, the results of the calculation are:
He is slightly Nuttier than Banana Bread, but not so Nutty as Fruitcake. Sane people from Sandpoint don't act that way, no matter how angry they get. Not being able to determine that kicking the body is acceptable and cutting off the hands and smearing blood on your face is not, is a classic sign that all your Fruitloops aren't in the bowl.
Chaotic Neutral clearly states that it is the alignment of "Crazy", so he is deadnuts on "Crazy Neutral" there. The slapping is a minor evil (though a disturbing one) that isn't enough to precipitate a shift.

Results: Scary Crazy Neutral with evil tendencies that would probably be happier just admitting he wants to play CE and be done with it.

Excellent point, blackbloodtroll. Unfortunately, we already have an inquisitor and the DM loves the half-orc Paladin idea so much he informed me that he would rip my head off and do something best left unsaid in my windpipe if I try to change.
We Have:
Inquisitor with some kind of Draconic Heritage thing I don't understand.
Bladebound Magus. Elric of Melnibone is the impression I get.
Druid. Player has never played D&D before.
Ninja. I don't have to adventure with her. I just walk through the dungeon and I find dead people. Stuff happens, Right? Traps are sprung when I get to them. Must have mice. A charging Orc falls over with a knife in his back. Sounds like a family curse. Sigh.

I mostly want to:
a) Be able to hold up my responsibilities in combat.
b) Be able to do something outside of combat besides preach and try to spot the Ninja (Perception isn't a class skill). Diplomacy, investigation, tame a Riding Squid. Heck! I don't care as long as it contributes and is fun.
c) As a player, I love to think, plan, strategize, and then grin like a maniac when it comes together. I still fondly remember the time we beat two Black Reavers by hiring a Dwarven Mining company to drop a Cliffside on them.
d) The Shadow as a Paly is definitely sub-optimal, but I still want to try to make him as psychological as possible. Beat them in combat, yes, but beat them in their minds first. It might not work, but it will be fun to try.

I was going to try the Paladin Gunslinger Archetype, but the firearm rules seem...peculiar. And we don't need another light armor ranged fighter anyway.

Tiems - Good point. Would that 15 be better used elsewhere? Perhaps on DEX? Someday I'll get mithril or magic armor (If I live that long)...

I've come to respect the cleverness and creativity of the people on these forums, so I'm asking for some of that creative input.
Although a veteran 2nd edition AD&D player (actually started before it was 'A'D&D), I'm relatively new to Pathfinder and most of my group is the same. I have access to the Core Rules, APG, UM, and UC, but can only claim "good" knowledge of the Core. There's a lot there.
I'm making a Paladin for Carrion Crown and this is his concept:

When Lamont Cranston was a child, he was in an Orc raid (as so many adventurers seem to be). While the family retainers that were escorting him were brutally murdered before his traumatized eyes, he was spared. He "smelled right". It was in the aftermath that he discovered he was actually half-orc. There was a strain in the family bloodline and it sometimes manifested. His orcish features were very muted, but they were there. He was horrified. All of his anger and fear turned into self-loathing. He was a monster and anyone who saw him would know it. He took to hiding and wearing a mask. He rarely spoke.
His parents became increasingly concerned as this behavior got no better through the next two years. In desperation, they sent him to the Temple school of Iomedae. There, the stern but kind teachers finally got through to him. They told him that he wouldn't hate the evil of orcs if there wasn't also good in his soul. He clung to that hope like a drowning man to a float. When he was old enough, he petitioned for Paladin training and became a Paladin of Iomedae. Though the training largely healed the scars in his mind, he still feels uncomfortable without his mask and knows that a knowledgeable person may spot the orc features in his glowering forehead and square jaw. It's a rare companion who has ever seen him without the mask.
Until the start of the adventure, he has preferred to operate at night in the poorest (and most crime-ridden) parts of town. Nightvision, a black cloak, and a long developed skill at hiding, means that often the first thing an evil-doer sees is a silver mask appearing in the night before his eyes. With Detect Evil at will and +6 sense motive, he really does know what evil lurks in the hearts of men.
So they call him, "The Shadow".

(Yeah, laugh it up. I love Old Time Radio. Sue me.)

What I need advice with is how to make up this character in a way that is fun to play and helpful to the party without either powergaming or crippling himself. It looks like we are going to be short on fighters. The only other stand up fighter is a bladebound magus. Not sure how that's going to work, but if he can get a decent AC and keep the pointy end of his sword toward the monsters, I'll be happy. As such, I think it best to stick with the traditional 2h weapon Paly. The DM is giving the chars a starting "item" and gave him mwk Full Plate as soon as I described him. DM OKed these traits:
Reduced Orcish Features. Looks more human. Someone who is knowledgeable about half-orcs could get a perception check to figure out his heritage, but most people would just think him a bit "funny looking".
Sneaky. You spent your childhood playing hide-and-seek and, as an adult, still like appearing unexpectedly. Get +1 to stealth checks and stealth is a class skill for you.
Stat rolls (Given by DM to all players): 18,17,16,15,14,13. Don't even try to figure out what that is in points - you'll sleep better. With all those bennies, I see no reason to min/max, powergame, or otherwise try to take advantage of the system. I just want to optimize him for fun roleplaying. So far, I'm thinking this for stats:

ST 18 +2 (I need to keep the bad guys focused on me and making sure that ignoring me is gonna get them gutted like a Sturgeon seems a reasonable way to do that. Perhaps a weapon with reach? I mean. I do +7.5 damage with the jawbone of an ass, does the base dam matter much? (Unless the ass is evil, I make sure it's dead first))
DX 13 (It's plate. Whatever.)
CON 16 (I'm waffling on this one and INT. I have so few skill points and so many useful skills, is 1 HP or 1 Skill point more useful. I put it here because I know I'm gonna get battered like a piñata, but I suspect the skills are more fun.)
INT 14 ( Two skills + INT? Really? What turnip truck did Paladins fall off of? No wonder people think we're stupid.)
WIS 15 (I'm not a primary spellcaster and I'm immune to half the will saves anyway.)
CHA 17 (Shades of Old school. Paly prom queens. At least it has a use now. It seems most of my spells and abilities are CHA based. And people like me. They really LIKE me...)

