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Alright, here we are on a new thread. As we have so many great posters and collaborators in the current group, I want to lay out the process that will be going on in this thread.
This thread, while dedicated to new MCAs, is also dedicated to getting the unfinalized MCAs (*) on the MCA Wiki closer to their finalized form. All those who join us in this process, know that it will be greatly appreciated by the members of MCP. Your input will allow us to improve our concepts, as well as your own.
As always, new posters, concepts, and ideas are always welcome. With the unfinalized (*) MCAs from the Wiki, we wish to maintain as much of the core concepts and abilties as possible, but we also are seeking any new and awesome ideas that could improve it, and any feedback on balance issues, or whatever you might see as problematic.
The posting process will be as follows, so please attempt to keep to these guidelines as much as possible to maintain a cohesive process.
READ
1) As stated, this thread will focus on 1 new and 1 "unfinalized Wiki" (*) MCA at a time.
2) Each MCA will be worked on until it is "done", as deemed by me or another member of MCP.
3) Please post "concepts" for new MCAs first (not the whole detailed MCA), as holding places, in the following format.
"Name"
Primary: "X"
Secondary: "Y"
These will be placed in the cue as the are posted (including those from myself or any other MCP member), but will not be looked at until they come up in the cue. So, feel free to work on them alone, or amongst yourselves (or even MCP members) via email or whatever until your turn comes.
I'll give the go ahead with each new MCA just to keep things orderly.
I will also post the new MCA cue every so often so everyone knows what's coming up.
4) Only one NEW MCA will be posted at a time. To allow for fairness, if if you've recently posted, let someone else post theirs. So, don't post two MCAs in a row. We would prefer MCA class combos that have not been created yet, so that we don't double up on already existing MCAs. However, we won't interfere in your creativity process, do as you must, but the previous would be most appreciated.
5) I will post the unfinalized MCAs (*) according to alphabetical order on the Wiki, as this will allow for the most diverse approach, otherwise we may get a little bored working on MCAs with the same primary class over numerous postings.
6) If someone pops up on the thread with feedback on an old MCA, that will becomes the next "unfinalized" (*) MCA that we take a look at, even if it is out of alphabetical order, to address any concerns ASAP.
7) As before, please us the "#" to differentiate between the MCA posts, especially with us working on 2 MCAs simultaneously.
Alright, lets get started!
I got a witch racial archetype that could be converted into a witch/summoner MCA without too much trouble.
sounds weird lets see it
*side note as i reviewed Cabal Bravo here are some errors in some spots just so you know before you publish it on the wiki (nothing rule wise.just copy past and name errors)
.
for new possible MCA's
"Silent Hunter"
Primary: Ranger
Secondary: Ninja
I am thinking Ranger who has a Ki pool and some ninja tricks and loses hunters bond
I've compiled all the MCAs from the previous thread that aren't yet on the wiki into an 84 page GoogleDoc. LINK HERE
Possible MCA Idea:
"Dimensional Samurai"
Primary: Samurai
Secondary: Wizard
Currently:
Loses: mount, banner, medium/heavy armor profs, mounted archer, honorable stand, demanding challenge, greater banner, last stand.
Gains: Spell-like and supernatural abilities designed to teleport in combat and a bonus to initiative improving every few levels. However I have attempted to balance it without gaining any spells (this might be frowned upon or even just suited to a non-multiclass archetype).
I think you know what race this is for ;)
Twisted Pact Witch
Primary: Witch
Secondary: Summoner
skills 2 + int, A Twisted Bond Witch may select three summoners skills to add to her class skill list
Witches of the the twisted pact choose to draw their power from an outsider instead of their normal patron source, in a ritual resembling the one a summoner uses to form his bond. Such bonds always shift and mutate the familiar however, so many cease being recognisable from the creature they once were.
Bound Familiar: A Twisted Pact Witch receives Evolved Familiar at first level as a bonus feat.
At 3rd level, she receives Improved Familiar as a bonus feat. She must choose an outsider as a familiar, but she ignores any alignment prerequisites for that outsider. Outsiders bound in this way change their alignment to match that of the witch and lose any alignment subtypes they may have.
This replaces the witches first level hex.
Evolving Bond: As a Twisted Pact Witch grows in power, her bond to her familiar intensifies. Such corruption alters the being in question. at 2nd level and every other level after, the familiar gains an additional evolution point to be added to their total. This functions as the Eidolons evolution pool class feature and the is treated as having it for the purposes of feats. This replaces the patron class feature.
OK first three in the cue are
Twisted Pact Witch – Wtc/Sum (Toaster)
Silent Hunter – Rgr/Nnj (Browman)
Dimensional Samurai - Sam/Wiz (Alfray/Iorthol)
#Twisted Pact Witch
What else Toaster? Any other ideas for the MCA? That's only 2 class feature swaps. What other Summoner class feature might suit the MCA? Bonded Senses? Something Shield Ally-esque? Maybe Life Link replacing the normal familir's Link ability?
Regarding Evolution Bond, you could have it simply grant the Evolved Familiar feat at 2nd and every other level? Unless you are wanting the familiar to choose 2-, 3-, and 4-point evolutions? If so, there needs to be some limitation to the choices allowed.
