Thanks for stopping by! My friends have recently been complaining of the complexity of the Pathfinder System, and seeking to move on to the next best thing as it were. However, I am still in love with Pathfinder. I love everything about it! However, I also love gaming with my friends. In an attempt to convert them, and to streamline the game in a more desirable fashion for them, I present to you Pathfinder Saga Edition!
This is a work in progress, of which I dearly hope for the Communities input. I would love for this to one day become a publishable game, as I have long desired to open my own company, but we shall see. In the meantime, my goal is to merge elements of Star Wars Saga Edition, Pathfinder, and other systems to create a more streamlined game that retains the feel and complexity of Pathfinder, but fixes some of the imbalances while still providing a fresh breath of air to those burnt out on standard D20 systems. With that being said, I present my very, very, very as in I just wrote this 5 minutes ago after working all day and being exhausted with no form of game design skill whatsoever rough draft! Please give advice and opinions on each little blurb, and as I update the document, I will update this thread, and hopefully together as a community we can make something new and great!
Rough Rough ROUGH Draft, please don't break me to badly:
PATHFINDER MEETS SAGA: HOMEBREW EDITION
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This document aims to be a combination of the Pathfinder and Star Wars Saga edition rules, taking the complexity and spirit of the Pathfinder RPG rule set and combining it with the streamlined format of Star Wars Saga Edition. The eventual goal would be a whole new Fantasy RPG, complete with a Campaign Setting to support it, as well as a Core Rulebook. This work is purely for recreational and personal use, though the goal of the Author is to someday legitimize it and turn it into a full fledged published Game System, under the business entity known as Grey Citadel Gaming.
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Problems inherent in Pathfinder that need to be fixed are as follows;
-Martial/Caster Disparity- In essence, at higher levels Casters control the game, with Martials existing purely for the purpose of proving HP damage, with few or limited tricks. The goal of this revision of the system is not to limit Casters, but instead shrink the gap between the two, and ideally do away with it completely, if at all possible. However, with that being said, the author realizes that Magic contains world changing abilities that no mundane martial can hope to replicate. Too that end, I propose that instead of taking away those powers, Martials be given mastery over combat and physical abilities, and Magic become more subtle, with fewer direct battle spells, focusing more on battlefield control, buffing, and debuffing rather than actual damage to the foe.
-Speed of Combat-In Pathfinder, Combat can take a long time. Indeed, at higher levels it is not uncommon for the average combat round, which is supposed to represent 6 seconds of time, to actually take 30 or more minutes to complete! The goal of this revision would be to shorten the rounds by reducing the amount of actions each combatant can take, while not losing any of the combatants impact upon the battle. To that end, Iterative Attacks will be replaced by a scaling plus to Weapon Damage(Including Natural and Unarmed Attacks), as well as a plus to Weapon Attack Rolls. The goal is to only have 1 attack each round to roll, but for the Damage to be higher, thus lowering the amount of time it takes to resolve your turn without lowering your Damage Output. Actions would
also be split into Standard/Move/Quick, with Quick Actions having two sub categories(Swift, and Immediate). Again, the design goal is to retain options but increase fluidity of Combat.
-Feat Tax-In the current Pathfinder Game, some Feats are viewed as necessary evils, options chosen purely for the need to have them in some shape or form. Some, such as Point Blank Shot, are chosen as perquisite Feats, to access better Feats down the road. Others, such as Power Attack, are options that are so good, they must be utilized in order to stay relevant. And finally, we have Feats such as Natural Spell that are requirements to fully access a Class Feature, without which the before mentioned class would never go without. Pathfinder Saga Edition aims to replace all Feat Taxes with viable, balanced options by doing 1 of 3 things.
-Option 1-Prerequisite Feats such as Point Blank Shot will be rolled into other feats, or made into Mechanics of the Game that never need to be chosen separately to work. For example, Point Blank Shot would cease to exist. Instead, any Ranged Attack, including spells that require Attack Rolls, made within 30 Feet would receive a +1 to Hit and Damage.