At this point, I'm stuck. Archetypes, feats: no clue. I hope I've given you an idea of my vision for the character and my sense of humor/fun.

Any ideas? BTW: This is my first Pathfinder char.

Good ideas from everybody. I just want to re-stress one thing: These APs were written so players with nothing but the core rulebook can play them, be challenged, and have fun. If you are adding things from other books like the APG, UM, UC, etc. without doing anything to the monsters, I would expect your challenge level to go down.

Make changes. If a module calls for a lvl 4 goblin fighter, make him a level 4 Gunslinger. Add some of the optimizations that people of these forums are good at. It's only balance to allow the monsters the same classes you allow the players. And, since the players stats are buffed, give the bad guy an extra henchman. Maybe a Time Oracle who can remove the fighter from time for two rounds while everybody concentrates on the "squishies". Fair is fair. Everybody gets more if you get more.

Play what you want to play. If (when) someone dies from a lack of healing, let them generate a cleric. Your players obviously aren't broken up by dying, so take it as a play point. If no one ever wants to play a cleric, you'll get real good at doing without. And you'll be awesome Call of Cthulhu players; "Bob, you're dead again, but you roleplayed it MAGNIFICENTLY!"

It all depends on what kind of a campaign the characters like. Some groups like gritty, realistic worlds where there are taxes, social injustices, and many shades of "gray" morality. Yes, the Count taxes his peasants cruelly to maintain an army. But if he doesn't do it, his neighbor will invade and conquer the County. Since medieval armies "forage" that means the peasants will be stripped bare, and remember that looting is a standard soldier occupation into the 20th century. Then, the starved, looted peasants will still be taxed just as cruelly by their new "Lord".
These kinds of worlds rarely lend themselves to simple or quick fixes. You try to make things better where you can. And finding a lord worth serving is a boon beyond price.

Other groups want the "social studies crap" simplified or taken out entirely. Dragon loot just makes things better. Forget that the supply of everything hasn't increased. More gold just means the peasants magically grow more grain and everybody is happy. That's heroic fantasy.

If your group is the first sort, feel free to heap taxes on them. Maybe they can't sell their loot without a tax stamp. The merchants won't buy it because they would lose their business when they try to resell it. Maybe Grave robbing is considered a crime just like it is in every real world country since the beginning of time, and they have to bribe a greedy noble to reclassify their loot as "salvage". Considering that the alternative is a headsman's block; 50% is an exceedingly generous offer on his part. Honestly, go to a county zoning commission meeting in your local county if you don't think this kind of greed and corruption are commonplace. You won't bother because you don't care. No one really does. Even the guy who gets shaken down only cares until he gets his variance; then he wants the next guy to have to pay even more. Don't tell me I can't tax adventurers; I can tax you in ways you can't even imagine. I'll tax your food. I'll tax your bed. I'll tax the leaves you wipe your arse with and the spade you cover your doo with. You are the perfect target to tax; transients with no connections, no political pull, no desire to stick around and get involved in politics...and you're rich. You are an American in Canada. Good luck getting out with your clothes.

If your group is the second type, forget taxes. We play games to not have to deal with real-world crap. Let them get rich without causing inflation or making the established power structure jealous. Let them buy a castle without bothering with why it's for sale or what the previous owner is gonna do with the money. They are bloody heroes, mate! Let them live larger than life.

My advice: Choose the second option. This is Pathfinder, not a course on political corruption and greed past and present.

It seems to me that it all falls down to good roleplaying. Play the bad guys the way you think THEY would act. Examples:

1. Animals don't do coups:
a) A bear swats an annoying hunter and crits him to negative hitpoints in one shot. The bear then bats the hunter around for two rounds (perhaps doing 1 hp damage), then snuffles over him for a round and wanders off.
b) A boar gores a character to negative. The boar is enraged; he will keep goring the downed character for full damage for several rounds unless drawn off. Boars are nasty.
c) A goblin dog drops a character. It is going to feed on him. National Geographic show how animals eat. It will spend a round sniffing over the prey to make sure it's "dead". Then it will nip at it for two rounds to make sure it doesn't get up and find the best places to eat (probably 1-2 points of damage). Finally, it will start tearing off bite sized bits doing 3-4 points each round. Of course it will only do this if undisturbed. The characters can always rescue a downed friend by drawing off the critter.