Could work in the summon monster ability as special hex, greater hex, and grand hex choices? How about a Hex that allows the Summon Monster I ability, usable Int mod per day only, not 3 + Cha mod like a Summoner. It increases by one level each time you choose the hex (max up to SM IV), but each hex would function on its own, essentially a SM I, SM II SM III, and SM IV hex. So she could choose to us SM III or SM II for a particular use, or just have it increase in power permanenetly. OR make the Hex usable 1/day plus 1/day for every 6 MCA levels (max 4/day)?
- Then a Major Hex of SM V usabe 1/day.
- And finally, have a SM VI Grand Hex usable 1/day, but the monsters are special somehow, such as remain for a number of 10 minute increments per level instead of 1 minute per level, or have it 1 minute per level per day and have the minutes not be consecutive, but count in 1 minute increments. Also, maybe allow the monsters as conduits, allowing the MCA to deliver her hexes through her monsters? Just an idea.
Also, we could allow the MCA deliver touch hexes through her familiar, as well as touch spells?
Just some ideas.
Eldritch Cataphract
Primary: Cavalier
Secondary: Magus
Loses Challenge and Banner in exchange for Spell Combat, Spellstrike, and the Medium/Heavy Armor features.
Welcome LastexileO, you are currently 4th in the cue. Have you been following us at all or completely new to the whole concept of Multiclass Archetypes?
I've been poking around here and there. I downloaded the .pdf from the last topic and looked through it. This is some really interesting stuff and I'm really excited to see what other concepts will become available. I'm actually going to ask my GM if I can make a character with one of these classes.
Also my name has a 0, not an O. :D
"0" it is! Welcome and thanks for your interest.
OK first wiki MCA is the
Originally a concept by Birdology a while back, but lets get if closer to finalization.
Primary: Rogue.
Secondary: Bard.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The adept scoundrel selects three bard skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal rogue class skills. The adept scoundrel gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The adept scoundrel is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword, and whip. An adept scoundrel is proficient with light armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
Skullduggery: At 1st level, an adept scoundrel gains a bonus equal to half her adept scoundrel level (minimum +1) on Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, and Sleight of Hand checks. This ability replaces trapfinding and sneak attack +3d6, +6d6, and +9d6.
Bardic Performance: At 2nd level, an adept scoundrel gains the bardic performance ability, and the following performances. This ability replaces evasion.
Influence: At 2nd level, an adept scoundrel can use her performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the adept scoundrel’s performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 6th level, and every six adept scoundrel levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 18th level.
Alternatively, an adept scoundrel can use her performance to demoralize enemies. Each enemy must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the scoundrel’s level + the adept scoundrel’s Charisma modifier) or become shaken for the duration of the performance, plus an additional number of rounds equal to 1/2 the adept scoundrel’s level once it has ended. Using this effect on the same creature only extends the duration and does not create a stronger fear condition. To be affected, an enemy must be within 30 feet and be able to perceive the adept scoundrel’s performance
Influence can use audible or visual components. The adept scoundrel must choose which component to use and what effect to create when starting her performance. This performance replaces the rouge talent gained at 2nd level.
Inspire Competence (Su): At 3rd level, an adept scoundrel gains the inspire competence bardic performance. This performance replaces trap sense.
Dirge of Doom (Su): At 8th level, an adept scoundrel gains the dirge of doom bardic performance. This performance replaces the rouge talent gained at 8th level.
Frightening Tune (Sp): At 14th level, an adept scoundrel gains the frightening tune bardic performance. This performance replaces the rouge talent gained at 14th level.
Brilliant Performance: At 20th level, an adept scoundrel can use her performance to grant a number of allies with 30 feet equal to her Charisma modifier extraordinary inspiration. As long as the performance is maintained, whenever an ally makes an attack roll, ability check, or skill check, he rolls two d20s and takes the better result. Brilliant performance is a mind-effecting effect that relies on audible and visual components. This performance replaces the rogue talent gained at 20th level.
Clever Opportunist (Ex): At 4th level, whenever an adept scoundrel is flanking an opponent, she can choose to gain a +2 flanking bonus on damage rolls against the opponent, or a +2 flanking bonus to her Armor Class against attacks made by the opponent, instead of the normal flanking bonus. Any ally participating in the flanking action also gains this bonus. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Rogue Talents: This ability is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that the adept scoundrel gains a rogue talent at 4th, 6th, 10th, 12th, 16th, and 18th level.
Improved Clever Opportunist (Ex): At 8th level, an adept scoundrel gains the flanking bonus granted by her clever opportunist ability when an opponent is threatened by an ally. An ally gains this bonus only when an adept scoundrel and the ally are flanking an opponent as normal. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
Advanced Talents: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that an adept scoundrel adds the following rogue abilities to the list of advanced talents she may select: Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Improved Uncanny Dodge. An adept scoundrel must select uncanny dodge before selecting improved uncanny dodge. In the case of the Improved Evasion talent, the adept scoundrel must have evasion to select it.
