Dimension Door + Grapple

[Sloanzilla]

The L12 dwarven fighter in an adventure I'm running has a modified cloak of the mountebank- basically, it allows him to use it as a move action instead of a standard action (and he can use a standard action after).

His favorite trick, which I very much love and support, is to teleport directly above a flying creature and then grapple it as he's plummeting past the monster.

I know it's a rule modification, but I love it so much that I want to keep allowing it, just looking for the best mechanic.

I've been using a fairly easy acrobatics roll to basically control his angle enough to attempt a grapple, and then normal grapple rules (and falling rules at the same time).

Anyone done anything similar? Let's say I teleport 10 feet above a flying demon, what are the rolls for grabbing that booger and taking him down to earth with me?

[Noir le Lotus]

Dim Door says that after the teleportation, your turn ends.

Si even if he can activate it with a move action, he still can't do anything after using it.

[MacGurcules]

Just for reference, the Mythic playtest had an ability called Aerial Assault that let you make a boosted jump check to attack or grapple an enemy in midair. Perhaps look into that when the full book releases this week.

[Sloanzilla]

That's why I clarified- after he uses his cape, he can still take a standard action. So it's a houserule specific to this item, but one I'm comfortable with since it allows martials to do stuff to flying casters.

thanks, I'll look up aerial assault and probably use its rules for something similar.

[Sloanzilla]

I'm wondering - if even I decide he's out of actions that round, he's still a dwarf wearing full plate 20-30 feet or whatever above some flying guy- so something should happen.

[Reynard_the_fox]

So instead of "Rocks fall, party dies," it's "Party falls, Rocs die," huh? I like it, lol.

Depending on whether the creature is aware of him or not, you might have him make a grapple against "flat-footed CMD" - basically their CMD minus their Dex mod. If they are aware, though, there's a chance they might move out of the way and let him just fall - possibly a Reflex save or something, or maybe you just add one of their scores to the Acrobatics or CMB check, or give them an AoO and add to the DC based on the damage if it connects, like a concentration check.

In terms of grabbing them, I think an easy acrobatics check is appropriate. I'd have them make a "charging grapple" - give them +2 on the attempt since they're speeding towards the foe. I think if he does manage to grab them, I would have them both plummet to the ground immediately. If the fall is long enoguh, perhaps there could be an opposed CMB check to try to rotate each other to hit the ground first and thus take more falling damage.

In the end, I think you want to balance the maneuver such that it probably works, but with the potential to go very wrong against a particularly wary or nasty foe. (He's got a Ring of Feather Fall, right? lol) This is a fairly suicidal attack, after all.

[Daniel Turner Zen Archer]

Sloanzilla wrote:

I'm wondering - if even I decide he's out of actions that round, he's still a dwarf wearing full plate 20-30 feet or whatever above some flying guy- so something should happen.

Simple, the dwarf is falling so anything in his/her way takes 1d6 damage per every 10 feet fallen, so if the dwarf fell from 30 feet above the enemy onto said enemy, then said enemy would take 3d6 points of falling damage.

EDIT:

Quote:

Falling

Creatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. Creatures that take lethal damage from a fall land in a prone position.

[Sloanzilla]

thanks for both responses, and lol at "rocs die"
- and I really like Reynard's ideas and will probably use them.

Yeah, I know about falling rules and was doing that already, but was wondering how it might work if I didn't house rule the dimension door part.

1. Dwarf teleports 50 feet above a griffon- plummets down and hits griffin for 5D6 damage and takes that as well. His turn is over.
2. Griffon's turn is up, there's a dwarf on his back, or is there? The dwarf never made a grapple, but he is falling very rapidly right at the center of the griffon's body. It would be strange to not have the griffon impeded or moved.

So even if I decide in future campaigns that dimension door does end the round, I think I'll probably at least have the falling armored dwarf (if he connects) get a bull rush attack to push the flyer down some distance. Unless it is a huge flyer.

Oh, and no feather falling ring- he's just crazy and has a lot of hit points.