2. Undead are rarely going to have the brains or motivation to coup:
a) Mindless undead (Zombies/Skeletons) just follow their last order; Usually, "Attack anything that comes through that door." Once you stop moving, you aint coming through the door. They likely ignore downed characters unless ordered otherwise.
b) Ghouls (and other ravenous undead) are going to do whatever gives them the best chance of feeding. Stupid ones may just start feeding right there. They will do max damage each round (they don't eat like animals). Ghouls are more likely to drag the downed character off to feed someplace where they won't be disturbed by that stupid cleric waving holy symbols in their face. They are unlikely to waste a round killing someone who's already unconsious.
c) Intelligent undead will follow their motivations, but that rarely means insta-killing. If the cleric keeps healing people back into the fight, a vampire is quite vicious enough to stop that with a coup. But he is most likely to do that to the cleric first...unless he just wants to torture the cleric by killing his friends one-by-one. usually he will want you alive to feed off, though.

3. Crazies and sadists are likely to be very random:
a) Goblins are usually going to concentrate on living opponents because that's where the fun is, but they may also stop for a turkey leg, set fire to their friend as a prank, or even hack at a downed foe (or obvious corpse) for a round. They wouldn't do it as a coup, just a random hack (auto hit, roll damage normally).
b) Psychopaths and assassins want you dead. That's it. They may prefer to kill you slowly, torture, or gloat if they can; but aren't going to leave their target alive. You need to identify their target and work as a group to thwart them. Their fixation is both their strength and their weakness.

4. Intelligent BBGs are the worst for coups. They will do whatever it takes to win - not just the battle, but the war. If they know they aren't going to win this fight, they may very well coup a downed character and then retreat. The next time they fight you, they'll be healed, but you'll still be down a character. They may even stage ambushes who's sole purpose is to "cut-out" and kill a character. But don't be fooled into thinking that's the only option. An unexpected act of mercy can confuse the characters. It can leave them in his debt or even convince them to parley. They may even end up foiling his plans, but not killing him. There is nothing cooler than an "honorable villain". Magneto, anyone?

My party got pretty beat up in the briar patch. They ended up making too much noise and alerting Gogmurt thus getting ambushed. They also managed to use magical fire on the thistles and cause massive smoke which was one of the funnest things I've had to ad-lib so far. When Goggy (I'm becoming fond of this guy) used his speak with animals to set the goblin dogs up to flank the party, the barbarian got badly mauled, and Gogmurt got away - although he did lose his cat.

Long and short of it is; the party is probably gonna have to pull back to sandpoint and heal up before trying again. The massive smoke cloud has even goblins on alert (actually excited: Fire! Yeah!).

I figure the results this way:
1) Gogmurt storms off to Ripnugget with a massive "I told you so! Adventurers to murder us all!" "Where are they?", says Ripnugget. "I drove them off by myself.", Gogmurt replies. "...Liar.", responds Ripnugget. A huge falling out occurs and Gogmurt storms off to the woods.

2)Gogmurt spends 24 hours getting a new animal companion while Ripnugget looks at the dead refugees and goblin dogs and decides that something must have happened here. He sets the goblins to preparing some extra defenses/basic traps and bullies everyone into being alert. If the PCs attack during this time they won't have to deal with Goggy, but the Goblins are gonna be stirred up. Nualia figures anyone defeated by Goblins is no threat to her and ignores the whole mess - Goblins aren't reliable sources of information anyway.

3) If they spend a day healing and return the next day with full spells, the results are worse. Ripnugget is still keeping the goblins awake, but their enthusiasm for the new "build traps" game has gotten the better of them and their attentions are mostly on building fiendish/idiotic traps everywhere. Expect some fatalities among the goblins. Gogmurt will be back to his paranoid self and will recruit a few Goblins that are loyal to him (mostly hunters and scavengers that have benifited from his magic) to help him set ambushes in the forest for the PCs that he's sure will return. He will use his ability to hide tracks at will to lay false trails around the ambush sites to slow the characters, but his time is limited, so expect a couple "No Kill Goblins!" messages along the trail, and one major ambush. Possibly followed by a pursuit. Remember that he knows these woods and will use the flora (stinging nettle, etc.) and his ability to pass through it to both prepare ambushes (a bird net filled with nettles to dump on PCs make a good low-tech trap) and discourage pursuit.

3) After 3 days, if the PCs wait that long, the goblins will have lost interest in the trap game ("To much like work.") and Ripnugget will be losing interest in bullying them into alertness ("Way too much work.") The extra defenses in the briar patch - thistle barricades, pit traps, and snares that swing you into spikes concealed in the thistles mostly - will be fully manned by the extra goblins that have returned from foraging etc., but not be especially alert. Gogmurt will use the extra day to refine his main ambush and, realizing that he is probably gonna get chased, prepare tracks and set up to lead the PCs into a monster den. An ettercap-giant spider sounds appropriate. He can use his flame blade to keep from getting caught laying the tracks while pissing the ettercap off.

4) If they wait a week or more the traps will be only about half functional as Goblin craftsmanship and carelessness takes their toll. The extra defenses will be only 2/3 manned and most of the Goblins will be at only normal (for Goblins) alertness. Ripnugget will have had time to accelerate his plans for the invasion of sandpoint, though, so there will probably be more Goblins in the fort. Gogmurts paranoia is a more potent motivator than Ripnuggets bullying and he will still have his group of Goblins ready to go to ambush positions when he gives the word. Being torn apart by an animal companion (probably a bear) if you try to slink off is a motivation Goblins understand. He will use the extra days to craft poisons from the flora using his craft potions feat and knowlege nature. Expect all the hunters arrows to be poisoned now. He will also use his speak with animals to make sure that he can find out quickly when the PCs enter the Tanglewood. Expect the traps at his ambush(s) to be more elaborate and effective. There are likely to be some pit traps/punji holes that his nature knowlege will make better concealed than typical Goblin traps. He will use his wand of tree shape to set himself up to both activate the traps and ambush the party from the back.