Table: Adept Scoundrel
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Skullduggery, sneak attack +1d6
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Bardic performance, influence +1
3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Sneak attack +2d6, inspire competence +2
4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Clever opportunist, rogue talent
5th +3 +1 +4 +1
6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Influence +2, rogue talent
7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Sneak attack +3d6, inspire competence +3
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Dirge of doom, improved clever opportunist
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Sneak attack +4d6
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Advanced talents, rogue talent
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Inspire competence +4
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Influence +3, rogue talent
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Sneak attack +5d6
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 Frightening tune
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 Sneak attack +6d6, inspire competence +5
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Rogue talent
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Influence +4, rogue talent
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Sneak attack +7d6, inspire competence +6
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Brilliant performance, master strike
OK first three in the cue are
Twisted Pact Witch – Wtc/Sum (Toaster)
Silent Hunter – Rgr/Nnj (Browman)
Dimensional Samurai - Sam/Wiz (Alfray/Iorthol)#Twisted Pact Witch
What else Toaster? Any other ideas for the MCA? That's only 2 class feature swaps. What other Summoner class feature might suit the MCA? Bonded Senses? Something Shield Ally-esque? Maybe Life Link replacing the normal familir's Link ability?Regarding Evolution Bond, you could have it simply grant the Evolved Familiar feat at 2nd and every other level? Unless you are wanting the familiar to choose 2-, 3-, and 4-point evolutions? If so, there needs to be some limitation to the choices allowed.
Could work in the summon monster ability as special hex, greater hex, and grand hex choices? How about a Hex that allows the Summon Monster I ability, usable Int mod per day only, not 3 + Cha mod like a Summoner. It increases by one level each time you choose the hex (max up to SM IV), but each hex would function on its own, essentially a SM I, SM II SM III, and SM IV hex. So she could choose to us SM III or SM II for a particular use, or just have it increase in power permanenetly. OR make the Hex usable 1/day plus 1/day for every 6 MCA levels (max 4/day)?
- Then a Major Hex of SM V usabe 1/day.
- And finally, have a SM VI Grand Hex usable 1/day, but the monsters are special somehow, such as remain for a number of 10 minute increments per level instead of 1 minute per level, or have it 1 minute per level per day and have the minutes not be consecutive, but count in 1 minute increments. Also, maybe allow the monsters as conduits, allowing the MCA to deliver her hexes through her monsters? Just an idea.Also, we could allow the MCA deliver touch hexes through her familiar, as well as touch spells?
Just some ideas.
1/ a day feels better on a 9th level caster, with increasing power just like other hexes.
I don't know if restrictions on the familiars evolutions are 100% necessary but I guess scaling back to 2 point evolutions tops is well in the safe area, maybe could get away with 3 pointers.
I do think monster conduits could get out of hand somehow with channeled hex's (probably elemental shenanigans and reach). Would having your summon experience hexes with a target of personally on the witch be broken? Sorta a share hex equivalent to share spells
Familiar though, I think touch hexes will be ok since it's a gamble every time you send them into combat (even enhanced improved familiars could be taken out).
#ADEPT SCOUNDREL:
isee what your saying that it needs fluff and its a tuffy
maybe we can work backwards on this.... what would be the most Iconic moment and PC for this MCA then with pc or moment distill the flavor from that
OK first three in the cue are
Twisted Pact Witch – Wtc/Sum (Toaster)
Silent Hunter – Rgr/Nnj (Browman)
Dimensional Samurai - Sam/Wiz (Alfray/Iorthol)#Twisted Pact Witch
What else Toaster? Any other ideas for the MCA? That's only 2 class feature swaps. What other Summoner class feature might suit the MCA? Bonded Senses? Something Shield Ally-esque? Maybe Life Link replacing the normal familir's Link ability?Regarding Evolution Bond, you could have it simply grant the Evolved Familiar feat at 2nd and every other level? Unless you are wanting the familiar to choose 2-, 3-, and 4-point evolutions? If so, there needs to be some limitation to the choices allowed.
Could work in the summon monster ability as special hex, greater hex, and grand hex choices? How about a Hex that allows the Summon Monster I ability, usable Int mod per day only, not 3 + Cha mod like a Summoner. It increases by one level each time you choose the hex (max up to SM IV), but each hex would function on its own, essentially a SM I, SM II SM III, and SM IV hex. So she could choose to us SM III or SM II for a particular use, or just have it increase in power permanenetly. OR make the Hex usable 1/day plus 1/day for every 6 MCA levels (max 4/day)?
- Then a Major Hex of SM V usabe 1/day.
- And finally, have a SM VI Grand Hex usable 1/day, but the monsters are special somehow, such as remain for a number of 10 minute increments per level instead of 1 minute per level, or have it 1 minute per level per day and have the minutes not be consecutive, but count in 1 minute increments. Also, maybe allow the monsters as conduits, allowing the MCA to deliver her hexes through her monsters? Just an idea.Also, we could allow the MCA deliver touch hexes through her familiar, as well as touch spells?
Just some ideas.
this MCA reminded me of a PRC from 3.5 that summoned "outer world"(aliens)monsters that when it summons any thing it can with extra add-ons like evolutions may be we can build up the "summoning hex" like that where you summon a monster that has the same evolutions as your Familiar or some thing. might be a cool place to take this one
So possible additions
1) Summon Monster hex (1/day, min level 4th; power increases every 3levels to max SM VI at say 19th?)
2) I'd say restriction to 1-point evolutions, then can choose 2-point evolutions beginning at 10th; can reassign the evolutions every level she gains an evo pointeven, as opposed to every level like a summoner.