-Option 2-Feats that are too good, and indeed almost necessary, would be again replaced or baked into the system. For example, Power Attack, Piranha Strike, Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance, Deadly Aim, and Combat Expertise are all examples of Feats that certain Builds must take to be relevant. Feats such as these will be made into Combat Options, such as all Characters who make a Melee Attack can choose to Power Attack, taking a scaling -X to hit to receive a +X to Damage. Any Finessable Weapon automatically uses Dexterity to determine To Hit and Damage, and much like Power Attacking Strength based characters, can choose to Precisely Strike for a scaling -X to hit to receive a +X to damage. In addition, all Characters can choose to receive a scaling -X on all Attack Rolls that round in order to receive a +X to Armor Class(Or Reflex Defense).
-Spells-Pathfinder, and indeed all prior editions of a D20 based DnD game, have had numerous spells throughout their existence. Some, such as Magic Missile and Fireball, have become iconic attack spells that no self respecting Wizard would go without. Others, such as Teleport and the numerous Divination based spells, change the game on a fundamental level, completely changing the options open to the Characters, and opening up the world to reality changing possibilities. However, this power comes with great risk, risks such as;
-Unbalancing the Game-
-Taking other Character's Role-
-Trivializing Encounters-
-Making essential parts of the game no longer relevant-
Pathfinder Saga Edition aims to both reduce the overall spell bloat inherent in the system, restore Magic to its mysterious nature, and promote balance by the following;
-Reduce the number of Spells in the Game-
-Continue Vancian Casting, but with Skill Rolls playing a part in the Casting-
-Cut out some spells, such as Teleport, that completely nullify large aspects of the game-
-Reduce Magic's impact upon class's such as the Fighter and Rogue, whom in Pathfinder and previous editions could be entirely replaced through magical means-
Again, the aim is not to "nerf" Casters, but to bring them more in line with the power of the other classes, while still adding a new element into the game that does not diminish Magic.
-Class Imbalance-Though wildly speculative in nature, and indeed ever changing depending upon whom is asked, there is a perceived Class Imbalance in the system, both through Class's witch have had their Primary Roles replaced, or Class's that have only limited viability in certain situations, thus lowering the Player's involvement in the game at hand. Pathfinder Saga Edition seeks to change that by;
-Introducing New Mechanics-Some Class's, such as the Fighter and Rogue, will receive all new mechanics to boost their Combat Potential, as well as new Out of Combat Abilities to help with the perceived imbalances in the Class.
-Redefining Existing Mechanics-Some Class's are defined by their Class Features, such as a Druid's Wildshape, or a Rogue's Trapfinding. Pathfinder Sage Edition aims to revamp and improve upon these features by adding new options, or modifying existing features to bring them more into line.
-Ability Score's and Bonuses-Pathfinder has a large list of stackable bonuses, as well as 6 Primary Attributes. However, through different options inherent in the game, these Bonuses can grow to staggering amounts, raising Ability Scores into ridiculous numbers, creating nigh unstoppable Characters that are both disruptive and imbalanced. Magic Items, Spells, High Point Buy combined with Racial Modifiers, whatever the reason Pathfinder Saga Edition aims to lower the amount of bonuses in the system. By doing so, I hope to achieve;
-Ability Score Significance-In the current game, Ability Scores are always boosted through Magic and Race to be as high as possible, to in turn make the Character as powerful as possible. Under Pathfinder Saga Edition, the different bonuses one could stack onto an Attribute would be lowered, reducing total bonuses and making those high Attributes much more special, as well as meaningful. It will be one thing for an Orc Warrior to have a Strength of 18, but when the Characters encounter an Ancient Dragon with a Strength of 30, it will truly seem powerful and beyond the normal scope of what is achievable, hopefully reclaiming the epic feel of the Creature.
-System Mastery-By lowering the total bonuses available, as well as the heights to which Attributes can be raised, Pathfinder Saga Edition would aim to have less math for the Player to worry about. Less Bonuses to add, or Penalties to subtract, can lead to less confusion and mistakes, making the System easier for both Veterans and New Players alike. The gap between a Player with full System Mastery, and one whom is completely new to the game, would be reduced, leading to more well balanced Characters without glaring flaws, such as a Fighter built with too little bonuses to Attack Rolls, thus lowering his viability in Combat.