OK. So this was a book. The bottom line is that Gogmurt is the smartest Goblin there and he is a druid/rogue. He's not a frontline fighter and won't think that way. Don't use him to confront the PCs directly. He will warn the fort and then try to find a way to ambush or flank them. The cindercat has an awesome stealth. He is likely to try to backstab the party when it's fighting someone else. He can also use his speak with animals to gather up the goblin dogs and use them as shock troops when he attacks from the rear. Gogmurt is loyal to the tribe, but cares no more than any other Goblin for his fellows individual lives. He won't sacrifice himself to save some cannon-fodder. Going into an alerted Goblin fortress with an unknown number of assailents at your back, is dumb-as-a-bag-of-hammers. Don't pull punches. Goblins are dumb, but they are vicious little mo-fos; they won't pull punches. If they TPK because of bad tactics, they will whine at first, but they will tell that story for years to come, brag about how their DM is a badass who made them fear Goblins for the first time in 20 years (my characters already say that), and they can make up new characters to avenge their fallen friends. After all, the Gobs are just gonna store all the gear they can't use in their treasury for your next party to take back. Vengence is doubly sweet.

OK. If I understand; you have protected your property for now, so your principle problem is the disruption and time wasting this guy's behavior is causing?

If you were the DM, you would have a half-dozen arrows in your quiver to fix this behavior, but as a player, you are feeling frustrated at having to put up with this without the DM doing anything.
My first question is: How do the other players react to this guy's antics? Do they laugh and egg him on, or roll their eyes and sigh with exasperation? Have you talked to the other players to see if they are as annoyed as you? It may be that they are fine with it and the only problem here is you. Not saying that to be harsh or insulting; I just want you to take a look at the big picture and consider how everybody feels.
If the rest of the group is having fun, you may just have to accept that the game has gone silly. Roll up a blue monkey with Techno-Wizard MOM implants (An actual NPC I'm roleplaying in RIFTS) and go to town. Knock yourself out flinging poo back at him.
Assuming the rest of the group is getting annoyed with him too, my next question is: How much more of this can you stand? At some point there will have to be a confrontation - either with the player, or the DM. If the whole group (except for his friend) confronts the DM and says, "Either shape him up or ship him out." the DM will have to take action. Either way, the confrontation will be most effective if it comes as a group consensus.

For now, you have to do what your DM told you: wait and give him time. It's the DM's game. Treat his decision with the respect you would ask him to treat yours. He may have plans already to remedy the situation - he's even more a victim of the game disruption than you are; it's his game being hijacked. Give him the benifit of the doubt and give the troublemaker time...and rope. By that I mean; document his behavior. Take notes of the stuff he does and the time it wastes. Seriously. I reccomend a yellow legal tablet. When you have to rally the troops for the final showdown, having everything in writing will make you three times more persuasive. There is a reason lawyers do that, you know. He can deny all he wants; you have it in black and yellow.

Sorry for the wall of text. I wanted to take your question seriously and give you the best answer I could.

We had a player once that insisted on playing the most wacked-out characters. Not PKers or molesters or anything like that...Just flat out crazy.
I recall a mage that wouldn't wear clothes. None at all. Ever. No reason given. This guy was a real nice, smart, compassionate fellow - I even shared an apartment with him for 6 months. Just seemed to have this strange quirk when trying to RP. We'd ask his character to scout the left hand path, and then run down the right hand path as fast as we could. Every time we tried to let him play, it was the same story.

Eventually we were playing GURPS fantasy. His character was a half-ogre. Ogres have the "Odious Personal Habit: Eats Sentients" disadvantage. Half-ogres don't have to take it; but, of course, he loved it. Not every sentient. Just halflings. He considered himself a gourmet chef of halflings. Collected recipes (OK he invented them or converted them from veal recipes) obssessively. Loved to talk about cooking them - preferably at inopportune times. We rescued the halfling PC from the pot at least once. It was looking like this character was on his way to scout out the sphere of annihilation in short order. Until I had an epiphany.
My character was a Goblin merchant name "Qu'Vark". A master merchant who would sell anything to anyone as long as the profit was right. Honestly folks, don't tell me you didn't see Ferengi and say "Goblin Evolution!" Anyway, my character had great skills, and a few spells, but was weak on combat. My whip just wasn't cutting it against things that resisted my spells. So I hired the half-ogre as a bodyguard. As a master merchant, I could afford to equip him in the best stuff. As his master, I could tell him not to eat people on duty. Our contract specified that he was always on duty. He loved roleplaying it. When people asked what weapon I used, I said "Him".
The other cute thing was that he had taken a head wound. In GURPS you can take a called shot to the brain. It's very difficult, and the skull provides extra DR, but it does 4x (or 5x - I forget) damage that penitrates. He took a crossbow bolt to the back of the head and survived, but the GM rulled that the healing didn't regrow the skull which left a soft spot. We called it his reset button. Every time his "roleplaying" got out of hand, someone would reach up and press his reset button. He would then roleplay an epileptic seizure, shake himself, and ask, "What's going on?" Calm as a cucumber.

His character survived and prospered. Considering he had a genius IQ for a half-ogre ( 10 ), I eventually even paid to send him to law school. I reasoned that the only thing scarier than a Heavily Armed, Cannibal, Half-Ogre was...
A Heavily Armed, Cannibal, Half-Ogre, Lawyer.

