I am not thinking spell-less ranger so much as only knowing a few spells each level but casting them faster, being able to do front line combat is hard when you spend the first two rounds of combat buffing yourself.
So more like the Arcanum abilites of the various MCAs, granting a few spells of say 1st-5th level as spell-like abilites. We could narrow it to up to 4th level ranger spells, plus a choice of more rogue-esque spells as listed in the current Spellcasting ability.
#DARK STALKER
I feel this is overpowered. Looking at first level and comparing to a rogue, you have +1 BAB, +2 Fort save, 2 extra hit points, better armor and weapons, all at the cost of 2 skill points. This trend continues; basically you have as much or more abilities than the rogue in addition to having the core values of the ranger. Ok, the rogue is underpowered, but still this needs to lose something. Some abilities can come in later (sneak attack, rogue talents), but I don't think this will be enough. I think the dark stalker must give up something major - animal companion, spells, or combat style.
Starfox, of course this has better BAB, Fort, HP, armor, etc. It's a Ranger primary! Thus the d10, Ranger saves, Ranger skill points, armor, etc. Have you been following what we do here? We add in secondary class features like adding in archetype features. As there is Rogue is only one step below the Ranger in this case, we don't just suddenly drop everything to rogue level. This is a Ranger with Rogue features. If the Rogue had d6 for HD, and only 2 + Int for skill points, the Dark Stalker would have d8 HD and only 4 + Int for skill points. However, there are times that we have lowered one of these aspects to that of the secondary when warrented, which I don't think it is in this case.
You may want to read our Guidelines on the wiki to familiarize yourself with our swapping mechanics and processes.
The rest of your comments I'll have to get to later, gotta go! :D
I am not thinking spell-less ranger so much as only knowing a few spells each level but casting them faster, being able to do front line combat is hard when you spend the first two rounds of combat buffing yourself.So more like the Arcanum abilites of the various MCAs, granting a few spells of say 1st-5th level as spell-like abilites. We could narrow it to up to 4th level ranger spells, plus a choice of more rogue-esque spells as listed in the current Spellcasting ability.
Exactly, have a list of spells for each level that he can choose from gaining a max of 3 per spell level that he can cast up to 4 times per day combined. Or something like that.
#Rogue Cleric
As it stands, it more a Cleric/Rogue.
This was always intended to be Cleric/Rogue, sorry if that didn't come trough. The problem is that there's already a cleric/rogue MAC.
As for the abilities, I'll look at them again, but the rogue abilities gained are quite modest except for the skill points. You get Evasion, a weak sneak attack (save and restricted targets), and 4 rogue talents. For this you trade medium (and very easily heavy) armor, as well as one spell per level. You change roles from a support/frontline class to a support/scout class.
#Dark Stalker
The first level was just a blatant case in point; I feel the dark stalker stretches power limits overall, as I stated in the later part of what you quoted. Actually, it hasn't yet got the things I suggested removing at 1st level - animal companion, spells, or combat style all come later. So obviously my fix would not actually affect 1st level performance.
But power balancing is hard without actual playtest; just watch the playtest boards her right now!
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If I can't have my true shapeshifter class otherwise, I'll make it myself.
It is not MAC, and thus not applicable for this project, but you might want to look at my Shape Dancer AT for the summoner or Shapeshifter Bloodline for the sorcerer as takes on a shapeshifters for pathfinder.
If I can't have my true shapeshifter class otherwise, I'll make it myself.It is not MAC, and thus not applicable for this project, but you might want to look at my Shape Dancer AT for the summoner or Shapeshifter Bloodline for the sorcerer as takes on a shapeshifters for pathfinder.
Starfox are you talking about not being applicable as a Hybrid for the ACG, or as an MCA here, because here is included the part you cut from Bardess' quote:
Actually, their wish list made me decide to create the Metamorphic Thespian (Summoner/Bard) at last. If I can't have my true shapeshifter class otherwise, I'll make it myself.
[Emphasis mine] As a Summoner/Bard MCA it is abolutely applicable to this project.
Hi, this is my first post. I really enjoy the idea of MCAs. But, um, I noticed there wasn't anything that resembled what I want to play - a summoner/magus, that is really able to focus on battling alongside the Eidolon. If you guys could help me with this, even just a couple balance ideas, that would be awesome.
Bonded Warmage(working title)
Primary: Magus
Secondary: Summoner
I have this idea where the Magus uses the power afforded to him by the outsider bond to form the Eidolon into something that is an extension of his very being, so he can use the weapon augmentation ability to apply things to both him and the Eidolon. This is still a rough idea, obviously.
#Rogue Cleric
As it stands, it more a Cleric/Rogue.This was always intended to be Cleric/Rogue, sorry if that didn't come trough. The problem is that there's already a cleric/rogue MAC.
As for the abilities, I'll look at them again, but the rogue abilities gained are quite modest except for the skill points. You get Evasion, a weak sneak attack (save and restricted targets), and 4 rogue talents. For this you trade medium (and very easily heavy) armor, as well as one spell per level. You change roles from a support/frontline class to a support/scout class.
Its MCA not MAC, th latter is a hamburger. :D
We'll, if it's supposed to be a Clr/Rog, then that makes more sense. I was under the impression you wanted a Rog/Clr, as you called it Rogue/Cleric. The question is, are you wanting a Clr/Rog or a Rog/Clr?
If Clr/Rog, what is the Divine Agent not have that you are looking for. We have other MCA with the same Primary/Secondary combos, but this one would need to be diferent enough to warrant it. IS there a different aspect you are looking for? Once we figure all this out, then we can move forward with your build.
Hi, this is my first post. I really enjoy the idea of MCAs. But, um, I noticed there wasn't anything that resembled what I want to play - a summoner/magus, that is really able to focus on battling alongside the Eidolon. If you guys could help me with this, even just a couple balance ideas, that would be awesome.
Bonded Warmage
Primary: Magus
Secondary: Summoner
Welcome Orelius! So you are looking for spell combatant with an eidolon. I don't think we have that combo yet, but we can give it a try. When are you needing this, as currently, we follow a queue sytem here, and you'd need to be slotted into it and wait your turn for us to work on your concept. Have you got more than just a Mag/Sum mash-up, such as flavor, possible replacement abilities, new class features, etc?
I'm glad you came in with a name too, Bonded Warmage does create the idea of a marmage with a bonded companion of some sort.