-Magic Items- Currently, Magic Items feel less magical, and more like requirements. Numerous times we have seen Characters that simply are not viable without the Big 6 Items(Stat Boosters, Deflection Rings, Cloaks of Resistance, Amulet Nat Armor, Magic Weapon, Magic Armor). Beyond these required items, other items that would normally feel Magical and Unique are passed over, as they do not provide the mechanical advantage needed for Characters to survive. Pathfinder Saga Edition aims to change this by;
-Eliminating the Big 6-The bonuses acquired from the Big 6 would no longer be necessary, whether by combining existing mechanics to make them obsolete, or by eliminating requirements and changing the nature of Magical Items such as the requisite +1 to Weapons and Armor before they can be further enchanted. No longer would you be required to have a Ring of Protection +3 and a +5 Flaming Longsword. Under this revision, a Longsword can simply be a Flaming Longsword, with additional Enchantments placed as time and money permit.
-Lowering Mechanical Bonuses-By lowering the Mechanical Bonuses available through Magic Items, Pathfinder Saga Edition seeks to both increase the importance of each Character's natural Attributes and Skill, as well as lowering item dependency, thus encouraging Players to use Unique and Flavorful items that would be more fitting, but in previous Editions impractical.
-The Allure of Magic-Magic is mysterious, subtle, world changing. Magical Items should embody that ideal. This system seeks to promote that by making each Magical Item unique and interesting, with items being chosen more for roleplaying reasons than pure mechanical advantage. No longer would you need to discard your Father's sword in order to have the +5 Sword required by game mechanics. Your Father's Sword could grow with you, acquiring Magical Abilities throughout the Campaign for roleplay reasons.
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If you stuck through it and read it all, I appreciate it! Any input and advice would be much appreciated! I plan to begin with the basics of the game, such as Attack Rolls, AC, Saves, and other things such as that and move on from there.
Advice? Dump the Condition Track, Damage Threshold mechanics, and anything specifically relating to them and don't look back. There are several builds with the system that allow for 1-2 round kills and it ultimately encourages these builds since they're so damn effective.
It sound like a new edition of pathfinder. I would be very interested in seeing it and agree with a lot of points. If you pull it off you may want to get it published for download.
Thanks for the swift responses! Indeed, I realize this is very ambitious for one person, but I will do my best regardless. And I agree on the Condition Track, that encouraged cookie cutter one shot builds that I do not wish to see return. So any further suggestions? How does the community feel of incorporating both Reflex, Will, and Fort defenses as well as turning Armor into DR? And how to make crossbows useful again. Ill post my ideas in 8 or so hours when I.get home!
I think Saga is by far the best d20 because it's so much simpler than all the other ones.
I didn't go through the trouble of turning classes into Talent trees, but I took the hint of significantly reducing the number of classes down two six. In addition to barbarian, fighter, ranger, and rogue, there's also two spellcasting classes. However, I use the psionic system rather than the Saga system, that seemed much easier to do.
The best thing in Saga is grapple. I just kicked PF grapple completely and replaced it with a Pin combat maneuver.
And Spellcasting...what can really be done to bridge the gap? My premise is to cut down the spell list and put actually ending the fight more in the hands of the martials.
1. Do you intend to make the system talent oriented like saga does? Or do you want to maintain the set class progression the way pathfinder does? I say this because the reason I stopped running saga, was not because I didnt like the system, but because it was very work intensive to gm at anything but really low levels. Digging hundreds of talents to find the ones that fit is harder then choosing a class and archetype. Certain fan made tools make that much easier, but the truth is, the harder it is for the gm to prep his game, the less likely the game is to happen.
2. "Again, the aim is not to "nerf" Casters, but to bring them more in line with the power of the other classes, while still adding a new element into the game that does not diminish Magic."
I think this statement is a little dishonest. Your aim is in fact to reduce the power of casters in the game. And thats an ok goal. But you should be upfront about it. You cant pull out all the spells that cause imbalance and then say you arent reducing the power of casters. You are. But again, thats not an unreasonable design goal, you just need to understand that it is a departure from the games tradition, and approach it as such.
In particular you should look at narrative power as opposed to direct power. What I mean is, the real problem with spells is less about their ability to do stuff well its that they can change the situation in which the party is acting. Mundane characters and abilities act within the situation they are given. Skills, combat abilities and other mundane aspects of characters can help you resolve a situation, but thats it. Magic, and supernatural abilities tend to allow you to change the situation to your likeing.