3) Yeah hexes through monster could get ugly, but the "personal" shared hex idea could be fun, limit it to only 1 monster though, incase she summons nore than 1 lower elvel monster.
4) Touch hexes and even share hexes might be good.
EDIT: Plus what Kyras just said.
@Adept Scoundrel-
WAY too many skills being boosted with Skullduggery.
I'm liking the general idea of this guy, but I'm not sure about the balance... I'll think over it tonight.
How's this Toaster?
Witches of the twisted pact choose to draw their power from an outsider instead of their normal patron source, in a ritual resembling the one a summoner uses to form his bond. Such bonds always shift and mutate the familiar however, so many cease being recognizable from the creature they once were.
Primary Class: Witch.
Secondary Class: Summoner.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d6.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The twisted pact witch may select three summoner skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal witch class skills. The twisted pact witch gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The twisted pact witch is proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor interferes with a witch’s gestures, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.
Bound Familiar: At 1st level, a twisted pact witch gains Evolved Familiar as a bonus feat. At 3rd level, she gains Improved Familiar as a bonus feat, at which time she must choose an outsider as her familiar, but she ignores any alignment prerequisites for that outsider. Outsiders bound in this way change their alignment to match that of the twisted pact witch and lose any alignment subtypes they may have. This ability replaces the witches first level hex.
Witch’s Familiar: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name, except for the following changes.
Share Spells and Hexes: The twisted pact witch may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on herself. A twisted pact witch may cast spells on her familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast). In addition, whenever the twisted pact witch is affected by a hex that targets herself, her familiar also gains the effects. This otherwise functions as and replaces the familiar’s share spells ability.
Twisted Link (Su): The twisted pact witch has an empathic link with her familiar to a 1 mile distance. The twisted pact witch can communicate empathically with the familiar, but cannot see through its eyes. Because of the link's limited nature, only general emotions can be shared. The master has the same connection to an item or place that his familiar does. Whenever the familiar takes enough damage to reduce it to 0 hit points of lower, the twisted pact witch can sacrifice any number of hit points. Each hit point sacrificed in this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the familiar. This can prevent the familiar from becoming unconscious or dying.
In addition, the familiar must remain within 100 feet of the twisted pact witch one another for the familiar to remain at full strength. If the familiar is beyond 100 feet but closer than 1,000 feet, its current and maximum hit point totals are reduced by 50%. If the familiar is more than 1,000 feet away but closer than 10,000 feet, its current and maximum hit point totals are reduced by 75%. If the familiar is more than 10,000 feet away, it immediately becomes unconscious. Current hit points lost in this way are not restored when the familiar gets closer to its twisted pact witch, but its maximum hit point total does return to normal. This ability otherwise functions as and replaces the familiar’s empathic link ability.
Deliver Touch Spells and Hexes (Su): If the twisted pact witch is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for her. If the twisted pact witch and the familiar are in contact at the time the twisted pact witch casts a touch spell, she can designate her familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the twisted pact witch would. As usual, if the twisted pact witch casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates. In addition, a familiar can also deliver any hex with a requirement of “touch” as if it were the twisted pact witch. This otherwise functions as and replaces the familiar’s deliver touch spells ability.
Evolving Bond: Starting at 2nd level, the inherent corruption within a twisted pact witch’s familiar begins to grow, intensifying the bond between them. At 2nd level and every two levels thereafter, a twisted pact witch’s familiar gains 1 additional evolution point that is added to its total. However, the familiar is restricted to 1-point evolutions. At 10th level, the familiar can select 2-point evolutions. This ability otherwise functions as the Eidolons evolution pool, and replaces the witch’s patron.
Hex: This is exactly like the witch’s ability of the same name, except that the twisted pact witch may select the following new hex, and is restricted to the Twisted Pact Witch multiclass archetype.
Summoning Hex (Su): The twisted pact witch c an cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability once per day. She can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). For every 5 twisted pact witch levels she has attained (5th, 10th, etc.), the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IV at 20th level). The twisted pact witch must be at least 2nd level to select this hex.
Twisted Summoning (Su): Starting at 6th level, whenever a twisted pact witch casts the summon monster spells or uses the summoning hex, her monsters gain a 1-point evolution of her choice until the end of the summoning. At 12th level, her summoned monsters gain a number of evolutions totaling 2 evolution points. At 18th level, her summoned monsters can gain a number of evolutions totaling 3 evolution points. This ability replaces the hex gained at 6th level.
Life Bond (Su): At 14th level, a twisted pact witch life becomes linked to his familiar’s. As long as the familiar has 1 or more hit points, the twisted pact witch is protected from harm. Damage in excess of that which would reduce the twisted pact witch to fewer than 0 hit points is instead transferred to the familiar. This damage is transferred 1 point at a time, meaning that as soon as the familiar is reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to its Constitution score, all excess damage remains with the twisted pact witch.
Effects that cause death but not damage are unaffected by this ability. This ability does not affect spells like baleful polymorph, flesh to stone, or imprisonment, or other spells that do not cause actual damage. This ability replaces the hex gained at 14th level.