Hi, this is my first post. I really enjoy the idea of MCAs. But, um, I noticed there wasn't anything that resembled what I want to play - a summoner/magus, that is really able to focus on battling alongside the Eidolon. If you guys could help me with this, even just a couple balance ideas, that would be awesome.
Bonded Warmage
Primary: Magus
Secondary: Summoner
Heh. Talk about parallel design. I'm working on a Melee Summoner, but it's a Summoner/Fighter that get's diminished spell casting, no SLAs and concentrates on fighting alongside the Eidolon. But a Magus/Summoner could work just as well AND get a nice pool mechanic too....
Hi, this is my first post. I really enjoy the idea of MCAs. But, um, I noticed there wasn't anything that resembled what I want to play - a summoner/magus, that is really able to focus on battling alongside the Eidolon. If you guys could help me with this, even just a couple balance ideas, that would be awesome.
Bonded Warmage
Primary: Magus
Secondary: SummonerWelcome Orelius! So you are looking for spell combatant with an eidolon. I don't think we have that combo yet, but we can give it a try. When are you needing this, as currently, we follow a queue sytem here, and you'd need to be slotted into it and wait your turn for us to work on your concept. Have you got more than just a Mag/Sum mash-up, such as flavor, possible replacement abilities, new class features, etc?
I'm glad you came in with a name too, Bonded Warmage does create the idea of a marmage with a bonded companion of some sort.
I've updated my post. But yeah, I love the idea of weapon augmentation, and... I dunno, I feel this could 'flesh out' the summoner class a bit more.
EDIT: let me clear that up a bit more - I hate when class features do everything for you. With the base summoner, you are a buff-bot attached at the hip to a gigantic pseudo-fighter, and based on how the class is presented, I feel that Summoners should take a much more active role.
Also, this is just an idea - but I would love to flesh it out and show you guys later on. What are you working on now?
# Rogue Cleric
When Starfox wrote Rogue Cleric I think he meant a cleric that has gone rogue, but the bit about it possibly being a cleric of a God of Rogues also threw me a bit...
[EDIT: let me clear that up a bit more - I hate when class features do everything for you. With the base summoner, you are a buff-bot attached at the hip to a gigantic pseudo-fighter, and based on how the class is presented, I feel that Summoners should take a much more active role.
Also, this is just an idea - but I would love to flesh it out and show you guys later on. What are you working on now?
Well, if you've checked the htread, we are currently working on Starfox's Clr/Rog, and taking a look at critiquing the Dark Stalker. We're always runniing one brand new MCA from someone on the thread (which I keep track of in a queue and give update so people know when their concept is on the block), and going over a previous ly created MCA and tweaking it to make it better.
An option would be this: If you want you can always email me to my email (see my profile), and we can flesh things out that way, and in the mean time I can throw you in the queue for placement, and then what we flesh out can be presneted for everyone to work on. Also, if you want, and he wants to, we can include OSW in the emails and we three can flesh it out, as he seems to have some parallel ideas on a Sum/Ftr concept that he seems willing to slide into a Mag/Sum. OSW?
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# Rogue Cleric
When Starfox wrote Rogue Cleric I think he meant a cleric that has gone rogue, but the bit about it possibly being a cleric of a God of Rogues also threw me a bit...
Ooo, a "rogue" Cleric! Starfox, is that what you are meaning? A Cleric that has gone rogue? As in a rogue with really no church, but follows a deity to bring down his god's enemies outside of the Church hierarchy and rules? Flavor is vary improtant for me to beable to conceptualize abilties and features.
Exactly, have a list of spells for each level that he can choose from gaining a max of 3 per spell level that he can cast up to 4 times per day combined. Or something like that.I am not thinking spell-less ranger so much as only knowing a few spells each level but casting them faster, being able to do front line combat is hard when you spend the first two rounds of combat buffing yourself.So more like the Arcanum abilites of the various MCAs, granting a few spells of say 1st-5th level as spell-like abilites. We could narrow it to up to 4th level ranger spells, plus a choice of more rogue-esque spells as listed in the current Spellcasting ability.
I'll see what I can do, Often whan we use that mechanic, its to give a noncaster something a less than the 1/2 caster progression because the 1/2 progression is a secondary class, but in this case its a primary class. We've tried that before and then found it weasier and more fucntional to keep the priomary's 1/2 caster progression. But I get what your' saying, some flavorful splell-like abilties that he can just pop off to aid him in his stalking.
[EDIT: let me clear that up a bit more - I hate when class features do everything for you. With the base summoner, you are a buff-bot attached at the hip to a gigantic pseudo-fighter, and based on how the class is presented, I feel that Summoners should take a much more active role.
Also, this is just an idea - but I would love to flesh it out and show you guys later on. What are you working on now?Well, if you've checked the htread, we are currently working on Starfox's Clr/Rog, and taking a look at critiquing the Dark Stalker. We're always runniing one brand new MCA from someone on the thread (which I keep track of in a queue and give update so people know when their concept is on the block), and going over a previous ly created MCA and tweaking it to make it better.
An option would be this: If you want you can always email me to my email (see my profile), and we can flesh things out that way, and in the mean time I can throw you in the queue for placement, and then what we flesh out can be presneted for everyone to work on. Also, if you want, and he wants to, we can include OSW in the emails and we three can flesh it out, as he seems to have some parallel ideas on a Sum/Ftr concept that he seems willing to slide into a Mag/Sum. OSW?
I... Wow. I don't think i've ever found a more cooperative bunch of people. Alright, I'll send you some ideas once I review the classes more thoroughly. And sure, OSW can help if he wants.
I... Wow. I don't think i've ever found a more cooperative bunch of people. Alright, I'll send you some ideas once I review the classes more thoroughly. And sure, OSW can help if he wants.
We've done this with a few others, and some of the other participants on the thread have also done this amongst themselves. When you do finally email, try to set up your proposal in the MCA format we use when posting them on the thread, with a progression table. Makes it easier to balance and look at the swaps we'll make.
I'd like to bring up something about the Clockwork Mage. The fluff on the wiki says that the construct comes from a Plane of Gears, but I think it would make more sense for it to be something the Mage built - Golarion fluff says Constructs work because the spellcaster powers it with a bound Earth Elemental, and I feel it would make more sense to have the construct be an outsider because it is powered by a particularly powerful Earth Elemental, not because it came from a mechanical demiplane. You could rework it to say the construct folds down into a pocket-sized module once damaged enough or if it loses connection to the caster, instead of going to a different plane.