For instance, the party is trying to sneak into a castle. The rogue can try and sneak into the castle with stealth, or talk his way past the guards with bluff, this is acting within the situation. The wizard can cast fly and fly in through an 8th story window bypassing the guards, or cast dominate person on the guard and simply walk past him. Thats narrative power in the encounter scale.
At the large scale things like teleport, wish, etc can completely change the nature of a campaign, not just a single encounter. The fighter walks through the evil woods fighting monsters as he goes. The wizard teleports past it, or uses overland flight to go over it. This is large scale narrative power.
What you need to decide is how much narrative power you want to leave casters (or none if thats your answer) and approach your spell design from there. You may find you want to drastically reduce what can be done at all with magic, and again thats fine, but you should approach your design from that standpoint and adapt accordingly. You might decide for instance that a wizard should have to rely signifcantly more on class abilities like everyone else, and spells be only a portion of what he is capable of.
3. Single attacks:
Unlike star wars, in pathfinder/fantasy, there are monsters with ALOT of attacks, sometimes varied attacks. One attack being the norm works in a world where the vast majority of characters are humanoids using weapons. You should think carefully how you plan to incorporate things like the several different kinds of natural attacks a dragon has into your combat system.
And Spellcasting...what can really be done to bridge the gap? My premise is to cut down the spell list and put actually ending the fight more in the hands of the martials.
You might want to consider rebuilding the magic system from the ground up. I am looking at that myself. And I will most likely start with the super genius games Riven Mage and go from there. They have a few basic 'riven spells' that they can pour more or less 'flux' into for greater or lesser effects.
I think just hacking away at the spell list is a very poor answer, you will have caster classes left without a real role to fill, or casters will end up the second fiddle that martial characters can end up being now. You dont want to go the other way and make the casters the supporting cast of the martial characters. So if you want to drastically cut down what casters can do, make sure you modify the classes so they still contribute the same as everyone else. Otherwise you'll have a 'pathfinder' system where no one wants to be a wizard or cleric, which presumably is a bad thing.
Very bad indeed! I appreciate the input. Will post a more detailed reply in a few hours. You are right about nerfing casters. I suppose a better way to phrase that is I want to shift the power of magic to a much more subtle approach, while not impacting the playability of casters.
As for Talents, I was thinking more a combination of the two systems, without adding too much complexity.
I really enjoyes the way Force Powers were acquired and used in Saga, with a skill roll dictating the power of the effect. How does the community feel about a similiar system with magic?
Firstly, majorly interested in following this since I loved Saga to an unhealthy degree(name might be an indicator), so dot.
Secondly, I liked using skill based magic systems(particularly for the nat 20 power pool refresh) butI would not require feats to gain access to force powers(or at least make it non-mandatory).
Firstly, majorly interested in following this since I loved Saga to an unhealthy degree(name might be an indicator), so dot.
Secondly, I liked using skill based magic systems(particularly for the nat 20 power pool refresh) butI would not require feats to gain access to force powers(or at least make it non-mandatory).
If he makes a "wizard class", using feats will work fine, provided he grants it as a "bonus feat" to the caster class at levels where they should gain spells known.
I did this with a telepath class I did ages ago for a psionic/sci fi game using the saga rules.
Im thinking Magic would be split into two paths. You would have a power progression, much like Pathfinder has now, where u gey some spells for free, such as your Fireballs, Invisibility, Magic Missile and such. Then you would have Rituals, the powerful world changing effects we associate with high level spells, such as Gate, Wish, most spells above.5th lvl. You would recieve very very few of these, they would be hard to cast, and they would have drawbacks upon your character such as aging or temporary ability damage. Thoughts?
Im thinking Magic would be split into two paths. You would have a power progression, much like Pathfinder has now, where u gey some spells for free, such as your Fireballs, Invisibility, Magic Missile and such. Then you would have Rituals, the powerful world changing effects we associate with high level spells, such as Gate, Wish, most spells above.5th lvl. You would recieve very very few of these, they would be hard to cast, and they would have drawbacks upon your character such as aging or temporary ability damage. Thoughts?
