I spent a few hours reading every single thread about stealth and I am still confused. My main question is this:
1) if someone goes behind cover and successfully stealths. Then someone else moves to be in direct line of sight to them, or even right next to them. Are they still stealthed? Or is it broken once anyone can see their square?
2) how do you handle a surprise when someone is aware of some, but not all of their attackers.
Here is a simplified example from the game I just DM'd of enemies trying to stealth to ambush the players, and I'm not really sure how all the rules work for this situation..
2 monsters: Monster A and Monster B hear the players being loud in the next room so decide to ambush them when they come inside. They hide behind columns and use stealth.
Two players finish the loud combat in the next room and carefully open the door to the ambush room. Player A and Player B enter..
First initiative is rolled. Order: Player A, Player B, Monster A, Monster B.
Next, the players roll perception. Player B perceives nobody. Player A perceives just ONE monster (Monster A), but nobody perceives monster B.
So surprise round, what happens?
-Both monsters get to go because they knew the players were coming.
-Player B perceived nobody so he definitely is surprised and doesn't go.
-However what about player a? Who perceived SOME of the threats ?
-I ruled that he was not surprised, but I did not place the stealthed Monster B that he didn't seek onto the map..
So surprise round begins... Player A goes first.. Seeing only one threat he moves and moves to the *exact* spot that the stealthed Monster B was
What happens?
-Is the player told "something is in your way" ? And the monster gets an AoO?
-Is the monster revealed as soon as he enters LoS?
- should this never have happened and the stealthed monster should have been the only thing acting in the surprise round?
1: If some one looks into the square that some one is stealthing in, he gets to roll perception as normal. I'm quite sure RAW doesn't pay heed to whether or not you look into a square or not.
2: If they spot creature A only creature B gets the surprise round, A goes into the iniitiative order as always. So the player wont even get a chance to move into B's square since B gets the surprise round.
In the event some one enters a square with the stealther, treat it as AoO since he moves first into a threatend square and then attempts to move on. Thus allowing the monster to emerge from hiding and attack.
Remember RAW can't account for everything, so some common sense is needed.
Obviously a Large Ogre wont get to be all Ninja, while some one looks straight at it, unless the grass is REALLY tall or it has some special equipment.
2 monsters: Monster A and Monster B hear the players being loud in the next room so decide to ambush them when they come inside. They hide behind columns and use stealth.
Two players finish the loud combat in the next room and carefully open the door to the ambush room. Player A and Player B enter..
First initiative is rolled. Order: Player A, Player B, Monster A, Monster B.
Next, the players roll perception. Player B perceives nobody. Player A perceives just ONE monster (Monster A), but nobody perceives monster B.
For the surprise round, Player A perceived a threat so he can act, Player B did no so he cannot. Therefore, Monsters A and B can both act in the surprise round and so can Player A, the only person who cannot act in the surprise round is player B. That one is pretty straight forward: If you detect _a threat_ you can act in the surprise round, you don't need to perceive _all the threats._ (1)
For stealth, the way the rules work are that if you have concealment at the start of your turn you can stealth. Then you can go anywhere, LOS or not, and as long as you end your turn with concealment (and don't do something to break stealth like attack or cast a spell) you can keep stealth. I'm not 100% sure how actions of other characters outside of your turn affect things on their turn: If they end their turn in a position where you do not have concealment, you won't be able to stealth on your next turn. Previously, I've seen it ruled that the other character sees you as soon you no longer have concealment. Since the update to stealth rules, though, I think I would rule that they don't see you on their turn; you'll have stealth until the start of _your_ turn.
However, you aren't invisible. So if something happens that causes you to interact with the other character like them trying to move through your square, I'd rule that they detect you and you no longer have stealth from them. In this case, I'd say Player A notices Monster B when he tries to enter B's square. If Monster B has combat reflexes, allowing him to take an AoO before he's acted, and if player A's movement before he tried to go through Monster B's square provoked, he'd get an AoO. But I don't know that I would personally give Monster B an AoO for player A trying to move through his square, I'd probably stop player A right before he tried to enter that square and let him know it's occupied. (If Monster B were invisible, that would qualify for an AoO from trying to move through an occupied square.)
I don't know of any explicit rules on when stealthy characters are detected and what happens when you try to move through a stealthed creature's square. This is just my musing.