I'd like to bring up something about the Clockwork Mage. The fluff on the wiki says that the construct comes from a Plane of Gears, but I think it would make more sense for it to be something the Mage built - Golarion fluff says Constructs work because the spellcaster powers it with a bound Earth Elemental, and I feel it would make more sense to have the construct be an outsider because it is powered by a particularly powerful Earth Elemental, not because it came from a mechanical demiplane. You could rework it to say the construct folds down into a pocket-sized module once damaged enough or if it loses connection to the caster, instead of going to a different plane.
Well sure you can re-fluff it to suit your particular needs.
Also, we tend not to pay much attention to aligning with Golarian - we do try to make things universally applicable rather than being constrained by a particular campaign setting's ideologies/physics/cosmology.
I... Wow. I don't think i've ever found a more cooperative bunch of people. Alright, I'll send you some ideas once I review the classes more thoroughly. And sure, OSW can help if he wants.We've done this with a few others, and some of the other participants on the thread have also done this amongst themselves. When you do finally email, try to set up your proposal in the MCA format we use when posting them on the thread, with a progression table. Makes it easier to balance and look at the swaps we'll make.
Well I'm up for being included in the emails, but I'm fairly married to my Melee Summoner concept - while these concepts are *very* similar (I was thinking "Bonded - something") Magus is another kettle of fish. I also have the Judgment Eidolon concept (Inq/Sum or Sum/Inq) in my files.
Also, don't forget El, Purplefixer's Mirrored Blade from the first thread, about, oh, at least 2,500 posts ago. ;)
@Elghinn/Orelius:
Purplefixer's Mirror Blade
Summoner/Ranger. Still soesn't have the teamwork bond I'm looking for, but a /Ftr, /Inq, or /Ranger (maaaaybe a /Cav as a less crazy, non-mounted version of my Abomination/Rider) are all good places to start for my more mundane needs. I'm looking for a Bonded Melee Bruiser that's more punch/pounce, less magic/mystic. But still a Summoner, so yes, a bit magical.
/threadjack
I... Wow. I don't think i've ever found a more cooperative bunch of people. Alright, I'll send you some ideas once I review the classes more thoroughly. And sure, OSW can help if he wants.We've done this with a few others, and some of the other participants on the thread have also done this amongst themselves. When you do finally email, try to set up your proposal in the MCA format we use when posting them on the thread, with a progression table. Makes it easier to balance and look at the swaps we'll make.Well I'm up for being included in the emails, but I'm fairly married to my Melee Summoner concept - while these concepts are *very* similar (I was thinking "Bonded - something") Magus is another kettle of fish. I also have the Judgment Eidolon concept (Inq/Sum or Sum/Inq) in my files.
Also, don't forget El, Purplefixer's Mirrored Blade from the first thread, about, oh, at least 2,500 posts ago. ;)
Ahhhh the Mirrored Blade. I thought we gave up on that one and moved on, as there were tow rival MCAs duking it out, and really, neither of them seemed to find their stride. That's why I built my Tandem Hunter (Rgr/Sum), essentially a hunter wth an eidolon stalker companion, and the ability to create mirror images of himself when the eidolon is not present.
So, if you're going for a Ftr/Sum, OSW, how will it be different than the Summoner General (Ftr/Sum). :D
Summoner/Fighter El.
Doh! Then that's different...how will it be different than the Astral Captain (Sum/Ftr). :D
@Mirrored Blade: Maybe we can resurrect it and do a rework.
And as I said upthread:
Heh. ....a Melee Summoner, but it's a Summoner/Fighter that get's diminished spell casting, no SLAs and concentrates on fighting alongside the Eidolon...
Gaaah. The Astral Captain is also less Eidolon focused. There is just the Melee Summoner and his Eidolon. No bunch. No group.
Well throw it together and we can put you in the queue if you want.
[Emphasis mine] As a Summoner/Bard MCA it is abolutely applicable to this project.
Yeah, I agree completely, sorry if I gave another impression. I have nothing against a bard/summoner MCA. What I meant was that my linked ATs were not applicable as MCAs. I was just trying to give some inspiration by showing how I tried to realize the concept of a shapeshifter in Pathfinder, specifically how I had used a summoner AT as a shapeshifter. It seems Bardess and I have similar tastes for what is fun.
If Clr/Rog, what is the Divine Agent not have that you are looking for. We have other MCA with the same Primary/Secondary combos, but this one would need to be diferent enough to warrant it.
Agreed. The discussion in my original Rogue Cleric post was all about whether or not it was different enough form the Divine Agent to merit a new rogue cleric AT. Quoting myself here; read in this light I think my intention should be clear.
The greatest case against this MCT as I see it is that it fills a hole that is already filled - the Divine Agent is already a Cleric/Rogue AT. The question is if this is different enough to be a separate entry, or if either could be moved to a rouge/cleric MAC. I personally think both this and the divine agent has too much clerical spells to really work as a rogue/cleric MAC.
Again, the first question about the Rogue Clerc is is if it is merited at all. The second question is if it is a workable AT. If it is found not to be merited, perhaps it could be reworked into a Rogue/Cleric AT, but that would need major changes along the lines you suggested in your first post. That is: remove more cleric, add more rogue.
Ooo, a "rogue" Cleric! Starfox, is that what you are meaning? A Cleric that has gone rogue? As in a rogue with really no church, but follows a deity to bring down his god's enemies outside of the Church hierarchy and rules? Flavor is vary improtant for me to beable to conceptualize abilties and features.
We differ a bit in the amount of flavor we want to put into an AT. I see classes/ATs as building blocks for characters, not as ready-made role-playing kits. As such, ATs shouldn't have too much concept - that is something for the player to add to each specific character. That is why I leave it open whether the Rogue Cleric is a cleric of a respectable deity gone rogue or is a faithful cleric of the god of rogues. Both can be the same in mechanical terms. I also enjoy the ambiguity of the name of the AT.
"Rogue Cleric" is the name of the MCA, not a description of this as a rogue/cleric MCA.
IS there a different aspect you are looking for? Once we figure all this out, then we can move forward with your build.
Actually, I mentioned the Rogue Cleric here before I had seen that there were a Divine Agent already in place, and you jumped at it and queued it as a submission. I was flattered by the attention and decided to go forward with my proposal. But I do have other ideas that might fit this project better.