As long as rituals are not part of class progression but aquired in a different way (like feats). I really am opposed to mandatory class abilities having drastic drawbacks in order to use them. In the end either players find a way around these drawbacks or they dont use them, either way, its a waste, and a form of (in my opinion) false advertising. 'Sure you can do this totally awesome thing, but its going to half kill you...and make you sort of useless for half the session while you recover'.
I'd prefer they get left out entirely then have some sort of horrible consequence.
As for the rest of the spells, I think you need to look at what you want magic to be able to do, and go from there. Right now magic can pretty much do everything, and thats the problem. At least in your 'core rules' decide on a handfull of things divine and arcane magic is supposed to do. Make a set of spells that do those things. They could be like force powers if you prefer, but I would be cautious making them skillchecks.
There is a very delicate attack bonus to defense bonus balance in saga edition. The one attack per round thing demands that. But skill checks progressed differently then attack bonuses, and that threw the math of the whole system off. At low levels Use the force was WAY to high compared to defenses, and at very high levels you had to be super optimized in it to have a reasonable chance of success.
So if you do tie it to skills, make sure skills progress in a similar way to attack bonuses.
Personally I'd create a magical attack bonus, that is similar to base attack bonus, and have full casters progress like a fighter, and partial casters progress like a rogue.
If rituals have levels and you're using the saga skill progression, you can tie them to ranks in the appropriate skill, where ranks equal the level you gain access to said ritual level.
I was actually considering.tying it to spellcraft rolls. How wouls you suggeat the progression go?
The actually progression doesnt matter as long as it matches attack rolls. There was a considerable problem in saga edition with force powers at low levels. At first level with skill focus use the force you got +5 (trained)+half your level (0 at 1st) + 5 for skill focus + ability score. Thats WAY too high to start. It then proceeds at only 1/2 level where as defense bonuses proceed at +1 per level. So eventually at high levels its too low.
It should have proceeded at the same pace that attack rolls do, thats why I am suggestion a Magical version of BAB.
Kolok, how about using concentration checks? Caster Lvl plus abilitu modifier?
That could work, just make sure you include ways to increase it similar to attack abilities. IE if you have the fighter with weapon training, weapon focus and a +5 sword, the wizard should have magical training, magical focus, and a +5 staff or something.
Fair point. I am also considering replacing AC and Saves with Fort, Refl, and Will Defense. Thus in combat, the Fighter may swing at a Dragon, comparing his roll to its Refl Defense to hit, the Wizard would compare his roll for Dominate Monster to its Will Defense, and the Rogue attempting to poison it with a sneak attack would compare his roll to both Refl and Fort Defense. The goal here would be to streamline combat by taking out saving throws, and making each action feel more in the players control.
Fair point. I am also considering replacing AC and Saves with Fort, Refl, and Will Defense. Thus in combat, the Fighter may swing at a Dragon, comparing his roll to its Refl Defense to hit, the Wizard would compare his roll for Dominate Monster to its Will Defense, and the Rogue attempting to poison it with a sneak attack would compare his roll to both Refl and Fort Defense. The goal here would be to streamline combat by taking out saving throws, and making each action feel more in the players control.
I cringe at a level 1 Jedi with +13 in Use the Force against a non-Jedi character with a 12 or 13 Will Defense.
SWSE bonus progression is +1, +2, +5, +10 escalates too quickly. It probably should be more like +1, +2, +3, +4 (or +5).
Much like Martials going off of BAB, Casters will go off of Caster Level. Caster.Level plus primary casting stat will be rolled against the appropriate Defense. While skill based Magic such as Saga would be ideal, im unsure how to implement the idea without going against the goal of streamlining dice rolls, as that would just add another roll onto casting Magic. Thoughts?
Much like Martials going off of BAB, Casters will go off of Caster Level. Caster.Level plus primary casting stat will be rolled against the appropriate Defense. While skill based Magic such as Saga would be ideal, im unsure how to implement the idea without going against the goal of streamlining dice rolls, as that would just add another roll onto casting Magic. Thoughts?
I'm not sure I understand the question. Using Saga rules, you make one roll (use the force or in your proposal, a magic attack roll) and compare it to the appropriate defense.
Using (force) lightning, as an example, you roll use the force (magic attack roll) and compare it to their Reflex Defense. If it equals or succeeds, they take 8d6 damage. If it misses, they suffer half damage.