[Mathius]

If he uses the cape and is already in reach of creature I would have there be no check and he can grapple as normal. If the dwarf is not in range right away I would have the dwarf roll his fly skill vs the targets touch AC. If he makes the check he can either create mid collision that will do falling object damage to both creatures or fall close enough to have chance to grapple but not take the falling object damage. If he falls more the 20 feet I would grant charge benefits to him. Against winged foes of his size or smaller the collision itself forces the foe to make a DC 25 fly check or fall. Against larger creatures with wings I would allow them to fly while grappled if they can make the DC 15 fly check to hover. If the dwarf pins his winged for then they both fall. Against non-winged foes his only chance to bring them down is if his weight goes over there heavy load limit.

Enlarge person will multiply his weight by 8 and he could add more weight with a belt loaded down with charms that are actually shrunk items.

[Mathius]

Against dragons or air elementals this tactic will be difficult to pull off but a caster using the fly spell could easily find himself over his max load.

[Gauss]

Sloanzilla, you are making two house rules, not just one.

First, the already acknowledged standard action after a D-Door.
Second, you cannot D-Door to a midair location unless the dwarf can fly. (CRB p209) So you must be house-ruling this as well.

With that said, using those two house rules the dwarf shouldn't be in control of his falling. There should be a reflex save on the part of the creature. Successful save = no attack possible via the dwarf since they have not collided. Failed save allows the dwarf an opportunity to make a grapple check against the creature as they collide.

The basis for this is the falling object rules on CRB p443 since the dwarf most closely resembles a falling object in this case. However, this is also a house rule. :)

As part of the collision the creature would also need to make a fly check as per the mid-air collision rules in the fly skill.

Summary: Assuming your house rules there are several steps.
1) Reflex save by target creature under the falling creature based on the falling object rules on p443 (but still a houserule).
Success means no impact.
Failure means impact and the appropriate damage is taken by both parties. (Maybe halved since neither is a really hard object like the ground.)
2) Assuming 1 was a failure, Grapple check by the falling creature. Failure results in continuing the fall.
3) Assuming 1 was a failure, Fly check by the target creature. Failure results in falling to the ground (for both parties).
4) Finally, assuming 2 and 3 were successes, the falling creature is now hanging from a creature. Proceed with grapple rules normally in subsequent turns.

Thus, there are now 3 house rules to enable this to happen. The action after the D-Door, teleporting to an unsupported environment, and how to resolve whether or not there is an intersection (collision) between the two creatures.

- Gauss

[Sloanzilla]

wow, didn't know you can't teleport to air- heh- I'm gonna keep houseruling it up until I can make this happen. If a dwarf wants to kamakazi attack- I'll find a way to make it work.

I generally agree with your order, Gauss, but I do think there's a chance it would catch the flyer off guard. (so a reflex save with some penalty)- and certainly there would be a penalty to the fly check for #3.

Also, this scenario has also popped up without dimension door. I had another player jump off of the top of Harrowstone on top of a stirge that was flying near the ground. I have players that like jumping off of stuff.

I just love it from a rule of cool visual. A flying Erinyes has the entire party pinned. A spiky dwarven ball of metal says "I got this lads" and vanishes in a puff of smoke- only to appear 30 feet above the Erinyes. Shouting a dwarvish battlecry/drinking song, he barrels into her, knocking her down to the ground where she is met by the other three party members.

The dwarf stands up a few minutes later, spits out a tooth and a gob of devil flesh.
"Damn archers!"

[Gauss]

There is no reflex penalty for being flat-footed. Nor is there a penalty for being flat-footed and having to make a fly check. But, you could house rule those as well.

There is a penalty to CMD for being flat-footed. :)

- Gauss

[Sloanzilla]

Well, the penalty to the fly check would be "you just got hit by 300 pounds of dwarf and metal"

I suppose you could even throw in a perception check- does the erinyes look up to see the plummeting dwarf, or is she too focused on shooting people down below?

This kind of stuff is what's fun about pen and paper games, after all. I had to come up with on the fly houserules for creative uses of the tree feather token last weekend.

[Gauss]

The 300 pounds of dwarf and metal is already the basic description of:

CRB p96 wrote:

Collision While Flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.

So I assumed you were trying to penalize the flier due to being unaware.

- Gauss