As to the concept, I read the divine agent as a lawful type doing the dirty deeds of his religion, while the rogue cleric is more of a chaotic rebel. Sure neither AT has an alignment restriction, this is just the wibe I get from reading them. The divine agent has trained as a rogue, digging quite deep into rogue class abilities like sneak attack. A true cleric/rogue multiclass. The rogue cleric is more improvisational, adapting clerical abilities to rogue-ish tasks without much actual rogue training. More of a cleric dabbling as a rogue on the side.
Gaaah. The Astral Captain is also less Eidolon focused. There is just the Melee Summoner and his Eidolon. No bunch. No group.
This could also be a monster rider MCA, a Cavalier/Summoner who summons an eidolon to use as a mount.
Edit: I see we already have the abomination rider in the cavalier/summoner niche.
I think your Rogue Cleric concept is more apt to an actual Archetype vs. an MCA, since archetypes tend to inundate only a bit of another classs, while our MCAS are pretty drastic (comparatively) in inundating the second class fully.
So we can either
1) Work on reskinning it into a Rog/Clr; which would mean you'd need to decide what "Cleric" aspects you'd want in the MCA, likely only a 1/2 or hybrid caster, still d8, 6 skill points, etc.
OR
2) If you have another MCA concept ("But I do have other ideas that might fit this project better"), we can work on it. In this case, we'd probably move to the next MCA (ecw1701's Spartan) to give you time to coallate your idea, then have you jump back in right after the Spartan was done. May as well give you time to get your ideas fleshed out first.
I think your Rogue Cleric concept is more apt to an actual Archetype vs. an MCA, since archetypes tend to inundate only a bit of another classs, while our MCAS are pretty drastic (comparatively) in inundating the second class fully.
When I initially presented myself here, I said that my class mixes tended to be 80% one class mixed with 20% of another class and yours were more like 60%/40% - which is basically what you said above.
I have a concept for a rogue/cleric at the back of my head now - my working name is "Saint of Rogues" - but its not ready yet.
Looking at the class combos I've made, ranking them for how much of a mix-up they are, and removing those duplicated here, these are the ones i feel are most up your alley are
Lin Kuei - Monk/Ninja
Battle Sorcerer - Magus/Sorcerer
Warrior Poet - Ranger/Bard
On a different point, would MCAs built from a mix of regular and prestige classes be interesting - like Rogue/Duelist?
Dark Stalker
Here's what I've got for your replacement of the Ranger spellcasting, Browman. As it's essentially 1/2 the number of spells that a ranger gets access to, or can cast, that gives a bit more wiggle room for different abilities. The X,Y,Z, are just place holders for whatever we decide can fit in for replacing the normal ranger spellcasting.
Beginning at 1st level, a dark stalker can cast a small number of divine spells drawn from his list of devotions as a spell-like ability. A dark stalker’s selection of stalker devotion spells is limited to his list of stalker devotions (see below). The save DC for a saving throw against a stalker devotion is 10 + the devotion’s level + the dark stalker’s Wisdom modifier. At 1st level, a dark stalker can cast 1st-level devotions and each subsequent level of devotions every four levels thereafter, up to a maximum of 5th-level devotions at 17th level.
A dark stalker gains access to the following devotions: 1st level—ant haul, aspect of the falcon, call animal, calm animals, charm animal, detect snares and pits, feather step, hide from animals, illusion of calm, keen senses, know the enemy, longshot, longstrider, residual tracking, speak with animals, tireless pursuit, vanish; 2nd level—acute senses, animal aspect, aspect of the bear, badger’s ferocity, blur, cat’s grace, chameleon stride, darkness, forest friend, hunter’s eye, locate weakness; 3rd level—bloody claws, burrow, burst of speed, deeper darkness, instant enemy, invisibility, tireless pursuers; 4th level—animal aspect (greater), aspect of the stag, commune with nature, displacement; find quarry, tree shape; 5th level—aspect of the wolf, freedom of movement, invisibility (greater), terrain bond.
At 1st level, a dark stalker may select one 1st–level spell from his list of devotions to prepare as his 1st–level devotion.
At 5th level, a dark stalker may select one 2nd–level devotion to prepare as his 2nd–level devotion.
At 9th level, a dark stalker may select one 3rd–level devotion to prepare as his 3rd–level devotion.
At 13th level, a dark stalker may select one 4th–level devotion to prepare as his 4th–level devotion. Also, a dark stalker can now select two devotions each of 1st–, 2nd–, and 3rd–level to prepare as his 1st–, 2nd–, and 3rd–level devotions.
At 17th level, a dark stalker may select one 5th–level devotion to prepare as his 5th–level devotion.
When casting a 1st–, 2nd–, or 3rd–level devotion spell, the dark stalker expends one daily use of his stalker devotion ability, while casting a 4th– or 5th–level devotion spells expends two daily uses of his stalker devotion ability. A dark stalker can cast use his stalker devotion ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 his dark stalker level. A dark stalker can cast his stalker devotions as a swift action, and has a caster level equal to his dark stalker level. This ability and X, Y, Z, replace the ranger’s spellcasting ability.
Now we can either go with this, or if we want, just make the spells spontaneous and really narrow the list to what he needs.
...I have a concept for a rogue/cleric at the back of my head now - my working name is "Saint of Rogues" - but its not ready yet.
Looking at the class combos I've made, ranking them for how much of a mix-up they are, and removing those duplicated here, these are the ones i feel are most up your alley are
Lin Kuei - Monk/Ninja
Battle Sorcerer - Magus/Sorcerer
Warrior Poet - Ranger/BardOn a different point, would MCAs built from a mix of regular and prestige classes be interesting - like Rogue/Duelist?
1) Saint of Rogues: How about I shuffle you back one in the queue, gives you a week or so to get it reay?
2) So we have
a) Lin Kuei - Monk/Ninja (in the queue already, but it was originally a Mnk/Rog, just changed it to Mnk/Nin for you)
b) Battle Sorcerer - Magus/Sorcerer
c) Warrior Poet - Ranger/Bard
What about these already in the queue?
d) “Name” – Mag/Rog (Starfox)
e) Rage Magus – Mag/Bbn (Starfox)
Are yoy wanting to take these out and put in the one's above instead?
3) We don't do MCAs of 1 Class + 1 PrC here. That's not multiclassing. Although, we have on occasion taken abilties and mechanics from certain PrCs to add to MCAs, if the flavor suits it. So no, Multiclass Archetypes have nothing to do with combining a single class and prestige class. The question has come up before, and as we said then, if others want to do that, then start another thread, but it's not something we at Multiclass Prodictions (MCP) are interested in working on at this time.