Somewhat on topic, anyone else notice the WotC Saga board just disappeared? I was gonna link some of the adjusted stuff from there but sadly its all gone now...
Will be updating my take on Defenses tonight, as well as a brief example of how I envision play under this system. Defenses...everyone add full level plus class bonus, or should they scale with class? Example being a fighter gets full level to Fortitude, but only half level to Will, whereas a Wizard would be the opposite. Thoughts?
The actually progression doesnt matter as long as it matches attack rolls. There was a considerable problem in saga edition with force powers at low levels. At first level with skill focus use the force you got +5 (trained)+half your level (0 at 1st) + 5 for skill focus + ability score. Thats WAY too high to start. It then proceeds at only 1/2 level where as defense bonuses proceed at +1 per level. So eventually at high levels its too low.
It should have proceeded at the same pace that attack rolls do, thats why I am suggestion a Magical version of BAB.
I like this idea. Perhaps have a BAB and a Magic Attack Bonus (MAB). Again, it could be tied to hit die: d10/12 with a 1/2 MAB; d8 has a 3/4 MAB; and d6 has full MAB.
Further, you could go the 4e/Power Attack route and have growing feats: every X levels, increase the bonus by 1.
Keep up the good work, everyone. Like RavingDork, I am thoroughly interested in the systems and this thread.
Somewhat on topic, anyone else notice the WotC Saga board just disappeared? I was gonna link some of the adjusted stuff from there but sadly its all gone now...
These links might be useful. For the most part, the WotC boards were removed when the licensing lapsed.
Link 1 a WotC community member with a few links on his page. Links contained within work, use them legally and appropriately.
Link 2 SWRPG Index online. I used this once. If I recall, it is effectively an SRD.
Hmmm I both like and dislike the idea of both a BAB and a MAB. Im attempting to streamline the system, not add too much. However, the idea does seem fitting. Ill toy around with it and see what happens. I think im still leaning towards CL being your MAB, but I can be persuades otherwise.
Alright, as promised, here is part 2 of my initial document. Please keep in mind these updates fall in no particular order, simply coming as I choose to write them down. As such, eventually I hope to put them together, edit them, and form what is left into my streamlined core system, if I achieve it. This is a rough draft, and im unsure if I actually like this, which I will explain at the end.
Pathfinder Saga Edition-Defense Scores:
Under the current system, Attack Rolls, whether Magical or Mundane in nature are rolled against a targets Armor Class. In turn, Damage Rolls, or Saving Throws, tend to follow. Under Pathfinder Saga Edition, both Saving Throws and Armor Class would be replaced by Defense Scores, and all Attack Rolls would be compared to them in turn, eliminating another round of dice rolling for saving throws. This also allows spells and effects that before granted bonuses to Saving Throws to instead be replaced by bonuses to Defense Scores, taking away the oft lamented "Big 6" Cloak of Resistance. This makes spells that boost those Defenses to be more useful and widely used.
Defenses would be split into 3 Categories;
-Fortitude Defense-Primarily tested by Poisons, Diseases, and Magical Effects such as Ability Damaging spells. This Defense would be keyed to Constitution, and certain equipment bonuses, as well as class bonuses, could raise this further.
-Reflex Defense-Primarily tested by Attack Rolls, Traps, or Magical Effects that require the target to evade, such as Fireballs and Lightning Bolts. This Defense would be keyed to Dexterity, modified by Class Bonuses, and certain equipment and magical effects.
-Will Defense-Primarily tested by Mind Affecting effects, both Magical and Mundane, such as Fear, Charm Person Spells, or a Dragon's Dreadful Presence. This Defense is keyed to Wisdom, and certain Equipment Bonuses, Class Bonuses, and Class Features could raise this further.
Defense Progression would be based upon the Class, with each class having 3 levels of Defense-Good, Average, and Bad. These would progress as follows;
-Good=10+Class Level+Ability Modifier+Equipment Bonuses+Magical Modifiers
-Average=10+3/4 Class Level+Ability Modifier+Equipment Bonuses+Magical Modifiers
-Bad=10+1/2 Class Level+Ability Modifier+Equipment Bonuses+Magical Modifiers
-For example, a 10th Level Fighter with a 16 Constitution, 14 Dexterity, and 12 Wisdom might have the following Defense Scores.