Table: Twisted Pact Witch
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Bound familiar, cantrips, witch’s familiar 3 1 — — — — — — — —
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Evolving bond, hex 4 2 — — — — — — — —
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 4 2 1 — — — — — — —
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Hex 4 3 2 — — — — — — —
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 4 3 2 1 — — — — — —
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Twisted summoning 4 3 3 2 — — — — — —
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 4 4 3 2 1 — — — — —
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Hex 4 4 3 3 2 — — — — —
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — — —
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Hex, major hex 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — — —
11th +5 +3 +3 +7 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — — —
12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Hex 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — — —
13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 — —
14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 Life bond 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 — —
15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 —
16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 Hex 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 —
17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Hex, grand hex 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 2
19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Hex 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
well that definitely works
@Adept Scoundrel-
WAY too many skills being boosted with Skullduggery.
I'm liking the general idea of this guy, but I'm not sure about the balance... I'll think over it tonight.
#Adept Scoundrel
I agree and disagree. Although a boost to all those at once is OP, I think gaining that boost to one of the skills at 1st level and an additional skill at 5th, 11th, and 17th level would work. This ability is replacing abilities at 1st, 5th, 11h, and 17th level.So how's this instead. Same result, but spread over 17 levels.
Skullduggery: At 1st level, an adept scoundrel gains a bonus equal to half her adept scoundrel level (minimum +1) on one of the following skills: Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, or Sleight of Hand checks. At 5th level and every six levels thereafter, she gains the same bonus to one additional skill of her choice from the list above. This ability replaces trapfinding and sneak attack +3d6, +6d6, and +9d6.
I think the other abilities balance just fine, as they all swap one ability themselves (including each performance).
Shameless plug, but I would like feedback from our current gang of threadmongers on my new Artificer class, as I think between all of you, I'd get a diverse and well-rounded bunch of comments, tweaks, and suggestions to make it even better.
#Twisted Pact Witch
I'll leave it to Toaster for tomorrow. If he thinks his MCA is good to go, he can give his OK and Browman can post his Silent Hunter, as I'll be out of commission for much of the day. That way, things don't slow down because of me.
New thread! [Looks around, sees new folks and wondrous new MCAs] Another day in paradise... Be back later with some feedback...
#TWISTED PACT WITCH
+5 i was going to build up some hex that mach this MCA that might also be taken by other witches but i going to need some sit down time with my book to build them up right and can be add later i will post them up as i finish them i was going to do 2-3
Yeesh, you guys move fast!
#TWISTED PACT WITCH
You realise the witch's familiar can already deliver hexes as written?
Deliver Touch Spells (Su)
If a witch is 3rd level or higher, her familiar can deliver touch spells or hexes for her. If the witch and the familiar are in contact at the time the witch casts a touch spell, she can designate her familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the witch would. As usual, if the witch casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates. If the witch activates a hex, her familiar can be used to make the touch. She does not have to be in contact with the familiar to use this ability.
Otherwise that all looks good.
#ADEPT SCOUNDREL
Does the Clever Opportunist ability work with the Outflank feat. If so that means I can gain +4 to hit, damage or AC. I'm assuming it's a free action to choose which benefit you want and you can choose at the start of each turn?
ok my hexs
hex 1
hex 2
Rebuild Rules Senses gains darkvision 60 ft.; Defensive Abilities gains DR and energy resistance as noted on the table; SR gains SR equal to new CR +5; Grotesque Form (Su): An Out-Wordier creature’s form is that of a horrible mass of tentacle (Or another appropriately gruesome form, as determined by the witch). Creatures receive a –1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against an Out-Wordier creature.
HD/Resist Acid-Electricity/DR
1-4/5/-
5-10/10/5magic
11+/15/10magic
#Twisted Pact Witch:
Looking good Toaster! And nice writeup El.
* Not sure I like the summon monster hex - I mean it is definitely a bane/hex/bad thing, but less of an effect than a... summon. I know I know, it's a Witch/Summoner, but still. Never mind, I'll get over it.
I actually think it's a bit nerfed - once a day (and yes I see that this does currently progress), is a terrible hex choice at second level considering you don't get a hex at first level. I would like to see a greater number of uses/day - ok, sure some hexes are one offs, but for the most part they are spam. I think this should sit in the middle somewhere...
Alternatively you could give them some summon monster spells in their spell list....
* I like the Twisted Link and the evolution abilities (Evolving Bond and Twisted Summoning) are nice touches.
@Kyras' Hex ideas:
* I like the concept of the Twisted Face - feels very horror movie. Seems like it is just a fear effect though?
* Apart from my general reservation on the summoning hex, I also like the Summon Out-worlder idea - so it gains SR, grotesque form, resist acid and electricity and some DR. Hmm. Any reason on the acid and electricity?
# Adept Scoundrel:
Seems pretty basic. I don't really have much to add to the discussion. I agree with Raider that too many skills are being buffed, but I'm not sure your solution isn't killing the ability completely. Seems like it's my week to say "there must be a third path". Maybe a choice of two rather than one at each progression following the initial one? Perhaps too complex. I'd be taking the sneak attack every time over this...then again, I guess the idea is less combat focused.
