Can retraining be used to make a character that could NOT be built from the ground up?

[KainPen]

blahpers wrote:

The problem with the original rulings was that while a single prestige class couldn't be used to meet the requirements of that prestige class, one prestige class could still, post-FAQ, be used to meet the requirements of a second prestige class, and vice versa. This allowed the two prestige classes to bootstrap each other, resulting in the same sort of "exploit" the FAQ tried to prevent.

Please give me and example and I will show you in every one that it can't be done, because of update number 2. adding a 2nd prestige class does not matter. Because the moment you get rid of the base class you are going to lose the requirement you need for the first prestige class via update 2. making the 2nd one not an option of taking. Update 2 prevents all possible boot strapping. update 3 again was unnecessary because it is not possible to abuse because of update 1 and 2 together.

the 1st Prc is always going to be dependent on base class levels and the 2nd will depend on them as well.

[jlighter]

Here's one. Rogue 3/Wizard 4/Cleric 3/Arcane Trickster 2/MT 3. The relevant ability is Arcane Spellcasting. At level 10, the character has Sneak Attack +2d6, 2nd level arcane spells, 2nd level divine spells. He takes Arcane Trickster 2. He's now Arcane Caster 6. He takes MT 1. He's now Arcane Casting 6. He retrains Wizard 4 into MT 2. He can because he still meets the requirements for AT and MT. He stays arcane caster 6. Then he retrains Wizard 3 into MT. He can because he still qualifies for MT because of AT. Take away Wizard 3, he's still arcane caster 5. But wait, you say, he doesn't qualify for AT. He does, though, because of MT, which keeps his caster level up.

Alternately, Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Rogue 3/Eldritch Knight 2. At level 12, he takes AT 1. He retrains Wizard 5 into AT 2. It allows him to keep his qualifications for EK. He does the same with Wizard 4. At this point, he gets 3 caster levels from Wizard, 3 from AT, and one from EK. He could retrain Wizard 3 into EK 3. He'd still have the requisite caster level to qualify for EK 1 through AT, and for AT through EK 2.

[KainPen]

you cant change out the wizard because when you do you drop to caster level 5 losing the ability to it does not matter that that MT give you 1 casting level because the 2nd updated does not allow you to add it.

Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class. (caster level is one of those rule elements) you can't add it it because you do not quality for that prestige class the moment you lose the original base class.

The 2nd one is perfectly fine the point up to level you can't retrain wizard 3 because AT is dependent on wizard 3 per the FAQ update 1 and 2. the moment you retrain wizard 4 you lose access to AT which then cause lose access to EK.

"No.
The retraining rules say, "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again." Therefore, if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class, you no longer have access to the class features from that prestige class, and therefore can't use that prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself)."

This one is telling the moment you lose the qualification you lose everything that goes with it.

again update number 2

Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.
this one kills the ability for of them to constantly feed off each other. because you can't use the spell casting class from either one to qualify to meet each other requirements, this one is making you have have the minimum base class allowed. you can never get rid of it.

I am sure you can come up with something strange with SLA faq and race that allows early access to PrC, but that is still a legit build because of the SLA faq allows early access to the PrC anyway.

the 3rd update is still not need. All it does is prevent you from genrateing a character you could have genrated from ground 1.

you example with Fighter 1/Wizard 3/Rogue 3/Eldritch Knight 2/AT 2 is a perfectly building able character. not the strongest character in the world but build able

level 1 fighter
level 2 Wizard
level 3 Wizard
Level 4 Wizard
Level 5 Rouge
level 6 Rouge
Level 7 Rouge
level 8 AT
Level 9 AT
level 10 you can final take EK because you now have the ability to cast 3rd level spells
ect.
you could never get rid of any of the levels before 7 because both the PrC are dependent on them. well you can get rid of them but all your PrC lose all their ability if you do as well as your hp, BAB saves ect.

[James Risner]

Gauss wrote:

"Your character must be legal for the level you retrain it. Your character must also be legal for all subsequent levels after the level you retrain it."?

Because there would be countless threads debating for hundreds of messages on exactly whether or not a Hellnight 6 with no other class levels is now legal. Very subjective language like "must be legal" doesn't tell us how to evaluate if it is legal.

They needed two updates to close the holes the first was supposed to close. In other words, when they made the FAQ they thought they covered the retrain all levels into a PrC was covered. People still interpreted ways around it. They posted update 2 and people still continued, until finally update 3 nailed the coffin so shut there is no way to open it.

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

You shouldn't consider "I can't exploit the new rule in a way it wasn't intended, as it was originally published" to be a "nerf."

/agree

[Pathfinder Design Team]

A ruling has been made. Thread closed to end bickering over irrelevant non-details (such as whether or not all loopholes were closed with the 1st or 2nd version of the FAQ).