Scrap everything and put the three above on the queue.
Lin Kuei - Monk/Ninja
Battle Sorcerer - Magus/Sorcerer
Warrior Poet - Ranger/Bard
The Rage Magus is actually more like a Magus/Sorcerer+Barbarian, and a bit too close to the Pazio bloodrager to work on now.
The Mag/Rog (Crafty Magus) is sort of ready, but less interesting than the three above. Also, there is a Mag/Rog on the wiki already, the Relic Hunter.
The Rogue/Cleric (in my mind already renamed to saint of sinners) is way too fluid in my mind to be submitted.
Dark Stalker
Here's what I've got for your replacement of the Ranger spellcasting, Browman. As it's essentially 1/2 the number of spells that a ranger gets access to, or can cast, that gives a bit more wiggle room for different abilities. The X,Y,Z, are just place holders for whatever we decide can fit in for replacing the normal ranger spellcasting.
** spoiler omitted **...
I think that should work, though I feel like lead blades and gravity bow should both be on that list.
As for the other abilities, I am not sure they are necessary, this guy has rogue talents, sneak attack, combat style, a form of casting, a pet, good weapons, good HD, lots of skill points
As for the other abilities, I am not sure they are necessary, this guy has rogue talents, sneak attack, combat style, a form of casting, a pet, good weapons, good HD, lots of skill points
Yeah, the dark stalker is kind of bursting with abilities - could use a bit of a lean diet.
Well, let me take another look at it and start with an unaltered Ranger Table and start moving in the abilities from Rogue and see what we can slim down.
Do we want to keep the the ability to choose Favored Enemy as part of the rogue talent selections? I'm thinking no, since he can cast the two spells that grant a favored enemy for a bit, even one that grants a favored terrain. Or we create a "Favored Sneak Attack" ability that combines the two. That's bee done before.
I think having it be part of his spells should work. and yes something should probably be slimed down, or changed to be non-combat abilities.
Scrap everything and put the three above on the queue....
The Rogue/Cleric (in my mind already renamed to saint of sinners) is way too fluid in my mind to be submitted.
So do you want me to move you back one spot and put in ecw1701's MCA to get the Saint of Sinners ready, or do you just want to submit your Lin Kuei now and I'll put Saint of Sinners in one of your bottom spots of the queue?
I've done some reworking, combining of ablities, some different swaps, and her's what I've got. I think there are less abilities all around, and give the MCA a more "darkness" flavor for a Dark Stalker.
Take particular note of the addition to rogue talents, improved ambush, and master stalker. Read it through thoroughly.
While many rangers stalk their prey from blinds or behind bushes, some prefer to seclude themselves in the shadows. Unlike other rangers, dark stalkers are not skilled in combat against specific races. Instead, they have become adept in the art of the sneak attack, which allows them to engage any opponent equally. Through their use of roguish tricks, stealth, and ambush, they can avoid needless injury to themselves or their quarry. While not as adept in various terrains as other rangers, dark stalkers compensate for this shortcoming through sudden and devastating strikes against their foes.
Primary Class: Ranger.
Secondary Class: Rogue.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The dark stalker may select three rogue skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal ranger class skills, one of which must be Disable Device. The dark stalker gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The dark stalker is proficient with all simple and martial weapons plus the hand crossbow, with light armor, but not with shields (except tower shields).
Favored Sneak Strike (Ex): At 1st level, a dark stalker selects a creature type from the dark stalker favored enemies table. He gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against creatures of his selected type. A dark stalker may make Knowledge skill checks untrained when attempting to identify these creatures. In addition, if a dark stalker can catch the creature when it is unable to defend itself effectively from his attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
A dark stalker's attack deals 1d6 points of extra damage anytime the creature would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the dark stalker flanks the creature. Should the dark stalker score a critical hit with a favored sneak strike, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as favored sneak strikes only if the creature is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a dark stalker can make a favored sneak strike that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a favored sneak strike, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The dark stalker must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A dark stalker cannot favored sneak strike while striking a creature with concealment.
At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the dark stalker may select an additional favored enemy. At each such interval, the skill bonuses against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by +2. In addition, the extra damage dealt against each favored enemy increases by 1d6. Thus a dark stalker with three favored enemies would deal 3d6 extra damage against his 1st favored enemy, 2d6 against his 2nd, and 1d6 against his third.
If the dark stalker chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table below. (Note that there are other types of humanoid to choose from—those called out specifically on the table below are merely the most common.) If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the dark stalker's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher. This ability replaces favored enemy and favored terrain.
Stalker Devotions: Beginning at 1st level, a dark stalker can cast a small number of divine spells drawn from his list of devotions as a spell-like ability. A dark stalker’s selection of stalker devotion spells is limited to his list of stalker devotions (see below). The save DC for a saving throw against a stalker devotion is 10 + the devotion’s level + the dark stalker’s Wisdom modifier. At 1st level, a dark stalker can cast 1st-level devotions and each subsequent level of devotions every four levels thereafter, up to a maximum of 5th-level devotions at 17th level.
A dark stalker gains access to the following devotions: 1st level—ant haul, aspect of the falcon, call animal, calm animals, charm animal, detect snares and pits, feather step, hide from animals, illusion of calm, keen senses, know the enemy, longshot, longstrider, residual tracking, speak with animals, tireless pursuit, vanish; 2nd level—acute senses, animal aspect, aspect of the bear, badger’s ferocity, blur, cat’s grace, chameleon stride, darkness, forest friend, gravity bow, hunter’s eye, lead blades, locate weakness; 3rd level—bloody claws, burrow, burst of speed, deeper darkness, instant enemy, invisibility, tireless pursuers; 4th level—animal aspect (greater), aspect of the stag, commune with nature, displacement; find quarry, tree shape; 5th level—aspect of the wolf, freedom of movement, invisibility (greater), terrain bond.
At 1st level, a dark stalker may select one 1st–level spell from his list of devotions to prepare as his 1st–level devotion.
At 5th level, a dark stalker may select one 2nd–level devotion to prepare as his 2nd–level devotion.
At 9th level, a dark stalker may select one 3rd–level devotion to prepare as his 3rd–level devotion.
At 13th level, a dark stalker may select one 4th–level devotion to prepare as his 4th–level devotion. Also, a dark stalker can now select two devotions each of 1st–, 2nd–, and 3rd–level to prepare as his 1st–, 2nd–, and 3rd–level devotions.