All of Vicon's ideas are awesome. I'm definately remembering those for future reference.

While working it through in game, simply take the fun out of it. Just make him say "Yes or No" and no descriptions allowed.

"Are you torturing the prisoner?"
"Yes. I want to..."
"I don't want descriptions. I know you are clever enough to figure out some way to hurt a helpless captive. I only want to know if you are going to do it? Yes or No."
"Yes..." (Sulks)

Then implement Vicon's ideas. Any one. They are all good. You don't need to be subjected to someone elses' fetishes. If neccessary, tell him so in no unclear terms.

I'm dead serious here. Subjecting you to descriptions of vile acts like rape or torture is rude. The only response to rudeness is a stern rebuke. Let him do the act in game and apply the consequences. But the description is limited to, "I torture him."
I stress the period.

You know all those terrible things things that people on the forums tell you NEVER to do? Things like MetaGaming, and DMPCs, and Mary Sue NPCs? Sounds like a good time to be bad.

Are there any good-aligned PCs from previous games that you can remember? They can be your - or better yet - the players exPcs. Have them show up in response to the present players actions. They burned a town, they've killed innocent NPCs who were just trying to give them quests. They are clearly the baddies. What's more; they're not even good at being bad. If you want to be bad, it's axiomatic that you don't commit wantonly evil (and profitless) acts while standing out like a sore thumb, unless you want heroes to look for you. How's MR Beast-with-wings gonna hide in a crowd?

Have the heroes (their heroes) hunt them down and slaughter them in some particularly amusing and - if possible - idiomatic way. Make sure to point out that this is exactly the type of mucking around game the players seemed to want to play; you are just giving them what they want. And be sure to point out that the exPCs are acting perfectly in character. Over the years they've slaughtered hordes of baddies that had twice the IQ of this group. Point out examples. If they complain, look puzzled, and point out that this was the only way this game could possibly end. What did they expect? If they wanted a pirate adventure, they could have played a pirate adventure. They chose to burn down the town instead.
Ask them if they want to roll up new characters and play a pirate adventure now? Make sure to smile.

Blackbloodtroll: Literally LOL.

If Mr R wants evil game. Mr B is morally "neutral" - which is game code for "evil but I don't want to admit it". And DM is OK with evil actions. Why not just play an evil campaign? Change characters, or atleast change your chars alignment, and become the guys who bring about the apocalypse. Work for the "freedom fighter" monsters to awaken the great old one, call down the starstone, or whatever the baddy's goal is. Then just make sure this party dies in the devastation it causes. You can do that: your character is both evil and crazy. That's the game they wanted, right?

I know you are worried about playing an evil game with your son, but he is going to be exposed to that in high school games, or maybe colege. It's best to prepare him in a game with his father where you can explain and talk about the ramifications afterward.

One more thought occurred to me to pass along. (People who know me get scared when I say "A thought occurs to me.."

First, though: I didn't intend the metagaming obsevation to be insulting. I was trying to point out that the behavior you described was forcing you to play out of character and metagame just to keep the group together. That's as frustrating for you as it is not-fun. I was trying to point out that the situation is inherently unstable; it simply couldn't go on like that. You couldn't keep sacrificing your characters roleplaying and your own fun just to keep a disfunctional character in the group. I guess I was kinda encouraging you to RP your character by sticking something pointy into the evil one and just say, "I'm roleplaying my alignment and my character just like you. How many hit points more until you die?" Sorry if it came across offensive. It wasn't intended that way.

Now for the idea:
You know a great role for attention-hogs? Dungeon Master. Tell him that it's obvious he's not happy playing in this kind of campaign, so you are all happy to let him run one that he would be happy with. Don't make it optional. Next week, he is running. I don't care if it's a dice generated dungeon and random encounter charts. Roll up an evil sorcerer and go to town. This might sound a little flippant, but, if you can pull it off, it could be just the thing to keep the group together. The DM gets all the attention. Maybe that's what he needs. He might even be good at it.

I'm gonna try to spoiler the character meet, even though I don't think there is any Runelords spoiler stuff - this is just how I visualized them meeting before the campaign starts.

The character roster is:
Half-Drow Oracle raised by shonti
Half-Drow Rogue raised by shonti
Gnome Druid plans to take some ranger levels too, animal companion
Human Wizard of whatever OP class he can find somewhere - I say that smiling even though it's true, it'll be fine. I've been playing since before AD&D; I can handle a little powergaming. He's a good RPer and a smart fellow. He'll likely need a little extra power to keep the crazy elf sistas under control (somewhat).
Half-Elf Bard already nicknamed "Master Thespian". Genius! Thank You.
All Chaotic Neutral. Some admit to slight "Good" tendencies. Sigh.

My Note to them:

ulgulanoth wrote:

half-elf + half-orc = human?

Half-Orc of a drunken Half-Elf + Orc at a "OMG, what did I do last night?" party

I was at that party. Oh Crappo-ducks! Was that you?!

Thanks folks!
Some great input there. I forwarded to picture of Chianni to her. The stuff about dwarven reactions was usefull too. I had wondered how dwarves might feel.

I really don't think the ladies are that concerned with stat bonuses. I haven't bought extra books for race guides yet. My gaming budget isn't huge, so I'm making due with the minimum pathfinder purchases I can get away with now. Paizo stuff is great, but it aint cheap. And there is so much stuff that would be cool to have. If I don't eat lunch for two weeks, I can buy the Bestiary Box and maybe lose 10 lbs...Sounds like a win-win...
Sorry. Distracted there for a moment.