(1) You aren't surprised if you notice _any_ threats, otherwise you could run into a situation where Player A notices Monster A and Player B notices Monster B. If you were surprised by the monsters you didn't perceive, Monster A would get a surprise round against Player B but not Player A, and Monster B would get the surprise round against Player A but not B. There's no way to do that mechanically.
Although I could see multiple separate groups of enemies needing to be detected separately: Say you have bandits laying in ambush on both sides of the road. The bandits on one side of the road do a "bad" job of hiding and the PCs see them and charge. When the PCs get to a certain point, suddenly the second group ambushes them from behind because the PCs didn't make their perception checks to find the real ambush. But this type of situation would have to be intentionally designed, not your normal encounter.
I could tell you how I run things, but I dunno how well it meshes with RAW. You may consider them or, if you absolutely require rules-compliance, simply pass them over for posts with better justification.
1) I run it such that a character MUST maintain a stealth-enabling condition (such as cover or concealment) to keep stealth. As an exception, when they begin and end their turn with stealth conditions, a successful stealth check allows them to maintain stealth even without stealth conditions as long as the hidden creature doesn't end their stealth with an attack. However, once their turn is over, if all of the conditions that allow the hidden creature to attempt stealth are removed, then the stealth fails. It makes no difference whether a darkness spell ends and all concealment is removed, an enemy casts glitterdust, see invisibility, lights a torch to see clearly, or walks around the only obstruction between itself and the hidden creature.
2) I agree with how you run it. My preference is that a creature does not need to detect ALL of his opponents to act in the surprise round; rather, a creature only needs to be aware than an opponent is in the area in order to prevent a surprise round.
I also agree with the character not being aware of the creature that it failed to detect until said creature is revealed through its actions or the actions of others. Not placing it on the board is just fine.
In the case of moving into the creature's square, it depends on the circumstances. If the creature was only hiding behind a pillar, then I would reveal the creature when the moving character negated all of its stealth conditions.
On the other hand, if it could keep all its stealth conditions throughout the moving character's actions (perhaps it is hidden behind a pillar in an area of shadow), then it would remain hidden with a successful stealth check. This is a really hairy situation and I suggest you think it through carefully and/or carefully avoid it coming up.
Moving into the square of a hidden creature, Analysis and issues:
A GM has to decide how legal the movement is (whether the hidden creature is aware of the invading creature, whether the movement is legal, and whether the creature can / will permit the movement).
[I]
If the hidden creature is also unaware of the moving creature (perhaps they are both stealthed), then it obviously cannot perform an AoO even if it would otherwise be entitled to one, and the GM may decide that it is not able to prevent the invading creature from entering its square. This may short-circuit elements of future steps.
[II]
Here the GM determines if the movement is legal. The RAW is clearer on this: You cannot normally pass through the square of an enemy creature. There are exceptions (one of you are Tiny, Helpless, or at least three size categories smaller than the other). Outside of that, you must tumble, or perform a combat maneuver (Bull Rush, Overrun) to get through their square.
Therefore, a GM is justified in ruling that a character cannot move through a hidden creature's square with normal movement. There are cloudy particulars to this, of course -- choose the answers for the following questions:
IIQ1. Since exiting your square and entering the square of an enemy with normal movement is not legal, do you ever actually leave your square, and if not, do you provoke an AoO for attempting to leave it?
IIQ2. When moving through a hidden creature's square fails, does it consume or end any of your movement?
However, a GM could deviate from or expand on this 'not legal' ruling. For example, a GM might rule that a character moving through an invisible enemy's square attempts a bull rush or overrun unintentionally. However, it opens up strange follow-up questions like "does this expend my standard action?" and "as an attack, would this break my stealth or invisibility?"
It is also possible that this would cause headaches when a hidden creature attempts to enter the square (and possibly end its turn) in the square of another hidden creature.
[III]
Now the GM decides if the creature can, and would, prevent the character from entering.
The RAW could be fairly clear; as above, normal movement is not permitted, but combat maneuvers enable movement. Yet once again, a GM could deviate and change rules to simulate more realistically. If legal, many invisible or stealthed creatures would freely allow creatures to move through their square freely (without being attacked or having their movement stopped).
As a word of warning, however, this could result in creatures moving into the square of hidden creatures and ending their turn there. The RAW is fairly clear; a creature that ends its turn in an illegal square is ejected to the last legal square it occupied, or the closest legal square. Simulationist GMs may find this rule unsatisfactory (why does stopping in the square of somebody you can't detect throw you out?), but if they allow it, it causes ever-more rule issues.