At 17th level, a dark stalker may select one 5th–level devotion to prepare as his 5th–level devotion.
When casting a 1st–, 2nd–, or 3rd–level devotion spell, the dark stalker expends one daily use of his stalker devotion ability, while casting a 4th– or 5th–level devotion spells expends two daily uses of his stalker devotion ability. A dark stalker can cast use his stalker devotion ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 his dark stalker level. A dark stalker can cast his stalker devotions as a swift action, and has a caster level equal to his dark stalker level. This ability, trapfinding, and improved ambush replace the ranger’s spellcasting ability.
Combat Style Feats: This is exactly like the ranger’s ability of the same name, except that the dark stalker may only select a combat style feat at 2nd, 10th, and 18th level.
Trapfinding: At 2nd level, a dark stalker gains the rogue’s trapfinding ability.
Rogue Talents: At 3rd level and every three levels thereafter, a dark stalker gains a rogue talent for which he qualifies. A dark stalker treats his level as his rogue level for the purpose of qualifying for talents with level-dependent requirements and calculating the effects of any talent or rogue ability he's chosen.
Alternatively, a dark stalker can learn how to create a snare trap and one other ranger trap of his choice (see the ranger’s Trapper archetype) in place of a rogue talent. At each interval thereafter, the dark stalker can learn another trap in place of a rogue talent. The ranger can use these traps a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 his ranger level + his Wisdom modifier. Once a trap is learned, it can’t be unlearned and replaced with a different type of trap. The dark stalker cannot select an individual trap more than once. This ability and advanced talents replace the combat style feats gained at 6th and 14th level and favored terrain.
Hunter’s Bond (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the dark stalker must select an animal companion, one specifically adept at stealth, such as a small or big cat, an eagle, or similar animal. The following is a list of typical animal companions that meet this stealth requirement: ant (giant), ape, bat (dire), bird, cat (big), cat, (small), chameleon (giant), dog, hyena, elk, gecko (giant), mantis (giant), monitor lizard, ram, rat (dire), roc, scorpion (giant), snake (constrictor), snake (viper), spider (giant), stag, trumpeter swan , vulture (giant), wasp (giant), weasel (giant), wolf. Additional animals may be added at the GM’s discretion.
Ambush (Ex): At 7th level, a dark stalker becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When he acts in the surprise round, he can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action. This ability replaces woodland stride.
Quarry (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that it corresponds to a specific individual creature, not a creature type.
Advanced Talents: At 12th level, a dark stalker can choose an advanced rogue talent whenever he could choose a rogue talent, or when she selects the Extra Rogue Talent feat. The dark stalker adds the following rogue abilities to the list of advanced talents he may select: Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge. A dark stalker must select uncanny dodge before selecting improved uncanny dodge.
Shadow Camouflage (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the dark stalker can use the Stealth skill to hide as long as he is within an area of dim light. A dark stalker cannot however, hide in his own shadow.
Improved Ambush (Ex): At 14th level, whenever a dark stalker uses his ambush ability or he himself is ambushed, he is not caught flat-footed.
Improved Quarry (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that it corresponds to a specific individual creature, not a creature type.
Hide in Shadows (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the dark stalker can use the Stealth skill even while being observed as long as he is within 10 feet of an area of dim light. A dark stalker cannot however, hide in his own shadow.
Master Stalker (Ex): A dark stalker of 20th level becomes a master stalker. He can always move at full speed while using Survival to follow tracks without penalty. He can, as a standard action, make a single attack against a favored enemy at his full attack bonus. If the attack hits, the target takes 10d6 points of extra damage and must make a Fortitude save or become fatigued. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the dark stalker's level + the dark stalker's Wisdom modifier. A dark stalker can choose instead to deal an amount of nonlethal damage equal to the creature's current hit points and the creature becomes exhausted. A successful save negates this damage but not the exhausted condition. A dark stalker can use this ability once per day against each favored enemy type he possesses, but not against the same creature more than once in a 24-hour period. This ability replaces master hunter.
Table: Dark Stalker
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 1st favored sneak strike, stalker devotions (1st), track, wild empathy
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Combat style feat, trapfinding
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Endurance, rogue talent
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Hunter’s bond
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 2nd favored sneak strike, stalker devotions (2nd)
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Rogue talent
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Ambush
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Swift tracker
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Evasion, rogue talent, stalker devotions (3rd)
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 3rd favored sneak strike, combat style feat
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Quarry
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Advanced talents, rogue talent, shadow camouflage
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Stalker devotions (4th)
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Improved ambush
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 4th favored sneak strike, rogue talent
16th +16/+11/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Improved evasion
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Hide in shadows, stalker devotions (5th)
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Combat style feat, rogue talent
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Improved quarry
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 5th favored sneak strike, master stalker
I like it. But I think you have the wrong text for shadow camouflage
Why?
So do you want me to move you back one spot and put in ecw1701's MCA to get the Saint of Sinners ready, or do you just want to submit your Lin Kuei now and I'll put Saint of Sinners in one of your bottom spots of the queue?Scrap everything and put the three above on the queue....
The Rogue/Cleric (in my mind already renamed to saint of sinners) is way too fluid in my mind to be submitted.
I say give Lin Kuei a shot now and put Saint of Sinners on the backburner - after the main 3 I posted. Having trouble even conceptualizing the Saint.
#Dark Stalker
Looks very good. Overall, this now has just the right power level. Some notes and edits remain, and devotions could be streamlined, but overall this looks very good now.
Favored Sneak Attack
Not sure if I misread this earlier or if you changed it a lot, but as written this is weaker than ether sneak attack or favored enemy and leaves room for some of the new abilities below. Looks good.
Personally I always thought favored enemy was a bit too situational and expanded it in my games, and this has that same weakness. But that is my concern, as far as official Pathfinder goes, favored enemy is a good ability and this looks like a good replacement.
Stalker Devotions: [...] When casting a 1st–, 2nd–, or 3rd–level devotion spell, the dark stalker expends one daily use of his stalker devotion ability, while casting a 4th– or 5th–level devotion spells expends two daily uses of his stalker devotion ability. A dark stalker can cast use his stalker devotion ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 his dark stalker level. A dark stalker can cast his stalker devotions as a swift action, and has a caster level equal to his dark stalker level. This ability, trapfinding, and improved ambush replace the ranger’s spellcasting ability.