It sounds like yall basicly agree with my take: It's non-canon, but can probably be worked in without too much hand waving. After the Unearthed Arcana debacle ("You couldn't swing a bec-de-corbin without hitting a curvy dark elf maiden. They were OP in all the right places" - OoTS last comic) I am just as down on OP Drow PCs as most DMs. But players who are willing to take standard half-elf stats and even accept a penalty just so they can look the way they want, is something I really want to work in.

Is anyone interested in reading the "characters meet up" story for the group? It's a small wall-of-text...

I need a sanity check from yall who are better versed in inner sea lore than I.

We are starting a new game in Golarion for the first time and I'm running my brand new RotRL Anniversary Edition. Yeah! One of the players is new to RP but very excited to get her inner geek on. She's also an artist. She spotted the picture of the Drow in the Core Rulebook and fell in love. There is nothing in my inner sea world guide that implies renegade drow exist in Golarion. They are evil. People will burn them. People will put out the witch, just so they can use the wood to burn the drow.

Without turning this into a wall of text; lets's just say the campaign (her and another character) to convince me to let them look that way began. Stats, they didn't care about. They just want to look that way. So I came up with this compromise:
They can be half-drow.
Drow feed such abominations to monsters, but occasionally the Svirfneblin may rescue one (or two) and smuggle them to the surface.
They will use the normal half-elf stats.
Human's haven't a clue about drow, but they all know that there are dark-skinned humans on the southern continent. They will just assume that they are normal half-elves whose human parent was black. There is no skin-color prejudices in Golarion, so there shouldn't be any reaction penalty from humans; half-elves are already exotic.
They are foundlings adopted by the shonti, so they are heavily tattooed and ritually scared. This will further hide their true nature. Especially usefull if they have to deal with elves.
Elves will be puzzled by them. If they figure out what they are, they are likely to attack first and use speak with dead to ask questions later. Elves hate drow more than Dwarves hate watered beer.

Does this sound plausable within the world? I'm only getting into this world, so I'm far from an expert. Opinions are appreciated.

You are afraid of losing this player from the group. Have you considered that he may be afraid of being booted? People who play like that have trouble finding groups. If he is booted, it's likely Skyrim for him.
Thus, if the whole group - GM and Mr B included - confronts him and tells him his behavior is unacceptable, it may be enough to scare him straight. If it doesn't, and he throws another "dictator" tantrum, then politely but firmly give him an "invitation to the world". I've run three person parties with me (as the DM) providing NPCs, and they were not only fun, but the PCs became very attached to the NPCs. They didn't hestitate to risk their lives to save/rescue the NPCs just like they would for a PC. It never even occurred to them to think differently. They LIKED those guys!

Bottom Line: This guy's characters are traitors. How are you justifying hanging out with him in game? You are metagaming your ass off not to just stick a fork in him and walk away. You're DONE, dude. Yep. I said it. He's roleplaying. You're metagaming. Would you (your character -that is) put up with that behavior from an NPC? Why are you putting up with it from him? Half of your frustration is that you aren't getting to roleplay your character because you have to pretend that feminine-hygine-product-carrying-container behavior is acceptable, when it clearly isn't. A cannibal witch, for Desna's sake?!
Still...save those character sheets... Those are gonna be some sweet villans later... I can't help thinking like a DM.

Snorter - I did read the thread. Give the OP himself a little credit; he doesn't say she is evil. He says the DM has used the baddies link to her to screw over the party and he's tired of it. He doesn't say she ever did anything to him - that's why he wants to trap her soul rather than destroyed it Elric style. She's not bad; she's just inconvienient.

Illydth - I think you summed it up well. He should be allowed. Most of the cautions here involve RL fallout. We've all lost groups (and sometimes friends) because of something that happened in game. We don't want it to happen here. In spite of all the heated exchanges, the people here really do care. I like that. It is, however, his call; and it sounds like he made it.

Sleep-Walker - It sounds like you've made up your mind. I will respect you enough to accept your decision even though I disagree with it. At this point there isn't more to say about your disagreement with the DM. I offered him ideas on his thread that he could use to offer you alternatives to your plan that might be a lot more in harmony with the party. It's up to you guys, if you want to be open to changes like that. But, if he's fixed on his plot, and you are on yours, there is little to do but roll the dice and deal with the consequences.

So let's look at the consequences:
1) You may fail spectacularly. She has been kidnapped and tortured once (at least) and she's a 16 level sorceress, I think you said? With some witch levels? She's likely to be paranoid as all get out and have lots of defenses that you know nothing of. She may even have developed paranoid habits - like scanning her treasure for traps from the baddie. The DM isn't being bad to set this kind of thing up. In fact, he'd be remiss if he didn't modify her behavior based on what happened to her. Example: I had an adventure in Greyhawk where the characters were going to help the mayor find out why a group of assassins were trying to take him out (clumsily). One character decided (on his own) to kidnap the mayor and use him as bait for the assassins. Unfortunately, I had planned to have the players help the mayor fight off an attempt on his life, so I already had the mayor's office defenses planned out. The character was dead in three rounds. The player stormed off yelling that I was being unfair and I'd made that stuff up just to "protect my precious gay mayor". I know you're not that immature, but remember the mythbusters motto: "Failure is always an option." The Dm is under no obligation to make it easy for you - or even fair. My player had no more chance than a bug on a windshield. I didn't even try to give him one.You're on your own here. You may succeed spectacularly and get the big reveal, or you may end up trapped in your own soul gem.