Fortitude-Good-10+10+3=Base Fortitude Defense of 23
Reflex-Good-10+10+2=Base Reflex Defense of 22
Will-Bad-10+5+1=Base Will Defense of 16
All Classes would have 1 Good Defense and 1 Bad Defense, with some classes having an additional Good or Bad Defense, or an Average Defense.
I do not know how I feel about having 3 progressions. I feel it makes sense, but at the same time, how streamlined is it really? And how arbitrary is it? Using this example, the Fighter has 2 good Defenses and 1 Bad, whereas a Wizard would have 2 Bad Defenses and 1 Good. Other classes, such as the Monk, would have all Good Defenses, and others like the Cleric would have 1 Good, 2 Average. I am concerned about where the balance actually lies. My other option for Defense Scores would be something like this, again using the Fighter as an example.
Note, I give Fighters Good Saves in both Fortitude and Reflex.
Under this change, all Defense Scores Progress at 10+Class Level+Ability Modifier+Class Bonus. The Class Bonus would be the Character's base Save. For Example, lets take that 10th Level Fighter again.
Now all the numbers are higher. In my previous example, assuming we are attacked by a Fighter, a Wizard, and a Rogue using Poison, we have these base numbers under Pathfinder Saga Edition. For ease, we will assume each attacker has a 16 in their primary attacking stat, and no magical, equipment, or feat bonuses.
Fighter Attacking Fighter:
The Fighter has-
-BAB 10
-16 Str
This gives him a base to hit of +13. In my first example, he needs to roll a 9 or better to hit.
In my second example, the same fighter would need to roll a 13 or higher to hit.
In both examples keep in mind I am taking out all numerical plusses from Magic Weapons, so right now, before any new Class Features such as Weapons Training or Feat bonuses such as Weapon Focus, we go from easy to hit to slightly hard to hit. Thoughts?
Poison Rogue attacking Fighter:
The Rogue has-
-BAB 7
-16 Dex
This gives him a base to hit of +10. Lets assume for now that the Poison would simply go off of his to hit-aka I have not begun to look into Poison. I am inclined to make it simply add a +X to the attack roll in reference to Fort Defense. IE +10 against Reflex, +13 against Fort. But I digress.
In my first example he needs to roll a 12 or higher to hit Reflex, a 13 or higher to hit Fort.
In my second example, he needs to roll a 19 or better to hit Reflex, a 20 to hit Fort.
Big difference in the second example.
Wizard attacking Fighter...with Magic!:
The Wizard has-
-MAB(whether its Caster Level or some kind of scaling Magic Attack Bonus)10
-16 Intelligence
This gives him a base to hit with Charm Person of +13.
In my first example he needs to roll a 3 or better to affect the Fighter with his spell.
In the second example he needs to roll a 11 or better to affect the Fighter with his spell.
Again, major difference, though in this case, either way he is likely to succeed against the Fighter's weakest Defense. Thoughts?
I think Saga is by far the best d20 because it's so much simpler than all the other ones.
I didn't go through the trouble of turning classes into Talent trees, but I took the hint of significantly reducing the number of classes down two six. In addition to barbarian, fighter, ranger, and rogue, there's also two spellcasting classes. However, I use the psionic system rather than the Saga system, that seemed much easier to do.
The best thing in Saga is grapple. I just kicked PF grapple completely and replaced it with a Pin combat maneuver.
I wasn't a big fan of the class reduction. I think they went too far. Force Adept and Tech Specialist deserved their classes.
Before I make further posts, I'd like to be on the same page as you, Shadoven.
I was given the impression your intent was to convert Pathfinder to the Star Wars Saga Edition (SWSE) mechanics, a majority of which are already streamlined, with only a handful of problem children.
After reading your more recent posts, I'm getting the impression you're not doing that. Is this the case?
A mix of both, rather. Admittedly, once I get ahold of my Saga books again tomorrow, that may settle some areas and simply require a straight port. At the same time, I am not looking to do just a basic conversion either. Im attempting to take the ideas and inspiration from both, along with my own designs, and produce an entirely new product. Similiar to both systems, but new at the same time.
The main ideas from Saga I am using are Defense.Scores, no iterative attacks, and a streamlined ruleset. The classes would stay the same, with changes made to some, and a hard look would be taken at the skills and magic system.