Posting a concept for the queue:
Rampant Iconoclast (working title) - Barquisitor
Primary Barbarian
Secondary Inquisitor
Rage and judgment mashed together for new Wrath ability - rage powers mixed/tweaked/shaken and stirred with judgments
Swaps out:
- fast movement for stern gaze
- uncanny dodge for cunning initiative
- trap sense 1/2/3 for solo tactics
- imp. uncanny dodge and damage reduction for bane
more to come later.... :)
I'd like to revise with you my paladin/inquisitor (Merciful Redeemer) and paladin/witch (Coven Champion).
I have some ideas yet to refine, too. Most of all:
Secret Sect Knight (Cavalier/Inquisitor: I know there's already one, but what I would like to do here is a "paladin for every alignment")
Barefoot Friar (Monk/Inquisitor)
Chosen Apostle (Cleric/Oracle: basically, the divine version of an Absolute Arcanist)
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I had a couple of concepts for purely 1st-party classes, and a few that involve 3rd-party. I'll hold off on posting the 3rd-party things until Elghinn or someone else confirms that those are okay in the new thread.
Wilderness Embodiment (Druid/Monk, has a ki pool that is shares with its animal companion, which can be used to assume a "were" form where they gain natural attacks and the abilities of animals.)
Succumbed Soldier (Fighter/Druid, can take on animalistic properties without changing shape in a way that is kind of like a Rage, but allows customization based on the animal chosen.)
Oh, question: if there's an alternate class feature for a class (not an archetype, just one feature) that causes it to function noticeably differently, but said feature is third-party, would it be possible to make an MCA incorporating that feature. I'm specifically referring to the censures and condemnations from Divine Favor: The Inquisitor by Kobold Press. Thank you for any answers to any of these questions!
#Adept Scoundrel
I would rarely consider this for play because of the loss of trapfinding. I can live with reduced sneak attack, though. I would like to toss out the idea that the trapfinding (essentially a bonus to two skills, right? I'm not looking at my books atm) be replaced with a more flexible form plus later bonuses.
I'm thinking that you could include the Perception vs. traps bonus as an option in Skullduggery (a general bonus to Perception is too much, I think) and allow two selections when the ability is gained. This would allow someone wanting the trapfinding ability in this MCA would have that option. Later bumps to other skills to offset the reduction to sneak attacks seems fair, but I'm not sure about a sudden +halflevel to a skill isn't a little strong.
By the way, thanks for letting me toss my two cents in. I have a lot of respect for the time and energy you all put into this. I can't manage that, but I like knowing I can bring up something and not get shouted off the thread for daring to do so.
@AinvarG
Feedback is always welcome. Not much shouting goes on here.
#Adept Scoundrel
Maybe a list of skills (including the trapfinding) to choose for the 1/2 level bonus at 1st, then at 5th/11th/17th choose another skill and gain a 1/4 level bonus to the skill chosen, or a flat +4?
@Lindley Court
We really don't want to incorporate 3rd Party stuff into these, since they are Pathfinder Core and Base classes. That said, you could always start another thread for 3rd party, I know others were alos keen on that. Just make sure you plainly state that the stuff is based on the MCA concept, but not necessarily "sanctioned" by us as we want to staty Core/Base class pure as possible. This stuff is OGL afterall, and is free for anyone to dither with, just not on out officion MCA threads. :D
We'd likely pop in to offer advice now and then though.
OK, won't see me until later tonight guys.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I had a couple of concepts for purely 1st-party classes, and a few that involve 3rd-party. I'll hold off on posting the 3rd-party things until Elghinn or someone else confirms that those are okay in the new thread.
Wilderness Embodiment (Druid/Monk, has a ki pool that is shares with its animal companion, which can be used to assume a "were" form where they gain natural attacks and the abilities of animals.)
Succumbed Soldier (Fighter/Druid, can take on animalistic properties without changing shape in a way that is kind of like a Rage, but allows customization based on the animal chosen.)
Oh, question: if there's an alternate class feature for a class (not an archetype, just one feature) that causes it to function noticeably differently, but said feature is third-party, would it be possible to make an MCA incorporating that feature. I'm specifically referring to the censures and condemnations from Divine Favor: The Inquisitor by Kobold Press. Thank you for any answers to any of these questions!
Hi Lindley!
If you wanted to incorporate something like the Censures and Condemnations from Kobold's Divine Favor line, that would be fine as long as you include the text of those abilities in your MCA. If we put it in a PDF, we could then reprint the rules text and cite them as the original source. As long as we're not putting something in that says "See this other third-party product for mechanics" I think it would be fine to incorporate good third-party rules.IMHO,
Tyler
#Twisted Pact Witch:
@Kyras' Hex ideas:
* I like the concept of the Twisted Face - feels very horror movie. Seems like it is just a fear effect though?
* Apart from my general reservation on the summoning hex, I also like the Summon Out-worlder idea - so it gains SR, grotesque form, resist acid and electricity and some DR. Hmm. Any reason on the acid and electricity?