2) You may find a success worse than a failure. You know nothing about her soul-link. You don't even know if your soul gem will work - the baddie may have a prior claim on her soul. You could just be damning her to torment at the hands of the baddie - who will promptly tell all your friends about it (because he's bad). Of course, if he consumes her soul and all of her power, you could end up making her the BBG after all. Perhaps it works perfectly and really pisses the BBG off. Up to now, he was complacent about you; tormenting you, stealing your stuff, etc. He thought he had an edge, so he underestimated you - which you could have used for your advantage. Advantage gone. He didn't think he needed to send a big army since he had an "inside man" to open the gates. You could have stopped that army. The three times bigger one he sends to bash down the gates, you can't stop. You escape with your lives and the town gets eaten. GJ. Or you find you need her link to find the BBG. He's tormented you with it, but now you use it against him. You pull out her soul gem and ressurect her according to plan. "I'm sorry I killed you and trapped your soul, but we need your help now". At this point the sorceress (who doesn't agree that killing her and trapping her soul was a "not evil" act - women, who can figure em?)promptly blasts you with every spell she has - concentrating on ones that hurt. Remember how mad your wife got when you forgot to do something she asked? Try knifing her and locking her soul in a gem for three months. Make your bluff check. Now make a saving throw. Roleplaying gold.

3) You may be OK with lying to the other players for months, but the DM might not be. I don't like lying to my friends (and wife), and I really don't see why I should do it for you. This isn't in game or metagaming. He may just say, "No. I don't want to play that game." You make your choice, he has a right to make his. I've left games because I didn't like them. Players have left mine because they didn't like it (only that one time yelling, though). We play the game to have fun. If he wouldn't have fun because of your act; you need to accept that, or one of you needs to leave the game. Bottom line.

4) Even if everything works perfectly and you get your "Big Reveal", it might not be all you hope for. One player is likely to be hurt. The others will be shocked, but I hope they politely compliment you on your "plot twist". Then when the next game starts they show their "big reveal" - they don't invite you. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't. No offense meant. I am just happier in games where PCs don't kill my love intrests. Completely a personal choice. I don't sacrifice the girl to save the world; I save them both. Even if it's harder. Thet's why they call me a hero. I like the extra challenge of winning while not abandoning the waif. Or even losing valiantly. It's my thing, baby. I accept that you disagree. It really does sound like your friends want to win with the girl too, though. You are denying them that arbitrarily and without consulting them. You don't have to play with me and I don't have to play with you. No hard feelings. Just make sure that your friends won't end up feeling like me. That's too high a price for pride. Really.

P.S. If anybody is curious. The party did a lot of fast talking and kept their freedom. They just had to find out who the baddies were quick if they wanted to keep it. It worked out as a great "hero needs to clear his name" trope without any railroading or setting up on my part. It changed the adventure into one that was even better. The player who stormed out, never came back, but he did get over his pique. He became a fine roleplayer and a great DM. He admitted to using that very scenario and set up later. Happy endings.

Spiral Ninja,
Wow. That was really well written. I totally agree with your points, and really admire how you phrased them. I posted a comment in the DM's thread. I'd love to hear your take on it.

Is this an evil game? Do the other players know that your character is evil? If they chose to hang out with an evil rogue, they have to expect that he is gonna off their loved ones when it's convinient for him. I've played evil groups - if you value something; money, property, or your NPCs, you protect them. Victory goes to the guy who gets the last "Big Reveal". If this is an evil group, I don't see the problem.

If it's not an evil group, then you are a traitor and they should try to expose you and kill you, of course. You attack my friends (PC or NPC is irrelevant - if I say they're my friends, they're my friends)you are an enemy. If you pretend to be a friend while really being an enemy (see above definition) then you are a traitor. This isn't rocket science. I don't care how you rationalize it. All traitors rationalize their actions. It's part of being a traitor. We hang them anyway. The girl never did anything to hurt you. If she was used by an enemy, that's not her fault. I just need to find a way to help her. The same way I would help you, if it was you. The same way I wouldn't sacrifice you, if it was you. The same way I'd protect you if someone attacked you, or avenge you if they succeed. Especially a traitor.

-Speaking in Character as "The Grumpy Old Bastard"
My RIFTS character (OK. It kinda shifted to in character halfway through)

This is a great topic. It's taken so many twists with accusations and blames and people bringing up things from their own past that it's really going to be tough to make a response that's both focused and useful. Maybe the Gygax be with me.

Your original question was: How do I stop a PC from killing an NPC without hurting his feelings or seeming unfair. That's a fair question. It doesn't matter why you want the NPC alive. It's your game, you can want her alive for any reason you like. I paid $37.00 for Rise of the Rune Lords; if a player decides to murder Aldern Foxglove in the middle of the town square in chapter one and get themselves run out of town, I'm gonna make sure that doesn't happen. Opinions of people on the Internet notwithstanding.

To answer your question you really have to know why he wants to kill the NPC. He's being a dick, yes, but why is he being a dick? It's clear to me, even without revealing anything from his post, that he thinks you way overplayed the clone card. You have screwed them repeatedly with the clones, culminating with stealing all their stuff. Power gamers get very attached to their stuff. Like dwarves. If you had shaved off his beard, painted his ass blue, and used him in a game of dwarf toss, he would have been less irritated. At least the game would have ended. The clones haven't gone away. They can steal their stuff again. And screw them again. And there isn't a damn thing he can do about it… Except kill your NPC and punish you in the process. To be honest, I can empathize with him. It's like an audit from the IRS; you just want it to be over.