Looks good. Devotions are Quickened spells, not spell-like as I expected from the discussion above. Interesting as a spell buff to a fighting class. About as powerful as ranger spells - you get fewer of them, but you can use them outside the action economy. I might steal devotions for use with the Saint of Sinners.
Rangers get 4th level spells. This ability extends to 5th level, and the listed 5th level devotions are quite powerful. But I think this is ok - favored sneak strike is weaker than either favored enemy or sneak attack, and this makes up for that.
The cost to use of devotions are now equal to half the level, and you get a pool of 3 + 1/2 his dark stalker level. Wouldn't it be more straightforward to have the cost be one per level, and the pool be 8 + dark stalker level? Basically, double both numbers (with a little extra to account for rounding) to make the system more intuitive? Like this:
"Each day a dark stalker can use a number of spell levels for dark stalker devotions equal to 8 + his dark stalker level. When casting a devotion spell, the dark stalker expends a number of points from his daily dark stalker devotion ability per level of the spell. Using a dark stalker devotion is a swift action, and has a caster level equal to his dark stalker level."
Rogue Talents: [...]This ability and advanced talents replace the combat style feats gained at 6th and 14th level and favored terrain.
I think I'd keep combat style feats as they are and grant a rouge talent every time you'd normally get a favored terrain, but that is pretty minor. Actually, you could allow the dark stalker to keep the combat style feats simply and keep this as is.
Hunter’s Bond (Ex):
I still worry that even a stealth-styled animal companion will be unable to keep up with the dark stalker in Stealth at higher levels. I think these need an escalating Stealth bonus to stay competitive, or perhaps the ability to share the Dark Stalker's Stealth. Something like this perhaps?
Shared Stealth (Ex): If you and your animal companion start and end the turn within 5 ft. of each other and you are using Stealth to hide, the animal companion can share the result of your Stealth roll and need not make a Stealth roll of it's own to use Stealth this round. Your animal companion cannot use shared stealth in a round in which it makes an attack.
Nothing would spoil a dark stalkers day like having an animal companion give away his position!
Also, if an animal companion shares the dark stalkers favored sneak ability (like a ranger's companion shares the ranger's favored enemy ability), that should be noted. You might also want to note that it does not share favored terrains (as the dark stalker lacks favored terrains).
Quarry (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that it corresponds to a specific individual creature, not a creature type.
Improved Quarry (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that it corresponds to a specific individual creature, not a creature type.
We seem to read the original ranger quarry ability differently. "except that it corresponds to a specific individual creature, not a creature type" seems nonsensical to me - the target of quarry is always a specific creature.
Shadow Camouflage (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the dark stalker can use the Stealth skill to hide as long as he is within an area of dim light. A dark stalker cannot however, hide in his own shadow.
Hide in Shadows (Ex): This is exactly like the ranger ability of the same name, except that the dark stalker can use the Stealth skill even while being observed as long as he is within 10 feet of an area of dim light. A dark stalker cannot however, hide in his own shadow.
This is exactly like the ranger ability camouflage and hide in plain sight respectively - the ranger does not have a "shadow camouflage" or "hide in shadows" ability. Also, it should be dim light or darker conditions.
I like it. But I think you have the wrong text for shadow camouflage
Changes Shadow Camouflage and the wording for Hide in Shadows (it's the Shadowdancer's HiPS ability).
Shadow Camouflage (Ex): At 12th level, as long as a dark stalker is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, he can use the Stealth skill to hide, even if the area doesn't grant cover or concealment. A dark stalker cannot however, hide in his own shadow. This ability replaces camouflage.
Hide in Shadows (Ex): At 17th level, a dark stalker can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a dark stalker can hide himself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow. This otherwise functions as and replaces hide in plain sight.
@Starfox
OK, Saint of Sinnners is on the back burner, put up your Lin Kuei.
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Lin Kuei (literally forest demons) are legendary Chinese stealth warriors. Here, it is a monk archetype with ninja-like techniques and a focus on secret fighting techniques. Not as pure of spirit as a normal monk, lin kuei are secret warriors working for a clan or cause and like monks they are all of lawful alignment.
Class
Primary Class: Monk. Secondary Class: Ninja. The lin kuei has all the monk's class features except as noted here. A lin kuei cannot mulitclass as a monk, ninja, or rogue. Rogue multiclassing is prohibited because the ninja is a subclass of the rogue.
Class Skills
The lin kuei's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon Proficiency
Lin kuei are proficient with the cestus, club, dagger, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, short sword, and shuriken. Many lin kuei take up the study of an exotic weapon to gain maximum benefit from their lethal strikes ability.
Bonus Feats
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a lin kuei may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Bludgeoneer[1], Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Distance Thrower[1], Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Nimble Moves[2], Scorpion Style, Throw Anything.
Alternatively, a lin kuei can choose a ninja trick instead of a bonus feat each time he would get a bonus feat. He learns and uses ninja tricks as a ninja of his lin kuei level but cannot pick ninja tricks based on ninja class abilities he does not have, such as sneak attack.
At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Close Quarter's Thrower[1], Gorgon's Fist, Greater Feint, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Mobility, Rapid Shot, Snatch Arrows.
At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Dimensional Agility[1], Dimensional Assault[1], Disengaging Flourish[1], False Opening[1], Medusa's Wrath, Light Step[2], Shoot On The Run, Stunning Fist.
1. ^ a b c d e f g From Ultimate Combat.
2. ^ a b From Advanced Player's Guide.
A lin kuei need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them, but some feats have benefits based on the use of other feats, and these rules still apply.
Lethal Strikes
As he advances in level, a lin kuei gains extra damage with melee and thrown attacks. This extra damage begins at 1d6 at 1st level, and advances by another d6 at level 3 and every third level after level 3, to a maximum of 7d6 at level 18. When the lin kuei strikes an opponent that is unable to use his Dexterity bonus to armor class, he can add the full amount of this to his damage. When striking opponent's in other circumstances, he adds the minimum amount possible, as if all the lethal strike dice came up ones. This extra damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
This replaces flurry of blows.
Secret Technique
The lin kuei have a number of secret techniques. A lin kuei is taught one secret technique from the list below at first level, and gain more secret techniques as he advances in level.
This replaces stunning fist. A lin kuei that takes the Stunning Fist feat but does not know the stunning fist technique does not count lin kuei levels as Monk levels for the benefits of the feat.
Deceptive Moves (Ex): A lin kuei with this technique can use the Bluff skill to feint as a swift action.