*yes it is more or less like sleep its kinda op because it does not have a hd limit but don't think it needs one as long as it has the hex dc
*plagiarism mostly "Complete Arcane" had the PRC i was talking about and i want to try and pull something from it so i simplified the template and made the hex similar to the summon undead feat i did not feel the need to change its lesser resist most outsiders have 3 if i had to add one it would be sound, only because his first 2 are off the wall from what is normal
Olfacter (working title) cant find the name of some one who studies smells
Primary Alchemist
Secondary Bard
every thing will be smell based threw perfumes, colones, and musk
Swaps out:
- Alchemy> Versatile Performance
- Bombs> Inspire Courage
- Poison Use> sent
- Poison Resistance> gas mask maybe
- Swift Poisoning> Smoke Bomb
- Poison Immunity> Stink Bomb
- Instant Alchemy> Poison Bomb
@Lindley Court
What Cartmanbeck said Lindley.
#Twisted Pact Witch:
Looking good Toaster! And nice writeup El.
* Not sure I like the summon monster hex - I mean it is definitely a bane/hex/bad thing, but less of an effect than a... summon. I know I know, it's a Witch/Summoner, but still. Never mind, I'll get over it.
I actually think it's a bit nerfed - once a day (and yes I see that this does currently progress), is a terrible hex choice at second level considering you don't get a hex at first level. I would like to see a greater number of uses/day - ok, sure some hexes are one offs, but for the most part they are spam. I think this should sit in the middle somewhere...
Alternatively you could give them some summon monster spells in their spell list....
* I like the Twisted Link and the evolution abilities (Evolving Bond and Twisted Summoning) are nice touches.
@Kyras' Hex ideas:
* I like the concept of the Twisted Face - feels very horror movie. Seems like it is just a fear effect though?
* Apart from my general reservation on the summoning hex, I also like the Summon Out-worlder idea - so it gains SR, grotesque form, resist acid and electricity and some DR. Hmm. Any reason on the acid and electricity?
These thoughts are indead worth mulling over, especially the added summon spells(they are 9th level casters after all)
@Kyras love the template (and the psudonatural template its based on) as well as the other hex, although it makes me consider a ramification of applying that template and resistance evolutions. Should they be allowed to grant a resistance to a summons elemental weakness, like resist cold to a fire elemental.
to tell the truth i don't know if the witch can summon with out the MCA if so i would have this be one hex and the Evolutions be a different none stacking hex. and it might be a good idea to add a line about no outsiders can be summoned with my out-worldlier hex the idea of a twisted Imp not so bad but a fire elemental would work
Good point Kyras - you have focused my basic concern with a Summoning Hex - creating a Summoning Hex could wreak havoc if open to all Witches. Although this one is still seriously nerfed as I said upthread...
#Twisted Pact Witch
The normal witch gains the entire Summon Monster retinue (I to IX) in her spell list. So, the hex should be for a longer period (1 minute per level like a summoner) but max at a far lower level, like 6th.
Another option is this:
Hex
Summoning (Sp): The twisted pact witch can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability. She can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). The power of the hex increases by one one spell level to summon monster II at 4th level, and to summon monster III at 7th level, allowing her to summon more powerful creatures. The twisted pact witch can use this hex once per day, plus an additional time per day for every six twisted witch levels she has attained (6th, 12th, and 18th level).
Major Hex
Greater Summoning (Sp): The power of the twisted pact witch's summoning hex increases. She can cast summon monster IV as a spell-like ability. At 14th level, this improves to summon monster V. The twisted pact witch must have the summoning hex to select this major hex.
Grand Hex
Warped Summoner (Sp): The twisted pact witch becomes a master at summoning creatures gruesome creatures from other planes. The power of her summoning hex increases by one spell level to monster summon VI. Any creature summoned using the Warped Summoner grand hex gains
a number of evolutions totaling 4 evolution points. She can chose from any 1- or 2-point evolutions. The twisted pact witch must have the greater summoning hex to select this grand hex.
@Out-Worlder Hex
I don't really like it. I think the template is OP to be added to a summoned creature. Summoned creatures tend to have the celestial or fiendish templates already, then adding another template can make things a bit crazy to keep track of.
@Twisted Face
I like this one though. Good and flavorful.
Yeesh, you guys move fast!
#TWISTED PACT WITCH
You realise the witch's familiar can already deliver hexes as written?
Deliver Touch Spells (Su)
If a witch is 3rd level or higher, her familiar can deliver touch spells or hexes for her. If the witch and the familiar are in contact at the time the witch casts a touch spell, she can designate her familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the witch would. As usual, if the witch casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates. If the witch activates a hex, her familiar can be used to make the touch. She does not have to be in contact with the familiar to use this ability.
CRAP! OK, we don't have to alter that one. :D
# Twisted Pact Witch
@ Elghinn - ah yes.
* Summon monster spell(s) is already on the regular witch spell list. I think the duration extension is a good idea.
* I still think the summon hex is
a) useless considering the number per day compared to a more spammable hex - at 5th level she can use Summon Hex to summon monster II once per day.
b) a dangerous precedent for regular witches, somewhat ameliorated by its basic uselessness... ;)
Alter both of those considerations, or the swaps and I'll be happier. ;)
How about Diminished Spellcasting for a partial progression of the summoners Summon Monster ability?
Adept Scpoundrel
I think I've solved the Skullduggery ability issue.
1) leave Trapfinding at 1st elvel. IT really does fit well with the MCA.
2) Add the following as the Skullduggery ability.