That's the crux: you have to give him a way to get rid of the clones without killing the NPC. If you don't, your game is at a standstill. My advice would be to have the NPC be an important part of that. Consider that if someone was making clones of me I'd be pretty upset about it. I would want to do something about it. I would gather up whatever wealth I had and head down to local temple to ask the gods what I can do about it. Make a big production of it.

Visualize. The players are all waiting outside the church. After 48 hours of prayer, sacrifice, and spells, Khiana comes out.
Khiana: The gods have shown me the way to sever the link that creates the clones, but it is a dangerous path. I must prepare, and I must have help.
Tamarack: Of course I will go-
Khiana: No. (points a Taylor) Only he may accompany me. (To Taylor) The the goddess has revealed that my life and my death rests in your hands. And I must not die.
Khiana: (To the rest of the party) The clone link is a link of the heart. If I die, it does not sever: it passes to the one I love. And then to the one she loves, and so on. That was his plan all along.

Do you see the true insidious evil of his plan? The clones would sow fear and distrust until they grew greater than their love and they killed. Then their love would destroy them.

To sever the link she and Taylor have to find one of the clones. Taylor will have to keep the clone busy without killing it while Khiana casts a special dispel magic to sever its link with the master. Then she has to cast a blessing spell from a scroll to protect it. Then Khiana has to die. Most likely by taylor's hand. When she dies, her soul will move into the clone as per the normal spell description. Since you can't have a clone link to a clone the connection can't reestablish, but she also isn't dead, so it can't move onto the next person. The link is over. No more clones.
And Taylor even got to kill her.

I've played it - lvl 30 Tempest of Set. The game is fine so far as I've seen. The graphics are nice if you have a good graphics card. Most performance complaints seem to come from people who are congenitally incapable of playing any game below it's maximum settings.

The key problem for me is that no one else I know plays it. It is set up to be very "guild" oriented. I'm just burned out with online "friends" in MMOs. Getting together with real-world friends that have moved all over the country to play an MMO together would be awesome... Playing with random folks who view me as a collection of sprites just aint so much.

Simple question: Have you ever helped a D&D friend move furniture? How about an online guild-mate you never met in real life?
There is a difference.
I miss my D&D....But I'm burned out on MMOs.

Better idea:

Let's pay each man. woman, and child in Canada 1 million dollars to change their citizenship to US. That would cost approx 33.4 Trillion dollars. Since the US federal budget is nearly 3 trillion it would take at least two decades to pay off (assuming sacrifices and tax increases).
The benefit: Canada ceases to exist and the US acquires her territories and resources by default (along with the population, but you can't have everything - at least they won't be socialists after they're millionaires).

Mexico is even easier. Consider that every year millions of Mexican citizens undergo harrowing and often life-threatening treks across the border so they can live in constant fear and work long hours for less than minimum wage. They consider this preferable to living under the thumb of the corrupt criminal organizations that comprise the Mexican government. Solution: Give every Mexican who wants it US citizenship. Granted; it's a lot of people to absorb (triple the pop of Canada) but we will have vast tracks of land and huge resources to exploit in Canada and the millionaires living there aren't gonna want to work - we will need the labor. We will send buses down to help collect people - they will be advised to bring their whole families since money transfers from the US to Mexico will become illegal.
Starved of Money to steal from migrant workers in the US, and with no one to exploit at home, the criminal organizations will quickly collapse into infighting and anarchy. After a suitable time, we move in - under a humanitarian mandate from the UN - to restore order. We quickly institute a "de-bathification" process; basically anyone connected with the government or the cartels (which basically means anyone rich) has their property seized and gets to walk to Guatamala with the clothes on their back.
We then set up a territorial government, re-colonize Mexico the same way we did all our western states, admit them to the union and; Viola! The United States of North America without firing a shot.

You know...this isn't near as funny as I thought it would be when I started writing it...Sigh

World domination is easy. Comedy is hard.

Rather than assigning a single alignment, it might be more useful to analyze each party with regard to various "axis". For example:

Consider one axis to be the attitude toward economic freedom and the other the attitude toward social freedom. Lawful would indicate more societal control while Chaos would be more individual freedom. Keep in mind that everybody thinks they are good. Also, we want to describe how the rank and file define themselves - not the cynical, selfish, manipulative leaders.

Republican - Chaotic economic. Lawful social. You can get as rich as you want, any way that you want, but not marry who you want, and your employer can sell your bodily organs without asking you.

Democrat - Lawful economic. Chaotic Social. Marry anyone or anything you like, but we will take your money and spend it in the way we deem wise for society.

Libertarian - Chaotic both. Your money, your life - just don't hurt anybody. About the time you are starting to think these guys are pretty cool, somebody button-holes you about his plan to privatize the sidewalks.

Greens - Lawful both. The planet is everything, you are less than nothing; you are the problem. We will tell you how to live, what to drive, what jobs you can work at and we will spend whatever you make on projects to save the planet. Hey! If we don't control you, we will all die. What good will your precious freedom be then?

Keep in mind - these are only the views of the "useful idiots". The Leaders of all the parties can best be described as Lawfull Evil - with the possible exception of the Libertarians since they don't seem to have leaders due to their ability to cooperate not rivalling that of cats.