Deceptive Shuriken (Ex): As a part of drawing or picking up one or more shuriken, a lin kuei with this technique can make a Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 10 + an opponent's Perception skill bonus to render one opponent flat-footed against his thrown shuriken this round. An opponent with uncanny dodge or who is otherwise immune to being flat-footed is immune to this ability, and repeated uses against the same opponent suffers a -10 penalty. A lin kuei with this ability can also throw Diminutive objects, including small daggers, darts, bolts, arrows and even objects that that are normally harmless (such as playing cards, dice, pebbles, coins) as if they were shuriken. A lin kuei can pick up such objects within reach as a free action that does not trigger an attack of opportunity.
Lethal Flanking (Ex): When you flank an opponent in melee, you can use your full damage from lethal strikes against that opponent. Against opponent's improved uncanny dodge, this ability works when sneak attack would work (see the ninja ability sneak attack). Lin kuei levels stack with the level of any class that provides sneak attack for the purpose of overcoming improved uncanny dodge.
Stunning Fist (Ex): This is the same as the monk's stunning fist class ability. See the note under secret technique for Stunning Fist taken as a feat and used without this ability.
Sudden Charge (Ex): This charge is so sudden that it is hard for the eye to follow. The target charged by a lin kuei with this technique is flat-footed until the end of the lin kuei's current turn. An opponent with uncanny dodge or who is otherwise immune to being flat-footed is immune to this ability. A lin kuei may continue to move after attacking in a charge, up to a total movement equal to twice his speed. Any movement after the charge is completed need not be in a straight line. If this movement ends up in cover or concealment, the lin kuei can try to use Stealth to hide at a -10 penalty.
Note that a flat-footed opponent does not get to make attacks of opportunity unless the opponent has the Combat Reflexes feat.
Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a lin kuei gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A lin kuei's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a lin kuei may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a lin kuei striking unarmed. A lin kuei may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
A lin kuei's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A lin kue's unarmed strike does 1d6 lethal crushing and cutting damage (1d4 for a small lin kuei). A lin kuei can only do nonlethal damage with unarmed attack by taking the standard -4 attack penalty to do so.
This is a modification to the monk's unarmed strike ability.
Second Secret Technique
At 3rd level, the lin kuei may select a second secret technique. This replaces maneuver training.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
Starting at 3rd level, a lin kuei can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A lin kuei with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.
If a lin kuei already possesses uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.
This replaces still mind.
Ki pool
At 4th level, a lin kuei gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a lin kuei's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his lin kuei level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike.
• At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
• At 7th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as cold iron and silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
• At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
• At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a lin kuei can do one of the following:
• Make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a full attack, or
• Increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round, or
• Reroll a failed Bluff, Sleight of Hand, or Stealth check. The lin kuei must take the second result, even if it is worse. A single check can only be rerolled once by means of this ability.
Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
This is the a modification of the monk's ki pool ability.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
At 7th level, a lin kuei can no longer be flanked. This defense denies the ability to sneak attack the lin kuei by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more levels in classes with sneak attack than the lin kuei has in classes with uncanny dodge.
This replaces wholeness of body.
Third Secret Technique
At 9th level, a lin kuei may select a third secret technique. This replaces improved evasion.
Fourth Secret Technique
At 13th level, a lin kuei may select a fourth secret technique. This replaces diamond soul.
Table: Lin Kuei
Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special Lethal Strikes AC Bonus Fast Movement
1st +0 +2 +2 +2 Bonus feat, lethal strikes, secret technique, unarmed strike +1d6 +0 +0 ft.
2nd +1 +3 +3 +3 Bonus feat, evasion +1d6 +0 +0 ft.
3rd +2 +3 +3 +3 Fast movement, second secret technique, uncanny dodge +2d6 +0 +10 ft.
4th +3 +4 +4 +4 Ki pool (magic), slow fall 20 ft. +2d6 +1 +10 ft.
5th +3 +4 +4 +4 High jump, purity of body +2d6 +1 +10 ft.
6th +4 +5 +5 +5 Bonus feat, slow fall 30 ft. +3d6 +1 +20 ft.
7th +5 +5 +5 +5 Improved uncanny dodge, ki pool (cold iron/silver) +3d6 +1 +20 ft.
8th +6/+1 +6 +6 +6 Slow fall 40 ft. +3d6 +2 +20 ft.
9th +6/+1 +6 +6 +6 Third secret thechnique +4d6 +2 +30 ft.
10th +7/+2 +7 +7 +7 Bonus feat, Ki pool (lawful), slow fall 50 ft. +4d6 +2 +30 ft.
11th +8/+3 +7 +7 +7 Diamond body +4d6 +2 +30 ft.
12th +9/+4 +8 +8 +8 Abundant step, slow fall 60 ft. +5d6 +3 +40 ft.
13th +9/+4 +8 +8 +8 Fourth secret technique +5d6 +3 +40 ft.
14th +10/+5 +9 +9 +9 Bonus feat, slow fall 70 ft. +5d6 +3 +40 ft.
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +9 +9 Quivering palm +6d6 +3 +50 ft.
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10 Ki pool (adamantine), slow fall 80 ft. +6d6 +4 +50 ft.
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10 Timeless body, tounge of the sun and moon +6d6 +4 +50 ft.
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +11 Bonus feat, slow fall 90 ft. +7d6 +4 +60 ft.
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +11 Empty body +7d6 +4 +60 ft.
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Perfect self, slow fall any distance +7d6 +5 +60 ft.
I originally wrote on a mediawiki, so when we get closer to finished I can send it in wiki code.
#Lin Kuei
Skill points might be a bit short - Acrobatics, Bluff, Jump, and Stealth are more or less required. I did not use the monk skill list with addons, becasue the lin kuei doesn't have all monk skills.
==Monk/Lin Kuei damage comparison ==
Did a little damage analysis on Lin Kuei vs Monk.
Level Monk Lin Kuei
1 4.55 5.95
6 9 11.9
11 16.5 14.875
16 21.6 20.825
This assumes flurry of blows for the monk and one full lethal strike for the lin kuei, with no extra damage bonuses. AC is such that basic bab has a 75% chance to hit. The lin kuei can potentially do much more damage on a full attack, while the monk benefits more from all kinds of damage bonuses. The lin kuei also keeps mobile while doing this, unlike the static monk.
Starfox covered my confusion with shadow camouflage.
And I made the 1000th post! Woohoo. What say a new thread after Lin Kuei El?