Skullduggery: At 5th level, an adept scoundrel’s skill at deception and underhandedness increases. He may select a type of terrain from Table: Ranger Favored Terrains. The adept scoundrel gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Disguise, Escape Artist, and Sleight of Hand skill checks made when she is within this terrain.
At 11th level, and again at 17th level, an adept scoundrel may select an additional favored terrain. In addition, at each such interval, the skill bonus in any one favored terrain (including the one just selected, if so desired), increases by +2.
If a specific terrain falls into more than one category of favored terrain, the adept scoundrel’s bonuses do not stack; she simply uses whichever bonus is higher. This ability replaces sneak attack +3d6, +6d6, and +9d6.
*Another option would be to restrict it to Urban terrains only, but I think as an "Adept" scoundrel, she should be able to choose where she is good at these vaious skills.
How about Diminished Spellcasting for a partial progression of the summoners Summon Monster ability?
Hm, that may just be the best approach. Diminished Spellcasting, then give the Summon Monster I ability at at 1st, then increasing it at 3rd, 7th, 9th, 13th, 15th, and 19th, to a max of Summon Monster VII at 19th.
Then we could then remove the hex and major hex, and just have the Warped Summoner grand hex like this.
Warped Summoner (Sp): The twisted pact witch becomes a master at summoning gruesome creatures from other planes. Creatures summoned by casting a summon monster spell or using her summon monster ability gains a number of evolutions totaling 4 evolution points. She can chose from any 1- or 2-point evolutions listed in the Evolutions section of the Summoner's Eidolon description. In addition, whenever the twisted pact witch uses her summon monster ability, she can expend two uses of the ability to increase the power of the ability by one level to summon monster VIII, or four uses to increase it to summon monster IX.
Still coincides with the Twisted Summoning ability.
Then she'd look like this.
Table: Twisted Pact Witch
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Bound familiar, cantrips, summon monster I, 2 0 — — — — — — — —
witch’s familiar
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Evolving bond, hex 3 1 — — — — — — — —
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Summon monster II 3 1 0 — — — — — — —
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Hex 3 2 1 — — — — — — —
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 3 2 1 0 — — — — — —
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Twisted summoning 3 2 2 1 — — — — — —
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 Summon monster III 3 3 2 1 0 — — — — —
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Hex 3 3 2 2 1 — — — — —
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 Summon monster IV 3 3 3 2 1 0 — — — —
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Hex, major hex 3 3 3 2 2 1 — — — —
11th +5 +3 +3 +7 3 3 3 3 2 1 0 — — —
12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Hex 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 — — —
13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Summon monster V 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 0 — —
14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 Life bond 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 — —
15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 Summon monster VI 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 0 —
16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 Hex 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 —
17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 0
18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Hex, grand hex 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1
19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Summon monster VII 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2
20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Hex 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
#Twisted Pact Witch
I like this latest version a lot more - much less complicated and relies on existing mechanics - however I find the summon SLA's 2/4/2/4/2/4 progression disconcerting, I guess that is to fit in with hexes, twisted summoning etc. Even if you went every 3 levels after 3rd you'd still get dead levels... Grrr. Whouf. OSW's brain hurts.
#Adept Scoundrel:
@Elghinn
I really don't like the favored terrain stuff at all ever. That's my bias though. ;) I don't even get why the AS should have a favored terrain*.
Now a kind of stealth focus mantra or performance/state/trance along the lines of the inspire competence the AS already gets I can see thematically..., just not a Ranger ability.
* I understand it from an Urban terrain point of view, but as you say El, there should be choice...
I had thought of just granting the +2 bonus to the listed skills flat out without terrain needing to be chosen, then increase it to +4 and +6 at 11th and 17th, but thought it was OP. Unless we can figure out some cother restriction as to what circumstances grant the bonus? That's really the only reason I used terrains, because it gave parameters to when the bonus would be granted.
SO, if someone has a good idea on that, or if others think the bonus ISN'T OP (ultimately a universal +6 to 4 skill checks without restriction), we can finish that particular ability.
Maybe she gains a +2 to all listed skills at 5th. At 11th he can select 2 of them and gain an additional +2 to them. Then at 17th he could od the same, essentially allowing him to increase his bonuses to certain skills as she sees fit?
So, she'd have a +2 to Bluff, Disguise, Escape Artist, and Sleight of hand at 5th.
Then at 11th she choses to increase her Bluff and Disguise (Bluff +4, Disguise +4, Escape ARtist +@, Sleight of Hand +2)
Finally at 17th she elects to increase Bluff again, and Sleight of Hand (Bluff +6, Disguise +4, Escape Artist +2, Sleight of Hand +4). Or We can simply have her choose 2 at 5th to increase initially ainstead of all of them gaining a +2?
Any other skills that would fit the Skullduggery theme we should add? Acrobatics? Stealth? Sense Motive?
Thoughts?
#Adept scoundrel
I had a thought about skullduggery as well what if we added umd, paired them off(umd with disable device, bluff with disguise, sleight with escape artist), and did something similar to how favored enemy works with scaling. One could select a pair and start at +2, and later on select an additional pair for another +2and increase one of the their selections to +4 and so on.
#Twisted Binder that does work alot better but my earlier concern is still valid. Should we allow creatures with an elemental weakness to pick up a corresponding immunity through evolutions?